Heating Water Through Friction

Thanks :) I'm wondering how the vanes will work, perhaps I should have clarified my design further: The outside can will be adhesed to the axle, the inside can, containing the water, will be freely moving around inside the other. I'm not quite sure about the physics behind this... I'll definetly have to look into that.

I'm wondering if I should narrow this down first, and try to find a way to maximize the friction effect inside the cans before going onto designing the whole system.

Using logic I can assume that the friction causing heat will come mostly from the cans being heated, as opposed to the water. So my theoretical goal right now is to find a way to hit the can alot without damaging it and in the right places, while retaining heat inside the whole can system.

I have a lot of work ahead of me :(

thank you for all your help, maybe this new set of questions will again strike your interest and help me learn a little more

Hello Melanie,

Your post is very interesting, because it is new idea .

But I think that, it is not effective project in now. You can use winds energy to do that e.g. Wind energy → electric energy → to heat water.

Hi

To make energy by wind is an old way which everybody knows.

The ideas we are discussing seems to be new and interesting. it may be not effective

as you yourself are thinking, but having a trial is a good way for Melanie. the result will be evaluated after Melanie finishes his work.

Yes but wind energy is a very expensive commodity; despite the increased efficiency, it wouldn't be economic enough for third-world countries.

Agreed.

its is acceptable for only to some extent.

but however frictional loss itself has to be protcted

Hi,

It can be done. Use Hen's idea of vanes if you can adapt that to your project. You might try Googling Joule's Mechanical Equivalent of Heat experiment.

Bingo! Here it is, for convenience of the original poster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_equivalent_of_heat

Thanks a lot for all your suggestions, I will definetly try these out.

My partner for the project and I are now working on designing the experiments, we are going to be using an electric kettle as the basis for comparison.

We also might combine the ideas of solar heating with mechanical heating through friction. The main goal of this is pasteurizing the water (I may have left this out previously) so UV rays during solar pasteurization will react with the oxygen in the water and kill some of the bacteria before letting friction do the heating work (as the problem with solar heating is it will take a minimum of 6 hours on a sunny day to pasteurize!)

This project is still in the developing stages, so stay tuned for updates within the next 2-3 weeks, by which time the entire project should be finished. We haven't yet built a prototype but are working on sketching out and planning design ideas.

What we still need to do is:

• Maxmize friction within the cans (heat will be transferred from the friction between the cans to the water as opposed to directly from one can to the water; this is because water will not heat up through direct friction unless wicked amounts of energy are applied)
• Minimize friction between axle and base (we may consider using ball bearings, however these could be expensive and defeat the purpose of using recylced materials)
• Maximize energy expelled by elastic band as well as speed and length of time for turning of the axle
• Use as few materials as possible; make it very economically viable for third world situations
• Also, we need to work out how to do the solar heating step in an efficient manner

New suggestions are welcome thanks again

• Maxmize friction within the cans (heat will be transferred from the friction between the cans to the water as opposed to directly from one can to the water; this is because water will not heat up through direct friction unless wicked amounts of energy are applied)

Wicked amounts not required. Interestingly, and as others have mentioned, you are in effect repeating Joule's original experiment -- and of course he's the guy for whom Joules are named. The experiment formed the foundation for one of the key principals of physics. So whatever work you put into the water will result in an equal amount of energy in the form of heat.

If you search through this site on windmills and water, etc. You should be able to find a recent discussion re a windmill being used to heat water to 150 degrees or so (for domestic hot water). The friction is intermolecular (from stirring and turbulence) more so than the friction against the side of the cans where the flow is potentially laminar (meaning stuck to the surface and not moving relative to it).

Great project! Very impressive.

I was out in the country today.

If I understand correctly you want to use the friction between the 2 cans for the source of heat.

Incidentally I saw a relevant accident today. The bearings on the back wheel of an old ldv was damaged or gone. The wheel was turning on the stub shaft. when the wheel came off the shaft was sizzling hot.

