Snooker

Side actually. But these guys seem to suggest it happens when they play plain ball no side. You can see that the angle doesn`t seem to deviate from expected but there is an apparent increase in speed. Commentators can`t understand physics?

I reckon the Crucible cushions are like the bumpers on a pinball table!

As long as the felt has no active components in it, I cannot for the life of me believe that the ball is any faster off the cushion than it was beforehand as surely the ball can only transmit the amount of energy it has already, into the cushion, compressing it.

The cushion when uncompressing can hardly give more energy back than it got, probably a few percent less for a top grade cushion.....and much less for an old worn out example....

Just a thought....

No as far as I am aware, this terminology is not used for spin......

.....and he does not mention spin either.

Do you play the table game "Snooker" in the USA anywhere? If the answer is yes, then it would appear that I visited the wrong bars on my many visits!!

For anyone who has not got a clue about this, you will find a good explanation of the game of Snooker here.

I've never seen it played anywhere here. We mostly play 8-ball, 9-ball, and straight pool. But, the basics are the same no matter the game. The sudden speed increase after a bank (carom) is due to angular momentum being suddenly converted to linear momentum. But, the OP says there was no spin. So...

The game was once quite popular here...if by here you mean US. My guess would be that the game originated here as well...but you'd probably want to look it up. The pool forms you mentioned are, of course, good vending machine games. They're quick games so the coin slots (and the tavern/parlor owner) are frequently fed.

No one?

My guess would be that the game originated here as well.

Nope, if I remember correctly invented by British army officer: Neville Chamberlain (no relation) in India.

Give yourself a snooker bar...for not falling for that snooker.

Game's over.

Nope, if I remember correctly invented by British army officer: Neville Chamberlain (no relation) in India.

Might I ask when? This might explain why it was important in the US... a colloquialism as "I got snookered"?

I would like to propose that Snooker went to Australia ( and possibly to NZ) through the British empire.

During the 2nd world war, we had many troops stationed there who certainly recognized the resemblance to pool... and transported it back to the US.

Of course most of those folk are dead now, and the Snooker table has gone out the back door.

Any comments?

Bill

1875

http://www.titansports.co.uk/history/snooker.htm

`My comment is:- Its been "Snookered" in the USA......?

Long ago and far away there were snooker tables at a college bar in West Lafayette, Indiana - Purdue University, my alma mater.

Bobguz

Once upon a time in Eugene Oregon, there was Lucky's Club Cigar. Smokey place with stale bud on tap for $.75 a draw. They had two snooker tables there. along wth 10 stanard billiard tables.

You could swear a blue streak and nobody would give it a second thought, but if you whistled......out on your ear. The Bartender would not stand for anyone whistling.

I found a snooker table in a bar in Gooding Idaho back about 1965, but that is the only one I have seen in the US. Mostly they play straight pool. I think pool is easier to play while intoxicated.

WOW!! That was back in my wild and roudy days, when I was known as "Wild Bill", before I became a mellow fellow.

Cheers

Bill

It is quite possible that the player merely experienced an optical illusion. More than likely, the incident speed of the cue ball when striking the cushion exceeded the speed of the ball when leaving the cushion. Seems rather strange that only one of players perceived an increasing speed of the ball when leaving the cushion. (One player out of how many in the championship?)

If this were put to an empirical test, rather than the subjective interpretation of just one player, I doubt the test would prove the player correct in his/her perception. Consider opposing cushions just a few inches apart with a ball striking the first, then accelerating, only to strike the second cushion, then accelerating before striking another cushion, etc.; how many cushion hits before the ball would achieve the speed of light? Hmmmm...that would be approaching the speed of the cue ball when I break a rack.)

.............and the cue ball disappears over the end of the table..........and who knows where it lands!!!!!

It depends on the spin on the cue ball when it hits the cush. The spin that the cue ball has when it does hit the cush depends on the initial spin that it had when it left the cue tip, the angle at which it hits a contact ball, the speed at which the ball travels and the length of table that the ball travels prior to hitting the cush.

Billard balls with spot or band are excellent for appreciating the spin that the ball has at any one time. Easier to appreciate on a billard table than a pool table due to the smaller balls and the longer travel lengths.

Initial spin: this is fairly evident to anyone who has played snooker, pool etc. top, screw, stun (effectively a lesser screw), left hand side, right hand side. This imparts an initial axis of spin to the cue ball which is modified as the ball travels across the table to the contact ball through friction between the cloth and the cue ball. If the ball was able to travel a sufficient length, ultimately the ball would possess only top spin equal to the rolling speed of the ball. This does occur with soft shots which travel the length of the table with very little initial spin.

