What to do? but practical and not lethal ideas only please.

Otha,

I gotta take exception to "Japanese junk". Take a long look at what Mitsubishi is doing in energy; we better hope we'll be able to copy some of their work.

I should have clarified, after the war all things japanese were truly junk. I am well aware of their progress and have worked directly with them, they have their act together in most areas.

Yep, I remember when cheap 35mm camera bodies were stamped out of old pop cans. That was a long time ago. Now it's like the old ex-slave that Shelby Foote told about in The Civil War. He saw his former owner in poverty and despair and said, "Bottom rail on the top now, massa".

I hate to say it, but I think this democracy is on the downhill slide.A democracy can survive only until the majority of voters figure out that they can vote themselves great fortune from the public coffers.They will always vote for the ones that promise them the most.Then the democracy will collapse from monetary mismanagement and malfeasance. The reason real estate market collapsed was:Interest rates too high, making payments impossible,driving owners into foreclosure. The answer:Force the banks to lower the rates to allow buyers to make their payments.The banks would make less money, that's true, but they would not go broke, nor would the taxpayer. The banks are greedy, and before they would lower the rates,they would rather see the whole country collapse trying to bail them out. They were stupid enough to let themselves be forced into making unsound loans with no or very minimal cash up front,and now they come crying to the taxpayer to bail them out. Congratulations ACORN! See what you have done?

You are right democracy fails here because it is a form of socialism. The Constitution was based on Sovereign Nation states in joiner of a Republic Union.

The writing was on the wall when we had our civil war. So when we let the Federal (foreign) banks steal control of our money system, then the Buck Act was passed the Democracy was in charge.

The 1920s and before the US Army defined Democracy as mobocracy a form of socialism.

As Congressional US citizens you traded your rights for privileges. If you don't believe me ask your local Judge where he gets his authority from and he will state the 14th Amendment. (I've got mine stating it on the record, now I have the transcripts.) Not Article 3 of the Constitution in the powers of the Judicial Branch. The 14th Amendment falls under Article 4 courts that are under Congressional jurisdiction.

Don't Take my word for it do your own research, just don't do anything stupid when you realize it's true.

Guest wrote: "A democracy can survive only until the majority of voters figure out that they can vote themselves great fortune from the public coffers."

Guest appears to be a knowledgeable student of history for he has identified the one underlying factor in the demise of many civilizations that preceded us.

Most all prior civilizations of any substance have had what appears to be a 200 year life cycle. If that be more a rule than a coincidence, then America is indeed on borrowed time.

What a crying shame.

I mean it!

L.J.

Here is more coal for the fire! $2 trillion of emergency loans from U.S. taxpayers. Say what! http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=apx7XNLnZZlc&refer=home

Brad

Great link brad.

milo

Wow!

I haven't experienced as much Libertarian kinship as when I helped found the New York Libertarian party in the 60's!

Leonard Peikoff is Ayn Rand's most visible surviving spokesperson. A college professor of philosophy, he continues to operate on her belief that engineers are more grounded in reality than Liberal Art students. The life or death consequences of the discipline does not allow for anything less.

Given the amount of agreement I see expressed here, both Rand and Peikoff appear to be right about our predispositions.

It's unfortunate that she was so severe a personality. Her core principles might have gained more acceptance. It's unfortunate too that Alan Greenspan should have become a party to the debacle we are seeing. Some, Bill Moyers among them, are using Greenspan as a misguided excuse to attack Rands credo on selfishness.

L.J.

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom/?refer=email

read it and weep.............

Fascinating read. I actually got a layman's good handle on what happened to cause the crash.

The lesson to be learned: This behavior is in the genetics of all of us. If any future government ever decides to allow anything like this thieving ponzi game to grow again in the name of "free market capitalism" we better all be ready to scream loud and long and put the bastards where they belong.

Ed Weldon

I actually got a layman's good handle on what happened to cause the crash.

That, in itself, is worth the read. The blatantcy of it all is mind numbing. No checks or balances and no self regulation or otherwise any controls spells catastrophe.

And yet this vast amount of lost money could easily have been in the venture capital market creating products and jobs.

The simple question I ask is how the hell can a guy making $14 k/yr get a mortgage for a $750k home!!! ....and yet my neighbour who's run a succesfull business for 20 yrs can't get a short term loan without providing his personal assets as a security. He needs a copy machine.....$2k.

