The Sound Of Wind

You've obviously never played in a marching band in a bitter cold football field. Everybody's pitch is off, even if you play the clarinet and keep it tucked under your shirt to keep it warm (Of course, I played the tuba - where the heck can you tuck that?).

Does this mean that my observation was right? Well you are right, I have never been in a marching band. At what ever temperatures. Besides, tucking away a piano would be even more difficult. See what happens. Ky.

Hey, been there and done that! That Tuba mouthpiece is like a piece of ice on a cold day.

Dang!

Mebbe we should form an interest group of old tuba (and other bass) players, with a logo: !!

Mine was a three (piston) valve E^b. What'd you play? Some folks around here call the marching band bass horn both a 'tuba' and a Sousaphone. Mine was a hold-in-the-lap very ordinary type in a sit-down school band, but it could be marched with, if one were feeling very strong or maybe had a support strap to hold it up. The tuba shown in Wickipedia is the one I played. Tubby.

I also spent a little time on the double bass, and my current instrument is the 6bass!

Any other 6bass players out there? These athletic musicians in the following link are not (obviously) me. They're playing my instrument, though, and they are right here in Toronto.

Each bass instrument is composed of 6 pans [a pan is a steel drum with a stretched and annealed head that has been sectioned to produce tones in the sol-fa scale] with three notes on each, for a total range of 18 notes. (Fewer notes, larger vibration chamber, deeper pitch. About 10 differently pitched pans range from soprano through 6bass.) Enjoy.

Following some of the other u-tube links of this group --Toronto's "Afro Pan"-- will show you some 9bass players. It's my eventual ambition to play/own a 12bass, the world's largest portable musical instrument. Absolutely no place to tuck that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE_WpXD2BxE&NR=1

Since the entire group plays at the same ambient temperature, there's usually not a problem with pitch differences. But if there is, each steel band has as part of its membership at least one tuner on site at all performances. (The tinnier sounds are made with 18 gauge steel drum material. The more solid tones are 16 gauge.)

Mark

Hello MarkTheHandyman,

Hope all is well..........How is your Embouchure?

I just really like any 'tight' steel band. May be there was a little too much background noise to hear them properly in the clip you chose...........?

I think the way they are made is fascinating, with more or less each pan a one of a kind. You would need a pretty big wagon to get a pan 'Orchestra' in though? There is quite a lot in London UK and, each usually plays at the Nottinghill Carnival every year.

I had a Piano style squeeze-box when I was 10 to 15 years old. I have always like 'percussive' music though and, although we did not have much room in out little house, I had Tom-toms and Maraca's. I can coordinate drum playing, but, have always found it difficult to say, play the Guitar. Could never work out the 'fretting'. I really love live music of any kind...............

Take care...............

jfmfit (John)

Hello ky

Thanks to TVP45 for the information above.

There are four problems relating to wind instruments:

1. Temperature of the instrument.
2. Temperature of the air.
3. Temperature of the blown air.
4. Humidity
   

1, 2, 3) These relate to expansion/contraction of metal instruments (Brass, silver, whistles, pianos and the like).

4) The humidity affects the note and tonal quality in woodwind instruments (plus all other wooden instruments including bagpipes, also pianos and similar non-electronic keyboard instruments, because of the complex wooden mechanism)

When the air is colder, it is also more dense, the resonating air column is heavier, thus there are more molecules instantaneously passing a given point, thus resulting in the lower note.

Have you ever seen an orchestra tuning up, before a Concert?

They sometimes take half-an-hour, or more, until each has adjusted their individual instrument for the temperature/humidity local conditions.

It is the same for a brass or silver band. Sometimes it can take an hour for a large band to get the instruments tuned for the recital.

Trust you feel assisted.

Kind Regards....

Thanks Sparky

Not only do I feel assisted but my sanity has been confirmed. I really thought imagination had taken over. Wind has a different sound when turbulated (is this is a real word) resulting from temperature and humidity. I hope this is the conclusion.

"thus resulting in the lower note"

Should that not read higher note? The colder the denser the higher. I noticed that the sound was higher while the wind was colder. This started me thinking in the first place.

Thanks for your time. Ky.

