Caster with Hydraulics

Not that I know of.

What about normal caters with brakes or push out stabilizing legs. (Mechanical action).

They have that sort of arrangement on hospital beds.

A small sub frame with the castors on which can pivot down on a foot operated lever, with some sort of latch or over centre mechanism.

Pencil and paper, cardboard, scissors, a couple of drawing pins (thumb tacks)...mug of tea/coffee...you should be able to work something out.

Del

There are 2 problems I see:

1. The Bar counter would need to be lifted evenly, or there will be broken glasses on the floor.
2. Hydraulics using a central pump, would not easily lift all casters the same height at the same time, but proportionally with each caster loading = More glasses etc at one end, the opposite end lifts higher.
3. Both the above could be overcome using proportioning valves.
   

If you had an electrical supply included, rechargeable battery powered for mobility, you could use small motors running screw thread jacks, which would get around the above hydraulic problems.....

A 1" lift at one end of a 12' bar is hardly going to spill/break anything, if you do the maths you will see it's only...errr...um...notverymuch

(I'm sure 1/2" - 1/4" would be plenty anyway? And I don't see why hydraulicsare necessary....mandraulic works fine ).

Del

Hi Del,

The Bar can also tip along the other axis.

I have seen bars loaded up with stacks of glasses several feet high.

Empty and upside down, ready to fill, as a display, larger than this picture:

Some of the stacks I have seen were large and circular, containing upside down wine glasses.

Have a few on me.....

Yup...but you have the two wheels at each narrow end on one sub frame, and the two at t'other end on a second subframe so it always tilts along the length ..just like the hosp' bed.

You obviously spent too much time looking at the nurses instead of studying the beds

Del

I actually had a hospital bed collapse beneath me, while waiting to go into the theatre for a major operation.

There was a lever at the foot end, for use in case of a "Code Blue", which was hospital code for heart failure.

I moved slightly upwards, there was a sickening lurch as the bed head crashed to the floor, pinning my head against the wall, between the bed head and the wall, with my feet some 5 feet in the air.

The others in the ward thought it was a great joke, and laughed uproariously, while I was in terrible pain in my neck (still not recovered properly after 10+ years).

Eventually I persuaded someone to press the Nurse call button, since I could not reach one, due to my present position.

It took 6 nurses to level the bed again, all laughing as they did so.

I discovered later that the air rams for that German designed bed, were insufficiently strong, and similar collapses had happened before.

Because of New Zealand's Accident Compensation Laws, it is not possible to sue for medical mishap, negligence, or accident.

Had that happened in the USA, a good Lawyer could have sued the Hospital and German designers, for $$$$$$$.

Here we just put up with it.....

Hi Spark Y

I have heard about a bed collapsing in the honeymoon room!

Have you taken x-rays or MR of your neck yet?

Hi Del.

Who the hell is going to be stupid enough to move a counter with stacks of glasses piled on it, surely they have the common sence to clear away the glasses first?

Spencer.

Presumably this guy's not going to want to start shoving the bar around in the middle of a heavy session, anyway(?).

Shouldn't be too hard for him to make sure everything's either stable or removed before jacking.

A similar system to that in Del's post #2 is used for shifting pool tables around. These can be free-standing trolleys with a built-in jacking mechanism, which is slid under the table when needed.

Maybe you could get a couple of these & build them into the bar? As has been said, you wouldn't need to lift both at the same time, as 1" up at one end wouldn't be a problem.

I am always thinking steppers. Steppers with mercury switches to keep it level .. (abort not green)

There was a nice add on TV recently of a moon buggy transforming into a bar. The wheels folded up to serve as bar chairs. I cant remember whether thy used steppers to fake hydraulics or the other way around.

"I am always thinking steppers" - so am I, but that's got to be OTT for this (?)

Do you remember what the ad was for? I can never remember the product - only the video. The 'ad' bit just doesn't seem to work on me (except Guinness ).

Some or other light beer !

They had the "bar" on display at the shopping centre. Not really capable of all the moves shown in the ad. One should never believe what you see on TV.

There is a dolly system called "Roll-Or-Kari" which is used to move pianos, organ consoles, and other such heavy objects. I used them fifty years ago. The company is still in business. http://www.nortechusa.com/rollorkr.htm

Even if this is not exactly what you want, it may give you a lever on your problem.

How about incorporating a couple of hand operated pallet trucks they are only about £99 each...should be easy to modify 'em ... or just look at one for inspiration?