The accident happened 200m in front of me as I was accelerating to pass the ldv. The friction between the disk and the pads on my car (ABS) also caused a lot of heat and I am sure I have lost a few mm somewhere.

Thats very interesting and I'm sure this theory can be applied to the cans... I'm wondering if it would work better with two cans that are closer in size, as opposed to two cans with very differnt diameters?

I think I'm going off on tangents here... but it might be a good idea to write out what Im thinking now...

From what I can remember the equation for finding the force of friction is this:

Ff = coefficient of friction x weight
This means:

• Increase weight of water inside can (could that translate into increasing the size and therefore water capacity of the can?)
• Insert materials on the inside with a high coefficient of friction.

Are there any more relevant equations you can think of that would make sense, too?

Close in size is good - you want sufficient viscous drag so that the work done on the water is greater than the losses. But it will be hard to tolerance using just a pair of cans - perhaps you should use several cans with their sizes alternating between erect and inverted cans (the sizes should be spaced as closely as practical while avoiding contact.

what about a tesla turbine, it rotates at very high rpm's you might see some temp. increase

Just a quick concern, with enough friction to heat any volume of water you will need to account for wear on the cans. Reducing this wear will lower your heat.

How about making the contact out of a rough fabric sleeve that can be replaced at need?

Hmm, that's a good idea, but we'd need to find a material with a low heat capacity to act as a heat transferring device... what we want is to have something that heats quickly and loses heat quickly (e.g. rocks and metals). I'm afraid that wrapping the inside can, containing the water, will insulate it further.. water has a high heat capacity and I think that insulating it further will make it heat even slower... I'm not sure though. Please tell me if this is wrong.

What would be a good material? I think cotton would work horribly, I know from experience at sailing and at camp that it steals body heat (I'm assuming it retains it). If this is not so then cotton would work well, if it gathers heat and then transfers it.

Thanks a bunch for your reply :)

I would look to copper as a potential conductor of heat friction.

how about a ceramic tile but try to retain heat not evaporate it.

spun as the armatures of a powersource, perhaps a bit of a shock, might result: might be fun, then again might not.

How expensive and available is copper?

Other than the economic issues regarding it, it seems like a very good idea as I hear copper is an excellent conductor of heat.

I'll investigate it, thanks.

scrap wire is easy to locate. some work required. Almost every thing electrical has copper wire.

I can't let you keep going on like this it is killing me. What you want is a new tech. already being put into use. It is a water slammer. Essentially it is a solid round with holes drilled to certain depths depending on the appl. also the amount of holes also differs for the appl. meaning the temp. can be controlled according to the amount of holes in the cyyclonic cylinder being used. Also the speed I have observed is a constant 3750 rpm Hope this helps you further.

Hi Melanie,

How do you propose to turn the axle -> cans? Are you using a hand crank assembly or some other method?

-John

A hand crank would be simple... I don't think my partner and I are too worried about this at the moment though. Why, what do you have in mind?

Dear Melanie, I applaud your conviction to your project. If I might suggest a simpler method: back in my post #17 I suggested that you check out SPR Cavitation on You Tube. It shows a rotating drum with holes bored in it in a close fitting sleeve spun at roughly 1500 RPM. This "pump" generates hot water or steam depending on the number of holes.

What drives the cylinder, I believe, is immaterial. But please check out the site. It may give you and your partner ideas.

Regards Dragon

Oh I definetly took a look at it, very interesting! sorry I couldn't get back to you, with the 60+ posts there is so much to read!

Yes, we were a little inspired and considered doing a series of cans with holes in them... we still are in the midst of developing the design to be prototyped so this design idea may come into effect... We'll just have to see

Thanks!

Melanie (& Duncan)

Interesting. One of the sites that pops up is this. Towards the end it contains the words that many people on CR4 love (not) so much - " Over Unity ".

Melanie, welcome to the twilight zone !

Arrrrgh!!!

I looked into this last night, and I am tempted to call the people promoting the concept today (they are just about an hour from here). I note that Griggs, the inventor, is no longer with the company, and he seems to be the one who made the over unity claims. I have some contacts at Georgia Tech, so I may see if the prof from there is rumored to have witnessed an over-unity demonstration actually did.

