What Causes Surging of Water from the Softener?

Hi Slong

By surging do you mean it flows out fast and then stops?

That may be caused by a siphon effect. The water keeps on flowing until air is sucked in at the entrance. You then have to wait until the tank fills up again above the bend of the siphon to prime it again.

Hi Hendrik,

Thanks for your reply.

The water is flowing from the main water supply line through a softener followed by a carbon filter (one vertical cylinder with two sections in it). From the carbon filter it goes straight to the faucets. There is no storage/buffer tank and I have removed any air in the system during filling of the softener/carbon filter.

The surging of the water flow is like when you open and partially close the faucet.

Sorry I did not read this comment before and gave you wrong advice on pump performance. From your explanation it looks like there is no pump involved and the softener and the AC filter are directly connected to supply mains.

If that is the case it is more likely that the inlet pressure is not sufficient to overcome the pressure drop. Adding a small booster pump (pressure pump) may solve your problem.

If the pressure starts out high and slows down once it may just be a flow rate problem through the filters. The pressure is building up and equalizing during non flow times and slowing down when opened to the rate that the filters can accomodate. Does the flow remain steady after initial opening of the faucet or does it pulse contiuously? Try opening the faucet slightly and see if there is a steady flow. Slowly increase the flow from the faucet and see if it continues to run smoothly. If it runs without surging you may need to change to a filter with a higher flow rate.

Hi Charley99,

Thank you for your reply. The flow pulse continuously also after closing and opening the faucet slowly.

I assume by surge you mean it pulsates in flow from high to low to high to low...

Try taking the filter (and any other filters in line) out of the carbon filter unit and eliminate the filter from the equation.

If the problem remains, then I would suspect your water softener is malfunctioning.

I really don't know the inner workings of a softener, but they do have a valve that is electronically controlled to reroute incoming water through the salt and the resin beads. The outflow is diverted to a drain tube instead of your house water line. If that valve is not remaining in the correct position it may vacillate between the two states and you would get surging pressure.

I would call a plumbing supply store that sells the water softener and ask if they know of any failure modes that would cause surging in pressure. You could also call the softener manufacture and ask for a technician, but many times a store will have more experience with problems.

sounds like you may have an air trap and the trapped air compresses and when the tap is opened can pivide a surge, esp if air passes a valve.

Most of the time when i come across surging water from a softener, it is due to a small piece of media caught in the venturie, or a problem with the drain. Other problems may be an o-ring in the piston assebly, or even possibly inlet problems with the bypass. Check the drain first, by disconecting the 1/2" drain line, and blow in it, to make sure there are no obstuctions. if it still persists, shut down the water to the unit, and pull apart the venturie compartments. they are at the drain, and on the brine inlet. YOu will probably find there is media bed stuck in said nozzels. If not, it has to be the piston assembly. it too is very simple to pull apart. Basically pull all apart and look for signs of wear. If you are mechanicaly inclined, this is an easy task. with some background, you should be able to basically rebuild this unit. good luck, sincerely,

dumber plumber

BnX

Interesting - there was no definite source of the water - city or well.

I had a similar problem, but with no softener. My well had a valve which was beginning to malfunction. The well service which replaced it called it a "flapper valve". A simple rubber valve similar to the stopper in a toilet that seals the water for the tank replenishment.

When I would get the surges - the air that was being let into the system from the well, would burp like I had drained the system - usually showing up at the first , most used, and hightest, point in the system - as the air settled.

I have the well on my property and share it with my neighbor. I would get all the air that would be generated from the pulsing, on/off, of the neighbors use during the day...

Depending on the cycling, with or without a surge tank, the rubber particles gave away the valve issue - which were not seen until I had pulled the screens off of the faucets affected.

Good luck..

This also happens when the pump is in a non stable performance area. It tries to operate on 2 points. It also can happen if suction line is not 100% sealed and suction is lost momentarily on and off.

I have the feeling this is the most likely scenario in your case. Please check the pump and if possible replace with another pump and see whether same happens.

You have received good advice, if you are mechanically inclined and you do not use force on any of the components, you should be able to fix it quite easily!

My advice is to make a quick test first, as any correctly installed Softener has bypass valves installed, to allow water to be drawn when the conditioner is out of circuit for repair or maintenance (if they are not installed, now is a good time!!), put the conditioner on bypass and see if the problem is fixed, if no = the softener is not the problem, if yes = yes it is the problem....quite simple really!!!

Good luck.

By the way, if you damage anything, and need to buy a new part, it will still usually work out cheaper than having a plumber do his repairs!!!

Hi Andy,

There is no pulsation when I put it on bypass. Thanks.

