Wind Farm Cons?

So, has the proposal been assessed by a legal professional? What was the advice?

Hello funtlrn

The economic lifetime of machinery erected for a windfarm is currently around 40 years.

That means in a 99 year period there is going to be the original construction period, with at least another 2¹/₂ or 3 further construction periods during the 99 years lease.

There will also be regular heavy traffic, involving huge cranes trundling to the tower sites, both for construction and maintenance.

You do not give your mother's location, ranch size (except "small") nor the prospective energy company interested in doing a deal for the proposed windfarm.

In my experience windfarms are very noisy things to have in the vicinity, and can cause problems with some radio and TV reception too.

Birds who fly at night suffer badly in a disagreement with blades, even in daylight there are many casualties.

Hopefully your mother could put up with the noise, dead birds, complaints from neighbours who dislike the towers in the neighbourhood, and other factors.

As for me, photovoltaic cells are the way to go, when the price falls enough to make them an economic option - but your mother may not be in an area which has a high sunshine-hour count, or perhaps she experiences snow in the winter.

Once an agreement of that nature is signed, it's too late to back out of it, without probably losing the ranch.

Kind Regards....

I very much appreciate your input. I accessed all of the sites you listed and felt comforted by the info. I have much to discuss with my mom, as this is utimately her decision. We will definately speak to an attorney, although I think her fear is more irrational and may not be allayed even if she is assured all is safe. For my part, I am in the process of aquiring my own land to have a wind farm. I love wind, always have, always will, and figure energy produced by wind is a much gentler source of energy than any other type of energy produced except solar energy. We live in the southwest U.S. so we have plenty of this to be put to good use also. FYI, I am still doing research and would still appreciate hearing of the CONS of wind energy as I am personally SO FOR wind energy that I could be considered too positive and not objective enough to give a loved one balanced advice. Thank you again, IB

Hello. You've definately raised some concerns for me. I will take all into consideration. As I mentioned at first post, risk to wildlife is one of my major concerns. Thank you for replying IB

I feel that Sparkstation has something against wind farms.

The bird death prophecies are overdone.

The noise is not, being downwind (check the direction of the prevailing winds in your area) of such a farm (within 0.5 mile) is not funny. If that direction does not involve anyone then OK......upwind is much less noisy.....

Traffic and midnight repairs, well you will have to think that one out......

The price/value of the land will drop and that must be also thought about!! Does that bother anyone?

Photovoltaic cells are really no way to go for most people as they are dreadfully inefficient at this time, getting better every day, but not quite there yet. Amortization is very slow. Hopefully, a few more years and with lower prices and higher efficiencies, the tables will turn!!

My sister lives in Tehachapi, CA. They have windmills all over the hills there. I don't hear any sounds coming from the windmills there. She also works for GE in the division that works with the windmills.

Even if the windmill did produce some noise, there are people that live next to active railroad tracks and after awhile it gets to where they don't even notice the trains going by anymore.

Windmills don't interfere with satellite or cable.

I would consider that 99 year lease a source of revenue for the next 99 years that can be passes along.

Maybe googling the windmill information would be more informative. There you might find articles from people with first hand experience in the matter.

Or contact GE and maybe they can get you in touch with people that they already have leases with.

hello sparkstation,

the advice about the wind turbine is pretty good but there is no feedback on the type of blades the company wants to install. if the use of vertical blades is dine there is infor from mcmaster university suggesting that while smaller birds are shreddies whent runs the number of them is pretty small.

second item do you have any websites apart from the new mexico group that are really putting the effort into getting solar powere regeneration or generation on the go?

thanks

'da ber

If you were to agree to the proposal, you would be bound by the terms and conditions of the lease. If you have been given a draft of the lease, I suggest you go through the document and highlight some of the concerns and then post them here so that we can comment on what such an arrangement would mean to your property rights. Those terms that are unacceptable can be taken out of the lease before you sign. The company may object and withdraw the offer if you make too many changes. As others have suggested, at some point, your attorney can review the lease. But, the key is to make the changes before you sign because later on it will be too late. Since the lease term is 99 years, you won't have the opportunity to ride it out.