Dear Melanie.Massey, Please log on to You Tube and find the site "SPR Cavitation.

Dragon

Have a look here:-

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/17270

especially at Lapinbleu 's reply #1

You don't need friction in the sense of solid surfaces rubbing together (which would cause wear anyway). You can convert mechanical energy to heat by turbulent stirring as in joule's classic experiment on the equivalence of mechanical and heat energy. There's a description at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Prescott_Joule

My dear Melanie

I think you can not heat water even up to more than 5 degree through friction.I wish good luck to you.

Regards

C.S. PANT

Someone who has used a works mobile fire appliance to pressure-test a factory water main during a low-demand period would tend to disagree here.....

Just remember that you can't increase the energy of the water more than the energy you put into it (obviously!!) Heat is the most degenerate form of energy because it is the least ordered ,so converting any energy to heat is easy- you just need to dissipate it (in most applications, but not this one, that means wasting it!). So long as you put mechanical energy into the water (by stirring turbulently, for example) and no mechanical energy comes back out again, all the energy input will convert to heat.

Absolutely! Seeing steam come out the back of this particular fire engine was a wonderful learning experience. There was lots of pressure, which was wanted, and the water wasn't going anywhere despite the pump running hard, which was a problem; the action of the pump's rotor was simply to heat it all up. Which is along the same sort of lines as the original post, really, though on a much bigger scale.

The fire officer operating the engine was getting more than a little concerned about the longevity of the equipment..............

In that case, you will enjoy this post.

Hi Melanie,

FYI take a look at US Pat. 1,952,281 " Method and apparatus for obtaining from a fluid under pressure two currents of fluids at different temperatures" patented by Georges Joseph Rangue Mar.27, 1934.

Good luck on your endeavours and Happy St Valentine

Vince

Hi, this sounds like a great project for discovering all sorts of things or are you looking at it as a serious future water heater? Then take a look at the overall efficiency [energy put in at the beginning of the system (to drive the axle) against temp rise in the water] there are mechanical losses, an electrical element is hard to beat in efficiency at >95%.

Any way in answer to 'On an axle rotated by an elastic band, is it more effective to have the band level with the axle or on a different level?'

The belt drive (your elastic band) should be at right angles to the C/L [Center Line] of the shaft to be most efficient. Efficiency will not be effected by its 'orbit' position around the shaft.

'If I was to enlarge the diameter of the part of the axle being rotated by the elastic, what would the benefits be?'

If the drive 'wheel' [pulley / shaft diameter or number of gear teeth] is larger than the one being driven [the driven wheel] the output speed will be faster than the input speed [by the ratio of the pulley radius's] If it is the other way round the output speed / rpm [revolutions per minute] would be lower but have more turning power [torque]

Think of a bicycle gearing system, one peddles many times to easily cycle slowly up the hill.

The width of the band [belt] is relevant to the amount of power you wish to transmit, use a wider band or more of them to transmit more power, they will begin to slip if you overload them.

Lastly you may Google and find of interest FRICTION WELDING, two metals can be spun against each other or a tool to generate enough heat to melt them together. It shows how much heat can be generated by friction.

Hi Melanie,

I admire your courage and determination. Don't give up, even if practically you cannot achieve much. Trial and failure is a good way to learn, combined with reading. But remember: whatever experiment you do, stay safe!

To answer to your title-question: yes, it is possible to heat (voluntarily or not) water through friction, but in different ways than you think.

First way is to pump a flow of water through a large pipe connected to a much smaller pipe (1/4 or less diameter ratio). Friction between water and the wall of the smaller pipe generates heat. If the smaller pipe is a serpentine inside your can, than you may transfer that heat to whatever liquid is inside. Copper pipes are preffered. The only condition is to maintain the flow in a closed circuit.