Hello,

It is more likely than not that the filter media is simply dirty and is in need of replacing. When the carbon media gets old it looses it's ability to be cleaned and the result is surging, this is caused by the media content clumping together. I have seen this many times back when I was the Culligan man.

Dave

Hi DThomas16,

Thanks for your reply. The ion exchange resin and the carbon media is one year old. The ion exchange resin is suppose to last 5 years and the carbon media 6 month. The pulsating flow occurred right from the beginning. I was hoping it will disappear over time.

Exactly what I almost said, almost. Shunt around the filters to see if it's something else. The filtration could be partially alleviating a more severe "surging" caused by something else.

If that doesn't eliminate your purifier, then please try to explain in more details what you mean when you say, surge. Or even if it does not eliminate...

That way, hopefully you won't have to check out quite as many possibilities.

Thanks

I believe that you have dirt or a few resin particles in one of the system valve......nothing else fits!!

Hi Andy, thank you for your reply. I'm afraid that this is indeed the case. I found some resin fines in the brine tank each time after regeneration. I thought over time the fines will be flushed out and clean the valves during the regenerations. Any idea how the fines are produced or is it a poor quality resin?

There are only two possible causes for resin particles as you describe 1 the flow restrictor in the drain line is missing, 2 the filter is connected in reverse. the later would most definitely cause surging I doubt it is the quality of the resin.

I do not feel that this is a resin problem (I am no expert!), unless a lot of particles are under some specific size for some reason.....as there should be some sort of "sieve" to stop this happening, but exactly how its done I cannot say personally.

The only thing that might help is to reduce the quantity of water throughput by partially closing the mains cock to the house. The problem with this fix is that you then do not get a good flow for showers or the bath......so experiment a little.

.....it might do as a temporary fix though until you are able to contact the manufacturer for a proper fix.....maybe these "Sieves/filters" were forgotten?

Dear Andy,

If you partially close the mains cock valve then it will reduce the inlet pressure further and situation my worsen. I think (!) what he means by surging is water comes out through outlet sometimes at a high rate then at a low rate. Typically this happens when a pump loses suction (ie due to air ingress etc) or if the inlet pressure is not sufficient to overcome friction in the filters.

I agree with you this is very unlikely to be a problem with resin. These filters inside have distributors (sieve like fitting)which prevent media coming out.

Only way to sort out the problem is

(1) bypass both softener and AC filter and see the performance

(2) Introduce softener only and see performance

(3) now by pass softener and introduce the AC filter and see performance

With this you will be able to pin point where the problem is. Once it is done may I suggest for the party who has this problem to publish outcome results in the forum for further advice. It will help all of us engineering professionals.

if you had taken the time to read what has been discussed and done, half of your post would have not been needed!!!

The problem IS in the softener. We have done the tests already!

Reducing the throughput would have reduced the swirling and should result in less particles being transported, till a fix is found. This would reduce the particles entering the valves which hopefully reduces the problem significantly.

In my previous post, I said that I felt that parts were either missing or not doing their job correctly like sieves or filters......Wasn't I clever?

OK maybe this will shed a little light on things and you all decide.

Water softner's flow like this, in the normal mode the water flows from the top through the outside area of the valve top down through the resin bed into the riser tube then upward and out of filter. in the regen mode or cleaning mode the water flow reverses direction. in most filters if not all there is NO screen in the valve preventing the resin from escaping during regen. This is controlled by a flow restrictor in the drain line port of the main valve. You are chasing two seperate problems here What manufacturer is the softner of filter?

Hi DThomas, thank you for your reply. The system I have (on demand water softner) is exactly like the one you describe. I bought it from BudgetWater USA (www.budgetwater.com).

I am reasonable sure that the filter you have is actually made by Fleck, it has a single piston main valve which will by itself not cause surging.

there should be a restrictor in the drain line. this is usually a rubber looking washer behind the fitting that the drain tube connects to the valve, make sure it is in place. also make sure it is not plugged. put the unit in regen mode and monitor the water coming out of the drain line. The water will flow slowly at first then a bit faster then slowly again. also check the regen time, you will want to set it so that it regens only when you are not in need of using water.

Surging from a filter is usually caused by air trapped within the tank. air can be introduced in several ways. if this is a new filter just installed and the problem has been there from the beginning then it is most likely connected backwards. if this a new problem on an old unit then the valve piston is in need of repair or simple cleaning. I have seen main filer valves clog within days of being installed.

a simple test of the resin bed is to remove the riser tube. to do this remove the main valve exposing the riser tube, pull the tube up and out of the tank. It should come out fairly easily, if it does not then the media needs to be replaced. To reinsert the tube into the media put the tube in the center of the tank blow through th tube while pushing down. The tube will go down fairly easily if the media is in good shape.

I hope this helps

Dave

Dave, thank you for your help.