A Built-in Generator and Starter on the Engine Flywheel

This idea had been around for a while. As you say, it never really got a lot of traction. Advanced and emerging technologies are catching up!

The Google search string ‘integrated starter alternator’ will get you lots of hits - I didn’t drill into any of them, but many of the top hits seem to indicate there is continuing research going on. Looks like this may well become a thing.

I am skeptical about the “…power your house at idle… sips gas…” segment of your post. Sounds like a 1860’s patent medicine sales pitch, and a claim of over unity. [edit: I read again the OP, and that isn’t quite what you said. Your phrasing still gives me the impression of overunity]

Hi Doorman, here is a simple tool anybody can use, shows what your engine idling consumption is, based on engine size and fuel !

According to the calculator a 5.7 V8 petrol engine will consume 1.34 US Gallons per hour at idle.
Is that considered "sipping" ?

Idling Fuel Consumption Calculator – CarsCounsel

I’m with ya. Yeah, I would agree that 1.34 GPH could be called a sip.

The assertion that the 12VDC alternator being spun with that sipping rate of fuel consumption (at any rate of fuel consumption, sip or guzzle) will produce sufficient current to run a house is the clicker.

It seems wildly optimistic to me. You can’t get six pounds of poop from a five pound bag.

If this portion of the alternator/starter scheme is viable, why is it not viable with the ubiquitous setup of an alternator and a starter motor?

On today’s cars, when you stop at a stop sign or light, the car shuts off, as soon as the light turns green and put pressure on the gas pedal, the engine starts up.

At approx. say 18 MPG, at 70 MPH, relatively yes, but it’s a big sip.

That usage link does not work for me. My truck 6.4 liter, uses half of that while idling. "checked it" last hunting season when I got there a day early. Left it idle all night (over 12 hours) used less than 1/4 tank. 32 gallon tank. The link has me using 16 gallons in 12 hours. I used about 8. It does go into eco mode while idling.

According to your link, a 3.0 liter engine will consume apprx.264172 GPH.

A 10k generator will consume .5 to .88 GPH at 50%to 100% load.

Of course, the load on an engine will increase, affecting consumption, but bigger is usually better at every level.

It could be an improvement.

Get rid of the V belt losses.

The motor part of the flywheel can boost the power for overtaking and hill climbing which a starter motor cannot do.

Instead of spinning the engine up against compression the compression can be activated later.

The alternator only need to recharge the battery and keep the engine working and the fuel consumption may remain the same.

But the change may cause additional design and other complications.

The change may eventually kill the alternator , starter motor and other industries.

To maintain the momentum capacity of the flywheel the size or thickness may have to increase as well as the space it occupy,

The electric and oily parts needs to be separated.

And other.

But it may be an improvement.

Separation is already accomplished with current seals on regular engines..... no need to reinvent the wheel.

Grid-connected electric vehicles already do this: when there is power available from the charging point, the vehicle's batteries charge; when grid power is not available, the vehicle batteries sustain the load that the grid cannot.

The only difference with a dino-fuel vehicle is that, while the vehicle is taking the load, the level in the fuel tank is dropping and will need a connection to a fuel station to replenish, which involves moving it. And it will drop a lot faster if the engine-generator is doing some work, i.e. supplying power to the load; that's where the <...ECM...> does its job and that is what it is supposed to do.

Flywheel isn't turning fast enough for an alternator to produce adequate power (even at cruise rpm). Alternators spin at around 6k to 8k rpm when the engine is turning 2k or less. T*rpm/5252 HP formula principle applies to electricity, too. Just different units for electricity. 746 watts = 1 HP.

It depends on the design; number of magnets, spacing, etc. This is not an Alternator as is usually conceived.

This can be designed for the specific application.

Imagine a flywheel with embedded magnets, properly spaced around flywheel as the rotor of an alternator. A stationary coil surrounding the flywheel is the stator.

Thus, the flywheel\magnet\stator could function as a motor or alternator.

A simple circuit could control speed and voltage; It would not require full engine power to work. This is for emergency backup power mainly, and I think it would be more efficient than a small stand-alone generator.

Modern engines sip fuel when idling. But when loaded, they cannot sip anymore, and the rpm likely has to increase. My house is all electric, and the furnace is 5 KW alone.

Some early cars had a combined starter/generator. I don't really know whether they worked thru the flywheel, but I expect so. I'm also not sure why they died out, but I think they were troublesome.

You mentioned 60 cycles. That is AC; automotive systems are DC because they use a battery.

Hi Lehman, cars produce AC current through the Alternator which then goes through a Retifier (series of Diodes) to convert to DC Current. Up until the 60'ties, Dynamos were used that produced DC direct. Alternators are more efficient than Dynamo's.

