Are CFLs Really Designed for Longer Life?

That is bad... I'm in the UK and I've been using CFLs for way over 10 years now and not a single one has packed up...

A few have got so dim over time that I've replaced them, but then the lifetime quoted by the manufacturers is until the light output reaches 50% of the original output, I think...

So I've never had one fail, only grow dim and that is on 240 ish volts...

I would take them back to the shop or manufacturer with a carefully worded letter!!

John.

better to just tell them the problem, nicely. Most often they'll just say go and get some more. Best not to build resistance be getting huffy too soon. When buying CFl's try to find customer service number on package. Again, be nice and explain. You'll probably get replacements and/or coupons in mail...and an apology too. As for dimmer types...best to avoid new gimmicks until they're on market for some time and proven. Let someone else pay for free R&D "market" testing of the latest and supposedly greatest. BTW, dimmers is a good approach...to extend the life time and conserve power usage of incandescents.

I have had similar bad experiences with a number of CFL bulbs I have purchased. I started saving the packaging and receipts, so I can return them to the store for replacement, or send them back to the manufacturer (if it's been too long for store return). Financially, it's really not worth the effort to send back to the manufacturer, but it's the principle, if no one makes them back up the warranty, they will continue to inflate the expected life of the bulb. I do have some that have gone for quite a few years, but they seem to be the exception. I also think that the majority of failures that I see are electronics failures, not the fact that the tube itself is "used up". I have actually fixed a couple, but most are too difficult to get into. My opinion is that the numbers they put on these things are not considering "real world" conditions, such as poor design, manufacturing defects, cheap components, etc. There is also the end user to take into account. Most of these numbers are based on a certain "on" time per day, meaning turn it on, leave it on, then off, repeat. The more on/off cycles you put them through, the shorter the life.

There's been a lot of discussion about the real vs perceived benefit of CFL. You do have to factor in the higher initial cost, the disposal issues, the mercury hazard of a broken bulb, etc., not to mention that if you get less life out of one that you do with an incandescent, there's no way you are ahead!

I'd like to see a good review on these bulbs, so I could make a more informed decision when purchasing. I would like to find some manufactured domestically, but I probably couldn't afford them!

When I moved to a new home in January of 2007, I re-lamped the entire house (40+ bulbs) with CFL's, inside & out. I have not had to replace a single unit yet, despite several being in sub freezing temperatures and asked to start on a regular basis (they take a little longer to reach full bright, but no failures). I purchased contractor packs of Sylvania bulbs from my local Lowe's and my net cost per bulb was less than $3 I have not attempted the dimmable versions - I retained incandescents in areas I wanted dimmability or instant-on. I'm waiting for the LED technology to mature before replacing the lamps in those areas.

I'll have to remember Sylvania! I think the majority of mine have been GE or Lights of America (made in China, of course). I would like to try the dimmable, but they are hard to find, and when you do find them, the cost is too high.

I, too, am waiting for the LED technology to come down in price. With all the minuses that CFL's have, LED should become the dominant technology.

Tom

I bought cheap ones and they didn't last...

I bought some 'good quality' ones.... I just had one go..it started flickering and stunk like mad...the electronics had cooked. At least a filament bulb doesn't stink the house out. when it fails.
As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out.

Del

How can you tell 'good quality'? My first impression is to avoid 'made in China', but I haven't seen any...

I too have been using CFLs for at least 10 years, and usually mark the install date, so I have some idea of how long they last, but there is a wide variation...

I have NOT had Electroman's experience. Mine usually last around 2 years; some longer, some only weeks.

Yup...even the 'Brand Name' ones (eg GE ...hey thats a palindrome!) are made in china .

Del

It looks like the consensus may be .. good quality ones will possibly last a long time and cheap ones are probably not worth the price of the box they come in.

I don't think I have had a single one need replacement for losing light output. They simply do not last that long.

All of the ones I have purchased have been from the lower end of the price range .. around 2 or $3 each ( in packs or 6 to 12 usually) with the exception of the dimmable one which cost $20.

