Over what distance can a pump suck?

To get better answers, start with better questions.

How much water do you want? How much pressure do you want? These questions will drive the answer to the capacity of the pump question. Then decide what power supply you will use. Voltage? Phases? At this point you will have to look at the performance curves of the pumps that fit your above needs.

Hello GeoffP

You will need to establish what quantity and pressure of delivered water you require.

Use a Self-priming pump - see diagrams at left, please.

Read about the self-priming pump - with diagrams, here: http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/12-html/12-12.htm

You haven't listed your Location or Country, (You easily do that in your Member Profile, then it auto-updates through all Topics and Posts you made), so I cannot advise a local supplier for you.

You could look for a supplier here: http://flow-control.globalspec.com/LearnMore/Flow_Control_Flow_Transfer/Pumps/Self_Priming_Pumps

Trust that assists you.

Kind Regards....

Groffp; usually 30 feet, how high above sea level are you? a jet type pump will do much higher, or like the oil well pumps a lift type hundreds od feet. perry

Hello perry

While the theoretical maximum "suction" lift for fresh water is 32 feet, in practice it is somewhat less.

The practical vertical lift for a non-self-priming pump with fresh water, is normally regarded as 26 vertical feet maximum, because of losses and efficiency.

Kind Regards....

According to the Barometer reading that fluctuates between 13 and 16 PSI you would have to have a Pressure Drop for that distance of less than 10 PSI and that would only leave 3-6 PSI to accelerate and move the water and raise it the 9+ Feet noted..

Not likely to even come close.

Thanks for the quick replies. I understand about the limitations on lift it's the actual distance over land, which is relatively even, that I'm not sure about. I would be using 38mm poly pipe. I guess I would also need a one way valve at the draw off point. I'll update my profile, I live in East Coast Australia. Thanks again

head loss for distance over land depends on pipe size and material as well as flow velocity. You might ask you pipe manufacturer what the loss is per foot of pipe.

The loss ends up looking like an elevation change, but I think a 200 meter horizontal run of 38 mm poly pipe won't have much loss.

As said before it all depends on required flow rate and pressure...

i think that your restriction of putting the pump at the delivery end is shortsighted. i have run low power long distances without problems. if you had high tech stuff, or high energy needs, then no. but, a simple cheap pump, no problem. i have run 12v dc 200 feet before, with good results. running 110v ac is simple. also, can you set a solar panel close to the creek. after all, you only need to pump the water up about 15 feet into a tank, then let it gravity feed to your garden. that can be done with cheap scavenger pumps. if it was me, i would just buy some heavy guage 100 ft extension cords and a cheap ac pump. you are lucky, here where i am on solar, i have to pump my water up about 80 feet. my solar panel cost me $700. my low power (90watt 24vdc) pump cost me $700. the power cord from the panel to the pump cost me $100. with a cheap pump and extension cords, you could probably do it for around $100. the worst would be that the life of the pump might be a little less. just start with a cheap one and it doesn't matter. mostly though, just come out of the creek and go up and let it flow down hill to the garden. i would put a small collector tank at the end of the shorthose from the creek. then use a bottom drain on the tank, and let gravity take care of the rest. instead of having to push the water 200 feet.

sorry, i miss read the distance. 200 meters not 200 feet. by the way are you sure that you only need 3 meters of head?

200 meters (~650 feet in real money) of SO cable will probably be cheaper and easier to run than the pipe.

But he will still need the pipe.

Having worked on small volume systems to supply water in rural villages without electricity, I would raise the question of whether an approach of using a small portable diesel drive centrifugal pump to be the prime mover might be more cost effective. Such pumps use very little fuel and can easily develop the head required for these jobs. The pump could be located near the water source or carried to same. The water could then be discharged into a head tank to feed the irrigation system, which hopefully is a good "drip" irrigation system. {I am assuming that the original poster wants to locate the pump as close to the discharge as possible to minimize the use of electrical extensions.}

My dear friend you should refer to Pump manufacturers technical specifications for net positive suction head and pump impeller details that will answer your question after you calculate number of bends,foot valve and length of pipe and vertical distance between your pumps in let and depth at which your suction pipe ends in the water.if you need detailed calculations e-mail your id i shall gladly send you a sample calculations.

crm

No problem doing what you want to do. A basic centrifugal reticulation pump will do the job. The 2.2hp Davey springs to mind. I'd suggest that your 38mm poly is probably a bit small, unless you're using a baby pump. Piping losses on the suction side are much more "expensive" than on the pressure side. As far as I can remember, the standard roll of 38mm poly is 150m and 50mm (internal) is 100m so you're still going to need a join whichever way you go. I mention this because joins on the suction side can be a source of problems. I'd consider 50mm (internal) the minimum for the pump mentioned above but I'd double check with the pump manufacturer to be sure.

