Indian appliance in US

Please look through the archives here at CR4 and you will find quite a few threads on 50 and 60Hz questions already. These will answer all your questions as well.

Excellent reply, well crafted and complete.

Only thing I would add is, if this device is certified by a certification body that is not acceptable to the AHJ in the OP's area, his use of it may be illegal.

Thank you for the excellent answer, Raef. I need a bit more clarification though. I have the appliance with three wires coming from it labeled ground, neutral and line (or power).

I have the source with the two 120V lines and the neutral plus a ground.

To connect "line to line" do you mean neutral to neutral, one 120V line to the appliance line, and one 120V line to the appliance ground?

Thanks

John

First check the "Neutral" circuit on you appliance to ensure that it is not connected to the chassis ground You can use a imple meter or continuity tested. It shouldn't be but check anyway. If it is not, you would connect one leg of your US 240V to the appliance terminal labeled "Line", the other leg of the 240V to the appliance terminal labeled "Neutral", then connect your ground to ground.

By the way, make sure that the two legs of your US service are in fact 240V between them first! You can have 2 x 120V wires that tap of of the same 240V leg in your panelboard and will not give you 240V between them. And make sure you are using a 2 pole circuit breaker to get that 240V. Although technically you can get it from 2 separate 1 pole breakers if they are in the correct places, it is illegal to do it that way because one pole can trip without opening the other.

I did all you suggested with interesting results. When I wired the on demand water heater with ground to ground and the two legs of the 240V service to Neutra and Line, the water came out barely lukewarm. The circuit breaker is two pole and each leg of the service is 120V.

Out of curiosity I also hooked the water heater up to a regular 120V service and the water felt about the same.

The implication of this unscientific feel test is that somehow the heating element got the same electric input from straight 120V and from the 240V as I wired it. Any thoughts on why this might be?

Thanks again

John

it was only luke warm because you only gave it half the voltage it wants. You need 2 hot legs from the panel - each will be 120(ish) to gnd or neut., BUT meausre 240 between them.

Not sure I understand. I took the two hot 120v legs from the panel, connecting one to the neutral wire to my appliance and one to the line wire, then connecting the ground from the panel to the ground to the appliance. I did not connect the neutral from the panel to anything. How is what you are suggesting different?

Connect TWO hot wires from the panel to the ONE line wire on the heater. Connect the neutral wire from the panel to the neutral wire on the heater. Connect the ground to ground. You are only getting 120v the way you described it. Also, please note the previously posted warnings and precautions. The two hot wires must be from seperate circuits. You only effectively connected ONE hot wire.

Editorial Note (Jan 9, 2007): DO NOT DO AS THIS POSTER HAS SUGGESTED! IT IS PROFOUNDLY DANGEROUS! SEE POST #53 FOR HIS EXPLANATION.
- Chris

Better rethink this... you just advised the OP to connect two 120 feeds to the one line connection on the heater. If both of his two 120 lines are from L1 or L2, you supplied the heater with 120 volts. If, on the other hand they are from L1 & L2 you just popped a circuit breaker somewhere.

If, on the other hand they are from L1 & L2 you just popped a circuit breaker somewhere.

... or worse... much worse. Arc blast can and does kill people. Circuit breakers do not always trip the way we would like them to. I have personal experience of turning on a small industrial breaker (480) into a dead short. Fortunately the bang and flash happened away from me and others, but it stopped the work of about 50 employees (all turning to see where the bomb went off) over an area of about 100 yards square. The flash was like 100 camera stobes going off, and the noise was like a cannon. This was just one small branch circuit in a larger machine.

Arc blast (again with normal 480 V circuits, not just switchgear room voltages) can throw a person across a room.

To deliberately tell somone to do this (as David says he did in his later post) is horribly irresponsible.

Agree completely...

DON'T do this.

Post #10 IS the best answer.

If he followed my instructions, he most likely have burned out something in the heater without injuring anyone, and would have had to go out and get one that was safe and legal. THE BEST RESULT.