What a great response to this thread?.I belong to largest democracy in the world that is India. It has been challenging for us to sustain the system with the political condition just as you all are facing in U.S.Similar problems like availability of the power,fuel,employment etc. and over and above that hostile neighbour.We have just learnt to live in any worst conditions.Impact of the downturn in U.S had also affected us badly,many people who lost lot of money in stocks and have committed suicides, many have lost their jobs, many have lost their homes etc.

Finally I feel that systems have to change and it is the people who have real power in democracy can only change the systems.

We need to have successful business people in the government leadership and keep the lawyers/politicians as clerks to write the laws as requested by them. Keep in mind that there is no such thing as a poor politician. They are very good at taking care of themselves and their fraternity brothers and sisters.

The Democrates started all this mess during the Clinton era and now we expect them to get us back on the path to prosperity. Sad commentary about the intelligence of the American voter.

All the people that voted for Obama are going to be sadly disappointed that the gravy train doesn't exist.

Actually .......Clinton tried to introduce checks and measures which were immediately repealed by the current administration upon taking office. He also left a surplus in the kitty totalling 6 trillion $. All gone away now. Squandered, one might add, by those whose personal agendas had little to do with intelligence (on any level).

Seasoned Foam Peddler: "All the people that voted for Obama are going to be sadly disappointed that the gravy train doesn't exist."

We can not afford to have him loose! Still, it is inevitable that his Messiah like adulation will suffer. It is part of the nature of True Believers to be fanatical and hero worship one minute and abandon their Messiah at the first sign of weakness. There will come a time when slick oratory will not be enough to sustain him. Things could get ugly for him and us, should that happen.

Eric Hoffer wrote about this 50 years ago and the book is still a worthwhile read for those trying to understand the psychology of mass movements. ("The True Believer")

Obama has bitten off more than any President and has created expectations inconsistent with the facts and his abilities.

They say that the Presidency makes presidents out of unlikely men and that the responsibility brings with it a seasoning. While it's hard to argue that assertion after 8 years of Bush, I can't afford to hope for anything less than success for this young kid.

L.J.

Politicians are just necessary parasites on a human society. The amount they eat to sustain themselves is tiny compared to the damage and the losses they can produce through their failures.

In the years just past the parasite learned that it could go "open loop" and do whatever it wanted simply by using the nation's credit rating to buy voter support. That the governmental activity was based on ideology rather than logic served to magnify the inevitable failures.

Perhaps adherence to ideology had its place in times like the Dark Ages when there was little else for populations to grasp onto. But in a modern rapidly changing world ideology has serious limits because such structures tend to look inward and are inherently slow to adapt.

So we saw things like the ideological principle of spreading democracy fail in the Middle East due to a lack understanding of the evolving cultures there by the USA (looking inward).

Most importantly the ideology of free market capitalism trumped all the signs of trouble as the rapid evolution of computer technology allowed the complex ponzi schemes of the Wall Street investment bankers to spiral out of control in spite of the logic that said something is very wrong here. (slow to adapt)

Ideology has its place in insuring continuity of important ideas that would otherwise be lost in the sands of time and a framework for individual behavior and beliefs that civilization and its legal and scientific structures are unable to practically provide. But as a basis for the governing of nations history has shown it to be a questionable strategy at best.

Ed Weldon

"Free market capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth. Socialism is the equal distribution of poverty".

I can't take credit for the quote, but it says it all to me.

What a joke. This righteous indignation of the "taxpayer" makes me laugh.

The federal government has given, lent or otherwise promised 3 trillion dollars to banks or financial institutions. Yet our taxes haven't gone up.

Think about that.

Where are they getting the money? They are borrowing it. So how exactly are "we the poor taxpayer" bailing out the "wall street fat cats"?

We are just as bad as the bankers, we want to keep all the money we make, but we also want roads, safe food, safe planes, help during disasters, electricity, water that doesn't kill us, sewage systems, garbage removal, protection from criminals, protection from hostile foreign countries, firefighters, etc. etc.

So I say again, what a joke. What a joke we are. We want everything, and want to pay for nothing.

Chris,

Your absolutely correct regarding inflation, and I am currently investing gold for that very reason. However, the majority of the people complaining don't know about that. In fact, they aren't calling for the government to stop minting money, they want their own bailout.

