Speed Camera Citation

But the Swiss to not partake of the same pharmaceuticals (or at least not as frequently) as the Dutch. So maybe they have already forgotten about the violation.

LIKE HECK THEY DONT, BUDDY!

And they're at least as potent here too!

RF_G

Funny. For a country that is so lax about drugs and prostitution they seem to be very anal about speed....

I still have a parking ticket from an unmentionable US city in the attic somewhere, but that was before computers, several cars and license plates ago and I don't have to cross a border to get there.

But the other posters are right, even if the border crossing doesn't trip you up the car rental companies will. They do have long memories. Something to do with revenue, as has also been mentioned.

Maybe they should better forget about those poor few Euro's and just don't allow this wreckless driver (murderer ?!) in their country for life !

I think 30 Euro is pretty cheap for a souvenir.

I think I'd worry more about Avis remembering it than the Dutch.

If you ever want to lease from Avis or Budget again then you will pay the fine before you take position of a vehicle.

And there are no statue of limitation on traffic regulations.

Sooner or later you will have to pay the citation. Any other way will cost you more than the fine and thats cheap. Eat up that much on long distance calls.

"seems a bit low on measurement tolerance" ??

your lucky to be that high,

Here in Melb Australia, the MAX over speed before you get done of speeding is 3km/h over the limit

Car speedo's are manufactured to about 10% tol, the speedo is only accurate to the smallest division which is 5km/h...

I went about fighting a camera violation once but it cost me more in the end cos the court took the stance that because i fought the violation and didn't admit the offence then I'd added to the court's costs so they doubled the fine and added costs to boot. Along the way I found out how the Gatso cameras work and when you know that, I doubt you'll get them on any technical infringements. I don't know if they use Gatso in Holland but if you know it was a Gatso you can go to their website and check out the phone number in your own country and talk to them. They're happy to talk to you and you'll find that they have left no margin for errors so unless you actually go to Holland and check that the actual camera concerned is within Gatso specs then I doubt you will beat the rap on a technical aspect of the camera.

It's so easy ! Just hire a 3,000$ (international) lawyer and find some one who was on the spot with another speed camera what has been verified by officials right before it was used for checking your speed. I'm sure the friendly Hollanders will reduce the fine to 25€ !

I heard a story recently that if you overpay the speeding fine, ie 31 euro instead of 30 then the traffic authorities send you a refund cheque for 1 euro. If you don't cash their cheque the payment remains open and you don't get penalty points added to your licence or hear anything more from them!

Sounds too good to be true - has anybody else tried it?

I got a parking ticket outside Washington DC train station once. When I asked a policeman how I could pay the fine he told me to tear the ticket up, which I did and have never been stopped at immigration on subsequent visits or heard anything from Avis either.

Two years ago I paid a €30 fine in Germany for doing 76 in a 70 KMH zone.....the fixed cameras are very accurate. By the way, if I had been doing only 75, I would not have had to pay anything.

Fighting it will cost more in the end and not paying will get you arrested the next time you enter Holland!!

I have paid 4 or 5 speeding fines in the USA for the same reason, one was $50 in 1983 for example.....I did not want to be arrested like a colleague at re-entry to the USA, was kept in a cell for 12 hours with drug smugglers till they found out why he was wanted.....he also had to pay just $50......missed all his connections, got in late for class in Denver and had had no sleep either, had to find a new hotel (as it was now full) and to pay for one nights missed booking!!!!

Its just not worth it, pay up!!!

"Common sense is genius dressed in its working clothes." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Steve,

Just to clarify. You mention "speed camera" and replies have assumed GATSO's, which would appear to have you nailed. However, if it were the hand held VASCAR type, then the measurement concern might be relevant.

The reason for this is my daughters own experience with a VASCAR. having been caught by one doing 37 in a 30 MPH zone (fined, 3 points), she has since made sure that, in the same area she always kept to the limit. Imagine her frustration then, when she was pulled over again and told that she was doing 37. She protested strongly that this was impossible and the officer shrugged and said that they had been "having problems" with the gun all morning, and let her off.

Perhaps some kind reader could enlighten me as to the method and frequency for calibration of these devices?

.....and Steve, if it was a VASCAR type, you may have a case!

...then he just needs an expensive lawyer and a plane ticket to get it all sorted out!!!

Not such a problem Andy, I go to Holland a lot... Well the lawyer maybe, not the plane ticket.

Not just to pick up speeding tickets, I assume?

When you work for a Dutch company, you end up having to make command appearances in Holland pretty often...

The speeding ticket was just and unintended side benefit I suppose..

usually a tuning fork, held in front of the radar antenna(s)

Mr. Doppler & all that...