Second way is to take the same pipe setup filled with water, but instead of having a flow inside, to generate sound-like vibration at one end and to plug the other end of the small pipe. Due to water compressibility, waves are traveling back and forth through the pipes. The smaller diameter pipe becomes hot due to thermo-sonicity (actually another form of friction). Go to wikipedia and search for sonicity. Sonic circuits can be calculated much like electric ones, as the discoverer of sonicity (inventor G. Constantinescu) proved. You can do some research at a library on this subject.

For your experiment, I would weld together some plumbing copper pipes (ask a plumber or someone skilled - don't play with the propane welding torch!) to make something like this:

The membrane (rubber from a wheel tube) can be pushed back and forth by a cam connected to a shaft that is driven by some rubber strip recoil such as this:

http://www.turnertoys.com/G1/balsa_model_airplanes3.htm

In a well-tuned setup and appropriate input power, temperatures of the thin tube as high as 300° C can be achieved (much higher than the boiling point of water inside!

A third way to generate (unwillingly) heat inside a fluid is through cavitation and diesel effect that occurs in high-pressure hydraulics when the working fluid is having air bubbles (aeration). You can google these terms just for learning purposes, but I don't think such materials (high-pressure hydraulic components) are available to you. A lot of safety issues are also related to this field.

I wish you good luck and please keep us informed on the progress of your project.

Michael

The petcock is a brilliant idea, thanks!

Hmm.. The idea of using non-newtonian liquids is also very intriguing. My partner and I will definetly experiment with a corn-startch-water solution.

We'll also try experimenting with the inside canister spinning, as opposed to the outside one. My only concern is it'll make a mess because the outer can has no way of being completely sealed...

thank you again, though, I'll be sure to post any new ideas or advancements, look forward to pictures once the prototype is done.. :)

Melanie (&Duncan)

<....look forward to pictures once the prototype is done...>

Yes please! That would be of great interest.

I think you have enough good info already from the previous posters, so all I wish to do is encourage your scientist-to-be-ness (you already are one, just nobody ever made it official by telling you so, but anyone who does science is by default a scientist). Also to congratulate you on registering here as a member rather than asking questions as a guest (we have SO many of them...), and coming up with such an intriguing project. PLEASE do let us all know what happens?

Yes sounds like a good project should be able to heat some water.

But here are some thoughts if you place the water in the cans and spin them then the water will be moving all so. May make a mess. How about holding the can stationary and rotating the friction plate against it.

Lots of great suggestion but this can be very difficult. Some university students tryed it with a bicycle and clutch pads to find out that the best athlete could hardly boil the water. Their conclusion was that they needed to have a good insulation and heat recovery from the exhaust to intake water (continuous flow system). They also found out that minimizing the volume of water and the heater was better as they could reach boiling temperature faster. They were looking at using only one or two cc with high intensity friction plates. Minimize shaft thermal conduction as it will be a major heat loss path.

Be careful with anything mechanical and with stored energy in springs and large rubber bands. Use strong guards around these parts.

Have fun!

Well I have had it now the real deal will come out and you all will look up at me with anticipation and say why didn't I think of that. look on youtube and go to water hammer. End of story.

<...a bicycle and clutch pads to find out that the best athlete could hardly boil the water....>

A weekend casual cyclist could sustain a shaft-work output of, say, 50-80W (50-80 joules per second) over time, with short bursts to, say 135W for hill-climbing, depending on age, personal fitness and self-motivation. Now, some of that power is going to be lost stirring air, partly with the movement of the wheels' spokes and tyres, and partly with the cyclist's movement through a four-dimensional spacetime that contains a viscous fluid. Another packet of power is going to be lost as friction in the bearings and the tyres where they contact the road surface.

A stationary cyclist is going to save the four-dimensional spacetime losses, though greater upwards convection is going to be needed to keep the cyclist cool.

So say 100W is available to reach and sustain boiling. In order for the water to boil, insulation must be sufficient at the boiling temperature for losses to be lower than 100W. While it could be achieved, it's going to be an involved process getting there.

