What to do? but practical and not lethal ideas only please.

"Maybe the reality is that people in general don't know any ways, methods, means, to handle politicians, top bankers, warlards, etc."

Sure they do, like always with a buck.

And then there was "ATLAS SHRUGGED" (authored by Ayn Rand)

My copy 35th Anniversary Edition copy righted by Ayn Rand in 1957, my volume published 1992, I suggest everyone get a copy and read it.

AND; Whereas; we the people of the these United States of America wish to re-create a more Perfect Union intended for the benevelent future of our issue and theirs, and theirs and in Honor of all of our War dead and crippled from the many years of wars past and to wars yet to be forced upon us, and in Honor of our Founding Fathers & Mothers who suffered to provide us with all of the opportunities we now share,

" I respectfully suggest that We the People command that our Government Nationalize our Banking System, and our Energy Production Systems through out this entire nation."

Though I personally dislike providing our Govt. with too much authority, we are surrounded by powerful Governments and inveious peoples around the world who would be pleased to take from us all that we have achieved. I will spare you the description of those peoples, you know who you believe them to be.

We absolutely must enforce a policy of trade balance between imports and exports. Debt reduction can be achieved through minimal luxury taxation, and fair wages and salary controls so that the imbalance that exists across this nation today become a past memory. Put an End to State and Federal income taxes. create a fair minimum living standard for all with a provision that those who wish to elevate themselves above the minimum fair standard have the priviledge to do so with out being taxed for their time and effort to do so. No one should be restrained from getting more through their extrodinary but honorable efforts.

Never again should we be held hostage by industry and the investment interprizes.

AND; Now, what do we do with a State of California, that Calls themselves the State of the Golden Bear, long gone since around the year 1900 or so, a State where everything, even their debt is inflated. The first step is to restrict imported labor from the south, and employ and pay a fair wage to their own people who cannot even find work.

Anybody ever hear of the late Hughy Long, if not for the corruption he would have been a hellova man.

TMF

Holy Kingfisher, 2much! I applaud half your post and shiver in my boots at the other half. But, I have a serious question about nationalizing energy production. Would you take over ownership of the mineral/oil rights as well, or just the actual production?

Hello TP45, thanks for the response!

I am a die hard profiteer and I would never think of taking anything of value from any one with out fair compensation. That includes their coal, natural gas and crude oil. However if we continue down the path we now follow, no one but the very wealthy will be able to afford any of that stuff or pay for the pleasure of having it available. That will lead to another revolution, this time amongst ourselves, and I certainly don't wish to see that happen.

In 1776 we counted our population in the hundreds of thousands, including the Native Americans, today we count in the millions. We were justified in fearing a strong and powerful Government. However we have come a few miles to far to continue with an antiquated monetary system. For the benefit of this nation and the entire investing and laboring world we simply must take control of our finantial destiny away from a non profit corporation that really answers only to their management.

Regarding the energy crisis and the energy producers, they have demonstrated that only their personal welfare is important to them. We have already wittnessed power failures that are the result of individualism and piss pore management, and it is not going to get better. The grid should be managed by a single entity and that unfortunately is the Govt.

Which part did you applaud anyway?

TMF

You are correct about Ayn's opinion regarding Govt. intervention, However society as we know and live today must have rules to survive by, and these rules must be made in our Democratic System accordingly. The basic needs of survival have changed as we have multiplied beyond reason. If we are to avoid a national revolution, certain things must happen. Among them is making "available to the masses" the basic needs to survive in this modern world. It includes the reduction in the cost to rent or borrow money by reducing the risk, and rewarding the risk taker with limitations of profit. Unlimited profiteering for the haves that deny those in need who could normally pay for these needs or desires, leads to confrontations through society as a whole. Further, other profiteers are effectively denied a reasonable opportunity to gain a fair share of the available profit. This also results in the rich getting even richer and the entire remaining element of society getting poorer. The masses must be allowed to exist and survive in reasonable comfort or the value of riches becomes irrelevant.

"Remember Always, The Rules, there Must be Rules to survive by, or survival becomes an impossibility"!

TMF

You must have read a different version of Atlas Shrugged than I and the rest of my family did (a well worn paper back if ever there was one).

Your interpretation and application of the ideas put forth in Atlas Shrugged are completely ass backward.

It includes the reduction in the cost to rent or borrow money by reducing the risk, and rewarding the risk taker with limitations of profit.

This sounds like a page out of some Banking Act that could be found in Atlas Shrugged (as an example of how bankrupt the government and most of the society was). "Reward the risk taker with LIMITATIONS of profit"? So, if I loan someone $100,000 I am to be "rewarded" by having my return "limited"?

A free market thinker you are not.

As far as nationalizing industry and resources goes - didn't you see what happened when in Atlas Shrugged when the steel industry was taken over by the government? Didn't you see what happened to the rail roads when the government took over?

In case you missed it, Hank and Dagney and the rest of the capitalist industrialists threw in the towel and left the world behind to start anew in Galt's Gulch (reported to be somewhere in Colorado).

Unfortunatly capitalism and industrialism in this country have been so maligned by our leftist leaders that now the once giant Big 3 (well, two of them at least, Ford is trying to do it alone) have their hands stuck out begging to be taken over by the government. Sadly the corporate heads, the union leadership and the government politicians will make fine bedfellows.

Yes, I think you completely missed the point of Atlas Shrugged. I would hazard to guess that you identified more with Jim Taggard than John Galt or Dagney Taggard.

I shutter to think what your take on The Fountainhead is.

Travis

Actually, I didn't miss the point at all, I did however prompt a response from you.

Unfortunately, you and many others fail to understand that if you have all of the gold and no one else has any, that your gold will have no value. I stated in a previous post that all of your gold will not buy you even one bite of my last stale sandwitch, as you will die from starvation admiring your gold and in the end I'll have anyway.

Frankly put, I am a diehard property rights advocate and that includes property of every venue and kind. I despise the thought that Big Government can have so much control of my life already, however I am not blinded by desire and greed. I see where the vast majority of the population is and has been squeezed almost to death by the controllers of a CENTRAL BANK that got it wrong and THE GREAT WALL STREET, and the Ignoramouses Heading up the Investment Banks.