RF_G

Yeh, So on that day they used a dinner fork instead!!

Hi HydroScot,

Traffic radar works on 3 basic principles: the speed of the vehicle, the size of the vehicle and the proximity of the vehicle. Newer radar models have an automatic search mode that picks out the fastest reading in their range. So if a vehicle is catching up to you from behind then the radar will pick up that vehicle and not necessarily yours. Similarly, if you compare a motorcycle passing a truck the shear size of the truck may overwhelm the readings of the radar. This same concept applies to the proximity of the vehicle - closer versus farther. Keep in mind that they have been designed to pick out the fastest vehicle. Some people who have been ticketed don't realize this and just pay it when in fact it may have been the vehicle behind or going the other way. A operator has to differentiate between what he sees and the reading to ensure that he has the correct vehicle - this doesn't happen as often as it should.

Testing of a radar is typically done with a tuning fork before and after use. This standard is what the courts have deemed to be acceptable. A certificate for the turning fork is usually required as well.

Rol-N,

Appreciate the explanation.

The WPC comment of "been having trouble with this all day", makes me wonder when and who last calibrated the gun though.

but thanks again.

to hydro scot

try this one in for size:-

citation is for exceeding posted speed limit by 22k.p.h.

problem officer cannot prove if the vehicle was moving at that speed or a radar beam was being reveresd e.g. s.w.r.i.p.ed by vehicle occupant's implant in skull. implant proven capable of causing variables in measurements of speed monitoring or other radar, e.f.i. and e.m.f. inducing/transmitting devices.

product called methyl ethyl acrylate having one carbon molecule extended due to over catalyization during exothermal reactive process prior to implant.

'da ber

.....er, Guest, this actually happened on planet Earth!

For the principalities' and court's points of view, Speed cameras and RedLight cameras are no different from toll booths. Realize that, and you also realize that there's no sensible point in evading or fighting a small, or reasonably large, fine. It's not so much about law and justice as about revenue.

In the Cleveland Ohio area, it is all about revenue. There are at present major "discussions" going on within the city and state about the validity of these cameras, because they are recognized for their true purpose. I have no quarrel with the use of these cameras if they are properly used, but I question the accuracy of the people that watch over them and make decisions as to whether they are seeing what THEY see. They are not trained police officers. There is an effort to discard results of these cameras if an officer is not present and I believe it is a reasonable move.

I absolutely agree that speed cameras would be an issue in the US because you have to be able to cross examine for criminal prosecutions. Wikipedia has a huge article on this and it's rather interesting to read irregardless of what you think of a wiki.

Bottom line is that you have a huge difference in rights between the USA and Europe (including, unfortunately, the UK). Given that the citation was in the Netherlands I would say that the proverbial goose is cooked. In Texas they would just hang the speed camera.

Funny you mention Texas. In spite of popular perceptions, it has been one of the more "progressive" states (arguably the most...) in many ways for many decades--especially in comparison with states which perceive (and advertise) themselves as "progressive." (Anecdotal case-in-point: my own, most poignant first impression upon arrival on the U.S. west coast [WA and CA!) was the eerie feeling of time warp--the sense of travelling back over 25 years in time.) As a place where "people of means also wear jeans," Texas has also been noteworthy as the state where questionable police (and Court) tactics are likely to be resisted, and overturned, in court. One instance which comes to mind was the winning suit in a Ft. Worth court that ended the police tactic of deliberately concealed radar traps--if the radar gun (and operator and police car) were "invisible" the evidence was inadmissible--a prohibition that since has extended to most if not all states. (Ever wonder why it is that Redlight cameras are always "announced" with conspicuously posted signs? Now you know.) So it was no surprise that the loudest protests against Red-light cameras happened in that state--including legislative attempts to curtail the cameras.

As to cross-examining (even with "engineer" or "expert" credentials) as a defendant in U.S. traffic courts? A noble but naive idea! First, the courts and the judges have a vested interest in "random-toll" camera ticketing. Often, they also have the power to set the fines, even when it contradicts statute law! Second, even if you demonstrate expertise, there's always the judge there to silence you, which he/she will not hesitate to do. Forget high-minded ideas from school. In court, the judge is the law. In the U.S. (except Texas), without a lawyer you're sunk before you start. With a lawyer (everywhere), you're sunk after you finish.

This reminds me, that I'm still looking for a good (not ridiculous-looking) emoticon for "tongue-in-cheek." So I guess this one will have to do:

"... I question the accuracy of the people that watch over them and make decisions as to whether they are seeing what THEY see. They are not trained police officers. There is an effort to discard results of these cameras if an officer is not present."

