Heating a Driveway in Ontario

Thanks for your reply.

Yes it does add to global warming but if we got the 30% that is normally wasted as heat in an IC engine that at least is a huge leap in efficiency.

They all have snow blowers out there, you couldn't survive without them but it is not a lot of fun at 5.30 am trying to move 6" of snow.

Thanks

Oliver

"plant some big trees along side...in 20 years they'll keep the snow off."

No they won't. In fact, cut any trees down, to take advantage of solar heat, (the very best way to melt an icy driveway).

There are commercial systems:

http://www.warmquest.com/products-snow-melting.php

It's not a bad idea, and I would love to have one of these systems. However, installation can be costly.

Hi Bricktop

Thanks for your reply I'll look into the web sites. I agree about the trees, they get laden with snow and drop into intobig heaps before falling down themselves!

Regards

Oliver

A 4'-6' cedar hedge would stop the snow from drifting. Mine's 1/2 mile long.

Fyi......The areas on the lee shores of the Great Lakes in southern Ontario have been known to get an average of 20cm of snow on a DAILY basis....for months! Last week 50cm fell on the Owen Sound district in one day and it hasn't stopped yet. The area is called the Snow Belt. I live in eastern Ontario and we've got 5 feet of the stuff.....and freezing rain on top....and it ain't even winter yet!

Snow Belt, Snow Bird. What's the difference?

Thanks for your comments at least you understand the problem. My son is just north of Barrie and they had three feet of snow within two days which makes life a bit difficult and you do get fed up with working the snow blower and shovel.

Regards

Oliver

I know that area well. It's not the worst of the snowbelt but it's bad enough....and this year it's exceptionally bad.

Personally I don't think any warming of the driveway will be enough to melt the huge amounts of snow. I'd be inclined to use a small 4wd tractor with a plow attached. I recommend a plow because most of the heavier snowfalls on the area are quite wet and tend to plug up the blowers. Heating a driveway might make it more difficult to eventually clear off the snow in the event the warming doesn't.

good luck

Where will all the melted snow go? Onto a road, freeze and cause accidents.

If your son goes along with this notion I would advise him to get lots of insurance to settle all of the lawsuits from the accidents he will cause.

Seriously, advise him to get a snowblower and warm clothes.

I get up at 5:00 A.M. to shovel or blow my driveway. Sometimes it close to 20 or 30 below.

Thanks for your reply,

My son has the snow blower and warm clothes. The road has a large gully to take water away so that is not a problem.

Thanks

Oliver

Are you going to heat the gully? Dumping all the water into the gully will cause the gully to be filled with hard water (at least until mid spring).

Surprised anyone would have a 180 foot driveway in a heavy snow area. If you do, a snow plow on the front of a full size four wheel drive pickup is the way to go. Way cheaper than tearing up your driveway to put those pipes in. Those people recommending the use of a snow blower on a 180 foot (!) driveway have too much time on their hands, or assume your son is underemployed.

But if you really wanted to heat a driveway, the obvious choice is to lay resistive heating elements on top of the existing driveway, then cover with some asphalt - just enough to protect the elements. And they won't need nearly the protection that pipes containing hot water would, so it will be much more efficient (resistive elements nearer the driveway top than would be pipes).

Of course your electricity bill will increase. And according to some, more global warming will occur. But this is a self-solving problem. Once you have enough global warming that it stops snowing, you won't have to run the heater anymore. A happy equilibrium will have been reached!

"recommending the use of a snow blower on a 180 foot (!)"

Na, 180ft is nothing. I have more than that with 2 spurs. I have a big womp-ass snowblower, and can clear 2ft of snow off it in less than an hour.

Unit's such as these use much less power than you think. The secret is they must be on right as the snow starts falling. They don't work at all if you turn them on after there's snow on the driveway.

There actually not that expensive to run. Consider that if you pay someone to plow, they're going to want about $75 per storm, and probably another $50 to sand. My snowblower costs over $2000, then there's the gas and maintenance.

My sister had an electric unit installed when she paved the parking lot for her dance studio. It actually saves her a ton of money, and gives her the confidence of knowing that the risk of someone slipping is greatly reduced.