Maybe its as simple as the lower cost ones having sub spec transistors compared to better quality versions. I may have to dismantle a new cheap one and use a curve tracer to check out the transistors..

Either way .. I think I may have to spend a lot more on my globes in future, my early purchases where pricier from memory and they have fared little better over time.

I've purchased the GE bulbs, and they've gone gut up inside a year, and one of the bulbs burst into flames when the base blew!

Scared the bleep out of my 20-year-old son, and didn't make me a happer camper, either!

Looks like I'll either have to buy better bulbs, or up my fire insurance!

Locksmith Al: You ahve just given me cause for a few sleepless nights. I am now in the UK until June when I return to my wooden house in the mountains of southern Spain. I have solar power and nothing else but a petrol generator at that Spannish retreat. I have used CFL's in the house for over a year now as I only received around 4.5kWh per day from my solar panels.

I have to leave some lights on (and the fridge) to drain some of the stored power in the 12 24v batteries while I am away from the house for extended periods (like now - 3 months).

The thought that these CFL's could explode in flames gives me a cold sweat. Hopefully my very isolated wooden retreat will still be intact when I return.

By the way, I do not cover the panels and disconnect the system because I don't know enough about it to do that, and I want to leave some lights on so that people think there is someone there (especially at night) should anyone decide to break in! I suppose if they did, though, at least the fridge would be on so that they could have a nice cold can of something!

There are no really good ways round that problem......Batteries need to be cycled, but NEVER overcharged as then they just gas off the water, ruining the battery....

LED lights generally make less heat and are also available in 12 volts....

I would cycle such batteries between 12.65 volts and 13.2 volts, not any lower and not any higher when you are not there.

12.6 volts is the level at which batteries start to sulfate and 13.4 and higher starts gassing....

There are 12 volt movement detectors and also 24 hour timers, for caravans and the like...it would be better if you used them a bit to make your place look more inhabited....

Andy Germany: Thanks for that. Please note that my system is 24v.

No problem, simply doubling the figures will give the correct values PROVIDED that both batteries are identical in every way including age!!!

There is lots of lead acid info on the web, read it all!!! There is too much for a blog!!

I think you are recommending a "waste load", to maintain the batteries of our friend.

I have a Lava Lamp that burns an old 40 watt appliance bulb. Possibly our friend has some Lava lamp around.

I myself have not had good luck with CFLs and appreciate the recommendation of Sylvania.

I suspect that as time goes on LED lighting will overtake the CFLs.

Frankly I've stopped buying them since they are overrated as far as output, and even when they work, the glass envelope is so delicate they break more easily than regular lamps.

A fair amount of my lighting is from scooptype clip lights. Heavan forbid I move it.

LEDs will take off when they over power the light and then turn it yellow with gel or filter to replicate the pleasing quality of light we are accustomed to.

No matter what CFl you use, be sure to grasp the base, not the tubing, when threading in and tightening in socket. I suspect this might be a cause with a lot of premature CFl failures.

Hmmmmm I wonder if that is the problem???

In the UK most bulbs for dometic use are bayonet fitting, all the pictures I've seen on here show damaged bulbs with edison screw fittings!!??

John...

It could be an indicator...here in the US, you almost never see bayonet-style home-use lamps, they're all screw-in. And, obviously, sometimes screw-up...

Germany (most of Europe too) use Edison screw in bulbs.

Certainly putting pressure on the glass could be part of the problem, causing tiny cracks/stresses.....

Sadly some fittings are so made that grasping the base is impossible.....

Sadly, most of the modern fittings do not have the correct base for power saving lamps in the first place, its a lot of work to find a fitting for such lamps that also looks good.

Electroman's response points up a (seemingly ironic) case where production cost cutting—i.e., use of bayonet fittings—might actually have had a benefit, possible one that was never originally contemplated!