Hello again, ky

I stand corrected, because the air is denser when the temperature drops, the equivalent air column length is shorter, thus in air-blown instruments, knot holes, broken bottles etc, the note is higher.

Individual instruments vary according to the wood/metal proportions, and quality of manufacture.

Perhaps the gremlin was caused by my proximity to Magnetic Island, which warped my ferromagnetic brain synapses.

Temperature here tonight, is -3 degrees Celsius, and getting colder over the next couple of months, until you send some Spring weather across the Tasman.

Kind Regards....

wow, Sparks,

the temperature here is approach to 33 degrees C.

very hot.

I thought you were right the first time - colder denser air should give you a lower note in a musical instrument such as a beer bottle. The question is, Can you apply that to wind generated noise. It is not generated in a resonant chamber. I would think wind speed would change the pitch as well as temperature.

The question is becoming complex...

Do you think the stringed instrument is differ from pipe instrument?

teh tone of the stringed instrument depends on the its string length and mass. whereas air density and temp define the wave length of the tone transmitting through it.

Hi cnpower

It took me quite a while to even fraze the original question. It was an observation that I could not confirm nor ignore. Now, in hind-site, I would ask it in a different way.

Would turbulence created by the same obstacle make a different sound depending on the temperature/humidity of the air that passes it?

It is getting more complex and it seems that I will have to set up an experiment to find out for my self. No rush. I'll let this seed grow and it will either develop into a practical use or blow away in the wind as Bob used to say. Thanks for the input. Ky

Im waiting for your experiment.

it will be interesting.

it will need many instruments, wind speed meter, temp/humid meter, test mic ir meter and analyer etc.

Hi cnpower

If I can conclude from the above, that it is possible to correlate the the sound of wind to its temperature/humidity, I will need more than instruments of what ever kind. I will need an application for utilizing it. For now I am quite happy to have observed this and had CR4 to confirm that I was not hearing things.

As the anecdote goes the invention of the steam engine started with the observation of a lid going up and down on a pot on the stove of James Watt's mother. It took a long time to come up with a use for this observation.

Like I said, if something can grow it will and being in "my" head I will find out soon. Better yet, my intuition (subconscious) will deal with it and at some stage it will come to me like the proverbial light bulb. Then the moths can fly their heart out. Poor things. As it seems, I am one of those moths right now. Rich me. Thanks for your input. Ky.

Hello ky,

have you actually got any wind/turbulence, speed instruments?

Is it possible to tell me what Continent you live in please?

Good luck with your ideas and whatever turns out from your thinking, OK.

jfmfit

Before you make the experiment can you anwer a question?

How does the wind give out sound? Have you ever listen to the sound in an empty field of plain? whats their different from listen in the suburb and urban ?

The sound speed is related to density of air. if the wave length is invariable, the frequency will change in what you will know very well.

If you hve a good lab, can you do a more useful experiment like test some material shape how to absorb or isolate sound in building?

Hi cnpower

How does the wind give out sound?

I suppose it is not the wind directly but more the resonating parts of the house which are agitated by the turbulences (vortex) the wind creates. These seem to be different at higher temperatures (low frequency). At cold temperatures the sound seems to be higher. It does not occur all the time but only when a S/E blows at a still to be determined speed. If made visible I think it would look like a mini cyclone caught in a gap some where around the house.

Have you ever listen to the sound in an empty field of plain?

No. But I watched a documentary about the arctic the other day and it again seemed that the sound (if it was taken on site) seemed to be very high pitched, compared to the sound that one of those destructive Twisters/Hurricanes (warmer air) make (same day on a different program). Again, I have to rely on my ears as a diagnostic tool. I have no instruments to go any deeper into this but I will have once I know how to apply this phenomena to/on what ever. That little seed is developing by the day.

if the wave length is invariable, the frequency will change in what you will know very well.

You will have to rephrase this because I have difficulty understanding what you mean.

PS.

My heart goes out to your country. I admire the discipline and determination with which your people handle such a catastrophe. If New Orleans would be in China it would be back into business by now. There would have been no crocodile tears either. I hope you know what they are. Good luck to all of you. Have a great day. Ky.

v=314√1+T/273 m/s

if the wave length is invariable, the frequency will change in what you will know very well.