I see where my property, "real land" suffered inflated value, and taxes increased accordingly, and now the land gets devalued, with only a minimal tax reduction, and I did not support the runaway price increases that are the result of subprime issue. I was satisfied to see my land value increase under normal circumstances.

Essentially sir I got two basic over all points of view from the book and from my experience as the President of the Highlands County Property Rights Asso. and as an Interveaner in the creation of the Florida Ordered and Required Local Comprehensive Plan.

I despise local governments for their demonstrated stupidity, however I realize that some Governance is absolutely needed to level the playing field so that even the small players have at least a modicum of a chance to profit with out being unwillingly swallowed up by either the Govt. or big enterprise/banks.

We, just as the rest of the First World Nations, are obliged to live with a monetary system. And: we must have electricity, transportation and the other basics of modern live. Frankly sir, I am pissed off at the local power corporations and would be delighted to see Federal ownership of the national grid. Have you forgotten EMRON so quickly!

A Government OF, BY and FOR the PEOPLE. I don't see where that statement calls for control of the population by having a Private Non Profit Corporation control it's primary means of exchange.

TMF

cwarner: Oh -- you think a consumption tax is such a great idea?

Do you have any money in the bank or money market funds? Do you have any assets bought with money you have already paid tax on. Well, under a consumption tax guess what?

YOU GET TO PAY TAXES ON THAT MONEY A SECOND TIME. Still sound like a good idea? Sounds great if you've got nothing today and see only a future for yourself that will raise your net worth.

So you're retired and have a 401K or an regular IRA. That hasn't been taxed yet. You take money out and pay at a lower rate than the average working person. Likely in the 15% range. Can you imagine in your wildest dreams a consumption tax that completely replaces the income tax being only 15%. All the estimates I've heard put it in the 20-30% range.

IMHO a start of a consumption tax at 1% and a yearly increase of 1 or 2 % with comparable decreases in the income tax tables is probably the best answer. That would certainly motivate me to spend my previously taxed savings sooner than later. Might be a good tactic for doing a little part to influence people to start buying again.

Ed Weldon

First of all, a consumption tax is levied on items removed from the system. Investments are not consumption. Investments are a form of savings. You would be taxed on the profits you gained from your investments ONLY after you have removed they money from the account and purchased, say, a new car or a house or a Blackberry (or food, if we take this to the ultimate, but that is an even harder sell). By not taxing earnings, only consumption, one encourages savings, which increases the pool of capital available for development. While there would be some sort of "double taxation" if ever we were to pursue a consumption tax (i.e., for those who have already paid income tax on the money in their investment or savings accounts), this would be a short term effect. The issue with an income tax, especially the "progressive" system used in the US, is that it effectively puts a ceiling on how far the individual can go. It discourages productivity, because, after a certain level, additional effort on your part only goes to feed the government coffers, so why bother? When I left the States, my total tax bill was 57% (federal, state, local and social security). I was not a wealthy man, but it was pretty obvious, I was not going to get wealthy under that system...

You say: "While there would be some sort of 'double taxation"if ever we were to pursue a consumption tax (i.e., for those who have already paid income tax on the money in their investment or savings accounts), this would be a short term effect.

I don't care whether it's a short term or a long term effect!! It's another 25-30% cut out of every nickel, dime and dollar I already paid income taxes on and I saved from my paychecks over 45 years of working whether I invested it in my house, personal property, savings accounts or bought stock with it. When I or my heirs would turn that into cash in the wallet and use it to buy stuff we'd get it right where the sun don't shine.

So I saved and invested rather than consume every bit. It was bad enough to watch the government suck 25% in income taxes out of the 4-5% interest paid on savings accounts while they inflated the currency 5% every year. But I stuck with it. It was the right thing to do........ uhhh, wrong I should have spent it all on a great big party, spent myself right into debt?

Well I'm going to tell you there are millions of older Americans (who vote) that will learn about just how ugly a quick switch over from income taxes to your idealized consumption tax will be once some politician makes serious talk about it and thereby puts his career on a sacrificial altar. There are a few of us that were smart enough to keep at least some of our savings liquid enough that they weren't cut up by the financial collapse. A government grab at that resource will not go down quietly.

Ed Weldon

Though I personally dislike providing our Govt. with too much authority, we are surrounded by powerful Governments and inveious peoples around the world who would be pleased to take from us all that we have achieved. I will spare you the description of those peoples, you know who you believe them to be.

The above should read:

we are surrounded by powerful Governments and inveious peoples around the world who would be pleased to take from us all that we have borrowed.

The real problem IMO is what I call the Credit Culture. I challenge you to take a look at other societies that do not follow the North American attitude of buying what they can't afford on credit. How are thier economies bearing the current conditions?

With a government taking the lead and setting the example by running with a deficit in the trillions, it is no wonder the economy is in the condition it is in.

The right thing to do IMO is to let these comapnies, banks, businesses and individuals that spent themselves into trouble bear the burden of thier own debt. Bailing them out will teach them what? How will that improve anything? The basic operating with a debt philosophy is what has to change.

Take from us all that we have borrowed! I take a little bit of exception to that phrase. We didn't loan them the lives, arms legs, and eyesight of our many troops who fought to preserve their freedom to govern themselves in what ever manner they chose.

Expecting the world economies to bone up and take responsibility for the problems that we helped to cure by insuring their freedom doesn't seem like too much to expect to me.

Remember always that we began paying an income tax to pay off the 1 st world war debt. Who do you suppose has been baying for the other war debts. and the "EFFORT" TO PREVENT OTHER WARS? There is no free ride. If we get the costs to maintain a free world for these other bastards returned by skipping out on paying back the money we have now borrowed, that will be dambed alright with me.! I am still paying that tax!

TMF

In which part of the world do you live? Recommendation should be related to geographical position and political situation.

"Recommendation should be related to geographical position and political situation".

Defend that assertion please.