In theory, for him to successfully install this water heater, Yes, I am wrong. Yes, the other posts may have been technically correct, but would have produced an un-acceptable situation. The hardest question for humanity to get correct is "Just because we can, should we?

In Reality:

He would never give up on finding a way to use this water heater as long as it is in working condition. (my way would have stopped him.)

It is almost certainly an illegal water heater and installation. (Everyone who tried to help him is a co-conspirator to his illegal activity.)

Illegal homeowner electrical installations cause much damage and suffering. (any illegal electrical installation has to potential to cause catastrophe and even death, co-conspire that!)

I personally preform electrical work in residential settings, from appliance installations to whole house re-wirings. The most troublesome and dangerous conditions I encounter are from home-owner installations. That is not something I advocate in general, much less, for some illegal appliance installation.

We don't live in a third world country and certainly do not to live in third world conditions so could you imagine if even a relatively small percentage of immigrants brought their appliances with them and then tried to jerry-rig them to our electrical system. There is a good reason for our electrical codes, which have evolved over the years through experience. Experience gives wisdom and understanding. Knowledge only gives us information. All the knowledge from all the people on this entire site does not compare with the value of understanding how to use it wisely.

My pediatrician, some thirty five years ago, was German born and educated in medicine. He told me he came to this country because of the measurement of success in Germany. There, (and then in the 1930's), an operation or patients care was determined to be a success or not, based upon the precision of the procedure. It did not matter whether the patient lived or died. It's not really comforting to know that this philosophy is still alive and well in 21st century America.

You all may not like the method I employed to try to get this guy to do the right thing, in fact you may think it's F'd up. I think a group of ostensibly intelligent people giving advice and guidance to a person whom they know is going to use it for an illegal and potentially dangerous or deadly purpose is alot more F'd up. What really pisses me off about this is that it could be me or my family who gets hurt. How do I know this guy is not my neighbor, doing illegal things to the electrical system in a structure we all live in?

The other answers may have been technically right, but not necessarily the best. I'm sure you have all heard someone tell you, in one way or another, (and even a little bit of wisdom even tells us) "it's not always best to always be right".

Again,

POST # 10 IS THE BEST ANSWER.

No, the best answer would have been to say "DON'T DO IT". What you have done here is very irresponsible and could create a very dangerous situation.

If he followed my instructions, he most likely have burned out something in the heater without injuring anyone...

Yes, but as Blink pointed out in post #63 the possibility of an arc blast is there.

He would never give up on finding a way to use this water heater as long as it is in working condition. (my way would have stopped him.)

Pure conjecture. If you explained the potential problems, he may have.

IN SHORT, DO NOT KNOWINGLY SUGGEST POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SOLUTIONS TO QUESTIONS.

Sometimes I wish there was a BAD ADVICE button, if it may save one from danger.

Hmmm.. That sounds like a good idea. Maybe something like: "Caution: this could be dangerous. Seek clarification." BAD ADVICE might offend well-intentioned posters, and could be used frequently in discussions that lean toward the political (global warming being the obvious example), thereby weakening its effect when really needed. Maybe simply "CAUTION" ? ... or in keeping with (some) tech writing standards, DANGER for high potential of harm to humans, CAUTION for lower potential and harm to equipment.

This would take some thought on CR4's part. In fact, if you thought long enough, it could seem overwhelming. Thinking back to my tech writing days in the coal mining industry, our every word was reviewed by a legal committee. We certainly don't want CR4 to staff up for constant review of all posts. I really don't know what the liability exposures are. One would hope that CR4 would be off the hook -- but who gets sued first, the individual poster, or the company with money? Maybe there are clear precedents?

Continuing to ramble and argue with myself:

Maybe just a simple DANGER button would do the trick. Anyone could click the danger button for any post, and a red DANGER sign would appear at the top of that post. Then, upon review, CR4 could remove it if it seems really frivolous. (The poster of the warning would be tracked, so that CR4 could contact the poster before removing the warning.)

There is a lot of value in having members able to do this intervention instantly, because, as in the case here, suppose the original poster had quickly gone out to try connecting L1 and L2 to the same terminal. (In fact, he did quickly do some experimentation.)

