What is "time"

One definition could be- "Time is a multiplier of energy." 1/man hr= 1 unit of work. 2 men could complete the same amount of work in half the time, respectively.

......"Time is a multiplier of energy." 1/man hr= 1 unit of work. 2 men could complete the same amount of work in half the time, respectively.

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I like this one. I worked on a contract that was conrolled by a 'critical path' management fetish.

The contractor installing the toilet was allowed 20 man-hours. With one hour to go to stay on schedule, he was to to find 20 plumbers (finding 1 is a problem) all to work together the small cubicle.

Time remains and does not dissappear just because one can not measure it. If is it no so then between two big bangs there is no time gap as it will need matter to bring in time. Color of light emitted from stars is suppoed to be its velocity of expansion and that has time for each star in itself. What if the entire world is one unit in motion? Then you will say there is no velocity or space or time because you see one ball? I agree that there may be problem in measurement but fundamental unit time must remain associated with nothing as well. Perhaps there is nothing like nothing. Things are there in one form or the other so time remains for ever. No kind of Physics can make the universe to dissappear even though some fellows might have assumed it appearing from nothing.

If you want to rule out time then I challenge if you can make the universe to disappear by any means, whatever the theory may be except for the theory of magic dissappearance of the universe without any PHYSICS law or by statistical quantum mechanical collapse of existance of matter or disintegration of matter which I reserve as mine fully 100%.

Newton tried pretty hard to offer a definition of time. Time is what defines speed in terms of distance. Distance is what defines time in terms of speed. These terms are all constructs, just like all other words. Do we have it all wrong re time? Certainly no more than we have it all wrong regarding space.

Of course, the reasoning seems circular, but that is the case with virtually all definitions, is it not? Einstein changed our understanding of time, but not without changing our understanding of many other things, as well. It's all relative.

Perhaps, given a thorough explanation of time by the original poster, we'd have something to react to. Without that, the discussion can tend toward the sophomoric.

Perhaps Mick Jagger defined it best as that which is on his side.

First I would like to thank you all for your insights.

Basic science, if it exits in our universe, it is physical in some nature or form. One problem encountered with this question is that it is difficult to seperate the "concept" and effects of time from the "cause" and source of time. I have not found any word to use to seperate these and have not found one in your replys. Therefore "time" is normally used interchangably between the two when they are in fact, two different things.

At the sub-atomic level, light energy gives life through an increase in the energy of the atomic shell by absorbing the energy from the "light energy". We see this in a way through photosynthesis. As these atoms travel through space, the further away from the speed of "light energy", the less light energy is absorbed by the atom.

oppositely, there is a thing called dark energy. this energy "takes away" the energy from the atomic shell at a rate inverse to the speed of light energy. The faster you go, the less effect dark energy has on the atomic shell and the more effect light energy has.

Therefore if an atom travels at the speed of light, it is "in" the light and not affected by the dark and would continue on forever (as light travels hundreds of billions of light years and is still "light"). Conversely, if the atom completely stopped in space, all time of that atom would be instant. (black hole anyone?)

Take living cells for example. Our bodies are programed to "replicate" cells. As the cells of our bodies "degrade" in energy, they are replicated as the degraded cells. eventually the energy of our cells runs out and dies. Apply this to atomic structure and you have the effects of time. The source, dark energy.

The hard truth, the inevitable reality (and it pains me to tell all of you this) is that everything in existance is a construct of my mind. When I am speaking to my wife, and I turn my back on her, she no longer exists, poof, shes gone. This is the case for virtually everything in the "know universe", with the exception, of course, of the bill collector man, it doesn't seem to work with him.

Yes, practical definition of time will keep changing as we get more idea. If we find that our light and that the light from other stars is different in velocity then we will find different constants in Physics laws in the same universe. If we find that similar atoms from different origins have different properties then that will sure confuse all our physics and chemistry. If these two sets of world come closer and merge then we may have third type of world. These are at the level of our experience and rest is only hypothesis with explanation to some properties that deviate the path.

Universe is closer to the expontial laws of which we have taken only linear portion for the daily use. This point and also understanding of saturation in everything was recognized by many. Velocity of light, maximum size of the star etc and why there is limit at all. We are not yet closer to complete things and hence, do not know much about time in beyong the velocity of light or zero velocity of light frames where measurement is not possible and some other person can only tell us using their clock that we missed the flight as our clock did not work. Normally we trust our clock but when we have none, we use other's clock to manage time. We know that two clocks are not same and yet we say OK for now and we will correct for error later,which we do only to confuge the world.

I agree that we should only look into what was defined as the word time. We can define another word and use it for what time can not define and we wat it.

How do I relate my time with your time is the serious problem. If I can't relate one universe linked with another universe linked with time, then it is same problem of not getting linked to my time and with your time. If we believe that there may be discontinuity in time then nothing can be related or experienced by each other in such universes.

If I create 100% vacuum and until some matter moves in, there will be no time inside. Is that what one says that matter is essential for time? Will there be any better condition than this about time in nothing? I agree that time is observed quantity by something using something and not by using nothing but time can also be for nothing and we can find out how long there was nothing. You can have "nothing or space" with no matter in it and it is identified as space using another matter and that is time even for nothing or zero matter. There will be abosolutely no matter in any form anywhere, such condition I completely rule out. Hence time exists along with existance of an observer. Time has meaning only to the observer.