A lot of cars cars today use a hybrid Starter / Alternator which uses a toothed belt to Start / Charge the car / Battery, does not use the flywheel at all.

A lot of cars with Stop-Start function use these Hybrids.

The 3phase output from an alternator is rectified and regulated to provide the proper DC voltage.

All alternators produce A/C, hence the name, Alternator.

You're not going to power a house with an idling engine! If you're planning to power an HVAC system, etc. you'll need a lot more than that!

At my house, we also have to power a water well. In freezing weather, we keep a swimming pool pump circulating water to prevent freezing, we heat our greenhouse, etc.

I am not old enough to have seen a flywheel based generator. My uncle had a model T (I think) with a 6 volt gen and battery and was allowed to drive it on the farm but explicitly forbidden to change the settings.

Car and engine manufacturers have design teams and would have implemented it if it was an viable idea.

Flywheel generators (alternators) are everywhere, but only on engines that operate at high rpm or systems with low electrical power demands. Zero-turn mowers, many (most?) ATVs/UTVs, etc (relatively low electrical loads) use flywheel alternators, as do most motorcycles (high rpm). Starting is a different matter. Starting takes significant power, and a direct drive (no gear reduction) starter would have to be very heavy and draw tremendous current to supply enough power to spin the engine. Most of the very light weight starters found on modern engines spin at relatively high rpm and have an internal gear set to reduce rpm/increase torque. Simple power formula, as mentioned earlier.

Idling means running at low RPMs with no Load. As soon as you add load, the fuel consumption will increase even if the RPMs are unchanged.

Most vehicle engines are oversized for providing the electricity required for a typical residence efficiently.

You said “Most vehicle engines are oversized for providing the electricity required for a typical residence efficiently.”

I assume here that you are referencing the auto alternator, not the engine.

A typical automobile alternator is 70 to 100 amp at 12VDC, so 1200 watts on the high side. Converting the 12VDC to 120VAC (with inverter losses) will give you about 1000 watts of usable power.

So, a couple of LED light bulbs and a small toaster and you are maxed out, as long as no generated power is consumed by the prime mover.

The idea that an entire residence can today be powered by a common or usual engine driven car alternator is absolute rubbish.

I was referring to the internal combustion engine. An average car engine today is around 200HP, with compact cars somewhat less and SUVs and pickups somewhat more.

Running a 200HP motor continuously to power a residence, even if you modify the flywheel to generate electricity directly, would be very inefficient in my opinion.

Ah, okay. Please do forgive me, I was misreading your comment.

No Problem. The whole residence powered by a car alternator thing sounds like it could spin off a couple ideas for the Lyndoor catalog.

The good folks at LynDoor Industries continue to tirelessly pursue the operational perfection of our version of the Mr. Fusion portable reactor that was prematurely demonstrated in the 1985 American documentary/drama film ‘Back To The Future’.

As we at LynDoor industries stated in 1985, the device should be ready for beta test schedules within ten years or so. We are working day and night (well, most days anyway, and a little bit after dark a couple of times every summer) to hit that ten year target. Ten more years and it should be just about ready.

So, power your house with a car alternator is pretty small potatoes for LynDoor Industries!

Yes, that’s it. The ‘Kitchen Table’ size fusion reactor has been on the ten year horizon for, what, about 60 years or so.

Something like this would absolutely alter the arc of human history.

200 hp is full power, not idling.

"200 hp is full power, not idling."

That was my point. Running an engine at idle or just above is very inefficient. A typical modern car engine reaches peak efficiency at about 50% of max power output.

I have a 1984 Garden Tractor, 16hp, single cylinder. Made by MTD, built like a tank.

It has a generator/starter combination. A belt drive to the motor.

It is not an alternator but a generator. It has no trouble spinning the starter or keeping the battery and lights on.

I realize this is a long way from an automobile engine, but it shows that the idea has been in use for a long time.

I have had zero problems with the electrical system or the engine. Rebuilt the carb once.

Replaced the front axles with boat trailer axles and Bearing Buddies. Good for another 41 years or so. Of course, a few blades replaced. I have mowed over 3 acres for 40 years.

It will outlast me for sure.

They used to focus on quality and durability, now they just try to make it last duration of the warranty.

Starter-generators are everywhere; many if not all turbines (jets) use them. But direct drive, as proposed in the original messages, not so much. ;-)

Before the REP (Rural Electrification Program) start in the mid 1930’s.

my gramp bought a electric wind mill I believe from Sears and Roebuc to power the vacuum pump for the milkers on our dairy farm.

it was a 32 volt generator. With glass battery’s.