Angle of hit: assuming a frictionless contact (which is not completely accurate as side can be transmitted in small amounts to the contact ball) the axis of rotation stays as it was but the direction of travel changes. Thus the axis of rotation changes with respect to the direction of travel. When the ball does hit the cush, it has a different kind of spin to that initially imparted.

This still does not explain why a professional player is surprised by the spin. That part I would suggest is due to the brand new cushions and cloth that are laid at the beginning of the tournament, the very bright lights that television requires and the varying humidity that the Crucible produces due to the crowds. The Crucible is a theatre and is different to the normal event spaces. It has a relatively low roof and is what we could call intimate. I wonder if the high humidity and high temperature at different times of the day are at odds with the practice tables. These two atmospheric conditions change the cloth friction quite radically.

Its only the start of a discussion.

For some reason, that player thought he'd entered a snooker pinball gallery.

How is it possible? The player, attempting carom shots, needed excuse for his shots not arriving with enough soft.

Or the table was not level.

Spin Shmin! English Shmenglish! (English, not Yiddish, course)

We need to get a hold of that table - and - build a perpetual motion machine!

Probably some of the kinetic energy of rotation is converted to kinetic energy of linear motion when it bounces off the cushion, thus enhancing its speed, but reducing its spin. You can see the effect with a fast spinning top. Even if its linear motion is slow, as soon as it hits a wall, it bounces off at higher linear speed.

Conservation of momentum.

Bobguz

Strangely enough even today the same thing has been mentioned by commentators on both BBC and Eurosport. Perhaps what they should be saying is that the speed off the cushion is surprisingly faster than usual for that particular area of that cushion. Should there be any difference for centre or ends of the cushion? Usually top players can judge pace to get their position extremely accurately and as such show surprise when 3-4 inches out. Perhaps atmospherics play a part after all. The speed of a club table does seem to change with the weather and temperature.

Would not there be a variation between new tables and old tables with the aging of the cushion material?

Are tournaments always played on new tables?

Yes snooker World Tournaments use brand new cloths on brand new tables but I do seem to remember a previous year when sufficient players complained and the cloth was changed. The players usually have their own tables and regularly change to new cloths to practice on.

My personal bet, assuming that spin for a moment is not the only change as spin has been used for many many many years without these comments from players and commentators......

Among the things spin can be used for is to make a cue ball stop quicker, turn and to follow on when required......

Spin is not the difference we need to find....

My personal bet is that the modern cushions are giving more of the energy back to the ball than before. eg. Working more efficiently. Nothing more, nothing less.....

Next you'll need cushion performance ratings and and regulations rather allowable preferences (:

I think not. As a cushion, a perfect cushion (if such a thing actually exists!) can only give back what it was given at impact time in the first place.......so although direction changes with cushion contact, speed (with a perfect cushion) will hardly change......

At least thats my 2 Cents worth!!!

I expect there are regs. for height/length, width etc.., but how "Bouncy"? Maybe not!!

There is an interesting Treatise on Snooker tables with a little bit about Cushions (or Rails as the US calls them) here.

The only way that a ball will gain speed is to convert spin to linear movement.

If you have a high left spin and shooting down and into the right hand rail the spin will give a kick to the ball as it leaves the rail.

You just cannot get more energy than you give.

You can use high English, low English, left or right, or a combination, and by imparting spin you give the ball more energy that would appear by the linear speed.

English left and right

Top spin follow

Bottom spin draw

Anyway, the spin thing is immaterial. When spin causes a ball to launch airborne off the cushion it can give the sense of accelerating. It all a perceptual thing only.

Isn't this just a question of perception, the ball is coming off the cushion faster than the player expected it to rather than faster than it arrived. The modern championship tables as being used in the current match at Sheffield's Crucible use much thinner cloths than before which cause less drag on the ball. This allows more spin to be carried by the ball even if the player did not mean it to.

One commentator mentioned that the cloths had been changed during the current championship because of complaints but the speed of the tables is still high.

With regard to the comments about the origins of snooker didn't Mr Chamberlain base the game on billiards which has been around since the 1400s?

For more history on the subject, look at my post # 26 I believe and click on the highlighted "here."

I don't know about snooker but I assume the rails should be similar to pool tables. The rail bumpers should be made of a good grade gum rubber. I'm not sure of the rubber specs, their tolerances, or the variation among tables throughout the industry.

What you could be seeing during this instance is a bumper with faster hysteresis rate. That would return more of the balls impact energy back into the ball, thus giving it more bounce. A slower hysteresis rate (as would be been with PU foam or visco elastic memory foams) would return the impact energy over a greater time, thus returning the ball slower.