I guess I'm just trying to say that if a person complains about the bailout, and then in the same breath complains about taxes, they don't really understand whats going on.

But again, your statement above is exactly correct. Ultimately we will be footing the bill with higher prices. I'm giving you a good answer for nailing it.

Roger

Hello Chris,

You are absolutely right on regarding inflation, However when the masses have nothing with which to pay, that is in dollars, of course, we have deflation, otherwise ending in depression and this is the countering effect of inflation. When your brand new, $12,000 compact, fuel efficient, 4 cyl car, only brings offers of $6,000 at auction, you as the Mfg. must find a way to satisfy your self and your employees with a hell of a lot less than your $12,000 asking price or go out of business and starve the whole lot of you!

The real term of median income, or median home values really only refers to those who have income or homes to begin with. I suggest to you that the many who are not counted in those catagories, are renters, homeless or unemployed, and have basic needs just the same. The silent majority will ultimately continue to pay for their silence, through the loss of value of their homes, and increased cost of living.

I am a die hard profiteer, but I see the need for Govt. Control of what we now see as the costs, of the basics of life here in this nation. The masses simply cannot survive without electricity, heating oil, transportation, water, sewage disposal, and so on.

The very idea that we have a Central Bank that is owned and managed by profiteers is down right silly. The quickest way to break this bad habit is to barter, leaving out the banker altogether, and the other non profit called the IRS.

These are difficult times for many and they will certainly get worse, and I believe that we need to restructure the above two Corporations, through a gradual transition to eliminating them both and replacing them with Govt. Control, and hate to even think that I have said this but in the end we will be eaten alive by the greedy, or die before they can eat us all.

TMF

Oversight mabye, control...absolutely not. If I understand you correctly you want to entrust an additional 30 to 40 percent of our economy to the same people who cannot maintain a balanced budget while operating 25 percent??? If the government had done its job in the first place the situation wouldn't be as bad as it currently is.

Thanks Milo. I see you have the same reservations I do. The difference being you were more detailed and eloquent than I.

It looks like we were typing about the same time.

I'll connect off line, I see you're in Ohio too.

milo

I can only wish that children like yours were working in wall street, "I read that 9 page link, by the way". Unfortunately, I am like a person with one foot on a banana peal and the other on the edge of an untied raft. It's for certain that I will get wet, however I really don't want to see, riot and revolution over take this nation. And; I hate the thought of relinquishing any more control to Big Daddy. I see how sorry the performance has been.

However; if we don't do something to head off the impending crisis and taking the steps to prevent it again happining, the fire ants will get us all.

Demanding a measure of prevention is much better than continuing to have to swallow the bitter pill.

TMF

Well Atlas Shrugged was actually written prior to 1957, and published later. Therefore, by reason Ayn's comprehension of our Govt. system relates to that era, after WW11 and the Korean Conflict. It was demonstrated that the American industrial powers could make huge changes and convert from commodity goods to war materials, and back again, and continue to make fortunes doing so. Power brokers in congress were making fortunes off campus selling influence and the concept that the private sector was far more into management of the critical matters than Govt.. Since then many things have changed. Emron, insider trading, unbelievable salaries being paid to CEO's improved by extravagant stock options and bonuses paid for reducing the workforce beyond the good advice of those in the know, The black out in the greater North East that lasted for days all as the result of the poor decision making of a single moron. and of course this latest bundle of crises that will impact the quiet majoriety the most. The under class, those below the median income level will suffer the most, as a little further down gets them a lot closer to bankruptcy.

Permitting monopolistic powers to certain utilities such as the electrical producers so that they could attract private funding to start up and operate them at a reasonable profit was great for a while but it is just another idea that has out lived its usefulness.

Times change and we must change with the times or pay an ugly price for not having done so.

As for your questioning my loyalty to capitalism, It would really be nice to still have a little of that opportunity left after paying for enough gasoline to last a month and only receiving enough to last a week. And after paying the unreasonably high utility bills, to still have a little left over so that my wife could go out to lunch sometines with out feeling guilty from not brown bagging it again.

Capitalism works only as long as their is enough capital to go around. Think about it!

TMF

Yes Milo, very well put.