You also need a non return valve. I'd suggest locating this at the creek end under water. Some sort of screen to keep rubbish out of the valve (and your sprinklers) and you should be in business. You'll have to manually fill the whole shooting match up with water because it won't self prime but providing the pump is located lower than the outlets you won't have to do it again. If you do, you have a leak and you'll now see the benefit of having the non return in the creek. Any leak can be found!

Totally based on gut feeling, I'd suggest you'd get a flow of around 100 l/m from the above arrangement but if anyone wants to do the sums I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Remember that anyone's creek is also someone else's creek; and the what is pumped from a creek also flows back to the creek...carrying anything suspended or dissolved in it. So be sure not to damage the creek by misuse of fertilizers, pesticides, etc. Also, you might be well advise to consult local riparian regulations for your use of "your creek's" water...and regarding impacts of pumping on creek fauna. That way you can plan for sustainable gardening...not one that might be closed down before harvest.

Just a thought for your consideration.

200 meters of SO cable to place your pump at or very near the supply is the best option.

• 1/2 hp ac pump/motor
• Good quality foot valve (check on the suction inlet)
• PVC pipe

Either way you need to install an electric circuit. By going the extra distance with the pump circuit you will eliminate many problems down the road, even if you were to use a self priming pump its case does not have enough volume to overcome 200 meters. I realize that the check valve close to the suction would cure this problem on paper, but the valve will fail or become fouled sooner or later then you'll have 200 meters of dry pipe to prime

Actually, since this is just for irrigation around your place, here is a good dependable and cheep option:

Place a sump pump in something like a 5 gallon bucket with loads of 1/2" holes drilled all over the sides (100-200 holes).

Run garden hose and extension cords to the pump that is submerged in your water supply.

"...you'll have 200 meters of dry pipe to prime..."

Which is why artbyjoe solved that problem already - pump the water a short distance to a tank and let it gravity feed thru the pipe to the garden out of the tank. Simple. Adds the cost of siting a tank, but cures lots of future maintenance hassles.

"Which is why artbyjoe solved that problem already - pump the water a short distance to a tank and let it gravity feed thru the pipe to the garden out of the tank. Simple. Adds the cost of siting a tank, but cures lots of future maintenance hassles."

The cost and trouble of installing the tank in excess of 10 feet above ground along with concrete base etc. to accommodate the weight of the tank and support structure and water, I assume would not be insignificant unless the holding tank were very small indeed. Gravity feed would drain the tank very slowly unless it was well above the outlet point. I think putting the pump close to the source of water and piping to the irrigation point is the best course of action for the least amount of future headaches.

Maybe so, but I think he's gonna want a tank of some size in the system somewhere. As an overflow control (in case he can't get the pump shut off in time), as a back-up reserve (in times when the pump is down for repair but water is still needed), as a better distribution method, something. If this is for a garden, the flood irrigation method is not as effective as a drip system, and for that, he'll need a tank.

hello mechtech,

let me clarify what i meant by a tank. i did not mean a large tank. i meant a vary small tank. small enough to hang in a tree. just something so that the water from the pump goes up 15 feet then falls into something. then a larger diameter drain than the inlet hose. so, that the water will gravity feed. i was just trying to seperate the 200 meters of hose or pipe from the pump, to reduce its requirements. that little head height could be done with the smallest pumps available, down to 1/40th of a horsepower. think aquarium recirculating pumps, or decorative fountain recirculating pumps. small scavenger pumps would be perfect. he could put a large diameter, low height tank at the garden, so that the system could pump all of the time the power is on , and he could tap the large tank when ever he wanted to water the garden.

i have also seen (online) small paddle wheel water pumps set up on a float. you float this in the middle of the creek. tie off to both sides of the creek. then the moving water turns the paddle wheel, pumping the water. no energy required. also, what is the fall of the creek. could he just go up creek 20 or 30 feet in elevation and put a hose in the creek and the other end in his garden. once you get a syphon going this alos requires no energy.