Why make it so difficult, mount the whole bar on fixed height (but swivelling) casters, with as big a wheel diameter as possible and hide them behind a "skirt" that comes say withing 1 cm of the floor, so that they are not seen...they caster must have a locking mechanism to keep them locked when in use as a fixed bar.

If the bar is going to be very heavy, then use 6 or 8 of them....

Forget hydraulics etc....

Excellent point...(much as it grieves me to admit it )....you have simplified even more than me...and I think simplicity is the watchword of all good design..

The only simpler solution is ...leave the bar fixed and let the people go the bar...this arrangement works 100% in my experience......in fact it is difficult to prise some people away from it.

Del

K.I.S.S.?

When the bar starts moving it's usually time to go home .

This post should have replied to post 28.

Hello Andy, and thanks.

My concept does not mean I am averse to a totally non-hydraulic approach; in fact, that was my first thought when I first read the problem. (I suppose that IP's preference for hydraulics involves the relatively large force that can be applied by a relatively small fixture--not a bad idea considering the impact that any lifting devise might have on the bar's design.) I think we might agree that a more detailed description of IP's bar would have made it easier to come up with a bar portability concept. Whereas yours was to dispense with the hydraulic aspect (again, a sensibly simple approach), mine was, in effect, as much as possible to dispense with the built-in feature altogether; or to incorporate the rolling mechanism with as little impact on overall bar design and construction as possible. My concept had in mind something like the use of customized pallets as bases upon which the bar cabinet(s) it(them)self(s) could be constructed. Because the lifting mechanisms, the jacks themselves, would not (have to) be incorporated into the bar unit, no special provision would need to be made--other than slots for receiving the jack fingers--for stiffening the overall unit against tension and twisting stresses...such as would be the case if the bar was lifted just one corner at a time; or made to rest only on wobbly (i.e., caster) feet. Also, because a pallet jack lifts along a large surface and not at just one point, upward pressure is broadly distributed and evenly applied under the bar's framework. I do believe some kind of lifting and lowering mechanism--in contrast, your idea seems to be that the bar unit will rest permanently, and elevated, only on its casters (whether 4 in number or some multiple of 4)--is desirable, if only for aesthetics. Also, from the aesthetics point of view, under your concept it seems all casters would need to be permanently exposed, so that one could get to the wheel locking mechanisms and be able to actuate or release them. Another point: I am not convinced that locking the caster wheels would prevent the bar from moving, since locking the wheels would not prevent the casters from rotating about their pivots. You could wind up with a bar that wobbles and shifts as imbibers (in various states of equilibrium) lean against it at various points on the rail.

I agree that, in a caster-supported piece, the larger the wheels the better, up to a point... At the same time, it seems that using casters--supporting the long unit along with its plumbing, wiring, and bar service accoutrements at points instead of along the entire base perimeter(s)--will make it necessary to use considerably heftier wooden structural members, and very strong joinery, to prevent things like sagging and working loose of joints. These stiffening requirements would also add to the overall weight of the bar...making necessary even larger (or possibly more floor-damaging) caster wheels. It might be difficult in short order to come up with the correct trade offs between bar weight and caster number and sizes. Some have mentioned the wheel-supported steel stair steps: those which can be elevated slightly for moving and lowered onto feet for stair step climbing. That idea occurred to me also; and if a caster only approach was taken, it might be that the bar could consist of a steel framework supported on castered or uncastered wheels, to which wood fascia, shelves, and so on could be fastened...giving the outward appearance of a totally wooden bar. This approach could give the stiffness and strength required without the weight (per added strength) penalty of using wood alone. Cost would probably be another matter however.

So, in defense of the pallet jack idea I again offer that very little modification or special construction would be required apart from some rethinking of the construction of the base pedestals. It would be as if one simply lifted a bar onto two pallets, one at each end, and then conteplated how those pallets could be incorporated into the design of the base of a bar not yet built. And, if there was space for stowage of the jacks elsewhere on premises, even the built-in space for stowing the jack handles within the bar could be dispensed with. Another approach in which casters alone might be more feasible would be that of a sectional bar that could be joined and unjoined, respectively, for serving and for moving.

All in all, though, if I were advising IP's client I would attempt to persuade against the desirability of "overdesigning" the bar in favor of simply making the bar more accomodating to being readily moved. I would also see that approach as being much lower risk, from both an engineering design as well as business point of view.