If you're going to bother to do all that diggin up, check out a geothermal solution.

There's a place up here in Barrie that does it, although their name escapes me right this moment...

Sorry, had to look at the guys van up the street. :-)

http://members.barriedirect.info/Yanch_Heating_And_Air_Conditioning-I/website/

Hi

Thanks for your reply. The geothermal way is attrative as the ground around Barrie is sand and easy to dig. If you can recall the name of the people in Barrie who do this sort of work I would be gratful to have their name.

many thanks

Oliver

Bingo.........that's been the model I've always seen. Heating never removes the snow pile-up.........just the residual ice and slush formation.

Wet snow takes forever to melt and is virtually impossible to blow let alone shovel.

Snow belt airports successfully melt piles of snow on specifically designed "hot pads" to save the cost of hauling thew snow away from the airport. Instead of running a truck several miles, the trucks dump the snow on the hot pad and melt the snow into the storm sewer system. Systems alledgedly save energy and labor costs, but I have note been privy to the operating cost figures.

Wet snow and high snow piles are difficult to melt but not impossible. All it takes is enough time and money!

Get your son to check what the bridge builders and road maintenance guys use. Because bridge decks are prone to freezing many of them are now retro fitted with heating. Same thing goes for many apartment building parking garages. Especially those having an upslope to street level. they have to have de-icers or no one would get out on a snowy day.

I used to live in a town with a steeply arched bridge over the 4 track railtroad yard. They must have used an engineering student on his work term to design it. The bridge had heating alright but no one remembered to place drains at either end. You guessed it. Every bad snow day traffic piled up on both sides as cars slid into each other, helter skelter. Did I mention the traffic light a the bottom of one end of the bridge. It was chaos.

Hi,

Thanks for your comments especially the last one. It is just a matter of waiting and we will have no snow?

Oliver

We used to live in Kearney, MO on 5 1/2 acres. Our drive way was 680 ft long and gravel. If we got 6" of snow I had a foot across the driveway because of drifting and at the end of the drive where it was cut in we'd get 3 and 4 ft. That was no fun to blade off with the tractor.

I often thought if I had the money to pave it I'd add a hydronic loop. It would take a very large tank burried considerably below the frost line and pumps to circulate glycol in tubes under the drive. It might work.... one would have to do the calculations and assume what the heat transfer coefficients would be.

As far as running how water out from a heat exchanger on a diesel engine goes... you'd go broke buying diesel fuel for it. By using a ground sourced loop (if it worked) all you'd be spending is the power for the pump(s).

Along with this I've often wondered why they don't burry large tanks near overpasses and then when embedded sensors detect ice conditions they could spray the ice melt solution on the overpass. They'd gain a bit from having the solution at the temp if the ground below the frost line.

Travis

This is starting to be done in Illinois and a few other bridges. Ice sensors and weather detection determine when to spray the solution to the bridges to clear frost and ice.

www.tycothermal.com has a bunch of products which can do the job.

Don't forget to install a heated gutter at the end to collect the water and guide it to a save area.

Another option: move to the Bahama's.

If ethylene glycol is used the Environment Ministry will force him to dig it all up. It poses serious environmental concerns in the event of a leak.

"If ethylene glycol is used the Environment Ministry will force him to dig it all up. It poses serious environmental concerns in the event of a leak"

A possible alternative to Ethylene Glycol, which is considerably more environmentally friendly (is even used in some food products) is Propylene Glycol. Just a thought

Yes, good point....this is the first year I'm using propylene glycol in a solar collector. So far so good but I'm not sure about longevity or of any chemical reactions that might result.

Although, with some metals it has caustic properties, calcium chloride is another.

If your son owns the land on one or both sides of the driveway, why not lay a new driveway making sure that it has less of an incline than the present one......? Zigzag up the hill, make it a nice feature with a turn area at the top.

Or just make a parking area at the bottom for when snow/ice are around? One hour with a B'dozer and some gravel or slabs.....

Using any energy source to melt the snow is really "Brown" not "Green".......even a blower is not really good....

Absolutely! That's exactly what you want - a scenic meandering driveway with lots more driveway to clear off.