Have you thought of bringing the water to your suction pipe instead of your pipe to the water?I ask this as I have worked with pumps of all types for 40 years for a living.Long suctions are the most troublesome and normally the most expensive way to go with a fluid system.This is why they are avoided whenever possible.

I am 63.The following have been and still are common ways of watering stock and gardens in areas of the USA.In many types of soil,you can wash a 1 1/4 to 2 inch PVC or steel pipe water well down with a garden hose plus driving down to 20 feet,or even drive a 1 1/4 inch steel pipe water well by using heavy pipe,couplings and cap along with a sledge hammer.Use a wood block cushion on top of the pipe.They can be drove to 12 feet in sandy soil.A "well point" is sold for such.In the right type of soil,your water table may be 4-6 foot due to natural hydraulics from the creek.We often have areas of "Hard Pan",clay or compacted soil where this does not work and a well has to have "Surface ares" in the water table as water slowly seeps into the well through such soil.You normally have hit water water when your well washing water quits washing soil back out the top of your pipe.

Pipe wells can be Gravel packed for better flow.Simply pump out about a a wash tub or large wheel barrow full of dirt or sand and pour the same amount of clean round pea sized gravel down the pipe.This keeps it from caving in and slows the water speed by spreading it over a larger area under ground.You suck up less dirt and have less chance of cave in.

I have dug shallow wells manually with shovels,post hole diggers along with tractor driven augers.Just be sure to SHORE up as you go or it may cave in on you with you in it.NEVER go over 3 feet without doing this for safety reasons as your soil may or may not hold!

Besides putting down farming and stock wells with my grandfather,I worked 2 years with a commercial well driller for 2 years drilling wells to 12 inches and over 500 feet.I hope this may be of help to someone.alfred

How much suck could a good pump suck if a good pump could suck wood!

I am very sorry, I just had to.

"I just had to."

No, you didn't...

Thankfully this isn't Groundhog Day, so we shouldn't have to worry about re-living this moment over and over.

That wasn't just a good answer, that was an excellent answer!

Now the question in my mind is this; would you under any circumstance use the word "riparian" as and adjective to describe the water laws you discussed in your post.

If an Australian would use such a word, then I will stand corrected by Sparky in his previous post. I can assure you that Americans do not...

"riparian"

in the US, far left eco people use it when discussing protecting watersheds.

Ok, Ok, now find me a Texan who uses it....

Ha ha! You expect CR4 to resolve that one for you, too? When even the people in Texas can't decide what a "Texan" really is? ...other than a person who walks into a tavern and asks for "Chevis 'n water"; or requests a "Core's draw"? Then there's that other Lone Star locution...about cats & chickens and guy's & gal's g-------a!

Now, if that doesn't placate you, what will?

Atypical Texan talk:

http://www.metafilter.com/52662/When-in-Texas

http://texaswater.tamu.edu/waterlaw.texas.htm

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/WW/gyw1.html

www.ucowr.siu.edu/updates/pdf/v85_a2.pdf

CR4 Admin: removed broken links

We professional biologists use it all the time. So does the TDEQ (formerly TRNCC) in TX. But I agree it is uncommon otherwise...

OK, OK, OK, OK I stand completely corrected...... From all sides of the world.....

Informed Californians use it because:

• The state's agriculture is crucial to the state and to the nation.
• The state's greater portion of fresh water is drawn/impounded from rivers.
• The Sierra Nevada snow pack that supplies California riverine systems is declining.
• The Colorado River is increasingly in trouble.
• The Delta which supplies the California aqueduct is in a state of crisis.
• The wild and fishery-hatched salmon runs are in such decline (total collapse, in fact) that all commercial harvesting has been suspended.
• The population has been growing at an unsustainable rate.

What more need be said?

I've got to admit that until around four years ago "riparian" was a foreign word to me, but since I've made some applications for "reparation of the riparian zone" of my creek frontage the word is now entrenched into my vocabulary.