Chris

When the prices of commodities and service infrastructure fall then we have deflation. What we have today is a new technology that Wall Street invented. It's called inventing and manipulating the sub-prime...ie....breaking up the prime lending rate into non-existant parts and creating a false value by consistently shorting it on the market. As one collapsed it was replaced by another which in turn was sold ad infinitum.

The sad thing was that all the head ceo fat cats didn't have a clue what they were doing. The greedy invented ponzi schemes to grab as much as possible...et voila....le fin.

Yes, but if you had one trillion dollars out there and then you put 5 more trillion out there, eventually you get inflation. It may not be occurring yet, but you can count on it.

Not really and not the way these loans are structured. A lot of the money loaned will make money. Much of it already has. The question is whether the big three deserve any of it as no doubt there will never be a payback as long as some guy who knows how to use a screwdriver gets to make $30 an hour working for them. Give me a break!

First of all, who cares about the big three. They are asking for 50 billion. The banks have been lent or otherwise given 3 Trillion up to now. In order to pass the 750 billion dollar bank bailout, 150 billion dollars worth of pork was added by the Senate. So basically you're worried about an amount that is 1.5% of what they have already spent. It's a bit of a joke to get all financially conservative all of a sudden. Of course, banks vote Republican, whereas car companies unions vote Democratic, so one begins to see why Republicans were cool with passing a 750 billion dollar bailout of securities but not ok with a 50 billion bailout of car companies.

As for inflation, it's coming. In the history of mankind, when a nation prints more money, or otherwise devalues its currency, inflation ensues. Not immediately, but within a few years. I understand that you believe the conditions with which this money has been lent will prevent such a disaster, but unfortunately, from what I've read and researched, it won't, because there were in fact no conditions it turns out. Go ahead, look into it.

The government right now is terrified of deflation, and so its doing what it always does, lowering interest rates, lending money to any bank that will take it, gauranteeing all sorts of derivatives, buying companies that might fail, and otherwise overreacting in such a way that will lead to high inflation in the future.

If I understand you correctly and that the context of who deserves bailing out is dependant on voter demographics then I'd venture to say the US is in deeper trouble than one would otherwise imagine.

Personally, I don't believe that....or rather...I don't want to believe that. I also don't believe that those who played the sub-prime game knew what they were doing...or, for that matter, those who, in the purported interests of their shareholders decided to abandon the home field. Short term profit does not equal long term gain.......especially when it impacts the skilled trades and education...just to mention a few disciplines.

Besides, the rising price of fuel had begun to impact on inflation anyway. I blame the becurlered housewives with their 2.5 children driving around in V8 SUV's while grocery shopping.

I remember thinking a couple of years ago how weird it was that people who made half what I made had much better stuff than I did (flat screen t.v.'s, houses, brand new cars etc.). At the time it didn't occur to me that they we doing it with credit, I just thought I was bad with money. As it turns out I'm good with money.

Hi Duck!

Where I live, many folks have SUV's, and smaller compact cars or even a pickup when the Father works in the construction industry. And I see lots of Ladies with SUV's with numerous children being transportated to school and other places. There is no public transportation in most of Florida. This state is surrounded by aqua fina, and has more lakes than Colorado has mountains. These folks often have boats or 4 wheelers, or motor cycles and other things that are trailered and have a darned good reason to be doing this with the SUV. Because not everyone can afford a stable full of compacts as well as utility vehicles for special needs, the SUV does a good job of filling this needs with out breaking the bank. Yes they are not fuel efficient, however when we consider the cost of maintenance, insurance, licensing and the fact the occupants of the SUV are much better protected from injury in case some stupid kid looses control of his speedy little compact and tries to end their lives or worse cripple them for life, the SUV comes away as an uncontested winner in my book.

I have owned several different companies over the years, and hired and discharged many employees. I have also worked as a union employed craftsman and as a non union craftsman. Unions can be Good for their rank and file and others in the same craft by negotiating wages and benefits. But they can also harm the system over all when they demand and get too much more than the the value of what they produce will bare. This is what has happened in the Auto Industry. And their success has trickled down and spread around to other industries and crafts. The problem is an imbalance in the funds that are paid to those not represented by organized labor vs those who are.

I found it much easier to offer competitive bids for work when the playing field was leveled by the obligation to match the prevailing wage scale. At least I knew that my bid would not be under cut by some one paying wet backs under scale to do the same work.