I think this is a great suggestion, giga, and think it could be easily implemented and employed responsibly by the membership, without adding increased moderation duties for CR4. How 'bout CR4 and giga jointly patent this as a business method (a class of patents that almost sends me up a wall)? It would be a competitive advantage over other engineering sites.

There should be three choices:

[ ] Good answer

[ ] Bad answer

[ ] Off topic

Currently there is no way to rate an answer that I disagree with that is on topic.

Also, the rating box should not change as ratings are accumulated. Let the totals speak for themselves.

I'm all for it, but let the patent revenue be invested towards education.

Similar to the one laptop per child, one smart tought per poster.

Or anger management for our global sake.

David:

I've reported your post to the CR4 folks.

To suggest that a person should wire up a dead short is profoundly irresponsible, and could have led to severe injury. Arc blast is a well-documented electrical hazard. Circuit breakers do not always work as we would like them to work. When the OP finished his work, he would likely first turn on the main breaker, and then turn on the branch breaker. His hand would, at that point, be on the breaker leading to the dead short. Re-energizing a breaker into a dead short is a likely time to experience arc blast, and people have lost fingers, arms, hands and life to arc blast incidents, most at 480V (and not just the high voltages in switchgear rooms).

To make a mistake is normal and forgivable. To knowingly put someone in harm's way, and then reinforce that by claiming your answer is the best answer, is not.

I have never previously "reported" any CR4 post, despite the occasional obscenity, abusive language, slurs against "third world" countries, etc. that too frequently show up. But deliberately telling someone to do something so obviously unsafe is unacceptable, in my view.

Aside from that, you should produce the statutes that state that the OP is doing something illegal. I have experimented, in my own home, with all sorts of electrical contraptions, many of a prototypical nature and without any sort of approvals or reasonable safety features. I've worked with voltages well into the thousands, and have operated equipment originally sold in other countries. What laws have I violated? There are hundreds of web sites and books that suggest that DIY wiring is common and legal. What are we missing?

Check if the the 120V supply from the same line.

How you connected the heater is how you should have. There may be something wrong with the heater. Are there any controls with it?

This is the way to connect water heaters here in Canada.

Verify that you do have 220V to the elements, the water heater cicuit you have may be different than what we are used to.

Also make sure the thermostats, safety switch and elements are in proper working condition.

DO NOT TRY WHAT IS SUGGESTED ON POST #10 (aside from the precautions )

I know its been said before, but you should have an electrician look into this. This is a potentially illegal operation and even if you successfully connect it, there is a good possibility that you could injure yourself, your family, or severely damage your home and property.

Ensure that two 120V legs give 240V.

Buddy, do not fidle with the 230V heating element and 120V power source, you may not reach anywhere. Better you change the heating element of the heater from 230V to 120V. Because as far as I can guess your heater uses an SMPS for the control cct, hence it will work with 120V as well. The power outlet you are mentioning is not 120Vx2 but same phase, that is only 120V( forget about the 60Hz, does't make much of defference). And very important;Earth wire should be connected to a very good earth point befor you do any experiment.

A 230 V, 50 Hz motor will not burn up operating on 230 V, 60 Hz.

A few basic facts are in order. The India power system provides 230, 50 Hz vac as measured from HOT (line) to Neutral (which is at earth potential) The GROUND wire is also earth potential. Line to ground is 230 vac. Neutral to ground is 0 vac.

NEUTRAL IS ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO BE 0.0 vac to EARTH (GROUND) However, due to the fact it is carrying current and system grounds are not always perfect, one often finds 'neutral' at the distribution panel a few vac above earth. GROUND wires are additional safety conductors to protect people in the event of insulation failure to the metal frame of the connected load. Ground normally carries no current. Neutral wires carry the load current.

US power distribution is NORMALLY two phase to the home--each phase (hot,or line) measuring 120vac to ground (or neutral). "Hot-to Hot" (Phase to phase) is 240 vac. The houses are wired so approximately 50% of the 120 vac load is connected to each of the (hot ,line) phases. High power circuits are 240V, connected to each phase.