See Elastic Hysteresis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis

Accoding to Wikipedia, the cushions (rails) are very similar and are made of vulcanised rubber.

The perceived speed seems to at least partly due to the new thinner cloth used on the tables I suspect.....which is slowing the ball down less than before!!

real snooker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X17uZKeZ2M&NR=1

Well, if anyone has played snooker it's alot harder than pool and even the smallest thing can throw off your game. The tables are bigger, balls smaller and holes tighter. He was probably just a new player at his first tournament and not used to the felt and bumbers on this table. Different tables will react differently, but a ball striking a bumber at near 90 degrees without back-spin, slanted floor, etc, shouldn't gain speed. Personally, I wouldn't believe the commentators much and they probably mistaken his stocked look.

The comments have reportedly come from the players including Stephen Hendry & Mark Williams. The Crucible where the current championship is taking place has just had a new concrete floor laid & great effort was made to ensure that it is level. The tables are individually levelled to ensure that there is no bias.

I play at least 3 hrs. a day on a 4 1/2x9' table. I have to drive 12 miles to find a snooker table to play on and when I do I find the younger crowd playing "golf" on them. Each player has one ball and the first to make his ball in each of the eight pockets wins the match.- And the money.- The trick here is to leave no shot for the next player. Most of the youngsters don't know what the red balls are even for.

To answer the original post it is possible to speed up the object ball by using extreme right or left spin (English) on the Que ball. This is noticed only on the second rail contacted in the corner pockets only. The extreme spin on the ball hitting the second rail will accelerate the ball coming off of the cushion. The spin on the Q ball has to be opposite the corner of the first rail hit. In other words if the corner pocket is on your left hit the Q ball into the object ball with English on your right. If you use left English it will do what we call "kill" the speed of the ball leaving the first rail. How do you think I was named Misplayed?

Our best players on this side of the Pond- Allison Fisher (UK) Karen Corr (Germany ?) all started on the difficult snooker tables.

If you will examine the question closely, you will see that the player whose comment started the discussion remarked about the "...seemingly increased speed of the cue ball when it left the cushion." Now, does he imply that the ball seemed to leave the cushion faster than when it hit, or does he mean that the ball left the cushion faster than what he was used to experiencing? If, in fact, he meant that the ball left faster than when it struck the rail, he is mistaken, of course. As others have observed it is physically impossible to accelerate the velocity off the rail without some kind of "stored" energy or mechanical advantage. Even the application of "english" will not accelerate the ball after it has struck the cushion. It may change the reactive angle that the ball leaves the cushion, thus negating the old "angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection" theorum, but it will not accellerate.

Conversely, if the velocity appears to be greater now than in the past, this could be a result of more resillient cushion material or a faster grade of cloth. Both these items can give the illusion of a faster ball action, especially the rail cushion material.

"Even the application of "english" will not accelerate the ball after it has struck the cushion. It may change the reactive angle that the ball leaves the cushion, thus negating the old "angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection" theorum, but it will not accellerate."

Actually, this is incorrect. Other factors may affect the appearance of velocity, but english will actually affect the velocity of the ball itself as in how fast it is moving in a direction. Think in terms of surface velocity verses velocity in a direction. As it leaves the rail it is spinning less but moving faster in one direction.

If anyone has any doubt about the skill level in snooker then watch the maximum break Ronnie O`Sullivan scored today. 15 reds with 15 blacks plus all the colours in 8min. This is the 8th time he has done it in professional play.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/snooker/7369420.stm

Several things can have an effect on the spped of a ball coming off the rail. Humidity, the set up of the rail (how tight or loose and what grade of rubber, height), and english. Left and right hand english can increase speed. Follow (often referred to as top spin) can reduce friction between the cloth and ball as it comes off the rail. Draw(often referred to as bottom or back spin) will drive it down into the bed and kill the ball (reduce speed). The lower the rail or the tighter it is wrapped, the better the velocity off the rail. The more humidity, the deader the rail, slower velocity.

All of which of course is relative to the ball striking the rail. If you draw the cue ball, it will impart follow on the object ball; left hand english on the cue ball causes right hand english on the object ball, etc. Draw will cause the cue ball to push through the object ball before reversing direction while follow will cause the cue ball to kick back before following through.