On mild days when not so windy, where the wind wasn’t enough to start the windmill spinning. You turned a switch, and draw power from the batteries and the generator turned into a motor that started the windmill turning.

then you’d switched it back and it returned to be a generator.

Yeah, glass batteries… I remember those. I remember them as something like this…

except smeared with chicken poop and cow slobber, about half an inch of dust, several of these batteries lined up in a sort of nest made of dried up silage and feed bags.

I don’t recall a windmill… problem got pulled down when the place was electrified, the house and a few outbuildings were wired with knob and post, wires just fence stapled to the walls.

Ah, the good old days!

lol, hence the NEC. Just like how AMSE was conceived.

Heavy gauge wire, used it to handle the milkers. The battery’s were store in the basement of the house.

when my parents remodeled the house back in the 69’s. Still had and was using the wiring.

quite a story. We lived right by the polish settlement. My grandpa wanted to go in partnership with the poles. The poles met privately knowing my grandpa was goi g to do it anyways and all agreed to let my grandpa bring in the electricity from the highway (2-1/2 miles away) and then they’d tap in to it. With my Grandpa bearing most of the costs.

They were livid when that wind mill was erected. But he was used to that. As a solo Swiss family He had the poles to the east. Norwegian settlement to the north, Irish settlement to the west and the Germans to the south.

they got along with the Germans, but as a kid, when they talked to you, I always felt they were yelling at me. ”

This was initially flagged as spam. I’ll try it again.

I think the idea of incorporating the starter and generator/alternator into the flywheel is a great idea for many applications.

I just don't don't think it is very efficient to power a residence from your average vehicle motor.

I agree with you on the quality of the newer mowers by MTD. I also mow about three and half acres. We went through a couple MTD mowers built in the early 2000s. We finally spent the money and bought a new Hustler zero turn in 2009 and haven't had to do anything except blades, oil changes, and one set of rear tires. Unfortunately, I have heard the newer models of those have gone down in quality too.

Back to the original post, about 'idling' engines powering a house. This sounds like a 'Here there be dragons' myth; something likely based in observed critters, but details lost to history. Here's the thing: there are a *lot* of industrial/home generators that use car engines in near-stock form, with a big honkin' generator running direct drive off the flywheel. Most of the bigger ones run the engine at 1800 rpm (smaller industrial/home generators typically run at 3600 rpm; that pesky HP formula thing). Note that here in the USA, if you divide rpm by 60 you get a nice round number for AC frequency with either rpm. The bigger units use 1800 rpm because they're designed to operate for literally multiple thousands of hours between overhauls, and operating at 1800 rpm with relatively low manifold pressure (often on natural gas) means the engine will last seemingly forever. You might see a GM 350 cu in engine producing 60 HP (at 1800 rpm) for full output of the generator. I can't help wondering if someone seeing/hearing one of these generators in operation might be the origin of the 'idling engine powers whole house' myth.

When I saw rhe original post I remembered my struggle a long time ago when I had a 1200 cc VW kombi (a 40 / 80) and I thought that would have been nice to have a power boost for uphill drives.

Some time later I had a 4 cylinder caravan with a valve type radio (before transistors) and it was not capable of running the radio when idling.

My old brain did not register the running the house part. During our load shedding period (up to 4 hours without grid power) I bought a 2700 watt petrol (gas) set to satisfy my addictions (Coffey ….) but that was not capable of running the house. (Geyser 3000 watt , stove oven and plates xxxx watt , kettle 2000 watt and other)

An attachment to the engine will not come close.

Can anyone tell me, just what is the advantage (aside from the belt losses mentioned by koos03 - why not integrate the coolant pump, A/C compressor, brake booster, etc. as well, eliminate the belts altogether?) of this integrated starter motor/alternator versus the conventional ICE layouts of today?

Must be something to it. Will this improve somehow the overall engine performance, or will it simply be yet two more auto components that, when combined, becomes so ridiculously complex that even an adroit shadetree mechanic could no longer repair or replace it himself?

Most of those things, instead of being 'integrated', are going electric these days. The intermittent demand items consume less total energy (even after dual conversion losses) when powered with electricity from the alternator than when running all the time turned by the engine.

the electric these days are important and they consume some energy.

The concept definitely didn’t disappear — it evolved into what are now called integrated starter-generators or ISGs, and modern hybrids and start-stop systems use variations of the same idea with the motor-generator mounted directly to the crankshaft or flywheel area. The challenge was never whether it worked, but cost, packaging, cooling, vibration, and durability issues, especially around bearings and electronics handling continuous high loads in an automotive environment. These days some trucks and EV-hybrid systems can already power homes during outages, so the original vision was actually pretty far ahead of its time, just limited by the technology and economics available back then.