In order to connect a 'water heater' so that it sees 240 vac across the heater element, you MUST have a (hot,line) wire from each side of the two phase feed, measuring 240 vac line-to-line. At the appliance,One of the 'hot' wires is connected to 'line', the other to the wire marked 'neutral' IN THE HEATER.'

Note:EACH of these 2 hot lines will measure 120 vac to the house 'neutral' wiring and 120 vac to ground. Across the 2 hot wires must be 240vac

Typically 240vac circuits contain 2 black insulated wires (the hot or line), 1 white insulated wire which is the system neutral (which is at earth potential) and one bare copper GROUND wire which is also at earth potential, but normally no current flow. Many (most) 240vac appliances in the U.S. have some 120 vac load in them, thus the need for the neutral wire.

The 230/50 vac water heater will not have any 115 (120)vac loads, so a circuit to it need not have the 3 rd insulated (white) conductor neutral.

The main circuit panel for the house will have two vertical rows of circuit breakers. Some will be 'double' breakers for 240 vac circuits. Others will be single breakers. The single breakers on the left are connected to one of the hot lines from the street. those on the right are connected to the other hot line.

Double breakers are connected to both hot lines--one breaker to each side. Electrical codes mandate one use a mechanically linked pair of circuit breakers (the double set) so that if one side opens due to overload or short, the other is also mechanically forced open to deactivate the entire electrical feed.

I hope this helps your understanding of this simple,yet often confusing convention of U.S. electrical codes. If you are not certain or confident, be safe rather than sorry and call a licensed electrician for assistance. While touching a 120 vac source is normally not fatal, 240 vac is often fatal.

You said...

"US power distribution is NORMALLY two phase to the home--each phase (hot,or line) measuring 120vac to ground (or neutral). "Hot-to Hot" (Phase to phase) is 240 vac. The houses are wired so approximately 50% of the 120 vac load is connected to each of the (hot ,line) phases. High power circuits are 240V, connected to each phase."

This is not the case, though it is a common misunderstanding that long time practitioners have. The common 120/240 3 wire residential service in use in North America is not 2 phase, it is two single phase windings connected in series with the common point between the windings used as a neutral connection. Period...

Please see post #32 and lets discuss afterwards if you are still unsure.

Please ensure that you have grounded chassis of equipment, chassis has to be at ground potential at any time (Play Safe).

You can use a transformer to double the 120V (A costly business).

Usually heater coils in INDIA are connected between Phase and Neutral, Ground is connected to chassis to absorb any phase wire contact with chassis (to avoid any catastrophy).

Please ensure proper grounding of chassis. Without proper ground connection, do not even touch heater surface or water coming out of it.

dear john

plz try for voltage doubler circuit for 220v supply & i think 60 hz will not affect it so much and u have no option to change it easily

so try it

take care

thanks

regards

Er, John... Could I make a suggestion that you've perhaps reached the limit of your ability to mix electricity, hot water and copper pipes? If not for your safety then at least to save invalidating your insurance, maybe it's time to have an electrician look at it...

You're kidding, aren't you, when you suggest an electrician ?

I suspect the electrician may need to mention no UL/CSA sticker appears on the unit,which covers for North America,therefore insurance claims might be rejected.

As to it's being illegal, it would be illegal for an installer to sell and install such unit,
but it's not likely a crime to posess said unit.

Isn't the chap on this site because he wishes to avoid an electrician and the expenses involved ?
He was given good advice, just needed a little filtering. As to the electrical design of the unit, most manufacturers try to keep it simple and cost effective - but one never knows for sure, until you look. Chas.

I scrolled down the answers and was looking for one answer I can relate to.

Boy, you hit right on the head. If these cheapies come to USA to live, why don't they leave their cheapness in India and live in USA like human beings. For that stpid heater we all have to go thru this nonsense. Wasn't that easier and cheaper to just go and buy one new one and do not worry about for years to come?

Your answer was the best and I congratulate you for this. I am so happy you verbalized my thoughts. Thank you.