Sorry if fatigue has made made this a bit clumsily worded; hope it was clear enough.

It is true that the wheels need to have room to swing, but good caster brakes lock both the position horizontally and the wheel itself. If 8 were used for example, you would not move the bar very easily, no more easily than the bar that just suíts there under its own weight, modern casters are excellent.

There would need to be a "skirt" on 3 sides( I mentioned that in my orginal post, you seem to have overlooked it) to cover the wheels at all times.....except from the rear of course, but remote cable operated wheel locks are also available for purists with too much money.

The hydraulic idea is totally rubbish for the following reasons alone, I am sure that I could find more if I had more time:-

1) Cost and weight and storage of the "other parts"

2) not good for amateurs, bar personal are not usually engineers....

3) think about maintenance needs every year or so.

4) What is if the oil leaks out and ruins expensive flooring, who pays?

5) What makes hydraulics better in any respect than what I have laid out, honestly, nothing!!! My version is simple, cannot get leaks, can be used by almost completely untrained persons.....

Counterpoints acknowledged. As to a pallet jack leaking, I personally have not seen that; and the jacks could be stowed in a utility area where floor damage was not a major consideration. No, I did not overlook your mention of skirting (fascia, kick boards, etc) to conceal the interior corner casters. I always take the view that the fewer the moving parts (such as linkage to inaccessible or barely accessible wheel locks) the better in terms of system integration (design), ease of use without injury, long-term reliability, diagnosis and repair of malfunctions, upkeep/preventative maintenance if needed...and such. For example, actuation cables and rods can stretch, kink, bend, loosen....

Let me repeat again, I see the whole idea of portability of a 12 foot wet bar--apart from being an exercise in conceptualization--as a bit silly; of course it was not stated why being able to move the bar (as if with no effort) was so important. Certainly simple cleaning does not justify the extra expense. If it's concealment (from teetotlers and innocents) certainly there are easier (and far cheaper) ways to accomplish that. The only rational reason I can think of would be that the floor space needs to be appropriated from time to time for another purpose. But that suggests that the bar will be totally self contained, with not permanent connections to utility services. But even in such a case, there are probably better answers than unrestricted bar portability as is implied by the initial question and by the answers posted--especiall caster wheels. I have suggested one, which is to make the bar sectional and capable of being broken down into manageable subunits--to be lifted and carried, slid on sliding feet pads, rolled on caster wheels, etc. Another might be to "mount" the bar near an anteroom into which the bar could be retracted on (not caster wheels but) rollers.

My final advise to the initial questioner, again, would be to consider whether or not his customer's "idea" is really practical, both from an engineering standpoint as well as from an afford-ability perspective. Doing good engineer's work can also include convincing a customer that there are better ideas; and that some (including whimsical) ideas are better left untried. If a customer insists against all good reasons to the contrary...one might be well advised to let the customer know that having it quickly will also mean having it at a far higher price (that price to include some form of indemnification against any unforeseen that might go wrong). And then there are cases--this could be one--where the risk becomes so uncertain that it's better to avoid being (professionally and legally) snared--better to let the customer bear the burden of finding someone else to tread the path of good intentions--possibly to that place where so many good intentions lead.

Above message posted by errant-clicking member. Apologies....

Uh oh! My completed login apparently didn't "take."

consider whether or not his customer's "idea" is really practical...

Well said..

What the customer wants, needs, and thinks he wants are three entirely different things.

Del

Andy,

On second thought (or is it third?), I do agree that your idea of (non-scuffing, weight distributing) caster wheels--probably no less than 8 to 12 for a 12-foot-long, single-unit bar--is the best approach...with one modification. There would be no mechanism to lock the wheels or to lift or lower the wheels. None. Instead, the bar would rest on the caster wheels just like with any other roll-able furniture piece. In conjunction with and close proximity to each wheel, a threaded-bolt adjustable foot--something like the levelers on a washing machine, or the center support on some bed frames--would be mounted under the bar. On those occasions when the bar needed to be moved, it would rest totally on the caster wheels--the feet would be retracted upward. To fix the bar in place for beverage service, each foot would be turned (screwed down) using a flat wrench to extend it downward, into contact with the floor, and a few turns more to raise the wheels slightly off the floor. As many additional feet could be fitted as desired to achieve the load support needed.