Also, it might be helpful to share with the forum some basic information; i.e. country, proximity to roadways, height of tower, proximity to the power grid, on and on.

Thank you for your information. There is nothing in the lease agreement which even suggests a land takeover. Of course she did not get the idea from anything she read it was from a negative comment she HEARD, and cannot quote any actual negative facts. She is 79 years old and although extremely intelligent, she does watch and listen to a lot of right wing stuff. I am in no position to judge her so that is why I posted my question to this forum. Two heads are better than one!

As for the logistics of the operation, land mass is 440 acres. Projected number of turbines is 15-17 per 440 ac. The turbines are 3.5 megawatt capacity, and there is are power lines and roads nearby. I am not sure of the tower heights but the land is located in quite an isolated area, surrounded by thousands of acres of reservation land, in the southwest U.S.

I love the BEVERLY HILLBILLIES and I recently watched that BH marathon on TV but I don't recall what Jed did or didn't do regarding the oil. I will try to pay closer attention to those excellent role models. I knew I should have paid more attention to how Jethro ciphered. I should be so smart! Thank you for your input.

Beverly Hills 90210

How to get to Beverly Hills using the proceeds of the mineral rights.

Jed was hunting some critters for dinner when a shot from the gun hit a soft spot on the land. Then suddenly, oil (Texas Tea) began flowing up from the ground below. "The next thing you know old Jed's a millionaire, kin folks say Jed move away from there. California is the place you want to be, so they loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly, Hills that is, swimming pools, movie stars!"

Had Jed signed a lease, he would have received royalties from Exxon, just enough to get by, but it would be the Exxon executives not Jed in the 90210 mansion.

Think about it before signing.

One concern that I would make sure that is taken care of in the lease is property damage. The construction crews will clear more land then is necessary for the wind mills. You did say this is a ranch what ever cattle you have may depend on the area for foraging. All so if in an arid area may take a while for the land to recover before it can be grazed. They will need to maintain the equipment so you will all so be looking at lost grazing area due to the network of service roads. Who will be responsible for reseeding and clean up, they will leave refuse behind if not specifically told to remove it. They will try to bury the refuse if just instructed to clean up

99 years is a long time with in that time the land maybe of greater value in some other use. Be sure the monetary return on the land takes that into factor.

And be specific in the land use on the lease. Company's get bought and sold the lease will transfer to new ownership. With out the specifics on the lease you could have anything placed on you land in the future.

If Big Brother wants the land he will find a way to acquire it with or with out the lease.

As a person who lives in coal country, let me beg you to get an attorney to handle this - one who knows property law issues for your state. Many states have laws - some quite old - that can totally screw you in this kind of deal. You may find, for example, that they have the right to build roads and catch basins wherever they need to.

Hello. The information in your entry is very useful. I guess if the laws of this state allow them to make roads than they would probably become public easement. The land is sandwiched in between Native American reservation land and it would not be nice to have a road built that anybody can use as they will. I will definitely consider all of this when it is time to meet with an attorney. Thank you all for your thoughtful and useful comments and concerns.

P.S. In reply to comment #9, we will definitely ask about cleanup of the site etc. As for the cattle, my mom no longer runs cattle as it is not that profitable anymore and most of my brothers and sisters are to busy pursuing the "AMERICAN DREAM" to have time/desire to raise crops or graze cattle. Besides from all that I have read, grazing can continue with the presence of turbines. As to Nantucket and the wildlife, birds particularly, I am sure the water states have much more to lose in the number and species of birds than we do in the high desert. (Not that I think our birds are not important or are expendable even in small numbers- they definitely are NOT). By the way I think you are right about NIMBY. Some people claim that the turbines are ugly, I think they are beautiful and it is so exciting to know that every time the blades are turning it means a clean natural resource is being utilized. I have an affinity for wind.

Before signing any lease, consult with a lawyer and express your concerns. Remember you will most likely inherit the property and all that goes with it. The terms and conditions of the lease are of prime importance to settle any problems or potential ones in advance.