Ok everyone thanks for all the replys. Most were really helpful and will give me lots to ponder over. My initial enquiry was wether or not this project was possible and hence my lack of information on types of pump,desired flow rates etc. I live in North Eastern NSW and my creek eventually flows into the Richmond/Wilson River area. I am interested in the pipe bore approach and may consider a few well aimed sledge hammer blows before investing in a pump! Riparian relates to the banks of water courses which includes vegetation and fauna...my pumping of a little garden water would have next to no impact on the riverbank ecosystem...look at Marom Creek on google earth if you are concerned. Anyway thanks again for the info ...maybe we should start a thread on pipe bores????

Within the collapse resistance of the conduit, horizontal distance is not a practical factor ... and 3 metres is not that much to lift. Given the small flow rate needed/preferable for a garden, I would expect that an impeller rated 350(+)GPH would suffice.

Your main concern seems to be with pump priming and a possible reluctance to walk 400 metres down and back, to and from the creek? If that's the case, and if you're running water conduit anyway, why not just run a second conduit at the same time to power the pump near the stream? Pipe doesn't cost much, wires not so cheap (but neither is gardening...), plus a lot quieter having the pump 200 metres away from the switch and the garden.

You are aware of the basic problem so no need to explain that much. Suction side cavitation is what you are trying to avoid.

You can get head loss for pipe length data out of the machinery's handbook or off the web. Based on not having looked it up myself, cause that's your job you should be fine with this.

If you make a little sump, hole in the ground below the water for your intake that will help. You will probably want to screen the intake. Use a large one so it won't plug. If you can make a bell on the end of the intake that helps a lot.

No sharp corners. They cause major pressure drops.

You should not need much of a pump to do the job but you will definitely want the self priming type discussed by others and you will usually want to manually prime the pump on first start up and put in a check valve in the system to keep the pipe full between runs.

If you can expand the capacity of the fluid reservoir on the self-priming pump that can really help. If you have significant problems with cavitation slow down the pump's speed by adding a pulley and belt to the pump drive.

If you can find a check valve that has good flow/very little pressure drop that would be good. Normally you would install the check valve on the intake side, but it will function fine on the outlet side as long as the pump seal integrity is perfect and there are no other leaks. Putting it on the outlet side means no problem creating pressure drop on the intake side.

Larger pipe helps as you will see when you look up the pressure drop flow data online or in a reference, but my seat of the pants says you'll be fine.

Sincerely,

Mr. Gee

another great answer from Mr Gee. keep it up.

You might just have to "Suck It & See..."

I probably shouldn't have said that should I

Sapper

How much muck could a sump pump suck if a sump pump could suck muck?

PLEASE!! enough sucking already, run a wire to a pump and push it

Hello GeoffP.

Do you have data for the strata underneath and around your garden? I suspect that the creek system that you are on has a sand seam in the alluvial levels. You may be able to get a well dug very easily near the garden if the water table is only 3m down.

Get some 2m diameter re-inforced concrete pipe (about 7m of it) and hire a backhoe to dig a hole, insert and joint the pipes so you have a 2m diameter vertical hole and backfill the surround.

Once the pipes are in place, break through at the level where the water is present and then the well will fill from that seam.

You then have a well that you can put a submersible into for your garden. (The reason for the extra depth is so that you have a reserve of water even if you do pump faster than the inflow.)

Much less hassle with footvalves, pipes overland (hot water) and the inefficiency of the distance involved. Also easier to handle during the occasional floods in that district.

Thanks to all those that have answered my enquiry. I solved my problem the cowards way . I had a bore drilled near my barn. Good potable water was found at 33 metres at a flow rate of 60,000 litres per day. the cost was AUD5200 plus pump etc AUD1200. It's way more water than I need and due to good old La Nina we haven't had to rely on it since it was installed. Thanks again for the replys.

The correct question to ask is as follows:

"If I use a self-priming centrifugal pump to deliver [unknown flowrate] of water from my creek to my garden, will the selected [details withheld] pump cope with a suction lift that is 3 metres vertically and 200 metres horizontally given that the currently-chosen inlet pipe diameter is [xx]mm nominal bore?"

It's time to talk to the pump manufacturer. Telephone?