L.J.

Dear Milo,

Thank you for the wisdom. However,

I believe that economically we are waging a war... the fight of our lives, and only by working together with righteous people can we prevail. The foe is well organized. If you don't think so, you just haven't been keeping up. All the intelligence and university degrees in the world will not help reduce your taxes, unless you take action, and know what to do, and have the authority to do it. If congress votes hundreds of billions of dollars to 'fix the economy', but provides no oversight whatsoever, your great great grandchildren have just been put into debt, and you think that 'self-sufficient' thinking is going to help? In reality, the bailouts are the biggest tax there is, and we have NO control over it. How do you fix that? Don't preach, just tell me some answers.

OP.

There is a comfort in banding together.

A safety in a herd or flock. but that is not the only way.

Sometimes departing from the herd creates a sustainable way.

Condemning "self sufficient" is why the whiners are getting handouts.

Think about that.

I'm not preaching, I'm demonstrating a way.

What "caesar" does with what he takes from me is up to him. What I do with what i get to keep is up to me.

Our system is broken, there are no fiscal conservatives.

Deal with it.

milo

there are no fiscal conservatives.

They sure talk the talk though. Perhaps a short study of ethics in their formative years.........nah.......I'm off on my perfect world rant again......

a short study of ethics???

milo

Yes, ethics, if I got your meaning right. The essential function of Wall Street is to allocate capital. It is done on the basis of trust.....as is most business. Debts are bought and sold and investments are allocated through those brokers who depend on the integrity of the system to make good...at least to the point where everybody will get a piece of the pie and or dividend (eg..Citi).

The warning signs were evident three years ago. Lehman Bros (and others) were still issuing the 'all clear' up until a week prior to the collapse. Henry Paulson had investments with Morgan Stanley and still issued 'all ok' statements through rose coloured glasses...........I could go on.

Now the banks have gone zombie. I doubt throwing money at them will fix anything. There is only one way to get rid of bad debt.....write it off or the infrastructure that supports development will collapse _{^{(my two bits worth}}).

My own example is that 30 years worth of business relationships has taken an 80% nosedive in recent months. There are those who depend on me to keep their instruments working but who no longer can afford the cost. I'll help them out as long as I can but not to the point where I go bust. Otherwise, it's plan B.

Milo -- I'm optimistic. A new crew is taking over in Washington. They look like they will be more competent than their predecessors. I wish them well but time will tell.

They can not do it by themselves. They need the support of the majority of American people. That includes people that take positions like:

"None of this was my doing; let them all fend for themselves" or

"Was fun while it lasted; let's see how we can scam the new crowd so we can keep the party rolling" or

"I don't care about anyone whose name I don't know" or

"I worked hard for my present security; everyone else should follow my example (forget that I was fortunate enough to have good genes and/or a great family to raise me)" or

"My ideology is "NO NEW TAXES'. I'm ready to see the destruction of anything else, doesn't matter what, to sustain that position" or

"What recession?" or

"Keep the party going. Who cares about those that get to pay the bills. We don't even know their names. But that's later. Likely we'll all be dead. "..........................

Ed Weldon

You said:Maybe the reality is that people in general don't know any ways, methods, means, to handle politicians, how top bankers, warlards, etc.

1. Remove the nose rings, and ignore the political BS. I found it quite interesting last week when Congress was attempting to formulate a bailout plan for Detroit with the financial fate of the nation potentially hanging in the balance one congressman questioned Detroit executives extensively on the size of their carpool and who drove to Washington. Obviously political posturing to placate the masses, in my opinion this congressman was not doing his job, he was seeking to have soundbites for his next reelection bid.

It is quite appropriate that congressmen are not impeached they are recalled, like a defective Pinto, a recall or two might help Congress focus on the issues and not their next reelection campaign. It would also go a long way in illustrating that we are paying attention to what goes on in Congress.

Possibly we all need to accept collective responsibility for the subprime loan crash, and the consequences that followed. I don't have the figures in front of me but during the housing expansion something like 60% of the people that owned a house, had two or more houses, it didn't require an economics degree to realize there had to be an end to the pyramid scheme, however when people are making money they're happy, and certainly tend to develop myopia as to the potential long-term consequences.

There are 100 senators and about 435 representatives in Congress plus a lamebrain lame duck president and vice president for a grand total of 537 politicians I find it hard to believe that they're all brain-dead, it is almost certain that many foresaw the economic consequences of the subprime loan market.

It is easy to see that a politician shouting to the world that the loan standards need to be tightened up would not only been ignored, but probably would've failed to gain reelection as well. As long as the American public is happily putting money in their wallet they are only hearing what they want to hear, and they certainly didn't want to hear anything that would have led to a Economic slowdown, a slowdown three years ago would've certainly been better than the train wreck we have now.

So my solution hold our representatives immediately and directly responsible. The $700 billion bailout for Wall Street, also had many smaller special interest bills attached to it, again my point with the financial fate of a nation hanging in the balance, Indian bingo was hardly a priority, the fact is the only way the bill passed was a satisfied the special interest politicians.

L.J. -- You speak much wisdom here. It is a good answer. Dare I try to add to it........

No man is an island unto himself. We all depend on others and when they suffer we suffer a bit ourselves. We are to some extent the keepers of our brothers. When others make a mistake we shouldn't simply turn our backs on them because we had no part in the failure.

Perhaps our ability to help is justifiably limited. This is usually a reality. But it does no one credit to retreat behind a self imposed wall of ideology or pure self interest. Regardless of your position about religion it is worthy of note that most if not all of the world's great religions make the helping of those less fortunate a high order priority and a fundamental factor in human life.

Ed Weldon

I would suggest first learning your rights and then learning how to effectively assert those rights.

In doing that you will find what is going on in detail. Along the way you will find others of the same mindset and ethics.

You will find more BS than at an over-unity convention. Things like Strawman corporations etc. Take nothing at face value and look for actual results.

One you become a Jurist in your rights and can protect your self and others, you can teach others to do the same creating circles of reform.