This is the best of all solutions because the bar is optimally supported while it is in use; and the wheels bear no weight during the far greater intervals during which they are not in use. Simple, foolproof, reliable. Easily maintainable. Readily available--off the shelf. Cheap. No special design work required. No impact on the appearance of the bar since the foot adjustment spaces required would be so small as to not be noticeable. And, no significant accommodation, if any, in the height dimension of the bar would need to be planned.

I think we've found it. ??

You have added the sugar coating to my cake! A perfectly thought out idea that would (though you did not mention it) also take out any unevenness of the floor or if the floor is not quite exactly level!

A Bubble level gauge for both directions could be added easily set in the middle in a lower counter even....to help get it on an even keel each time!

Many thanks for your excellent and safe contribution of ideas to the whole concept.

Its a point that I should have thought of anyway as that is how heavy computer cabinets are installed generally! Done it 1000s of times, I expect there is a company or two around that make the metal feet on a thick threaded rod, for little money!! Even with a rubber or similar bottom to stop scratches etc....easy to make if not.....

Teamwork!

Thanks. I like to think of it as adding the "leavening"!

Edit: The sugar would be after the prototype, when gears are use to turn those foot studs.

No, I find your idea was REAL sugar, thanks again. I hope the original poster appreciates us both!!

Go to Home Depot or any large supply store and look at the stairs they push around to get stock of high shelves.

Go to a Tool & Die Shop and look at their die tables.

Look at hospital beds.

There are hundreds of applications using something like this.

Also look at regular beds: frame supported beds with casters as opposed to rail beds without.

Dear Sir,

I have many stock in hydraulic,machinery,engine parts,life-raft,electronic equipment many more item available here.

Brgards

jimit shah 0091 9879793787

INDIA-ALANG

Why don't you incorporate a provision for integrated pallet jacks into the bar's design? Picture, if you will, that when the bar needs to be moved, a door is opened on each of both ends of the bar cabinet. Behind each opened door one can then swing down a pallet jack handle and hydraulically pump the bar an half-inch or so off the floor--a couple or three pumps, say. When the bar is jacked at both ends it can then be moved just like a stack of pallets--either by pushing/pulling on both jacks (two persons), or by maneuvering just one jack with the other following. When the bar is where it needs to be--or back where it was removed from--you simple use the "lower" control to lower the bar back onto the floor; raise and stow the jack handles; close and lock the doors.

In short, I see this as more of a furniture/freight handling/moving problem...to which standard freight moving methods and equipments can be applied. Considering the time and expense you would incur to design, procure, and fit the kind of mechanism you are seeking, pallet jacks are comparatively inexpensive, too. Pallet jacks will also give the strength and robustness you need--right from the start--little need for reinforcing the bar cabinet in order to be hoisted on small corner caster wheels. Another advantage to the pallet idea is that the lifting force would bear at a level higher than the bottom of the bar cabinet. Less problem with disequilibrium and tipping. If time is short, simply make the cabinet with the slots (in the base pedestals) for the pallet jacks, and stow the jacks elsewhere between "bar hops."

What do you think?

My thoughts are that your proposal is far, far too complicated. Look at my post #18 for a simple way, without any extra machinery, very cheap to make with no hydraulics needed....and does exactly what is required.....!

Tell me what you think.....I hope I made it clear enough, if not, please let me know and I will try and clear up any misunderstandings for you....

Oops. I posted my reply under your thread #18, above. Sorry about that.

Hello again someshbhatm,

I haven't been idle here, but thinking about your Bar mobility problem.

Why not have a system using a small pressurized gas cylinder, fitted to the under-surface of the Bar, running via pre-set dialled valves to operate air rams, which push down the casters.

You could have these adjustable valves set to various pre-set dialled positions, with a Master valve to action the pre-set setting, as per below, from one extreme to the other:

1. Clears the Bar from all bottles, glasses drinkers elbows, fires Bar through the ceiling.
2. Clears the Bar from all bottles, glasses drinkers elbows, fires Bar towards the ceiling, where the hooks on the shallow frame hanging from the powered monorail system engage the Bar recessed catches - The Bar automatically travels to the alternative pre-selected location.
3. Clear the bar, fires all rams, lifts Bar high with sudden lurch, clears all bottles, glasses drinkers elbows etc, from the bar, ready to move.
4. Does not clear the Bar, but lifts the Bar gently, not disturbing any of the above, now clear of the floor, but is difficult to move, because of the excess loading.
5. Extra intervening settings and locations may be added, at any future occasion.

It is sometimes useful to incorporate lateral thinking....