My sense about the "bulb-to-base integrity" thing applies also as an explanation of the dramatic decrease in reliability of incandescent bulbs—where even minute sealing failures (loss of hermeticity) can lead to rapid filament (&or filament support) oxidation and failure...and to (so very many) bulbs (at all prices and under all brands) lasting only a matter of hours (i.e., hour fractions), if that. As to incandescents, it has also been my experience that, when purchased in multiple-unit packaging (the units of which presumably come from the same production lot), if one bulb fails prematurely, so will the rest—and at roughly the same time to failure! This indicates, to me at least, a diminishment (since former times) of workmanship—and of quality control—as:

• light "bulbs" (of all kinds) have increasingly become "low-value-added" products, and
• production has accordingly moved (ubiquitously) to 3rd and 2nd world countries. (Few would wonder why we no longer see US, UK, Deutschland, or even Japan produced light "bulbs".)

Another thing entering into my thinking about the matter is the almost universal use of push-in type "base" contact used in halogen bulbs...where the risks (and liabilities) attending sealing structure failures...are unable to be trivialized.

Concluding, my original post is meant (also) to suggest that, other than user care when installing, there is little that can be expected or done (apart from "enforcing" express or implicit warranties after the fact), to alleviate/counteract premature "bulb" failure problems; the production "economics" arguments given above weigh heavily against any manufacturer solutions—i.e., mfg design effort must, of necessity, focus on perceived performance (consumer market appeal) even if to the detriment of product reliability/ruggedness.

Andy, thanks for your input. Well done.

"Another thing entering into my thinking about the matter is the almost universal use of push-in type "base" contact used in halogen bulbs...where the risks (and liabilities) attending sealing structure failures...are unable to be trivialized."

Too true. I had the glass envelope break away on a fair sized halogen bulb once some years ago. The circuit had to be de-energized to safely remove the remains. No triviality there, even 110V will bite hard enough to kill sometimes.

The blanket claim is a warranty. Go to mfr, get a replacment...for all of them. It's always worked for me...even at the seller...even with incandescents. So try store first, then the manufacturer. Good luck with it.

Also, the things work better in lamps mounted upright that in fixtures mounted downward.

I've had mixed results. Most of my CFLs are turned on and left on for several hours at a time, and I've not changed one in two years.

My strangest experience was in my last home. I had a bathroom that ate light bulbs. Incandescent bulbs lasted a month or less. I tried a CFL and it burned out in about six weeks. In the rest of the house, all bulbs lasted as predicted.

No, not really. CFl's are really designed for lower power consumption. That's why that's the thing they do most reliably...when they do anything. The rest is about trying to fix flaws, both actual and perceived.

Guys,

CFLs can be a real pain. Maybe one day they will be adequate but I am betting on LEDs coming good first.

Problems that I have encountered include:

1 Poor match of many CFLs with the physical envelopes of many bulbs. They are often too large for the fitting. So instead of using 50 + CFls I can only use 20!

2 Poor luminance. I have turned my study into a Downlighter test bed with a mixture of GU14s,( Mains voltage). CFLs and MR16s (12 volt) The CFL s are slow to start, have poor luminance and on the basis of this experiment I used MR16s for the next room that I was relamping. This study will get refitted with MR16s when I get a moment. Lik ethe external lights reviwed below, the brightness at ceiling level looks adequate, but trying to read at Desk level is hard.

Especially poor luminace of CFLs used in outdoor situations; eg I used to have a 150 watt Incandescent bulb at the top of my drive. I now have a 20/23 Watt CFL and the thrown light from it is pitiful. The percieved brightness at the lamp level looks adequate but try and find somethiing on the floor in the dark!!!

3 Life of the CFLs has not been that bad yet, Some have failed, I asume the left hand side of the of bathtub and others have yet to accrue sufficient hours for meaningful numbers. A fw years need to elapse before we can be confident of long lived CFLs.

4 LEDs when they finally arrive in a useful brightness and colour they could be useful -however they will all require an individual driver as I understand the science or physics This will impact the cost and also impact the envelope issues noted above.