What I want to say is when the wave length of sound is invariable . from formula

f=v/lambda where f frequency or sound, v sound speed in the air, see formula at top;

lambda wave length. you can result in it.

Australia is a beautiful place where there are many chinese study and living there, include some boys of my neibourhood

Thank you very much for your words. We can rebuild more beautiful home.

Do you think the stringed instrument is differ from pipe instrument?

On a stringed instrument like a guitar you also have tension.

I guess my point was that in a musical instrument, you have a resonator of some sort which is affected by the density. I think that in free space the frequency will not be constrained and can vary over a wide range. For example, wind blowing past the corner of a house might vary in frequency as the wind blows harder. Air blown into a flute causes vibrations which are constrained to vibrational modes of the air column inside. The frequency of these vibrational modes is determined by the air density.

You are right, it depends on Youngs elestic modulus as well.

you seem familiar with viberation, why dont you sign in?

How the air folw produce sound is out of my depth. I almost forget my acoustic knowledge. sound of flute is caused by pipe length resounance when your finger change different holes nd different speed of air flow.

wind blows past the corner of a house might cause various in frequency either as blowing speed or as house form which will produce different stand wave mode.

all is guess.

Hello ky,

I have not checked this at all......................but what you say seems to make sense. And it would I imagine be relatively easy to make a small enclosure like a whistle or similar and, put it on the corner of a building to try your theory out?

Perhaps a funnel with a thermometer stuck on the inside with bandage round the thermometer to try and keep the temperature of the actual thermometer to somewhere near that of the air entering the funnel, and with a kettle whistle taped onto the thin end? Very interesting.

Have you also noticed the rise in pitch a mug makes as a hot liquid warms the ceramic of the mug?

jfmfit

Hi jfmfit

Now that I know that I wasn't hearing things it becomes more interesting. I will let it rest in my mind for a while and see what my intuition comes up with. It would be quite a novel way to display temperature. Like in a warning system maybe. Who knows. See what happens. Ky.

Hi Ky,

I realise your question has been answered but..............just a thought, you could perhaps put a CI Temp sensor in the funnel or whatever, as the metal of the whistle and or the funnel are slow to respond from a thermal viewpoint? Just a thought as I say. Mind, I wouldn't fancy being your neighbour if you do try something like that!.

For a more up to date version, a mini weather station with feeds coming to your PC?

Please keep us informed. This sounds interesting. Sorry for any pun, not intended.

jfmfit

Around here Lorekeets, Cockatoos, Carrawongs, Crows and other wild life make more noise than I ever could. A little whistle here and there, nobody would even know. And not to forget the Curlews at night. They are to be heard to be believed. Ky.

Hello ky,

you do not have to answer, are you in Australia or New Zealand?

jfmfit

Have you also noticed the rise in pitch a mug makes as a hot liquid warms the ceramic of the mug?

Raising the temperature of the mug should make it expand and slightly weaken the strength of the molecular bonds. both of these processes should lower the pitch!

I suspect what you are hearing is related to the escape of dissolved/bubbles of air from the water. The speed of sound is much higher in water than air, so as the air escapes, the average speed will increase, and the pitch will increase proportionately.

Hello dkwarner,

I knew it was because either the temp' of the liquid or mug.

I now have a simi-techy reasoned explanation!

Why don't you do it yourself and as you stir the sound goes up as, it seems, the mug gets hotter. But, I now know the proper reason?

I only put that as an 'aside' and was not expecting any posts on it, tar!

Take care............

jfmfit

Ky, I would venture a guess that because the air is the energy but the house is the resonator, the pitch varies by the temp of the house more than the air. Not that they are different temps but that the house temp is the determination factor to the tone/pitch.

As a quick and dirty example: the bow on a violin does not change the pitch per say when it is loose or tight (did I mention quick and dirty) the tension of the instrument sets the pitch. Cold equals contraction and stiffness in solids producing a higher pitch while gas contracts and carries sound better but as to pitch I don't know. Intuition says lower but I have not tested it.