I guess if one really looks hard enough one can find good and bad in just about every situation.

Are you a Pintail duck? I usually try to pin the tail on some "Donkey". No offense intended TP45!

TMF

One disturbing thought that keeps popping up in the back of my mind is an image of Nikita Krushev, shoe in hand banging on the desk declaring that they would bury us and in essence would not fire a shot. He felt that the task would fall to our working class.

I wonder if this whole thing might have influences other than all the stated problems, any of which could be the problem.

I just thought a little conspiracy theory ought to get this pot boiling a little more furiously.

War & Corruption make peoples and nations poor. There is blatant corruption like a bribe, and corruption of guiding principles. So then from where we are now in the US, or West, in fact the Obama Biden agenda I read is pretty good as far as a practical set of tactics amounting to a strategy. Since I've worked in Aviation Services, and Motion Pictures as careers, and am back to construction when I heard Alan Greenspan say I needed to be retrained, I decided to become an economist. So now I am recommending Whole Life Insurance Policies awarded to citizens at birth that are paid for by the government till the age of majority. (My bow to Adam Smith and the invisible hand.) I am also saying as did Dick Gephardt that though a State or National minimum wage is needed, in this era, an International Minimum Wage is really needed. Enforcement of Intellectual Property Rights internationally would also help. Chinese and Russian theft of music movies games and machine designs etc. has damaged the US economy. (of course free classified ad sites like Craigslist haven't helped the newspapers, but there are details and stockholder expectations that skew all that in a transformational area.) A nation does need to have a strong domestic economy and not put itself in the position of depending on others for its economic well being. Shipping all the manufacturing jobs overseas to take advantage of low labor costs left the US with Construction to do, since it is site specific. It was rational for poor people to pay the same in rent for faux ownership, and financial wizards took advantage of the window of opportunity. Unfortunately we of the US and connected economies like Britain are holding a bluff poker hand now. Too bad they didn't invest in R&D and Transformational products. Of course they knew that if they actually invented and made something the Chinese would just copy it and make a cheaper version and sell it at Wal Mart. So they weren't entirely irrational either.

P.S. Ayn Rand wrote a nice parable the Fountain Head, but as far as I'm concerned William James is the great American Philosopher, (Pragmatism) wonderful description of Democracy as a very delicate thing in his book of Harvard Lectures. This thread reminds me that I had in the past suggested a Political Science Section for CR4, and it is interesting that the threads of this sort are not yanked.

If we really want to be pessimistic; just maybe...

This is the way it's meant to be. From the galaxy units to
the viruses, the major players are programmed, in their nature,
to do their own instinctively survivalist ways; leaving a load
of collateral damage to some how survive. Called evolution.

Are all the pathetic attempts, called humanist, socialist, or plain
do-gooders, simply the reactions or retaliations of the losers?

Is it stupid that we dream of making any meaningful change(s)?
At all? By definition the ones in charge are more powerful, scheming,
and self fulfilling. To beat (or join) them, do we need to be them?

What do revolutions tell us? That there is no self-governing control?
That we are a self-serving mass; driven by instinct and desire in order
to achieve our own satisfactions? When, yet again, those who are the
strongest, meanest, whatever, rise to the top and mislead the ALL again.

Only when we can say, "You have it. Your need is greater than mine."
When we admit to have sufficient for our needs, so as to not care, that
someone else has twice as much more. Only when this is reciprocated;
by everyone, can we ever hope to embrace the world. i.e. Grow up.

Those that have gone to sleep, please, you can all go home now.
Merry Christmas and a prosperous New year to you all on CR4.

jt

Let's have another drink, it helps the talking.....

Pour some cement in a shallow patch of sea, and create your own country. Use eco friendly power methods, de-salination plant which is powered by your eco plant, and if no-body notices you, you could always build a missile base, like cuba did in the 70s.

I was having a conversation with a buddy here at lunch, and he was describing that he was an hourly employee, and enjoying the benefits of the seasonal overtime hours.. and I said, "too bad the government (canada) takes half of the overtime...

so, my suggestion is to eliminate ALL taxes on overtime, as a stimulant to the economy, business, and employees, in one stroke, and won't cost the government any capital investment.

chris