Here are a few links to get you started

http://rochesterlaw.org/

http://www.legalbears.com/

http://www.fija.org/

You can also join Tips and Tricks @ Yahoo.com a common mans legal forum. Legal Bear is the moderator and does a good job of keeping out the junk.

Remember good advice has not only the hows but the whys.

Brad

I remember reading some where that a person should vote for the person that represents his needs, as voting for an ideal is not reality? So if you are short on material good, vote for some one that will take it off the greedy bastards, if you have all you need, vote for the person that will protect you from the envious. And reality is, the more you have, the more intelligent you are, so this might be a dumb answer?

Regards JD.

Invest massively in renewable energy and atomic fusion - energy commodity depletion and the resulting runaway price rises of raw materials is the cause of the current 'credit crunch', when prices do fall, its generally as a result of demand failure, not increased production. Clv:)

I am wondering if Democracy has failed?. Communism has already collapsed in Russia. Imperialism has become the part history. Such problems are not only faced in U.S but also in many countries across the world. People are at mercy of all these vultures who not only eat your flesh alive but also dig it out of your grave. I am sorry I can not suggest immediate solution but one day people will revolt against the system when it is unbearable for them.

"I am wondering if Democracy has failed?"

One major reason for the failure of Communism is that their system redistributed wealth. It took it from those of ability and gave to others on the basis of their need.

It thus destroyed any incentive for creativity or productivity amongst those who worked hard. Those who creative were not rewarded and eventually gave up. It also created a proletariat class who reveled in their power and lived a life of extreme luxury.

There is a distinction between an economic system and a political system that you are not making.

The only economic system that has been shown to be appropriate to a Democracy is a free economy and Capitalism.

The problem is that it doesn't exist anywhere as a truly free economy but is constantly being messed with by arrogant politicians who forever are trying to do things for the "public good" whatever that means.

As an example of that please note the catalyst for the current "crises" was the members of the Congressional Banking Commission (Barney Frank, notably) who demanded that the banks stop "Red Lining" certain communities as being high risk mortgage areas. The Feds insisted that the banks grant mortgage money to people with little or no visible income, bad credit history and with no equity in the house they were buying. Too make matters worse, those people were sold balloon notes with low interest payments that suddenly skyrocketed.

This and what happened after that are the result of government intervention where it should not have and lack of oversight where it promised it would. In both instances the special interests were at play.

It was Ludwig Von Mises who did the first comparative study of political systems and economic systems and it's still worthwhile reading a hundred years or later.

L.J.

"The Feds insisted that the banks grant mortgage money to people with little or no visible income, bad credit history and with no equity in the house they were buying. Too make matters worse, those people were sold balloon notes with low interest payments that suddenly skyrocketed."

From the finance point of view, this scheme was rational and objective as follows:

(Not my words folks, but an expert from the fed explaining to my class how this imploded:)

1) we know that some of these people are able to make a rent payment and a single car payment;

2) we can test their ability to make payments by structuring the loan to be an interest only loan;

3) if they are able to make the payments, we can renegotiate the loan at the end of the 'test" term;

4) we need to put in prepayment penalty so that the payers that we identify are good stay with us and don't get poached by some other lender, since its our risk that has enabled them to prove their credit.

5) in order to minimize the risk, we will then package these loans as invest ment vehicles and then pay different interest rates for different slices (tranches) of risk. Thus the buyer can dial n his level of return based on the percieved risk of any particular tranche.

6) of course, this all falls apart when there is no cash for renewing balloons, risk is not diversified as it is perfectly correlated between all choices...

And the rest, as they say, is ...

milo

Morning Milo,

"The Feds insisted that the banks grant mortgage money to people with little or no visible income, bad credit history and with no equity in the house they were buying. Too make matters worse, those people were sold balloon notes with low interest payments that suddenly skyrocketed."

Then the banks illegally took the questionable mortgages and bundled them into securities so they no longer own the note only the right to collect the payments. Now foreclosures become problematic. By the Uniform Commercial Codes one must own the note to repossess the real property.

It appearers that because the banks control our governments purse strings no Bankers will be held accountable and we shall foot the bill.

Brad

The mortgages were securitized, that is fact.

You are saying that the right of repossession of ownership interest is lost upon securitization of the mortgage?

Not sure that the repossession falls under the uniform commercial code. Not sure that the mortgages were issued under authority/purview of UCC.

I'se not a lawyer.

Just trying to share what little insight we have.

Not sure the bankers were accountable, as was pointed out, our geniuses in congress turned mortgage lending into an executed social policy of the federal govt under the command of mssr, barney frank etal as pointed out inprevious post.

Bankers may still be complicit, but the Govt created the policy...

milo

Hello Brad,

You have provided an excellent example as to why the Government, not private parties must be the single authority controling currency and it's distribution, but not where it interferes with ones right to invest and realize a profit from said investments. That would be going too far.

TMF

And the rest, as they say, is ...A Depression of global proportions? The largest economic collapse since money was invented? A study of human nature?

^{shit, I just sold my sailboat, bought a horizontal grinder and some engine rebuilding machinery.}

^{shit, I just sold my sailboat, bought a horizontal grinder and some engine rebuilding machinery.}

I'm sorry are you bragging or complaining? Scrap steel will soon be dirt cheap, as if 20¢ per pound is too much. I'm sure you can find something to do regardless of the economy.

Not bragging or complaining......just letting the wind out've my sails to stay afloat............

Touche

Hope that holds true for everybody out there in these crazy times...........hang tough fellas!

UV -- I think you have the right idea, if I read you correctly. ("I just sold my sailboat, bought a horizontal grinder and some engine rebuilding machinery.")

It may not be the panacea but those of us talking here are mostly folks who can build stuff.

If this cycle plays the way I suspect it will we'll see a lot of really low prices (deflation). Eventually we will see heavy inflation from all the money the Fed has "printed" as it finds its way into circulation and chases the reduced supply of goods and services due to fewer people working to produce stuff.