Brad

Hello U V,

it could be the air resonating between a couple of window sills or veranda. Rather than just the flat side of the house? If it is a wooden build it could possibly be more likely for the wood to resonate?

Take care...........

jfmfit

Hello jfmfit, This is just a SWAG but the wind at the proper direction and speed sets up a harmonic, usually by forming a vortices, on a point of drag/turbulence. If the oscillation is in the range of human hearing we notice it. e.g. A window casing has air moving over it a an optimum speed to induce vortices between 20Hz to 20KHz (or a harmonic there of). The resulting alternating changes in pressure cause the casing and window pane to vibrate which in turn can cause the walls around the window to vibrate.

One thing I have observed is an increase in the wind speed usually increases volume not pitch. To raise the pitch one would have to speed up the oscillation by shortening the length or increase the stiffness of the resonator.

Brad

Hi U V,

what do you mean by SWAG?

Exactly the situation you mention happened a few doors up from us. It was four houses away and they put a garage door on made from thin steel. They had so many complaints because the reverberations went right through the other houses in the tenement.

Really appreciate your explanation by the way. What you explained in your last post was obvious to me, but, things on the smaller scale like the mug and stuff takes a little bit more testing?

Take care............

jfmfit

Hi jfmfit.

SWAG-scientific wild ass guess.

Often called the SWAG factor.

Brad

Hi U V,

Tar. I know one of the 'in' jokes now.

Thanks for replying.

jfmfit

Hello again, ky

Of course if you are outside in a large open flat area such as a large field, on a clear night, and play a short loud note on any musical instrument, you may hear the welkin ring.

That is quite an experience, believe me.

Kind Regards....

Wow Sparky

You are a true treasure trove of knowledge. I feel like I am back at school and loving it. Maybe we will meet one day and sort a few things out that are hard to do over the computer. My ears are wide open and the other senses are switched on as well. Thanks for that reply. Ky.

I had not heard of the 'welkin ring'. I looked it up several places, but still don't know whether it is an actual effect. Is it an echo or reverberation of some kind? Does it only occur on clear nights? Does that mean it requires cold air? Or is it just a bunch of hot air?

Dick

Hi, dkwarner!

A quick visit to ask.com, with the question, "Where does the 'welkin ring' come from?" produced this answer for you. (Underlining & italics are mine.)

WELKIN

The sky; heaven; the firmament.

We don't use this much nowadays — dictionaries usually tag it as archaic or literary — except in the set phrase make the welkin ring, meaning to make a very loud sound. What supposedly rings in this situation is the vault of heaven, the bowl of the sky. In older cosmology this was thought to be one of a set of real crystal spheres that enclosed the Earth, to which the planets and stars were attached, so it would have been capable of ringing like a bell if you made enough noise. The word comes from the Old English wolcen, a cloud, related to the Dutch wolk and German Wolke. Very early on, for example in the epic poem Beowulf of about the eighth century AD, the phrase under wolcen meant under the sky or under heaven (the bard used the plural, wolcnum, but it's the same word). Ever since, it has had a strong literary or poetic connection. It appears often in Shakespeare and also in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales: "This day in mirth and revel to dispend, / Till on the welkin shone the starres bright". In 1739, a book with the title Hymns and Sacred Poems introduced one for Christmas written by Charles Wesley that began: "Hark! how all the welkin rings, / Glory to the King of kings". If that seems a little familiar, it is because 15 years later it reappeared as "Hark! the herald-angels sing / Glory to the new born king".

Mark

Thanks for your effort. That quote WAS one of the several I found while looking up the phrase, but my post #44 remains (in my mind, at least) unanswered! Dick

Hi Richard

(Some one on this site once called me a dick head and I found that it would have been more polite to call me Richard Cranium, no offence intended in any way, shape, or form Dick.)

While I was phrasing my original question I would have never thought that serendipity would lead me to this point. Some times it seems it is not so important to get the right or wrong answer/reply but to go with the flow.

Sparky will get back to you at a later stage, I presume. All I can say is that I get the drift. Sort of. Not that it is of any importance, it just fills that little space in my head with something unfathomable. Imponderable is a state that comes with the territory.