While true--about revenue--Guest's point about the witness aspect misses the point entirely. It is the witness, trained police or otherwise, that is unreliable; the camera is an infallible (and tireless) witness.

Moreover, police are always present, as they are the ones (the agencies) who review the film and decide to cite. The people who watch over the cameras only watch over the cameras (and testify to their efforts), nothing else: they do not review (or even look at) the films, or make any infraction determinations.

Hope this puts Guest's mind at ease.

However, nothing I've said should be taken to mean that citizens (in U.S.) should not continue to speak adamantly against traffic monitoring (red-light) cameras--they should. Why? Because this, in addition to the huge expense of installing them, has been the one thing that has successfully promoted restraint on the part of government considering use of the cameras. But for this they would be on practically every signal-controlled intersection--they are that "revenue enhancing."

It was said that in Cleveland studies are going on to evaluate starting a municipal red-light camera program. That post-er can rest assured that such studies are not for deciding if red light cameras will be installed. What is "studied" is how state and local ordinances must be modified (if at all), what changes must be made to intersections (if any)...to prevent any successful challenge of a "camera infraction" in court. The studies are mostly concerned with examining experiences with the camera systems in California (where it all started) and other states, to see what "problems" (for enforcers and judges) came up and how they were overcome. Whenever such studies begin, it is a certainty that the cameras are shortly to follow--naturally after "public comment" periods intended to make citizens a willing party to their own victimization.

Is was suggested that technical or legal/procedural reasons might be a basis for challenging the red-light-camera police. Actually, the only rationale which has had or is ever likely to have any influence is that of privacy violation. In that aspect courts have held that vehicle operators on public roads have no such expectation of privacy--but, on the other hand, courts have held that citizens in their vehicles do have protections against search and seizures without reasonable suspicion or probable cause. So it would seem that any challenge (by an individual or class) to a red light citation would need to be based on a theory involving one or both of these considerations: privacy and/or unwarranted search and seizure.

Okay lets see, 30 euro is about $60 and 8 kph over is about 5 mph (4.8).

Over here it is $50 for the infraction plus $5 per mph over (5-10 mph over)

That would be a $74 ticket over here. So look at it this way, you got a $14 discount on your ticket.

Just pay it and save yourself the headache.

Sorry, $75 and a $15 discount. Thats what I get doing math problems before having my tea ;)

Its not even $45 at the present exchange rate.......!!! Just look on the web

€1 = US$1.474

Sorry, last I checked it was closer to $2/euro. It has been a while.

Further makes my point, though.

Thanks Andy

Ian

Sorry I feel incredibly stupid, now.

Just realized, I was thinking Pound Stirling not Euro.

Its no big deal, forget it!!

Hi Steve S.

As a frequent traveller to Holland I advise you to pay up as soon as you can, if you don't they will be on your tail as soon as you set foot the next time you arrive there.

When they eventually catch up with you the fine will be at the least doubled + costs!

You have been warned!!!

Spencer.

Hi Steve

Just pay the damn thing. You are at fault for speeding in the first place. You'll sleep better at night.

In SA the tolerance is 10km. So in a 60 km zone they only fine from 71km.

Hello Steve S.

The so-called speed cameras are nothing to do with speed, and all about revenue.

Here in NZ, a speed camera pays for itself within 10 months, after that, it's money in the bank for police.

But in your case, it's not worth fighting, easier to pay up, and be more careful next time.

The idea of overpaying and not cashing the refund cheque has merit, it may work for you.

Kind Regards....

Yes, Yes, I will just pay the darn thing... I did some investigation and my impression is that since Avis owns the car, it is their responsibility first. My understanding is that since it has been a year, that they have likely already paid the fine, to avoid the additional penalties for being late.

I don't think the Dutch police or immigration will be after me, but I suspect that Avis will make me pay it before renting again..

In Texas we would not put up with receiving a citation a year after the fact. As we say here:

"That dog just don't hunt!"

Actually, although Avis has sent on the citation, they are doing so to agree with the law in Holland (if its like Germany) and nothing more.

The Dutch Police WILL be on your tail if you don't pay up, believe me.....

Avis has (by law) to interface between you and the Police, but that is all, they will NEVER pay anyone's fine for them NEVER EVER!!!! Or some not so nice people who are never going to rent a car from Avis again, or go to Holland again would just laugh it off and they would be stuck with the costs involved!!! That could get REALLY expensive for a company AND FINES CANNOT BE SET OFF AGAINST TAXES!!!!

Avis Holland must not talk Avis US, as I rent Avis cars here all the time.