Regards;

This is for the one whose heart is crying for that damn cheap indian appliance, the heater which may have cost him 100-200 rupees or 2000 rupees and still it is 2000/45= approx. $ 50.00 incl. tax

One should not have any sentimental feelings with things. If one breaks down, and not usable, put it on the side walk for garbage collection and buy a new one. If you are too much attached to (or being cheap) then put it in the attick and go up and see it during the weekends and the holidays. Any foreign things and local too will eventually breakdown with usage and best thing is to say good bye and replace with new ones (except spouces).

Nothing personal and no offence intended. Just told you as a matter of factly.

I won't venture into trying to explain the fine technical detail of testing and installation but I'd like to add one thing that seems to have been missed.

For those confused about how two 120V lines make a 240V line:

120V is possible with one alternating 120V line and a neutral....the difference being 120V.

240V is possible with TWO alternating 120V lines...one MUST being 180 degrees out of phase (when one signal starts increasing, the other is decreasing) so the difference is 240V.

********************end of lecture******************************************

Post 10 is wrong as two lines connected together would just provide 120V with the current of two circuits.

Adapting equipment IS possible (industrial equipment is moved around all over the globe) but should be done by a qualified electrician and might end up costing more than just using an on-demand heater from North America.

Your post is not coherent with itself.

If two lines of opposite alternance give you 240V, connecting them together will not give 110V.

Experience tells me two lines connected together give sparks.

You missed to explain that:

Two lines of inverse alternance give 240V between them and 120V to neutral.

Two lines of the same alternance give 0V between them and 120V to neutral.

Neither ways should be connected together if one wants to keep safe and in line with code.

Gosh , I read all the replies on this question , and yours has to be my favourite.

This is because you try to explain voltages from the ground up, if you will pardon the pun. Darn clear explanation, where the two opposite phased 120 V become the two "hot" wires providing 240 VAC, single phase, and the ground is ground.

It should work fine - if not, someone with electrical knowledge will need to have a look.
Chas.

Relative to neutral would be better understood, ground shall not serve any electrical current conduction purpose.

My goal wasn't to be technical, as this is obviously not my area of expertise, but just prime the information pump for the info. I posted when there was no info posted about the two phases needed for 240V and how 240 is possible when two 120V lines are brought to the house.

Thank you for taking more time than I to post! Yours was definately the most coherent I've read so far!

...was no info posted about the two phases needed for 240V...

Two wires, not two phases. Two phase power is not used in the US. See post 32.

This may seem nit-picky, but we have people in this thread suggesting connecting the 2 leads (L1, L2) together to a single terminal, which will certainly result in nasty sparks. More people are killed by 120 than 480, so a little care and precision is in order.

Thanks, I don't be good the last days, take pill all fix.

Sparks, Zaps and Explosions are most fum when expected.

In no particular order:

Contact the manufacturer.

Contact a U.S. electrician.

Contact an Inda electrician.

Buy another water heater.

Switch to gas and save electricity for my A/C.

Man! Some of these answers are actually dangerous!

I am wondering if the person who started this thread for damn cheap Indian heater is still with us. I wish people would not hide behind the guest mask and identify themselves and stay with the discussions. When one has the answer then come back and tell you got the answer and thank every one and people would not keep coming up with the potential answers/solutions.

It seems like some one throws a question behind guest mask and then disappears and does not get involved in discussions and thread keeps on growing up.

I know some of may come back to me and say that resign and do not participate and so I hear you well loud and clear. Your wish is my command.

Well said...

?..and you are a damn cheap and arrogant person to bring, actually smuggle that stupid thing to USA. You should have known the difference between USA and Indian electrical usage like any mediocre intelligent person would have known. Don't you know that you have better appliance avialble here if you cheapies try to buy?

I am done with this stupid thread and shall not open any message any more.

Don't take it too personal man...

At least you have closure now.

Well put. I've added to your good answer rating. Some of the comments, including the most recent ones, are profoundly insulting to you, and you have done nothing to warrant such insults.