If we can't weigh it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If we can still say it, who can resist? I never intended to make this rhyme and hope we are not wasting our... It's happening again and its only in my mind. I suppose its the same with making a loud sound which can reflect off nothing. If it is only intense enough.

I am still looking for a practical use of this phenomenon and it will come to me some day, possibly when I least expect it. It just seems to work that way with a lot of things. Usually a plant starts with two leaves, this has not even broken through the soil. Yet. Ky.

Hello ky,

I live near a motorway and notice the sound of the motorway is much more prevalent on cloudy days..............

This may not apply to you but I think the sound is reflected off the clouds?

jfmfit

I believe it is refracted, not reflected, especially if you observe this in the early morning. A temperature inversion (cold air near ground, warmer air above) will make sound waves (and light waves) bend back down toward the ground. In visible waves, this creates the appearance of distant objects that appear to float in the air (looming). I once saw a section of a bridge, complete with moving vehicles, that is normally below the horizon from where I was standing on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

Sound will do the same thing, but over shorter distances.

Hello dkwarner:,

I know it happens, and now know what it is called.

If the cloud completely covers our area the sound is not so damped. But, if the cloud is passing over quite low but it does not rain then the sound is more noticeable.

jfmfit

Hello dkwarner and other gentle readers.

Sorry about my late return to this Topic, with the proper explanation.

Scientific explanation: The Welkin Ring

The "Ringing of the Welkin" can only happen on a cold clear night, generally one which may later produce a frost, with no clouds, fog, and also needs to be outside a city far away from buildings, trees, crops, standing wheat or corn plants etc.

So you are there, cold and in the dark, under the starry sky, so you then clap your hands or blow a short single note on a loud horn.

The sound you made radiates in all directions, not being absorbed by buildings, trees, crops, leaves etc.

Most of the sound is reflected in an upwards direction, where it may meet a different density of air, which is invisible to the eye, what would appear to be a relatively constant height above the ground.

In fact the layer is actually curved like an inverted bowl, because of the curvature of the Earth, and you are at the focus of the sound, or nearly so.

The upwards moving note or clap reflects from the air layer, and arrives back to you a short time later, is sometimes reflected against the merging acoustic waves as they arrive at the starting point, and are reflected again.

The process may repeat several times, and if you blew a short sharp note on a bugle, the note may be reflected to air layer, back to ground originating point, back to air layer, back to ground originating point several times, which does produce a "Ringing" sound, similar to a large well-made bronze bell, which being struck once by the clapper, continues to "Ring" by virtue of it's peculiar shape, and the many reflections of acoustic waves through the metal, until the "ringing" gradually dies out.

The physics of bronze bells are now well understood, but they were found in the early days by trial and error - That is why the bronze bell has the characteristic shape, so it may "ring" properly.

In effect you hear an echo, from the invisible to the eye, air layer.

Because the early writers did not understand the laws of physics in relation to invisible air layers, they supposed there was something magical about the process.

Some early poets wrote about the phenomenon, calling it "The Welkin Ring".

If you try to hear "The Welkin Ring", and are successful, it is quite spectacular, and I had enjoyable times with my children as they, like those early poets, could not see where the repeat (echo) could come from.

The mechanism, as I've said, is simple once you know, but can be an interesting experience for children, afterwards giving them the explanation.

Trust my short explanation assists you.

Kind Regards....

Hello again, all searchers for Truth.

I forgot to add in the weather conditions:

<"....So you are there, cold and in the dark, with no breeze or wind blowing, absolutely calm conditions, under the starry sky, so you then clap your hands or blow a short single note on a loud horn.....">

The editing period expired, while I was adding in the weather details further, so that's why this extra Post.

Kind Regards....

Thanks!

Sounds like the same conditions that produce optical looming (post#51). Too bad I didn't know about it when I lived on the plains of Colorado 60 years ago!

Dick

Very nice Sparky (a bit short though)

Hell is going to freeze over before we get any such conditions around here. What an incredible observation and explanation. It looks like I have the first two leaves on my initial question. One can never know enough. See were this grows too. Thanks again. Ky.

Hi Sparky

Presumptuous me assumed that you would get back to us on this matter. But then again all that empty space would be filled by words. What a waste. Ky.