5 One interesting development is CCFL (Cold cathode Flouescent) units which are certainly useful for low level lights. This the technology use for the backlight in most Laptops. I bought one in a Firesale at my local Electrical wholesaler. It is a fairly dim 5 Watt unit and cost me a whole pound! It could be useful where one needs a low level light!! It ought to have a good level of R&D behind it!

For me CFLs are NOT the answer to a maiden's prayer!

Sleepy

Your comment about less light than the manufacturers apparently claim is relevant. Manufacturers of CFLs always compare with so-called "warm white" tungsten, which means the tungsten bulb is running relatively cool and therefore inefficiently. I think that means that the radiant output is about 70% of a 'standard colour-temperature' tungsten lightbulb. However, if you want to use CFLs or warm-white bulbs to read by (apparently not common practice these days), you may find that you need the light to be brighter to achieve the same visual clarity - that is certainly the case if you are long-sighted**, as your eye focuses shorter wavelengths more strongly.

**Which diverts me to the unsuitability of Volkswagen and Audi's craze to use red illumination for the dashboard display - assuming that you need rapidly to transfer your attention between the road and the display; but if only that were the worst of their lack of attention to their customers' needs...

red illumination for the dashboard display .. <slaps furry head with paw>

A fair proportion of men have some red green deficiency with their colour vision...

(which can be a good thing as it will excuse you from choosing wallcoverings, curtains and the general nightmare that is soft furnishings... )

Del

Apparently someone told 'em red light is less degradative to the retinal pigments that allow night vision without telling 'em about the drawbacks to using red light... D'OH!

What are the problems with red light (in the car, not in a house!!) at night, I haven't heard.....

Potential problems:

1) Harder to focus on red displays when having to look from road to dash repeatedly.

2) Less brightness, so may not be able to see readouts as well.

3) Red-green color blindness could be an issue, although 1 & 2 would trump this.

4) Law enforcement might mistake you for a rolling house of ill repute.

Potential pluses:

1) Red light does not degrade pigments responsible for night vision as rapidly.

2) I don't know of any others.

Driving pleasure or the pleasure of driving is my personal translation....

I know exactly what it means, I did not get the impression that you did though!!!!

It sounds like you have been watching US & UK Audi Car ads, which tend to be made by British speakers, not German speakers....for English and American audiences.....

Brits tried to sell Vick in Germany many years ago and wondered why German mothers did not buy it. The reason was that in German, the pronunciation of the name "Vick" sounds like in German for the German word for "Fuck"......Which is actually "Fick". A German "V" has an "F" sound.....

In the RN, when darkness came, we lit the whole ship internally with red lights so as to not disturb the night vision of the on watch Guys moving about the ship. If I understood you correctly, that was the correct thing to do!!

Absolutely - in the USN we did the same thing!

Which is exactly why we will never like red lights in our homes or vehicles.

You might get the wrong sort of caller at the front door too......

I have not kept records, but the CFLs in our house seem to need replacement every bit as often as the old incandescents. So far, we have had no serious problems with CFLs, however this site is a bit scary!

as the old incandescents! Just how old (as in year of manufacture) do you mean. I've been noticing a steady decline in incandescent reliability...down to as few as (not 1000s, not 100's, not even 10's of hours but) hours. I do remember the time, though, when incandescents were much better and could be counted on to last for months under normal usage...before production all went west to the east.

We moved into this house in 1981. Some of the incandescents were in place when we moved in and have not been changed. Admittedly, they are not used a great deal, but they have lasted at least 27 years (don't know how long they were in service before we moved in).

Two years ago, I decided to replace incandescent bulbs with CFLs when they burned out. Several of the old bulbs are still in service. Two of the new CFLs have been replaced twice.

There is a Municipal Park in Colorado Springs, CO, called "The Cave Of The Winds". It is, as one might anticipate, a cave that is open to touristas. Part of it is lit by hand-blown, carbon-filament, incandescent lamps installed when Thomas A. Edison was still alive and inventing. They are well over 100 years in near-constant service. How long did you say you were in that house?