And even better is the second suggestion - just clear off a spot at the base of the hill and leave your cars out in the elements. That way you get the extra exercise and elemental exposure from walking up and down the hill and clearing snow and ice off your vehicle each day.

And the final point about using an energy source to clear your driveway being bad is the best point of all. Chuck that snow blower and get a shovel. Great exercise there - you'll be exercising all day. If you don't have a heart attack or blow out your lower back. "What does not kill me, makes me stronger."

Extending this line of "reasoning" a little further... I'll bet that big old house is consuming way more energy in heating than we are talking about clearing the driveway - you have to heat every day, all day, all winter. Screw that! Build an igloo down by the cleared off area for your cars and live there in the winter. No fires, though - they release CO2. Bring your dogs in to generate heat. Just like the Eskimos do - a one dog, two dog, or three dog night, depending on the temperature.

My family had a similar driveway when I was a kid. This is pretty much what we did. Clear space for two cars, then shovel a walkway the rest of the way to the house. Worked fine for us.

Why don't you use geo-thermal technology instead of make making atmosphere more worse. As lots of heat is there underneath your driveway, try to extract this thermal energy.

Anthony

Canada has real good geo-thermals so while you're doing this you might as well look for oil. Just make sure you drill real deep. Ignore any gold that might plug up the bit.

I have about 120' to the house and another 600' to the barn. I'm using a front loader on a compact tractor to clear the drive.

There is a scheme being used in the Netherlands where the hot water from the summer air conditioning is pumped under the parking lots into the ground water. In the winter the water is used to help heat the buildings and also keeps the pavement clear.

I tried to find a reference for this but no luck. The initial capital investment would be high but in the long run it might prove economical.

Just raise the driveway a few feet and the wind will clear it most of the time.

My Indiana house uses a sidewalk heater to melt the ice in teh driveway and sidewalk- thermostat activated, and is on a timer that turns it on before I leave and arrive, and I can over-ride the timer.

Costs about $12.00 US per year in electricity.

Put a solar heat panel on the roof, run the water through it to pipes in the driveway and let it do its thing. No electricity, no energy expended, no operational costs. Leave it on all winter and turn it off in the summer or re-direct the water to your hot water system for use in the house.

As for the run-off from the melted snow, what does one do when it rains? Do you worry about the run-off then? I don't think so. It will find its way to somewhere.

I'm not sure that plan will work that well for the snow that falls at night.

The last few years have been good here, I have not had to use my snow plow at all. Saved enough money to upgrade my air conditioning system.

Great solution, as long as the snow falling on the driveway magically doesn't fall on the roof. And as long as the sun is shining brightly on the roof while the snow falls on the driveway. And, as another poster pointed out, as long as the solar panel continues to work at night.

And don't forget the high performance insulation required to keep all the heat loss under the driveway, and not between panels and driveway.

Unrelated to this particular post, but is anyone even considering the ROI on this water pumping scheme relative to a snow plow or snow blower? Unless you are looking at decades for payback, forget it.

I've used this site for design guidelines for snow melt systems.

http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/snow_melting_systems/index.html

I do not judge one way or the other on energy efficiency or environmental impact of various snow removal ideas. Each site and system offer different alternatives and economies, and for some situations snow melting is the best way to go. One note is they do not need to operate 24/7, only when you need to melt snow. Since the operation is intermitant, I would not recommend dedicating an IC engine to provide the heat.

Hi

Many thanks for your reply.

I have looked at the site www.concretenetwork.com and it is really full of useful information, including the importent one of how much it costs to run.

Thanks for your help.

Oliver

Get all your friends to install drive heaters, lawn heaters etc, and wait for global warming to sort out your problem. Advantages... zero cost, you look environmentally friendly...........Downsides, takes a few years.

Simon

or move somewhere warmer

Well I think its time for the Canadian view on this subject, S Ontario, in fact, I am 35 min North of Toronto, and about 35 min S of Barrie (Snow Belt area from the lake effects is the Barrie area).