The question then becomes "where to put the money you still have before its value disappears". My answer is to invest what I don't need to buy food in high quality tools I can use to create the things other people will need to live and maybe things that the remaining rich (there will always be a few of them) cannot buy anywhere and need to have made for them.

Does this make any sense? Or is this just a crackpot idea from a confessed tool junkie?

Ed Weldon

If the inflation becomes real, then you will want to have assets.

If it is preceded by deflation, those assets will be a bargain.

The last thing that you want to do is buy assets at the peak of inflation. you want to already own assets then.

According to the Craftsman Corrolary of Roberts Rules of Order, "A motion to buy tools is always in order."

milo

Milo -- Your affirmation of my madness is a welcome sign.

I was not aware of the Craftsman Corollary. I think I shall make a sign displaying that wisdom to hang in my shop.

Perhaps I'll make 100 of those signs and take them to the next big swap meet.

Ed Weldon

I just made it up.

Have at it.

We'll prime this recovery at the shop level!

milo

I'll second that motion and raise you a screwdriver!!!

Hello Ed,

The second part is, if things get bad, to barter when you have removed the notes of Debt from your portfolio (currency is what ever it is currently worth). Do a little now and build as needed. Trade value for value not debt for value. Hard commodities like lumber, steel, firewood, food, a stock of lubricants, and a wide range of tools for repairing and building everything and barter. Information is another resource whether legal books or how to. Look for things that will be needed but not stocked, better is that they have multiple uses. Work on making a local networking system. Doers and those in the know.

Personally I have a wood shop, a metal shop (forge and welder) and a large assortment of tools. A flour mill, and some electronics repair supplies. Not because of the economics but I like to make and repair. Growing up in the 6th largest county of Oregon with less than 10,000 people in it by 1980, one becomes self sufficient.

Brad

There is a third alternative for power. It only works well in small customer bases, but it does well there. That's coops, sort of the successor to REA. I had service from a coop for years. The rates were lower than the big multi-state utility charged and, during storms, you could usually tell where the coop lines were by following the string of lights. You could think of as a form of socialist capitalism, I suppose. Every customer was a stockholder, with a vote. The customers voted on capital improvements, rates, service levels, etc.

Don't worry about the next 250 years, but ignore the pukes, and just set
out being the best that you can be for yourself. If your the best that you
can be for YOU, then you will be good for YOUR family, YOUR friends, and
YOUR close associates, and the rest of the world can learn to go take care
of them selves, or wither and die on their own vine.

There are many ideas out there, but there is one basic premise that most
have forgotten, Freedom to live and prosper is not free, this is NOT legislated,
This is not a right, but Freedom is a "PRIVILAGE" earned by those willing to
stand, fight, and possibly die, to live as free men. Freedom must be paid for
continuously, as you have mentioned , There are those world wide, who if
they think YOU will not stand and fight, and be willing to put your life on
the line for YOUR freedom, will immediately attempt to place you in bondage
and servitude to their ideology, be it a political or religious ideology.

There is no peaceful manor to achieve this privilege, as those who will place
you in bondage and servitude will use all powers of government, or physical
violence to achieve their enslavement of those who do not willingly subject
themselves to this bondage and servitude.
One man cannot do this alone, but look around you, open your eyes and ears,
and you shall soon find out that there are lots of us out here that are not
ready to roll over and play dead for anyone. everything has to start with
the numeral "ONE" and then there is two, and then twenty and so on.

Mans basic premise in life is to be free, to be reliant only on ones own ability
to survive, this is a dog eat dog world, so prepare your thinking for this task
ahead.

Have a great day.

Viking03A

Viking03A,

I'll not presume to tell you your business, but I need to object to your post. I am the descendant of men who were at Runnymede, who died at Plymouth Fort, who faced Tarleton's bayonets in the Revolution, and who walked steadily up Cemetery Ridge. For me (I speak for nobody else), freedom is not a privilege; it is my birthright, fully and forever paid.

Hello TP45 I was just rereading through the many posts and crossed yours again. I think that it was your birthright to be born in a nation where you, along with the rest of us, all have an opportunity to continue to live as a free society. However our ancestors, yours, mine and ours have not provided us with the eternal right of freedom, only opportunity to remain a free people. For that we must be willing to continue to defend with our smarts, money and our lives if necessary.

TMF

quote Toomuchfun: ".....we must be willing to continue to defend with our smarts, money and our lives if necessary"

I agree with you. But let's be realistic here. We all have plenty of "smarts" We know this in our hearts even though our friends and families, who endure our rants, might not always agree.

Our lives? C'mon guys..... If we let it get to that unlikely point then we are truly "damn fools". No sane person I know is really ready to believe we may face that kind of an end even though we may fantasize whenever we're in a gun shop or read about some home invasion robbery.

No, the real issue is MONEY. And last time I looked most of us were very unwilling to contribute any of our money toward the common defense except under extreme duress. (we commonly refer to such contributions as "taxes")

Now, have I got everyone mad at me? Good!! This is a healthy sign.

Ed Weldon

No, 2much, I'm very adamant about that. I never speak for others, and they may treat life anyway their lights reveal. But, I am a free man. I don't look to the government for that, or a set of laws, or an army. You might be able to put me in prison or even kill me, but nothing ever changes the fact that I am a free man. Nobody gives me that and nobody can take it from me.

After reading most of the foregoing, all I can think of is "We have met the enemy and it is us."

Every election day I wear a black T-shirt that says,"Never Underestimate The Power Of Stupid People In Large Groups!" There are lots of stupid people running around whose vote counts as much as yours and mine, and often they outnumber us. If you think about it, half of the people are below average intelligence, and that average isn't very high to start with these days. They believe in the free lunch and vote accordingly. They spend today more than they make and can't see tomorrow 's bills coming due. They look to the govt to help them with other people's tax money (Applies to big business as well). Maybe I should wear my T-shirt to some stock holder meetings!

It's reasonable to believe most systems can be flawed, and,
when this is compounded with human nature; terribly flawed.
Capitalism is the rule of the jungle, and pampers to greed etc.
Socialism is basically against human nature, and therefore fails.