I have also been to Holland several times since the citation (that I knew nothing about until now), but I just took the train rather than renting a car...

But I promise I will pay the fine, and I will not speed in Holland or Belgium anymore. I will only speed in Texas, well.... and maybe Germany.

Lots of our Autobahns are still unlimited!!!

Just be careful when visiting from a "limited" country that cars more than a 1/2 mile behind you may not appreciate it if you pull out in front of them doing 60MPH, when he is doing the best part of 200MPH!!!! 0.5 miles still might mean very heavy braking!!!

.....and this can of course cause accidents.....!

Hi Andy

I saw on tv once that this girl got autobahn driving training before allowed to drive on it. Is it true?? I think Germany is so damn cool.

All Learner drivers in Germany must drive with their driving instructor on the Autobahn, its also part of the test!!

Yes I have driven on the unlimited portions a few times.. My understanding is that they are getting rare though. I heard the German government is trying to do away with unlimited speed limits entirely. What is the latest?

There are a few autobahns where a limit is more often seen than none, but many autobahns still have long stretches where no limits are posted.

I think the Germans are very strict when it comes to traffic offences

Hello again Steve S.

As far as being able to check the calibration of a speed gun or speed camera, you are never allowed to see how it is done.

People here, including myself have asked in Court, and the request denied, on the grounds that: "The Camera Makers do not allow the methods of certification and testing to be available" - That is a condition of sale, when the "Local Authority or Police" purchase each speed gun and/or camera.

So, you see, these have nothing to do with road safety, nothing at all.

Your extra speed caused no problem for other road users, or any accident, did it?

These contraptions are a Statutorily Legal way of Revenue Collection = another form of taxation, nothing more.

But any Local Authority is not going to stop using them, no sirree, they are the finest money-spinner ever used, and there is no legal argument, because "The speed gun and/or camera, always tells the truth".

Kind Regards....

The greatest injustice and legal problem is that the cameras can identify the car, but not the driver. "My son is allowed to drive his mother's car when needed. He let his girlfriend drive it while he was a passenger, and she went a bit too fast. My wife was at work at the time, but she got the ticket and the points went against her, although she could prove she had not committed the crime." Until the cameras can also identify the driver there is no due process of law or justice, there being no witness or evidence of the identity of the driver.

A semi once ran me off the road and I got his plates, the name of his company and the company telephone number to report him, which I did. However when I gave the information to the highway patrol, they asked if I had seen his face and since I hadn't, I was told they could do nothing. It only seems just that the same should apply to a traffic camera when the drivers face is unidentifiable.

The ones in Houston have two cameras, one for your face and the other for the plate. This has caused some people some marital difficulties....

There is only one answer, select your other ID per the face mask below:

As you may see, there is little difference between the pictures.

OK..... so now you can crash your car into someone else, and can always state "I just always leave the keys hanging on a nail outside my back door, and I have no idea who could have been driving my car, when the alleged incident/accident occurred, someone must have taken it without my permission".

It is a perfect defence (Except that you lie), and I have had that trick pulled on me, after some hoons crashed into me - they got away with it.

Kind Regards....

"My son is allowed to drive his mother's car when needed. He let his girlfriend drive it while he was a passenger, and she went a bit too fast. My wife was at work at the time, but she got the ticket and the points went against her, although she could prove she had not committed the crime."

Your story reminded me about a time I got a letter from the police stating my car was involved in a hit and run accident at some part of the city where I never go. I have to call the police station, and made an appointment with the officer to show him my car that no damage was made. After I drove my car down to that part of the city, and asked to see the police officer, he show up 10 minutes later and say, "OK, you can go, it's not your car" without even actually looking at my car!! So, he knows I didn't do it, but still he wanted me to actually drive 1/2 hour downtown just so he can tell me I'm not the one involved in the Hit and Run.

Sorry it was off topic.

MidniteFighter

Er, those signs on the side of the road. The things with numbers on them. Metal, mostly.

What's the concensus - are they targets or are they limits, then?

[Picture removed]

Gatso's which are used in Holland and the UK are not radar cameras. They work by measuring the time spent travelling between two sets of two piezo electric sensors buried in the road, a precise distance apart. They can measure speed extremely accurately, much more accurately than the law requires. The camera is there merely to record your number plate and the driver's face so the police can identify who was driving. It's obvious to UK and Dutch citizens they are solely revenue earners and you can see our citizens justifiable reactions to them here; http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2a.htm

Heh. They need to install "Arson Cameras" to protect the Speed Cameras. But, who will protect the Arson Cameras? Arson Arson Cameras? When will the madness end!!