I've developed electrical safety training courses for very large industrial clients, and am reasonably aware of the regulations at an industrial level. I am less aware of consumer regulations, but I would have to ask anyone who claims that you are violating some law (by bringing your heater here or trying to wire it up) to produce a link to the statute in question. (If you did, or did not, pay duty on it, that is hardly a topic for this forum.) Your personal property is your personal property, period. There are no laws that prevent a homeowner from doing his own electrical work, and even though your insurance company might prefer otherwise, I am aware of no one who has had his or her insurance company to show up out of the blue to audit the wiring. If they were to do so, the worst they could do is cancel your insurance -- but they want you as a customer, and they would typically simply ask you to have the wiring redone, if necessary, by an electrician.

I, and thousands of Americans, routinely travel with appliances that are not designed for the countries to which I travel. I, like other travelers, figure out how to make it work. The same goes for travellers to this country: we don't force others to leave their electrical devices at "the door" to the US.

That someone here would actively advise you to do something clearly dangerous (such as connect both L1 and L2 to the same terminal) is, frankly, obscene. Arc blast is a very real hazard, killing people working with 480 v circuits, (and probably a few working with lower voltage circuits -- I'm simply not aware of the statistics), so deliberately wiring a dead short, and then trying to energize the circuit would be very very unwise. If circuit breakers always worked just as we want them to, then arc blast would not exist -- but it is a very real hazard, and the topic is required training for industrial electricians.

Good luck and fair winds.

Good post!

Far less pyrotechnical than some...

Great post. I agree with everything except:

• When that load is across the 240 volt source, the neutral conductor serves no purpose what so ever and sees no current flow.

When I am standing in bare feet on my slab floor it makes me feel much better to know that the third wire in my three wire plug is connected to neutral. I think the neutral serves an important safety purpose. If a line lead shorts to the dryer chassis, I hope a fuse will blow.

Although Neutral and Ground are connected together somewhere in the distribution system, they may be, and are at a different potential in your installation, under load and aging conditions.

A water heater, as well as electric baseboards do not have connections to Neutral.

Your safety, or lack of tingling under your feet, is thanks to the ground wire and to the fact that it does nor carry load current and stays pretty much to Zero potential (Voltage) relative to Earth Ground.

Since people die (Wimps) tasting 9V batteries, there is some safety concerns to have when people do use Neutral as a Ground.

Ungrounded circuits used in older installations such as my house are worth the trouble of replacing the wiring. I have some funny stories about that since I was 15 and started repairing electric appliances around the house and played amateur electrician for the next 27 years.

You can lite up a Neon test indicator between Neutral and Ground, the reason for my first multimeter at 15. Not enough current available to move the needle, helped a lot in troubleshooting.

When installing an electrical fixture in the ceiling of a basement, the breaker was off, I climbed on a stool to relieve fatigue in my arms. I touched my forehead to a cold water furnace pipe and got an enjoyable Zap when I touched the electrical box connected to Ground. There was no pump, but the boiler motor was quite old and not grounded, but I was. I figure it had some insulation problems and was leaking electricity to Ground via the piping.

The most recent being:

Added to the benefit of not being tingled when playing electric guitar barefoot in the basement, my older son appreciates the lower noise level enabling him to play even louder.

Oh, well, it is good thing I like RATM.

Great stories!

Your safety, or lack of tingling under your feet, is thanks to the ground wire and to the fact that it does nor carry load current and stays pretty much to Zero potential (Voltage) relative to Earth Ground.

But it is also important that it can carry enough current to trip the breaker if there is a line to chassis fault. Otherwise, (in the absence of an intact neutral in my three wire dryer outlet, for example) such a fault will not trip the breaker, but will make the chassis 120 relative to ground -- which is enough to give a barefooted user that annoying dead condition.

My house, which was extensively remodeled just before we bought it, has a strange mix of sockets, and some of the two wire ones have been wired backwards. Makes me nervous when I am standing in the bathtub, drying my hair, while reaching over to grab the toast from our bath side toaster. Fortunately, my new CD player has two pages of warnings in the instruction manual, so I am no longer tempted to immerse the CD player while bathing.