To start again, first set the principles. To agree:
a) To work as a democracy; for the good of each, and all.
Therefore like minded groups need to be created, where it's
possible to work as a team, while respecting the individual.

b) Greed, with envy, needs to be circumvented by legislation.
Legal limits to be imposed on the amount of power and wealth
enjoyed by any one person or group. With totals cumulative.
e.g. those with governmental power, need to derive or have
little or no personal wealth, and vice versa. Excess is NOT good.

c) The minimum needed taxes to be based only on consumption.
As wealth is limited (b) so no taxes to be placed on income. Those
that "use" the most, contribute the most, indirectly to the tax purse.
This encourages success, the rich(er) having more, but not excess.

d) All life sustaining facilities to be "free," being supplied & paid
for by state taxes. Health care, medicines, water, pensions, etc.
This ensures life for the poor, elderly, needy, and infirm.

etc. etc. (add more as required.) That is:

We need to use the best of human nature to subjugate the worst.
To start again, with the education and agreement of the "cell"
(individuals) so as to form a humanitarian democracy of the people.
Not to pander to, or even condone, the natural human, but
destructive, sides found in ourselves. Greed, envy, power, etc.

Please do it soon!

jt.

I think this way too. I think powers have been robbed from the constitution, and given to the presidency. This needs correction. I think the constitution never anticipated the Fed, and its ability to create money from nothing, and not even be connected to the GNP. This needs correction. I think that ALL political action needs an ISO quality program, to ensure that all actions conform to a process, and will be flagged when they are outside that process.(including the actions of the president and administration) I think that ongoing mandatory political education of the masses needs to be implemented, so that the voters knowledge of political processes equals or exceeds that of the politicians. I think that politicians should be like eunuchs of old, and not be able to profit from their positions, nor to benefit from the conferring of favor. I think the Fed needs to be replaced by a better mechanism, that is controlled by the american people, not the foreign interests that now own it. I think that taxes should be either flat, or proportional to your annual income, and be that simple. I think that corporations should be required by law to share voting control with employees, and to maintain at least 60% of their manufacturing and retail operations in-country. "Real value products, made by us, for us, with our materials, our labour, and our capital" Mortgages should be required to be limited to simple interest only, and therefore a person can pay off a house in his/her own lifetime. This will ensure that the home will be the base of all his/her capital growth, and for their families in the future. This will re-focus the economy on the natural order of the nuclear family, and not on the corporate family. I think it should be ILLEGAL for the government to acquire debt, especially without a specific, planned repayment plan, that does not depend on the Fed, or increasing taxes, or whatever. The goverment can make money from operating its own services, including health care, but those services must compete in a free market. I think that the communist russia did not fail because it redistributed wealth to the people, (a very small portion), but because it purchased things which did not sustain it as an economy. (military hardware) and it spent even that foolishly (afghanistan) did not earn the support of the people. It did not invest in economically sensible things, nor creative enterprises. It invested in KGB, GRU, etc, and gave money, wealth, power, and influence to those who conformed, to its power ideals. This is not communism, and should never ever be construed as communism. Communism is a people power system of working together for the common good. Russia failed because their system failed to limit the power of its ruthless dictatorship that rose during wartime.. the same thing has happened here, including the capability for the American dictatorship the arbitrarily wage war to continue the game. This needs to stop... right effing now.

C

Our Govt. must acquire debt. If this were not the case we would not have the interstate highway system that was constructed to provide for our defense needs and has improved and expanded to help create the mass movement of people and commerce that we enjoy today. However; And it has been paid for by everyone who has traveled it, paid for with their tax dollars, for everything that is taxed on or for vehicles of every kind. This is an example of good work by Govt.

The Federal Reserve System is holding this nation hostage. All paper money should belong to the government, therefore the misuse of it becomes a Federal Crime. Coinage however has real value and should remain the property of its owners.

The Govt. will permit the population to enjoy reasonable and liberal use of said paper, or it gets no taxes in return. Coins should be free from taxation. Of course we should not have to carry around all of these coins, they are too heavy, but they are accountable, and their ownership can be transferred just the way we do business today. If we need to borrow money, we could borrow the paper from the Govt. What a novel idea, don't you think!

TMF

Read "The Divine Right of Capital: Dethroning the Corporate Aristocracy" by Marjorie Kelly

Lots of us are angry. I think credit card rates are outrageous!

You must be pretty young. It was the late 70s or 80s that home mortgages were up to 19%. Credit cards were higher yet. Compared to that, rates today are a give-away.

I remember that time. It made more sense for companies to lay everybody off and put their money into high interest savings. Many did.

One funny event took place when a geological exploration company over-extended itself by borrowing at the high rate and went bankrupt overnight. Nobody offered to mention the exploration crew that was left stranded on Prince William Island in the Canadian Arctic cos the company aeroplane was impounded. Things got a little touchy when the mosquitoe repellant ran out.

Good Evening Anomous hero!

I finally calmed down the crowd, you know the mob of folks that don't see the value in having a central controling power like the Army Core of Engineers be made responsible for things that, if failed could result in a catastrophic loss of life. It is difficult to hold stock holders responsible for the failures that can be the result of piss pore managment by over paid executives whos primary motives include becoming even more over paid.

I moved out to the Greater Lake Tahoe Basin back in 1977, It was just a couple years after the trumpted up gasoline shortage had brought the entire State of Florida to stand still in gross production and construction. Florida was one of those states that were in a certified depression.

I lived in the Tahoe Basin for 10 years, made a fortune working and out foxing the tax collector, manuvering around the rules of the two regional planning agencies and the building depts. Had a lot of fun, spending all the money, chasing beautiful women and racing cars in the High Desert. The parties started when I arrived at the local Gin Mill on Friday afternoon and ended late Sunday evening for those who just could not go any longer. Sometimes the party would would last a week and two week ends.