In snooker, some of these effects are more noticeable than in pool/pocket billiards or 3 cushion because the balls are smaller and lighter. Addittionally cue shaft diameters are smaller and capable of generating more force per square unit of area as the tip compresses.... necessary because of the tighter radius of the ball.... etc, etc, etc

My father is a hall of famer who has won titles in every game that involves a cue (but only a couple in billiards and snooker) and I pretty much grew up in a pool room. Having played all my life and been around it all my life, sometimes it still boggles my mind when I realize what is actually going through the head of a player when they are staring at an open rack. Energy transfer, drift, english, throw, all to achieve position on the next ball. Compound that with the fact that pro players are usually looking ahead through the entire rack that way. Chess on steroids. Loads of fun, wish I had time to play more often these days. :)

As the "surprised" people concerned were top players and TV commentators, I do not believe that you know what they did not know!!! Sorry!!

As you yourself (correctly) pointed out, the top players all have a what amounts to "mini computer" in their heads, so to say, just to calculate a shot properly! Therefore these people who are "surprised", are "surprised" for another relatively new reason. Nothing to do with spin.

Spin has been around since before snooker was invented in table games......they are completely used to spin and what spin can do. This is NOT the answer.

Remember also that most of the balls in question are NOT even cue balls!!!

It is quite difficult to give any colored ball spin!!!! Almost impossible at best I would say......and even if it is possible to give a tiny amount of spin to a colored ball, this is also NORMAL (been around for years) and nothing new.

So again I say, you can ignore spin completely......

Therefore, if these top professionals are "surprised" (after many years playing on the snooker table!!) when a colored ball comes off the cushion so fast, then the reasons are to be found elsewhere in things like better cushions, better shaped cushions, thinner cloth, better cloth, better balls etc etc etc.......something in this area has been bettered this year!!!

Eh? What's up with the new spinning colored balls? I've never seen non-spinning colored balls are yours some colored wobble balls? What are you talking about??

I know what I am talking about, but do you know what you are asking about?

How to migrate spin from cue to colored ball? It's possible or repeatable but I would think would make head lines.

Sorry Andy but the ball in question is usually the cue ball since its when a positional shot is overplayed that the problem occurs. I do however agree that to impart spin on the object ball from a collision with a spinning cue ball is not really possible because they are in contact for microseconds and I have heard it said that it just doesn`t occur. In fact you can play shots where you use the spin after a collision to achieve position. Object balls usually rotate after complex multiple cushion interactions near pockets. An example is trying to impart spin on the cue ball with cue with no tip, its almost impossible. Also I agree totally with the posts that mention converting rotational motion of the cue ball into linear motion after a cushion is hit. As such a cue ball will leave the cushion faster if the spin is `running side` and slower with `check side`. I`ve played snooker in competition at an amateur level for some 20 years and use this myself. I still find it difficult on the one hand to argue with what the professional is telling me is out of the ordinary and feel compelled to look for another reason. Perhaps its the way that the cloth has been stretched over the rubber in the cushions when the table is built. Maybe some cushions take less angular momentum out of the ball then others due to an overstretched cloth.

Hi Pj3ns3n

Good thread...good responses!

I've played snooker here in the US on occasion. Tables are rare and usually of the 5x10 size instead of the 6x12 to account for limited space.

As to the thread...SPIN is the Only thing that can cause a ball to exit a cushion at a greater linear speed than initial contact speed....Period!

Having played under intense lights for filming, the roll will become faster as the table (cloth) heats up. The faster the initial cloth speed the worse it gets. If they are using fast cloth to begin with and cushions that are in the Shore A 40 range (durometer), the balls will roll a lot further than expected and will usually take a few shots to appreciate. So the shots are just coming off of the cushions at a speed greater than expected.

I was under the impression that snooker cloth has a "nap" and can cause slower movement against and faster with the nap. Is this no longer the case? Have they started to use a cloth similar to regular pocket billiards surfaces?

Just my nickels worth.

Jeff

"An example is trying to impart spin on the cue ball with cue with no tip, its almost impossible."

Once I would have said that was absolutely right. In fact I would bet money that was right. In fact I would have bet a month's pay that was right. In fact I did bet a month's pay (payday in the Army.) against a fellow who offered to use a broom handle instead of a cue. Finished end, no chalk. He did not use any side, but did put top and bottom spin on the cue. That was a lean month!

Of course, this was nine ball, not snooker.

My main point was that all the "tricks of the trade" have been in use for many years and the changes noted are not due to the way the players play, nobody has developed a whole new playing method...........its something else...!!

I feel that it is probably something to do with the table as I believe that the way the balls are made or made of, does not have enough potential to make the difference(s) noted....

I personally go strongly for a) thinner, better cloth not slowing the ball down as much and b) better cushions giving more energy back to the ball than before. In that order....

Of course we will probably never really find out what the difference really was......sadly!

Good Blog!!!