Southern Ontario has a perculiar weather pattern, temperatures are often well below 0 Deg Celsius, in fact often at or below 0 Fahrenheit in the coldest winter months. We often content with freezing rain which occurs at the freezing mark. To use any kind of a heating system under a driveway is uncommon here.

Actually I would like to hear from someone from (non City) Ontario that is using a system like that successfully, as my own driveway may be able to adopt that system (25ft long).

Snowfalls in Ontario have been occasionally up to 2 feet overnight in the past, occasionally coupled with drifting snow. For an open drive-way out in the country (no subdivision) it is possible to have drifts up to 6 feet, particularly in Barrie, Ontario and further north. I am not sure that a heated driveway could keep up, particularly at the length mentioned. In either case, it would seem that an electric solution would prevail over liquid systems - please correct me as needed. It is a blessing that our summers are HOT, and dealing with a little snow on the drive is just a way of life here, I`d rather not have the snow, but rather than Hurricanes or Tornadoes (these are very rare in Ontario, and are generally in the Barrie are if they touch down at all).

Use a Snow Fence to at least deal with drifting snow, the example below can be applied to a long driveway, note that the distance to the drive is critical.

Having a hot Coco also helps the driveway phenomenon (after shovelling).

HI,

Thanks for your reply. My son is 10 minutes north of Barrie so your comments are very relavent. They had 2 feet of snow overnight and then another foot the following night which as you appreciate with a long drive is a lot of snow to clear. The drive has been lengthened to reduce the incline but has yet to be surfaced so the laying of cables or pipes is possible without to much disruption. He has a snow blower (doesn't everyone in that part of the world?) but there comes a point when the snow either side of the drive is so high you cannot blow snow over it!

I know the view is that IC engines are bad for climate change but the normal efficieny is at best 35/40% the rest being lost as heat and noise. So I am really looking for someone who has taken an IC engine and modified it so all the energy i.e. crankshaft and waste is turned into heat. So say an engine giving 30kws would at last provide double that as we only want heat.

I am thinking of putting my request onto the automotive side of CR4 to see if I get a response.

Thanks again.

Oliver

Winter snow fences are used in many areas of North Dakota.

It seems that driveway heaters are needed at the same time that heaters in the house are needed the most. Could a system be fabricated that uses wasted heat going out of the chimney to warm a brine mix that would run under the driveway. All that would require additional input would be the circulation pump. That would be inexpensive to run, and not contribute to global warming very much.

The driveway only needs heat when you need to melt the snow. A house in the northern climes is usually heated 24/7. If you have a high efficiency condensing furnace or boiler, you are not wasting very much heat. Move to North Dakota for a few winters, and you will learn which ideas work and which do not!

Simple answer: no as you need approx 300W/m² (at least) to cope with the snowfall.

The deicing of your windshield is approx 800W/m².

Depends on what level of service is required. Critical applications, like emergency room ramps and areas similar that cannot tolerate slippery surfaces have been know to run 600W per Sq meter. For residential, 250-300W/Sq meter is normal.

One factor is how much snow needs to be melted, for the heat of fusion loading.

The second factor is how many hours of operation. An emergency ambulance ramp operates 100% if snow and ice are expected. A residential system can be at the customers discretion.

One important detail is where does the snow melt go, and heat tracing that path to prevent ice backups.

Whether this is economical is up to the customer to decide.

It looks like both of us have some experience in this field.

We sometimes need to go up to 1200W/m² for iceicle prevention on gutters.

But we also have the experience less is more.

only 15-30W/m self regulating.

Hi Gwen,

Great picture showing how it can work. This is never Belgium Gwen you don't have mountains!!

Thanks for the useful data.

Oliver

This is South Germany, a test station for this application.

heigth 2650m

the camera is pointing to the east.

The CR4 functionality is great: the picture is normaly refreshed every 5' and CR4 really takes the last picture.

Sorry, I do not see the picture.

Anyway, I must confess my experience with snow melting is limited and dated to large airport studies about 10 years ago. I suspect the principle has not changed much, since the heat load is mass of snow times the heat of fusion for water. (+ safety factor based on application)

My experience with snow is not limited, I grew up in North Dakota, USA (state motto, " - 40 degrees keeps the riff-raff out").