You were very correct about the 19% interest rates for mortgages. No fewer than 6 different real estate properties were offered to me for no money down, just take over the payments on the mortgage, and by the way the balloon is due in just a couple of months. These homes were valued at that time a prices ranging from about $400,000 to $900,000 and were on canals with direct access to the beautiful Lake Tahoe. It was because of the runaway interest rates that housing values shot up so rapidly. Those with credit were looking to get their little piece of heaven while they could still afford it.

On the other side of the closing table, the seller was looking to capitalize on the exploding real estate market. The mortgage lenders had a clue! The sellers were willing to hold hundreds of thousands in 2nd mortgages. Unfortunately, when these over spending, questionably qualified buyers defaulted, the seller/2nd mortgage holder either had to assume the mortgage or lose their investment. Many lost it all. Reganomics turned things back around. Mortgages became more reasonable, and in the end, the threat of a star wars defense system that the Soviet Union who was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy conceded the cold war.

That was good work by Govt. they don't always get it wrong, Can you imagin us hiring the Hessians to fight our wars and defend our daily life.

TMF

corps of engineers sure did a great job on those leveees in N'orlins.

milo

Hi Milo,

We have come a long way since the Govt. of Rome provided "public baths, sewers, and water, and became the best city in the known world to live in as the result of the Govt. designed, constructed and maintained very public utilities. I am reasonably confident in being correct when I say that if they had electricity and it was as necessary for a comfortable life in that time period as it is today, that also would have been designed, constructed and maintained by the "Central Govt. of the time.

Your quite correct about the N.O incident, but place the responsibility where it belongs. The Legislature only allocated funds to protect against a class 3 hurricane, some areas were improved. However the design Engineers never expected Lake Ponchatrain to be coming through the back door via canals created long after the original dike was constructed. I doubt very seriously whether the State of "Lousiana" or the City of New Orleans contributed much to their own protection. Consider how old the primary pumps are. The tax payers through out the remainder of this nation are not responsible for wipeing their ass. The city has been a dangerous place to reside for many years, and was clearly over populated. It is not the responsibility of the Federal Govt. to reduce the exposure for harm that may happen to over populated gettos. It is the responsibility of the State and the City to limit this by passing ordinances to limit the number of residences per square "whatever". When fools remain in harms way, they will eventually be harmed, you can bank on that! It is not the fault of the Army Corps of Engineers that fools sat around stealing the public funds, promoting over population, and waited for the inevitable event to come calling.

There's plenty of responsibility to go around. But The Army Corps of engineers had design and maintenance responsibility for the levees specifically. The Levees failed.

THE FAILURE OF ENGINEERS TO ADEQUATELY PERFORM ENGINEERING IS A RESPOBNSIBILITY RELEVANT TO ALL OF US HERE ON CR$ AS PROFESSIONALS as well as germane to this thread.

"The Army Corps of Engineers, for adopting safety standards that were "too close to the margin" to protect human life. It also called for an urgent reexamination of the entire levee system, saying there are no assurances that the miles of concrete "I-walls" in New Orleans will hold up against even a moderate hurricane."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/24/AR2006032401819.html

They had the responsibility.

They failed.

Pretty flippin simple.

No need to bring ghettos, ordnances or ass wiping into it- just

" who was responsible?

Did it work?

If not why not.

And if not, why should we trust them with our utilities or anything else?

Its a poor model, tmf. A very poor model. When govt flunkies fail, nothing happens except people die.

Don't overcomplicate this engineering/business competence issue with social concerns.

its really pretty clear.

milo

PS: By the way even the drugged out members of Led Zepplin understood the importance of the levees:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-AanPHMbC4

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/l/led+zeppelin/when+the+levee+breaks_20082208.html

Again, the engineer's dilemma: With my limited resources do I provide the perfect solution to 80% of the problem or an imperfect solution to the entire problem?

To design something that costs more to build than anyone can pay is, in essence, to have designed nothing at all because that which was designed will have no substance.

Ed Weldon

I read all of that and take a little exception when you state that the ACE must be expected perform with out funding to do so after all this was not war time, until the hurricanes came calling. Money that would have been better spent making the improvements went to paying unwed mothers to continue production, and so on. There are only so many tax dollars to go around, and then we print some to take care of those who will not or cannot live responsibly. Likely there was enough money spent on drugs and other contraband by the getto dwellers to have paid for their own protection. Simply put, if Congress does not fund it it dies on the vine.

TMF

You make my point exactly. Govt is a poor provider of goods and services.

Markets are far more efficient.

res ipsa loquitor- The thing itself speaks.

Case closed.

milo

Remember Rome, they spoke latin too, had water, sewer, public baths, entertainment etc. all provided by NERO the "Guvena". with the Taxes his henchmen collected.

Touche!

TMF

Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Ave, Anatis ex minor mare!

Anguis conscripti? Asino conscripti? Emptor conscripti?

Malum buculus non frangitur.

Aliena nobis, nostra plus aliis placent.

Alea iacta est.

De mortuis nil nisi bonum.

milo

Milo -- Will you please provide an english translation for us dumb mechanical engineers who took Spanish in high school just so we could have 2 years of a language to get into engineering school. (Why I don't know; all the brainiacs took German or Latin. In 40 years of an engineering career I never once had to read anything technical written in German. But that was the 1950's when we were still greatly impressed with German scientific achievements). Although I must admit at this late stage in my life, when I'm beginning to recognize a runon sentence, a certain regret over my total illiteracy in Latin.

Ed Weldon

Sure Ed.

The joy of Latin was we didn't have to speak it. I took German and I sound like a badger choking on a pretzel when i try to speak it. But given time I can puzzle through most technical stuff.

Duckinthe pond asked Who will guard the guardians? and showed us a dead bull (market).

My reply was

Ave, Anatis ex minor mare!

Greetings, duck of the minor sea.

Anguis conscripti? Asino conscripti? Emptor conscripti?

The snakes enrolled? The asses enrolled? The buyers enrolled? (actually that might be the buyer enrolled, now that I think of it.) In other words cheaters (snakes = vipers) and Stupid buyers (asses = buyers) enrolled was how I could say 'cheats and asses collectively.'

Malum buculus non frangitur.

A bad bull never breaks.