Remodeled houses are a nightmare, you don't know what amateur DIYer clown did.

I often saw Neutral connected to Ground at the plug.

GFI's are a great invention for bathing with electrical equipment.

I once was untangling some exterior lights fo my patio, I had pluged them to see if they all worked. I was barefoot and one wire had disloged from a lamp socket. Good thing it was a GFI exterior plug. I can tell it was not the neutral wire I touched.

I am now less and less careless with age.

About your CD player, the water's high refractive index would not be good for the laser tracking.

<.....Remodeled houses are a nightmare, you don't know what amateur DIYer clown did.....>

Indeed (been there, done it, got the T-shirt, that sort of thing). It took five days' work to sort out one home installation just to make it safe and a further four years doing adjustments here and there (including an extension, to be fair) before it became current-edition BS7671-compliant (at least, that's what the Test Certificate says).

To me, not following code is more trouble than not doing so, I sleep a lot better.

My mother has a house where wires come out of the walls to electrical fixtures without boxes, straight electric tape connections.

Good thing they put a thick layer of tape.

Hi Ken...

I of course agree with your comments about the importance of the neutral or the "gounded conductor".

With respect to my statement that you commented upon...

• When that load is across the 240 volt source, the neutral conductor serves no purpose what so ever and sees no current flow.

Perhaps a better way of stating the concept I was trying to get across in that sentence is...

"With respect to a load connected across the 240 volt source, the neutral, or the "grounded conductor" is not required to be present as it provides no part of the current flowing to the load from the source or from the load back to the source."

Rick...

Sounds good.

I assumed that was what you meant, but had this vision of someone failing to connect the neutral on their three-wire dryer plug or socket, having read somewhere that it was unnecessary.

And again, the original post was excellent, clearing up a lot of misunderstandings that many people appear to have. I've worked quite a lot around industrial electricians with 480 and higher voltages, and a times I've wondered how they survive. (There are loads of highly competent ones too, of course.)

There is a possible reason why you are not getting 240V even though you are using a "2 pole" circuit breaker.

To understand what is going on, you must first understand how circuit breaker load centers are constructed here in the US. Basically, there are 2 sets of bus bars that extend vertically from the main lugs or main breaker. These bus bars have extensions towards the center like fingers and offset from each other in one inch increments (vertically). Each breaker is 1" wide, so if you have a 2 pole breaker, each pole is stabbed onto a finger of opposite bus bars, giving you 240V between the poles.

There are however a few load center manufacturers who make what are called "1/2 space" or "thin-line" 2 pole circuit breakers. They are only 1" wide just like a single pole breaker and stab into the same place, but they have 2 separate handles on them, so that you can have 2 separate 120V circuit coming out. The intent of these devices is to increase the number of 120V service spaces in an existing load center, but there is a catch; BOTH circuits are tapped off of the same bus bar, so there is no voltage potential between them. If this is the type of 2-pole breaker you took your 2 wires from, then indeed, you just had 2 120V circuits in parallel from the same bus, and you would not be getting the proper voltage to your heating element.

Measure the voltage between the two wires. If it is not 240V (nominally), then this is the situation you have.

By the way, for the negative ninnies out there he is not referring to a standard off-the-shelf water heater, he is referring to an "instant on" tankless water heater which are relatively new here in the US and hard to come by. They are VERY expensive by comparison, up to $1000 with the controls and everything.

We can leave this topic NOW. Too many comments and suggestions are flowing. Can we concentrate on someother threads?

A big yes, please.

The man who started this thread should come out and say, that is enough, folks and let that be over with it.

You are welcome to leave the thread, but when some here are deliberately advising the original poster to do things that could gravely injure him (see post 10), those of us who care for his safety would like to address those issues.

Thanks. I finally got a chance to check this and the voltage between the two live wires is indeed 240V.

I guess the problem is then something to do with the heater itself. I may open it up and look into the suggestion of replacing the element with a 120V one.

Thanks again for your help and good answers.