Not that long. Yeah, I saw that carbon-filament lamp on the news last night. The announcer said it was 103 years old and constantly in service. Don't make 'em like that anymore!

One intriguing aspect of the link you provided appears at right.

What, do you suppose, went wrong (or, depending on the perspective, went right) in order for Underwriter's Laboratory to certify such a bulb (product or mfg process) as safe?

If they're looking, maybe they can explain?

Hey Folks. One of the main problems I have found that causes these CFLs to go belly up is voltage surges. The other is even though these things don't generate as much radiated heat as incandescents they still have a high voltage transformer at the base (the ballast).

If they are handled roughly during transport and the wiring in the ballast cracks, well you get the drift.

Your best bet in my opinion is to buy bulbs that are made in the country you live in, if possible. Less travel maybe less damage potential.

My two cents, Blue

I've used CFL's now for several years, and they really last very long here, about 2-3 years at 12hrs / night. They seem to be less susceptible to higher voltages than our 230V standard - it runs at 235V-240V quite often, & incandescents didn't like that. At my work sites, surges from switching and lightning are probably more common, and my staff tells me that CFLs don't last long there. I'm planning to fit surge protection anyway due to new electronic equipment installed, and will see if that makes a difference.

The cheap no-name brands did not last long, neither did the GE units (this was 5 years ago). Philips, Osram & Eurolux is what I use now. Mounting in a fairly air-tight fitting also seems to cause premature failure, possibly due to the heat build-up causing more rapid ageing or making the electronics more susceptible to surges?

Regarding luminescence, it would seem that not all 11W units provide the same light output! Colour temperature: I sometimes struggle to get warm white lamps - the cool white does not look natural to the eye.

A trick I use for incandescents, is to always buy 240V rated units - they last much longer than the 230V units, and if they are slightly dimmer, I didn't see the difference. So in Oz you might want to look at a higher voltage, 250V lamps maybe?

For higher wattges, we tried the 2D configuration, but in the end went for normal flourescent tubes, their lifespans were ridiculously short (can't remember the brand).

I wonder if controlled studies has ever been done?

Can't wait for LED downlighters to come......

I've had limited experience with CFLs (6 bulbs for a bathroom) but have not had any fail. Dimmable ones have not been on the market long (at least good ones, R&D lasted up to 2006), and from what I have read/heard, if you buy a top name brand, the quality should be acceptable (Phillips, Sylvania). No-name generic units are said to be junk, as several previous posters have noted. For now, I too am awaiting widespread LED lighting.

Of the many bulbs we have of LED and CFL, only a Phillips has failed after about 2 weeks of very little usage. Shop replaced it immediately and returned the other to Phillips for testing ( A Phillips requirement)

"...returned the other to Phillips for testing ( A Phillips requirement)..."

Which tells me they are quite likely a reliable company. If they didn't give a good sharp rap about the cause of the failure, they wouldn't care any more than that about improving their product/process.

Most of my CFLs are made by Phillips or Sylvania I do have some spare cheap ones made in China and after looking at that web site of burnt out ones I reckon they will remain spares!!

The Phillips one is mounted in a room where it is on for approximately 2500 hours a year and its been used for over 10 years, so its provided no problem for 25000 hours!!!

Others I use round the house are a mixture of cheap and good CFLs where they are switched on when needed etc... Once again over 10 years with no problems with them either!!

Maybe the mains round here is relatively spike / noise free??

My experience of CFLs is that they are great, except for staircases lighting where you need instant light to stop you going 'a over t' down the stairs!!

John.

In my bathroom I have a GU10 fitting for 6 lamps. I have 4 x 11 watt CFLs that need a few seconds to get turned on and up to maximum light and two early 1 watt multi LEDs 230 volt GU10 that switch on instantly and give enough light to stop that "a over t" problem, especially for visitors!!