Very interesting, thank you very much for this :) I've heard of the bike experiment before, but not in any detail... I heard that after about an hour the demonstrater was sweating like mad and the water still hadn't reached 100degC!

One of the main focal points of our (Duncan&I) project is that we only have to heat water to 70degC, so this should make it easier to reach and insulate. We'll also try to make it more efficient, if possible, than the other design (however this might be difficult... doing a better job than university students??) by using simple gear/axle ratios and non-newtonian liquids (still to be tested).

The ramming pump simply uses the momentum of a large flow of low pressure liquid to produce a low flow at higher pressure one. The energy is conserved (less the losses) but the water is wasted.

It works like the switching power supply in your computer, or the AC motor drives... Sorry Melanie, we got carried away here. I doubt that you are ready for a degree in power electronics. Maybe in a few years.

Good luck Melanie,

Remember to keep it simple. Forget about the friction per sé, just create turbulence in the water, and, insulate it well. The mechanical energy must get transformed into heat energy (otherwise where else will it go): look at the links to Lapinbleu and Joule. Keep frictional losses external to the energy exchange system to a minimum, again as per Lapinbleu: a single axis with drive source on one end and paddles on the other should work best; his idea of using a rear car axle from a scrap yard must be about as cheap as you can get.

Think about it again Melanie: where do you think the mechanical (kinetic) energy goes if it doesn't end up as heat?

The energy used to agitate the fluid will produce heat. But you will want to avoid producing too many bubbles, as this increases the rate of evaporation. This is why you might in principle wish to use vanes that are entirely under the surface of the water.

Personally, I would avoid any energy-dissipation method that involves banging cans together, as the damage generated is likely to exceed the useful heat produced. The same applies to friction between the cans - the surfaces are not designed for this, and the plating would soon flake and then act as a supplementary abrasive.

Energy dissipation in a fluid remains the least damaging way of converting mechanical energy to heat. The secret is to minimise the gap between the surfaces that "shear" the fluid*, and of course to maximise the areas of these surfaces. That will maximise the resistance at any given speed differential. With luck you may even find you don't need a non-Newtonian fluid to generate the optimum force.

*It may be a paradox, but cavitation will normally occur at lower differential velocities when the gap is large than when it is small.

Hi Melanie & Duncan,

Re:#59 This is where we get theoretical; when one puts water 'in a bowl and beats it with an electric stirrer' the agitation will rise the temp ever so slightly, as stated the energy has to go somewhere. It will go to movement (the majority) but also sound, heat and stored potential. The atoms produce heat as they pass / forced over each other just as you get heat when rubbing your hands together. Your can / water heating experiment is extracting / collecting the heat produced during this process.

Now some how a post I entered earlier never arrived, so in addition: [sorry ]

May be I have not fully understood your driving method, you say: [at one end] The elastic will be hooked to the ground or some other object (e.g. a tree). Do you mean just hooked over a branch, I am afraid that way you would have a lot of drag, friction wasting energy, but you could replace this end with a pulley 'hooked to the ground or some other object.' Why not mount your can / pivot firmly to the tree then move the axle / drive wheel away from the tree to keep the drive belt [elastic bands] tight.

I do wonder about your drive system, it is important to get as much energy to the cans without loosing in on the way with drive losses. That is why possibly starting with a bicycle is handy as it is efficient as one can easily get, plus you have a gearing system. If you mounted the cans & their pivot base firmly you could use the bicycle wheel / tyre directly on the outer can to drive it, rather like driving a wheel dynamo.

Re:#8 Also have I misunderstood your statement - 'wind energy is a very expensive commodity' it's free surely? The best part (as long as there is wind) is it will go on putting energy into a system night & day so the small inputs mount up, with hand power one is restricted.

Re:#13 Cotton (when it is dry) has a fairly good factor of insulation, it's the evaporation of the water removing the heat when you get wet sailing. Try wool cuttings or loft insulation [but please not the glass fibres type!]

I am sorry, my posts tend to be so long zzzzzzzzzzz

p.s. Nice example Guest #63

No, long posts are great, thanks :)

Well I mean to say that wind power will have expensive startup fees, with the machinery required to both generate the energy and then convert it to electric.