I had an oil well lease on 2 quarter sections of CO flat land which was land locked. No problem with road. It can be done right.

I thought I made a comment yesterday however it hasn't appeared. I suggest you Licence the wind farmer rather than lease the land. A lease will prevent you accessing the land, where a licence will allow cohabitation. A lease will mean you have no control over what happens on the land. weed infestation can be a big problem as can erosion and waste disposal. A Licence will allow you to access and use the land in conjunction with the wind farmer.

I hope your mom gets with the deal, free power ;o)

There are some new windfarms recently installed here in Tasmania, Australia. I was part of the installation team and still know one of the operational staff at the site. Yes, migrating rare birds have been killed there and they have restrictions placed on them by govt and greenies. Noise is a problem if you are close or downwind. The view could be called polluted or magnificent depending on who you are, being placed on the coast they are visible for 50 miles. The Tasmanian govt owned company that built them has now sold a controlling share to Chinese govt company, I do not know what that might do in the medium term. A wind farm in a neighbouring state(county) was shelved recently due to greenies and residents who demanded to put the power lines underground, too expensive they said (probably waiting for change of govt). We have 3 more farms planned in this state. I am a complete fence sitter on the subject.

The wind farm down at Buangor area of Victoria can be seen for a large distance around, I think more are going up just North of Ballarrat (drove past some tower bases on a hill)

The one at Buangor has a road circling the area with vantage points so tourists (I call them terrorists) can stop and take pictures ;o)

a lease would not be good as she then cannot use the land herself and it locks it up. if the company went belly up they could well steal the land. Much of the grass under the turbine will still be grazable. I suggest she Licence them to use her land, then she is entitled to use it as well and there are no issues of squatters rights etc.

This is doubtful. The post presumes the lease will convey the fee lease for the entire land area. More typically. such lease conveys renter's rights only the required (sub) area needed for the utility, plus air rights in some cases. Nor would squatters rights enter in...this is an entirely different matter, in no way applicable to a lease arrangement for term. There is no legal reason she should or would be deprived of the "at large" (the fee simple) portion of her land...which is likely to be separated from the lease portion by some barrier. Another part of the agreed terms might pertain to access right-of-way for installation and maintenance thereafter. Again, her exclusion from such right of way is not of necessity excluded unless she agrees, and unless she receives commensurate rents.

I am utterly at a loss to see how royalties enter into the picture. Are you proposing that by virtue of conversion to electric, the landowner is entitled to compensation for the air molecules which happen to pass over her property and through her air rights--as if such chance molecules were being mined like a mineral? Like oil or gas? Seems here you might have mixed two entirely different legal concepts? Awaiting clarification, possibly retraction in part?

Like every project windfarm has also pros & cons. Let us weigh the parameters and then take the decision. The highest contribution of windfarm is GHG free power generation which is the highest need of present & coming generations. Let me have permission to counter some of the cons:

Noise pullution: Yes it is noisy but now with improved techology the noise level has come down to that of a busy city and I hope your mother's house will not fall under the turbine.

Site interruption & objection by neighbours:This is the only con that cannot be countered still I feel this depends on our own perception "beuty lies in the eyes of beholder'. Many windfarms are tourists attraction. Also to take permission for windfarm from government, the agency will have to show no objection certificate from all the NGOs and inhabitants of that locality. If that happens no body will blame your mother in future. For more details you can refer to RE Laws of your country.

Bird fatality: Though while putting windfarms proper care is taken of wild animal's & birds' movement tracts. Still some fatality happen but that is much less than the no killed in hunting & other accidents.

Movement of heavy machineries & traffic: This happens during installation only and that period extends for 6-12 months max. During operation it is very quiet from that point of view. Since, usually the life of such turbines is 40yrs this installaiton period may happen 2-3 times during your lease of 99yrs.

But yes I don't understand why the agency is insisting for 99 yrs. The contract period can be 40yrs and renewable with reveiw of conditions based of resistance from inhabitants.