The fact that you don't see the picture has all to do with the shape of the earth: it is round. (yes it is)

When you checked the blog we were all asleep.

Check it when it is day in Europe.

Thank you for the useful data.

Oliver

Bricktop's mention of solar heat brought to mind use of a series of sola-tubes concentrating light through spaced Fresnel lenses directing light onto conductive strips implanted in the concrete. Wow! I'm really getting out there

But you need the heat when it is snowing.

Oh I'm sharp today.

Sharp maybe but what's your point?

The drive way can be warm before, after or during by manipulating light to make heat whether Sol or generated sources. Think on it sharpie

As explained before: just storing the heat will not do the trick, 300 - 500 W/m² is to much and through radiation the heat will all be gone before the end of Autumn

Unless you can store it in an insulated vault. But just calculate the amount of heat you need to melt the snow which falls in one winter for the complete driveway.

Do not forget that you need to prevent the melting water from freezing. (heat you have to supply but which does nothing for the snow melting)

After all, moving to the Bahama's is not such a bad idea.

But just calculate the amount of heat you need to melt the snow which falls in one winter for the complete driveway.

According to The 1999 ASHRAE "Applications" handbook, for Buffalo NY that is around 125,000 BTU/sq. foot for an average season's snowfall. Your number will vary with location and seasonal variables.

Now you have to define a vault to store this energy based on summers heat. (max temp 60 to 70°C cooled to 5°C at the end of the winter)

but for this exercice you're not allowed to move to the bahama's.

Hmm...Is a small dog or the sola-tube is too large?

I try not to be restrictive initially though consideration of driveway speed to prevent melting tires should be out of the theme ya think.

Ya say an inductive type heating method?? No probably not eh?

If we could reproduce the light properties to duplicated those of Sol, could they be confined to a sola-tube enclosure and manipulated thus?

Probably.......but it would be more effective to use fibre optic cable coupled to a magnifying collector. Some architectural designs use it very effectively for both heat and light. Old sailing ships used something similar to illuminate below decks during daylight....collectors and reflectors.

can you put a roof over it?

Hi Hux,

Technically possible but my daughter in law is not keen as she says it will look terrible and the open end would face the prevailing westerly winds and would fill up with snow. Also the weight of snow is significant and so the covering would have to be substantial.

Thanks for the thought.

Oliver

You can heat the roof to get rid of the snow load.

"Heating a Driveway in Ontario"-

Answer:Don't ! Instal a motorised cable pulley to tow up, and lower your car. - Or to save power,(- if the drive is wide enough-) run a counter-weight up/down (eg a sleigh/mine-trolley..(NB 1 cu.m water/ice =0.9 ton approx.)

hgs@unimatic.com

BUENOS DIAS:

I AM AFRAID THE WAY YOU THINK WILL BE NOTHING BUT EXPENSIVE ; YOU CAN USE INDUSTRIAL SALT AND SPREAD ALL OVER THE HIGWAY. MAKE A TEST

Hello YUMASQ,

I take it you don't use the shift key, on this forum using UPPER case in synonymous with yelling.

The latitude prohibits use of salt because salt becomes ineffective at about 18°F, salt treated with calcium or mag brine solution will perform to about -10°F. The subject locale mean temperature would characteristically excludee of salt by mid October.

Salt would also be expensive due to high depth of snow. Also, the runoff would soon kill off any roadside vegetation and trees, and create waste land that would erode away.

The viable choices are:

1 pay the time and energy to plow the snow

2 pay the upfront cost and energy for snow melting system

3 invest in snowshoes or cross country skis

4 move the garage and/or house by the road

5 stock up in the fall, then hunker down and do not leave the house in the winter.

Every situation is different, and requires an economic analysis to determine the best choice for current situations.

You forgot an option: move out there, it rarely snows in eastern Congo, I have even been told that property is rather cheap in that region.

6 Airplane tickets.

It would be less prohibitive to park auto in heated garage at driveway end and use snow-cat to traverse driveway. As it is having put the cart before the horse

What about a sheet metal platform which lies on the ground, and when you want your car out, press a button and hydraulic rams lift it to about the top of the garage door level