I dont think we'd be losing much energy by hooking it to a tree... the tree won't be driving it or anything... just there to hold the elastic in place..

I'll write some more later i have to go...

thanks again.

I'm puzzled: if the objective is hot water, why would electricity be involved? Just have an insulated tank the appropriate size, and convert the mechanical energy directly to heat.

Please remember that Duncan & I are trying to be as cost-efficient as possible.

This just doesn't seem plausible with the available means.

We have already state that we are not interested in wind energy. Thanks.

I've no problem with your not wishing to use wind power - it may well be a sensible decision; but I was simply pointing out that post #70 gives a reason for high cost that doesn't hold water (should that be wind?). The habit of properly reasoned decisions and explanations is well worth developing (as may be that of not jumping down peoples throats).

I think the guest's point is that the fewer energy conversions, the better. His idea is well-supported by thousands of observations in engineering and science. It doesn't matter if you use a windmill, a human, a dropping weight, or a donkey to provide the mechanical energy... the most efficient means of energy conversion is the most direct. If you want to go from mechanical energy (wind, hydro, human power turning a crank, etc) to heat, then the most efficiency way will be to do so directly.

In Joule's apparatus above, all the potential energy of the falling weight is converted to heat in the water. It's not magic -- the energy cannot simply disappear. His tank does not appear well-insulated, but if it were, and if the shaft were relatively small, of average thermal conductivity, and also insulated, then the efficiency of mechanical energy to heat would be very high. Anything you put in between (such as an electrical generator) will simply lower that efficiency.

You might take a look at my post #71 above, which I inadvertently marked as off- topic. It is actually squarely on topic.

I think there is a little misunderstanding about what the guest #74 & I meant by wind power, you can power devices direct - such as water pumps in a field for irrigation. Wind power does not mean you have to produce electricity first & then use that electricity. As in the Lapinbleu setup.

However I take you point about cost / expensive start-up fees ( it was even me who brought it to others attention! ] So it is not for the moment but it could be an alternative way of driving it. This would mean one was producing heat why you were away. Call it a future development, these are worth thinking about during early stages as they may affect the way you construct you prototype / first model for future experiments. [A lesson I learnt in Research & Development work]

Sorry, I am still confused about this tree and the elastic band! I know 'the tree won't be driving it or anything', but if the band is just slipping round the tree / branch it will eat up energy, you will be actually heating up the tree branch - this is wasted energy. A cheap pulley from a sailing boat would be much more efficient. Maybe I have misunderstood the setup. Note: (thank you Ken) see the way the pulley is used in the drawing above to save energy loss. The cord is not simply passed over a bar.

[ p.s. In reply to #76 - hopefully we are adult enough to accept a direct answer, I am sure it was not intended to offend, re:'Thanks'.]

<....it would be the same as putting water in a bowl and beating it with an electric stirrer, which doesn't heat it up at all...>

Actually it does raise the temperature, though the rise is so small it hasn't been detected yet!

If I may be so bold gentlemen, Melanie is a 15 year old scientist who can think on her feet! If it's for countries like Africa, then in the middle of nowhere, where are they going to find large quantities of water? If the supply is from a well which is driven by a small windmill, why not use the power of the mill to drive the system? If it's a hand pump then the quantity of water will be small so I assume you could have a hand cranked small tin can arrangement which may hold a few litres.......wait....I've got it!

How about two horizontal rollers that can be driven by any bike? The axle of one roller is connected to the can system with the Newtonian fluid! When you have finished with it, ride home on the bike! It's just a simple wood frame with a couple of rough turned wooden logs with any odd round bits of bar for the stub axles, one being a bit longer with a wooden pulley (or car pulley, etc) attached to the end! The band (belt) could do a 90 deg twist on to another wooden pulley (or car pulley, etc) and drive the scaled down 'system'!

If on the other end of the roller you had a big round weight then once you got some good inertia going this would help!