I assure you that new turbines are very much friendly, gone are the days of those noisy turbines. Still you can negotiate for adding a noise level at average wind speed range clause in the contract in consultation with your counsel.

I would worry about the noise, and for sure, ask your lawyer about "imminent domain". More than once, a utility company has managed to grab land for the "good of the people".

Think about it another way. If it were oil, would you want the drilling and rig on your land, with all the traffic, noise, etc. Will they want a road and right of way to the wind farm? I'd get everything re the proposed farm written out by the firm and run it by a competent attorney. Will their presence on the land restrict future generations from selling the land? Will the wind farm on the land reduce the land value? Can they increase the size of the wind farm any time they wish? Get statistics re bird kill, lightning strikes, radio/TV reception problems, transformer stations and electric wire towers and concerns. Do your homework before you agree to anything, regardless of the potential income.

Good question, I will add it to my list of things to ask. Thank you!

The answer is, No. And even if it is or were to be, it has no bearing on the property owner--the lease should provide for such contingencies with a clause that the generator will incur all taxes (existing and any increases) for the leased portion of the land. The utility will readily accept paying any applicable tax or levy without question—such taxes being deductible. On the other hand, (in U.S.) federal and state/local income taxes on lease revenue cannot be avoided.

Speaking from the U.S. perspective--yes, Original Post-er (OP) did not give the mother's location/jurisdiction--a 99-year lease is more apt to be the case between corporate persons as opposed to individual persons. Indeed, many jurisdictions will restrict the placement of utilities upon private lands in preference to Commercial zones in all but exceptional cases. That said, your's and OP's posts bring an additional layer of legal complexity to the prospective lease--and possibly the need for additional legal assistance (specialization), above and beyond the realm of real-estate/lease law. It being a virtual certainty that a 99-year lease will survive its (in this case, the lessor) maker, the question will arise as to the disposition of the mother's estate upon her death. Only one "life in being," the mother's son, was mentioned by the originally-posting son. For sake of discussion, we might suppose that he would be her only, first degree heir if she does not devise, or has not devised her property, tangible and intangible to him. But, let us suppose that he, too, does not survive the lease--or even that he does not survive his mother. In such case the matter of future interest in the property, and in the lease, becomes more complicated. For example, she would be unable devise a future interest to anyone not yet living, and possibly not to anyone not yet born for another 79 years. She would not, for example, be able to will the lease to (say), descendants of my son not yet born. If, on the other hand, she wished to create a future interest in a presently living grandchild (child of the son), she herself might only be able to "enjoy" benefit of the lease for as few as 21 years (of whatever remained of the lease term while she lives. Accordingly, additional expense for attorney advise is something that probably should be taken into account. Perhaps the son--who for reasons of his own seems most involved in the lease issue--would want to consider a contribution to that end--on behalf both of Mother and of Mother's son.

Hello. I wondered if anyone would assume that the original poster was a male. The original poster is one of seven daughters, and sibling to five brothers. We would all be involved in the ranch's upkeep and cost. Before my mother passes we agree that we should set up a family trust that would keep the ranch in the family. Thank you for your interesting and insightful commentary. Kind regards IB

By comparison, a typical negotiated rental rate under a PCS/wireless monopole/tower (solo or co-locate) lease in U.S.A. (to wit: Calif.) would be $300 - 500 per month. A wind generator would probably range higher due to greater space/lease-footprint requirement... Such a lease would gross unadjusted $356,000 - 590,000 over the lease term...with escalation clause (to adjust for inflation), much more.

It has to be inflation linked to be worth having I feel as well as all the other important points.

Good that he came to CR4!!!

These contracts are inherited by survivors so the royalties or whatever would pass on to them. The thing is my moms land is just sitting there now. She would NEVER divide it up and sell it no matter how valuable. Right now my mom is living on a very fixed income with the exception of the money she gets from an outfitter who buys her hunting permits for a pittance I might add and who then sells them to Texans at a much higher price. I repeat she would not under any circumstances break up the land except when she dies and the land is split up to survivors but it is in her will that if a kid decides to sell their portion it can only be sold to a sibling. My mom is very anti development good thing, and the ranch will never be considered commercial property as it is smack dab in between reservation land and in a very remote area. I appreciate all of your thought provoking questions. Thank you.