Aliena nobis, nostra plus aliis placent.

Other's things are more pleasing to us, and ours to others. (we're all greedy by our nature)

Alea iacta est.

The die is cast.

De mortuis nil nisi bonum.

Let nothing but good be said of the dead.

Mrs Ponte would be so proud!

milo

Ave, imperator ferrum magnus (greetings, great lord of steel)

Non est ad astra mollis e terris via (the trip from the earth to the stars is not an easy one)

Modus omnibus in rebus (???must be done in moderation)

Ipsa scientia potestas est (and only when knowledge itself is power)

Mrs Macchiavelli (had great big......old school)

milo

Latin is a language,
Dead as Dead Can Be,
First it Killed the Romans,
Now It's Killing Me.

All are dead who spoke it.
All are dead who wrote it.
All are dead who learned it,
Lucky dead, they've earned it.

"those who will not or cannot live responsibly"

There seem to be growing numbers of this type in our populations. There was a time in the history of Humankind when they were early victims of darwinian realities. They would typically be eaten by some wild animal before they reached reproductive age. Very effective in protecting the gene pool. Civilization has greatly reduced that particular weeding process.

One of the methods we have contrived to that end is the great economic concept of "buy now, pay later". Another is helmet laws.

Ed Weldon

My question about New Orleans is once the pumped it dry why did they spend huge amounts of money wastefully to have the same problem. Just my 2 Cents but I would have cleaned up, Sank concrete pillars that can be lengthened, make concrete barges to float between them and float the city as a modern version of Venice. Build the levy into a break water and fill it up. Done right a money maker, Done by the Uncle Sam on a world bank leash, a fiasco.

Brad

What you propose only makes sense in the real world....AND a similar idea was proposed by an Australian engineering company that builds ports...and promptly ignored for whatever reasons.

If hindsight is 20/20 what is foresight?...especially in the event of polar and Greenland ice cap meltoff.

Back in the early 70's I worked in the Arctic for a three year stretch. Cold, crisp, clear...a frozen world that thawed out by the end of July. I returned a couple of years ago...a three day stopover....hazy, fog, muddy, early June, swarms of mosquitoes. In my mind the impossible was happening. New Orleans came to mind.

Sad but true, So we now have Global warming marketing social lies in the name of science. Follow the money because the data don't track.

I had the float the city idea when it sank from PPP. But I'm not in charge and they would not want me.

I know what to do with the melting Arctic but it would work and that would be an issue

Brad

Lots of us are angry. I think credit card rates are outrageous!

Who forced you to buy something you didn't have the cash in your pocket to pay for?

Travis

First, recognise that many public company executives and financial 'experts' are ultra super greedy, and will always put their financial gain ahead of anything else. These are the people who caused communism to gain ground.

Second, realize that a share of stock is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.

Third, really regulate public stock companies so that even the ultra super greedy CEOs have to work for the stock holders interest, not their own. One such regulation would require the highest paid person of a public company not be paid more than 40 times the salary of the lowest paid person in that company. Another regulation would be no public company employee would be paid more than six months salary severance pay. There should be lots of restrictions on Perks and bonuses for public company employees.

Very secure savings and investments are needed for those people who are willing to put away money for their retirement or future projects, for pension funds and endowment funds. The ultra super greedy can run private companies as they wish, but when they work for a public stock company, they must work for the interest of the stock holder.

No public company needs to own a private jet aircraft.

I find the omission of unionized UAW workers unable to make reasonable concessions in exchange for government bailout moneys an omission in your list of greedy people.

I have yet to meet a union official; that is willing to sacrifice a single dues paying member to save the entire company worth of jobs. Saw this in steel before UAW. How many union steel worker jobs were saved?

none.

milo

Looks like the "Guest" hit on a hotbed of dissidense and heated discussion.

If it makes me any more qualified I read Atlas Shrugged when it was on the best seller list and just before The Fountainhead was published.

#12 comments by Jaguar indicate the age old fact that knowing what happened doesn't change the consequences, to paraphrase someone; Not to learn from history will cause you to repeat it.

One of our problems is fighting unproductive wars, by unproductive I mean we don't gain any real estate. We waste the lives of our young people and our hard earned money trying to manage the other governments of the world. The last real knock down drag out fight we had to save our form of government was the second world war. We had the nutcase over in Germany that was bound and determined to have the world function as he saw fit and the Japs who had shown some desires to gain some property on their side of the world. Of course threatning to shut off the oil supply to the Japanese may have caused some consternation on their part and precipitated a little event known as Pearl Harbor.

At any rate, since that time some of the things that have traspired are;

The government developed a penchant for printing currency with the other world currencies frozen to a standard. I think 360 yen to the dollar was the number we were using at the time. The net effect of this was the rest of the world was paying our bills. That worked pretty good until someone wised up at which point the dollar began to float.

The arab world decided that nationalizing the oil industry might be a good thing. That seemed to work pretty well for them. The oil embargo probably wasn't the best idea they ever had because now they are a perceived threat to most of the advanced nations.

Japanese junk became the new world standard. The idea that they could copy anything but couldn't be innovative kind of slid by the wayside.

Corperate America found that hugh instant profits could be developed by hostile mergers. I seem to remember something about raping retirement funds and such was considered "good business".

With the advent of the computer Corperate America began idolizing folks like Jack Welch (Neutron Jack) who fostered the attitude there will be no loyaties, upward or downward, and we are going to make tons of money without making a product.

Recently oil was worth 147 dollars a barrel. Am I paranoid or do I really beleive that the market is being manipulated on a daily basis. We already know that programmed trading can totally upset the market. I don't imagine you would have to be too smart to figure out how to tumble the system.

Somehow we decided that it was okay to have some stumblebum fail as a CEO and still be rewarded with hugh salaries and golden parachutes. In fact we filled up board rooms with them and their flunkies. Of course when we think of the great unwashed, the union guys, we think of their taking a stand to hold onto what they fought to get not in line with our mentality when we think of the turkeys in the boardroom and no I am not union and haven't been since the early sixties.

So basically we are the enemy.