Hello,

On an axle rotated by an elastic band, is it more effective to have the band level with the axle or on a different level?

Precisely level need not be but do twist the band, not so makes and "X" but that there is a twist in each side between the shafts. This technique eliminates vibration of the band, prevents the band from wandering and loss of energy.

Keep your point sharp...

Now that, 'Twist the band, 1/2 turn on each side, to eliminate vibration ..", is one I would never have thought of in a million years, and yet I've seen just that happen, in the past. That is one excellent thought.

Have you ever noticed the heat generated by a bicycle pump ? You could modify the flexible adaptor, so that 2 pumps are connected 'nose-to -nose'. The coupling could be enclosed by a water filled container. If desired, the pump could be connected by a linkage to a bike. I don't think you'll get a lot of hot water, but it could work - try pumping a pump with just an adaptor on the end, the metal part soon gets too hot to touch to the lips.

Kris

just a couple of extra "two cents" -

much of the discussion is pointing to the need for compression during the operation to convert the mechanical energy - given that you can provide some continuing energy aka the elastic band, belts, horizontal bicycle chain etc -

Plastic materials can be heated several hundreds of degrees in a 'rotary extruder' which relies on circular segments not necessarily concentric to one another to induce compression during the 'spin cycle' - the same thing that happens when a volume of material is squeezed quickly through a small orifice - some of the mechanical energy required to increase the speed with which it exits (since you won't compress the liquid) is converted to heat -

your efforts are quite commendable - good luck; also be sure to involve someone around you as you achieve measureable and sustainable successes; someone who is trustworthly to help you produce a 'provisional patent' for your efforts which will set a date 'stake in the ground' for you to eventually patent any truly new and innovative outcomes - good luck

Jim Wilson

Hello everyone, me again, I'd just like to thank you all for your input! Its hard for me to reply to every post, but please know that I've read them all. There are some very brilliant ideas in here :)

I'll be putting up some sort of site with what Duncan & I have so far, just to organize the ideas that have been building up in this discussion board...

Thanks again!

Melanie

Melanie,

You're a great addition. Please come back and participate as you can.

Hello everyone,

Duncan and I have decided to do a vertical design, as opposed to a horizontal one... it will just make it easier to load and unload with water. We have also decided to try the non-newtonian liquid idea, but if someone could give us a scientific explanation of this and how it works it would help solve our curiosity about it :)

We have some more questions!

• Because of the now vertical design of our system, we require bearings. Where can we buy these? (We're thinking maybe 1-2 cm diameter ones). Duncan and I are located in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, so local places would be nice. The alternative would be ripping them off my old skateboard... thoughts on this?
• We did some calculations, and found that to heat 1 kg of water (or 1 L) we need to use about 57 calories of energy... this seems like a lot! How will we do this using rubber bands?
• If not, we have decided to first heat the water using solar energy (which will also expose it to UV and kill more bacteria) before pouring it into the machine. This may be a little difficult to test because of the freezing Canadian winter occuring right now, but I'm sure we'll find a way around it...
• Important: We're going to need a LARGE can, preferably resealable. Any ideas? (This is probably the most important part so far, as we can't begin experimenting without one!!)
• Does anyone have thoughts on insulation? We're thinking of using some old stuff found in my basement, maybe clothing, but we might be able to find some of that fluffy pink insulation from old renovations... we'll tie it on with string and maybe use some glue (contact cement or apoxy)
• Are there any thoughts on stopping leakage? Because of the vertical design both the water and non-newtonian liquid solution may start to leak. An airtight bearing sounds good but its hard to locate at the moment. Ideas for seals?
• Any other suggestions are much desired :)

Thanks a bunch. We will post pictures of the first prototype soon, hopefully before friday.

Melanie (&Duncan)

For the bearings, how about the headset on a push bike? Adjustable, and you could cut the handlebars off and ram a bit of broom handle into the hole to be a drive shaft of some sort! If you could modify the forks a bit, then you could attach the can with all the vanes to it! And as a bonus, it even has a frame attached for supporting the whole assembly!