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Under spec capacitor.

04/24/2008 1:47 PM

My DVD player broke down. I am unskilled with electronics but opened the box in any case and a capacitor looked suspicious. I went to the shop and bought one, replaced it and I have it working again.

Because I did not know I did not think the temperature rating was important and bought the highest one available.

The cap is 220 micro farad 400 volt. 105 deg C

My question is what will happen because I replace it with a 85deg C one? When will it pop?

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#1

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/24/2008 2:42 PM

It may well be fine... it depends on what its application is.

What do you mean the old one looked suspicious? was it just two wires on the pcb a can and a load of unravelled papery stuff?

Seriously though, if its rated at 105*C and 220uF at 400V it sounds like the power supply capacitor, if its a switch mode supply the heat build up inside the capacitor can cause problems...

At worst it will POP! and you will know exactly what needs replacing, it might last 5 years or only 5 hours...

If it works quickly sell it on ebay... No, No, I didn't say that!!

Spend you time leisurely looking for a higher temperature version, just in case...

John.

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#2

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/24/2008 2:45 PM

86 deg C?

I wouldn't worry about it. If the player was getting that hot you would know it, and a lot more components would have blown (85 deg C isn't just "uncomfortable to the touch", it's downright painful).

At a guess, the cap was in the power-supply section; and probably got nailed by a power spike.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/24/2008 4:15 PM

I agree.

The power spike would have had it no matter what the temp rating was. It probably never sees more than between 40 and 60deg C. Any cap can do that.

Also being a 400v AT 220Mf, power in SA is 220V (am I correct or is it 110V?)

That already means it is nominally working at only half its full rated voltage. 50% Volts = 50% the heat.

Just look for a good one if you feel unhappy about it but either way you need some credit man for replacing it and not chucking it out.

Hendrik, you are THE MAN!

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/25/2008 7:26 AM

Case491 in a switch mode power supply the input capacitor is used to filter the incoming full bridge rectified mains, so the voltage on that capacitor is about 350 volts.

The ripple current will cause the capacitor to heat up depending on the ESR of the capacitor, a low ESR capacitor is normally used in this application to reduce temperature build up.

I stick with my previous post about keeping an eye on it and replacing it when possible / necessary.

John.

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#13
In reply to #8

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/26/2008 2:06 PM

Hi case & enviroman - My wife say I am cheap.

Actually I am an original DEY (do everything yourselves).

My success rater is 'phenomenal'. I almost fix it every time.

Almost with the TV, almost with the 2 way radio, almost with the laptop, almost with the kettle.

The transmitter part of the 2 way radio is working but the receiver is completely at the wrong frequency.

The TV. I realized the thing with the 3 legs near that dangerous coil was at fault. The first replacement lasted 2 min, the next 10 and the last 30min (thanks to a modified mega heatsink). I bought a new TV because of a rugby test.

I am still struggling to find the screws to open the laptop.

The kettle - no luck.

Should I open a repair shop for a retirement job?

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/26/2008 2:10 PM

I have a similar track record.

For the laptop I know a solution, find yourself a 8 by 6 feet concrete patio and "accidentally" drop it. It will open itself

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#19
In reply to #13

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/28/2008 12:19 PM

"Should I open a repair shop for a retirement job?"

Depends - if you can survive 100% on pension, it might make a pretty good hobby - just don't ever offer a "replaced if broken" warranty!

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#10
In reply to #3

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/25/2008 4:39 PM

"...either way you need some credit man for replacing it and not chucking it out."

Hendrik, you are THE MAN!

CONCUR!!! (And since you are in the southern hemisphere... )

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/26/2008 2:00 PM

I am on the equator.

To the east of you

To the west of you.

Sorry not realy, I just wanna do this so I knew I could do it

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#4

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/24/2008 5:29 PM

The 105C is the better part, and you can find it at Digikey or other mail order place.

Basically electrolytic caps are rated at working at so many degrees for so many hours, for example, 2000 hours at 85 degrees would be the rating for a lower quality part while 8000 hours at 105 degrees would be a much better part.

The temperature rating doesn't mean that as long as you're below 85C you're OK, it just means that the part is rated to work at 85C for some number of hours.

I wouldn't worry about it. Electrolytic capacitors in consumer devices are notoriously lousy. If it fails again, you know what to do.