I agree with most of the comments here & in Andy's earlier post but having watched the snooker last night, have to disagree with the idea that spin can not be imparted to the coloured ball. With one particular shot last night the cue ball could not hit the red in the right place because the pink was obstructing it. The commentator (Dennis Taylor) explained at length that the only way to pocket the red was to play the cue with a lot of side so that spin was given to the red. The view on TV was looking from the corner pocket so you could see that the direct pot was impossible. You could see the player striking the cue ball low & to the right of centre and then watch the red curve its way into the pocket.

Just for a fun little test, you can try the following the next time you have an opportunity:

Place an object ball in front of a hole (Ball1), another object ball a couple of feet away (Ball2), and finally place the cue ball a little further away and in line with the other two balls.

Make the combination shot by hitting the cue ball with follow, Ball1 will go in , Ball2 will not unless it is later struck a second time by the cue ball. Now set up the shot again and shoot it using draw. This time Ball2 will follow Ball1 in.

You can also test the effect of draw and follow on bank shots. Draw will impose follow on the object ball leaving the angle of the bank open while follow will close the bank angle.... similar to speed. Try the same with right and left hand english.

Transferring english to an object ball is used regularly to achieve different effects. Is there a loss? Yes! But it does occur. None of ths answers the initial question, but it's all in good fun and learning. :)

Thanks for posting this: I like others on the thread had assumed that it was difficult to transfer spin reliably to an object ball (I thought that friction was what they were normally complaining about when they get the ref. to clean the cue ball). I will try this next time I get the chance.

Hey Randall

Side english effect on an object ball is normally known as a "throw" shot. The object ball will be "thrown" off at a greater angle than would normally occur with center cue ball contact. The effects are much easier to attain when the cue ball is in dead contact with the object ball. But never-the-less, it will happen in the split second the 2 balls connect even at a distance. Just like spin can be inparted to a golf ball at contact even though the ball is only in contact with the face of the club for a few milliseconds.

Try it when the opportunity arises. Right hand english will "throw" the object ball to the left and visa-versa.

After 41 years of play, I still get giddy at the extraordinary shots that can be pulled off with the proper and well practiced use of english.

Hi snygolfgs

Thanks for your input. Tables do have a nap but as to what causes it I`m not sure. I do know that they are always ironed and brushed toward the pack and never the other way. I don`t know whether the cloth fibres lay in any particular direction to start with. If they do and a cushion has opposite nap then could this be a factor. Balls will move offline sometimes when played slowly against the nap or across the nap direction. Purists only remove a tables cover by dragging it in the direction of the nap so as to maintain it.

Interesting. This is how it used to be with pool tables in the U.S. about 20-25 years ago. The nap was a result of the fibers laying one direction and was always installed so that it would run from the head of the table toward the foot of the table. It added another level to the game. Since then it has all moved toward non-directional cloth here, at least with 3 cushion and pool. A snooker table around town is rare these days.

As is so often the case, there is little or nothing definitive to be gained in trying to explain an event (the player's assertion to the press) without visual reference to the actual event (the actual match play shot attempts that led to player's assertions).

Given that, let me offer one possibility which could reasonably have led to the player's assertion to the press.

First let us (safely) assume that "Player" is an able, well practiced contestant. Let us agree also that one hallmark of a good player consists in steady bridge and steady, consistent stroking, whether during address, thrust, strike or follow-through. If we now envision a good player propelling a cue ball cushion-ward from a not-too-distant point, and the cue ball caroming backward towards Player's cue stick, and Player's gaze still fixated on stick tip, ball, and intervening felt, and Player's cue stick (either) still bridged and stationary or still bridged and following through (because, as a good player, Player has aptly learned to hold bridge position after striking and follow-through), can we not then also envision that Player could reasonably perceive (albeit incorrectly) that the returning cue ball had accelerated in relation to the speed of his cue stick's tip since striking the cushion and continuing on its return journey towards his cue stick's tip?

...and that the press announcers, even if they had reviewed Player's claim on overhead video replay and found the claim wanting, would be in no "professionally acceptable" position to argue the point with Player?

I can't really accept this, on the TV in the UK the commentators are generally experienced players themselves. For the current championship being televised we have Dennis Taylor, Steve Davis & John Virgo all of whom are or have been world class players. Steve Davis in particular competed in the earlier rounds of the current championship so has experienced the tables they are using. The commentators also use a 'white pen' on the screen to predict where the cue ball will travel & have been caught out by the speed of the tables.

I came across this snooker site today which has some fascinating info especially in the glossary. There are great little animations of different shots in snooker & billiards & a host of facts, I'd never heard of a 'snooker plus' game. I'm going to be dipping into the glossary all day.