A long time ago, I worked for SSKresge, the predecessor to KMart. They had an early habit of getting 99 year leases for small drug stores. The problem was that the building owners after 50-60 years would go broke under terms of the lease and the buildings would end up being very run-down with leaking roofs, bad paint, poor exterior repair, etc.

I know this is an apples to oranges comparison, but 99 years is a l o n g time, and you may some type of adjustments as time goes by.

Don't know about you but, unless it's Manhattan, I'd take a guaranteed passive income (sure to be $350-500/mo. or more), reinvested and compounding for 100 years, over property value any day. What's more, keeping development out is not a bad thing in many rural places...and it's becoming an increasingly good thing.

Side's that, you didn't take into account what the land would be worth--how much its value (and the house's value) increases--just because of the lease proposal! And that's not all. Where there is one wind generator, there can be more...and even more rents. What a bonanza!

(They should take the money and speculate on property and development elsewhere.)

There are a lot of great comments regarding a topic which I know little about ... thanks to all, I now know more.

One thing I can add is to YES make sure a trusted attorney reviews all the documents, especially regarding the use of the land, and the liability of the company during their lease. Regarding the 'use' issue, make sure the contract spells out the limits of the intended use, including unforeseen discoveries. Resources below the ground are not the property of the land owner, and who knows, possibly since we are now 'farming the air', maybe the resources above the ground are not the owner's property either. One thing for sure, if there are any vague issues in the contract, the single individual can rarely win against the litigation power of a large business.

The other issue regards the use of the land. In the next 99 years, I seriously doubt that wind power will be as attractive as it is today. Sometime, maybe soon, there will be alternatives which will make those machines obsolete or too costly to operate or maintain. Then what happens to the land? If it were mine, I wouldn't want some alternate use being made of it for the remaining years, and if abandoned, I would want it reverted as much as possible to its original condition (ie. remove the equipment).

One final, but related point. For any number of reasons, this operation may go bankrupt, then what happens? The equipment sits, rusts, and becomes a huge liability to safety. It will detract from the property value, and will cost quite a lot to have removed. (case in point, albeit on a different scale ... I now am the 'proud' owner of an old barn which finally fell down. The remains are now a liability to anyone getting hurt, it looks bad, it lowers my property value, and it will cost a lot just to have it cleaned up.)

Alternative energy is a great idea ... its a shame it can get so 'messy' with all the legal and financial considerations.

Advice with which I concur. Of course we will consult an attorney. Thank you for your posts, one and all.

However, what you might get at places like this are points to bring up with your attorney! Lawyers do in fact appreciate knowledgable questions from clients.

lawyers and consultation cost big bucks, nobody works for nothing, are you ready for such expenses? Find out solutions on all concerns facts yourself, then, if the prospect company really serious about your Mom`s ranch, you shall try to negotiate to get partial or full paid to recover all your expenses regardness what the outcome of such project. Good Luck.

Hello. Your advice is some that we will heed. We are looking at only the most reputable wind farm companies and talking to other wind farm owners in our state, although we cannot discuss dollar figures with them per se because of confidentiality agreements that they signed and that we would have to as well if we go forth with our project. There is no getting around the fact that we will have to get a good contract lawyer, fortunately my brother in law has a good one that we will contact. Thank you for your advice. IB

here is a link to a report on bird fatalities by region.

http://www.nationalwind.org/publications/wildlife/wildlife_factsheet.pdf

Hello. Thank you for that useful website link. I have been looking at it and am glad you sent it, as it does address some of my concerns. I appreciate your taking time to comment, Kind regards, IB

here is another link regarding Travis air base and the effects of windmills and radar.

http://www.windaction.org/opinions/12094

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cdd_1203701257

OK! THAT was SCARY.

See # 17. Wouldn't want mom's cow to become hamburger and then loose 25% of revenue for a year during repairs if she only had 4 turbines, providing the gearboxes are not screwed up on the other 3.