If you are going to worry about it, you can look up the part you replaced and see what it's hours/temp rating is on its data sheet, and order a similar or better part.

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#5

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/24/2008 5:47 PM

The DVD got zapped during an electric storm.

John - my impression was that it looked pregnant.

Officially we have 230 volt or better.

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#6

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/25/2008 5:18 AM

It's life would be a bit shorter. The temperature inside a device can be significantly higher than the environmental temperature. Electrolytic capacitors tend to "dry out" and in this case their ESR (equivalent serial resistance) would grow and that decreases the efficiency of the capacitor (according the values I guess it's a buffer capacitor in the power supply). The visible sign is the bulged out top of the capacitor.

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#7

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/25/2008 7:19 AM

As has been stated the part will work but the lifetime of the part will be reduced. A general rule of thumb is the lifetime doubles for every 10°C below it's rating. Example an 85°C 1000 hour cap should have a life of about 4000 hours at 65°C while a 1000 hour 105°C cap should have a 16000 hour life at 65°C. Obviously there are a lot of other factors that effect the lifetime of an electrolytic capacitor. My suggestion is to leave it for now, maybe it had some other defect? If it was "bloated" that could be a sign of a different failure as an electrolytic doesn't necessarily do that at end of life. In fact end of life is really just means that the capacitor no longer meets the capacitance tolerance, i.e. a 100uF cap may only measure 80uF. At any rate enjoy your revived DVD player.

Shawn

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#9

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/25/2008 2:07 PM

These people have a large selection of hard to find electrical stuff.........I've used them for years.....

Ford Electronics Inc.

We are a electronic parts distributor based in Buena Park, Califonia. We carry such products as Xcelite, Chemtronics, Phillips ECG, NTE, Weller,

www.fordelectronics.com

MR. GUY

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#11

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/26/2008 9:24 AM

As in many cases, the wonderful brain power of the CR4 gave the right answer. A mention for bravery to Hendrik.

The filter capacitor, in a rectifying unit, will be charged to the peak voltage during the voltage increase, and discharged to the load in the "voltage remission". That will imply a ripple current into the capacitor. Good manufacturers will mention the ripple current limits for a certain brand of C. Electroman pointed to Equivalent Series Resistance of the C. The lower is, the less losses will incur. (Allow me to remind you that, in an ideal C, the current and voltage are 90° out of phase, and therefore, no active power loss). Less losses means less heat, and as Shawn33 mentioned, life expectancy will decrease with temperature increase. A 105°C capacitor is better manufactured, will take a higher current ripple and will last longer. Not to mention the aging effect…but this is for C, only. Wine and engineers are better with the left-to-right move on the horizontal coordinate (time).

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#15

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/27/2008 8:21 AM

I wouldn't worry about swapping it unless it fails again, maybe after five years of being on 24/7 .. or one nasty spike, which will kill a 105 degree just as easily.

Low ESR is far more important in switch mode secondarys than it is at 50Hz and I wouldn't use an 85 degree cap in a switch mode.

The cap is doing exactly the job it was designed for at 50Hz + harmonics

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#16

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/27/2008 9:22 AM

Thanks everyone.

I told my wife it won't last. Now it is a question what will give in first:- me or the cap.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/27/2008 4:32 PM

Your route to immortality depends on your success with making that cap promise to come here and continue your quest in case you pop first

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I like the cap better

Just kidding, I hope that cap blows tommorow.......erm that didn't sound good either. I'll shut up now

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#18

Re: Under spec capacitor.

04/27/2008 4:34 PM

Hendrik! Don't worry. First of all, any repair is better, than no repair! Then, these critters are tested to death in furnace conditions (more exactly, if you stack them 20 high with no air inbetween, same thing).

You want to avoid a repetition? Get an isolation transformer for your stuff you like to keep. By that I mean the real thing, one coil on this leg, another on that leg of the iron. That will keep capacitance to minimum from power to your sensitive equipment. Good insurance.

If you care to go firesure, deluxe, check out www.zerosurge.com. This is an engineer funded and run outfit of excellent products. And no, I do not know him from Adam.

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bhankiii (1); case491 (4); Electroman (2); EnviroMan (2); Hendrik (3); indel (1); Kilowatt0 (1); leveles (1); Mr. Guy (1); Qqberci (1); Shawn33 (1); stoney (1)

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