It seems that there is much thought on the effects of time and observing it while we can, much as the blind men discovering the Elephant and proclaiming their theories on what an Elephant "is".

"Time is matter in motion" So matter standing still is unaffected by time. Nope!

"Time is a construct of our minds" Time continues when we sleep. Guess again.

Mass, light, speed, radio waves, consciousness, etc. can be manipulated, controlled, affected. Time cannot be affected by anyone. It is the same anywhere in the universe. As a concept, it fits the description of a law of nature rather than a physical boundary. Almost everything else can be altered, created or destroyed by man. It is not part of a continuum it is a continuum. The terms we use to describe what we do with time (as in wasting time) has nothing to do with time itself, but rather the benefits or lack thereof during activities conducted in a limited space in a segment of time.

Time is not a force. Force requires energy or the trading of power of some kind. Time exerts no force nor does it take force or energy away.

Consider: Everything we know and have learned in the brief space of time we are alive is based on things that we know, or are pretty sure, had a beginning. Most things we are aware of have an end or a dissolution of some sort. Time has no beginning and no end. Once again, this describes the Bible's description of one of the attributes of God. It also says his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. It's funny to me that some people believe that there are aliens (from other planets or from outer space in general, not from Mexico) that may have advanced technology and are able to whiz about the universe at speeds faster than light. The Bible tells of such creatures and why they exist, but because ordinary people know about it, and other more frightening reasons, science shuns it as unscientific. But are we the most intelligent beings in the universe? Or do we just think so?

Sometimes the answer isn't the answer and sometimes we just don't need to know the answer and we wouldn't know what to do with the correct answer if we had it. I expect it would end up on Ebay.

I guess my illustration would be this: You're holding a ticking bomb (a time bomb). You ask the group, "What is time", "Why does it tick instead of beep", "Why do people want to hurt other people", "Why are my pants wet"? Maybe there is a more important question to ask like: "How long do I have before this thing goes off and how fast can I run and, can I out run the explosion when this thing goes off"? Would a prudent person with full mental capacity really try to figure out how to disarm the bomb or plant it in such a way to make the blast beneficial somehow? Not likely.

Still the question is a good one; "What is time"? But only if asked rhetorically.

Do you have to know the right answer to determine which is the wrong answer?

Time in three space is a philosophical concept that allows us, as dwellers in a three dimensional universe, to develop and apply constructs to physical events in our day to day existence. Just as a third dimension would be an unknown or mysterious concept to beings in a two dimensional universe, time for the most part has no physical characteristic in our universe. However, if someone were to somehow transend the constraints of our three dimensional environemnt then time would have a physically dimensionable attribute just as the x,y and z axes have for us. My vision of time in that regard would display all living things as long strings of various size and length that were constantly moving and growing simultabeously on or around the periphery of all inanimate things that are streaming away from an common center as they themslves change with age.

If this is true, then the edge of the universe as we perceive it has a frontier that is ever expanding; keeping it infinite. The instant that the universe stops expanding, due to gravitational forces, then it must by definition begin to collapse at an ever accelerating rate until it collapses into what ever it was before the big bang of creation. Consequently, from the fourth dimension the entire universe would be seen as a finite object that flashes on and off according to the perception of time as a mysterious but perfectly normal fifth dimension.

Sorry forgot to login before posting.

wrench

Has no one seen that the longer it takes to answer the question, What is Time, the farther from the answer one must be?

Something that always exists, that has space and time within is God. Knowledge of its existance is beyond our knowledge. We need to accept that as it is. I was wondering in my childhood about the existance of anything at all that makes the world and this is so even now. Some how things exist and so they will not go away either. Perhaps only changing form is something to expect. That is where time comes into existance.

Time is relative for us and starts from where we point to some information or the first information comes to us. Rest of the informations must come in time else they will be the same information as the first one. This brings in time for us with mutiple knowledge. How do we relate the sequence of information to one another becomes quantitative value of time. For this to happen, we accept some known pointers including that in our body or around us in the environment as tools to quantify time. Whether we know time by our mind or with respect to interactions among the material world is only how we expand the knowledge beyond our body resources.

I agree that time is very basic identity as the space is. No one can say how much space we have and why it is so and what is keeeping that space and what is beyond that space? Is space a relative parameter like time? This was understood by many in early thinking. 3000 year old Vedic literature tells about infinity from which even if you remove infinity or divide it by infinity, it will remain infinity all the time. Time and space extend to infinity and they are neither born nor can be destroyed. Why? What makes it so, and why they have such a property? We need to accept this. We really may noy know their near infinity properties and perhaps they mave limits or may be a close ball like structure and giving only an idea of infinity.

Events are time and disintegration of matter is space. Looks some problem there. Why we feel there is endless space? Unless we find matter we feel it is space. Information less state is space. So is time. Discontinutity in knowledge of matter is time, then what is time for the same matter which is continuous knowledge. Knowledge itself is in time. It uses time to sample information. Hence, between time there is only belief that it is the same thing we knew about in time.

Time is embedded into entire system and is required only to specify changes in space. If nothing changes then time also stops. This may happen in limited universe which may sleep while another universe may be active in time. Going to 100 zero change may be impossible state and perhaps slowing down is the best possible thing, else the universe may never wakeup from its sleep of zero time (no time).

Your almost there. As someone said above, it's "perception encoded in language." With some modifications of your concepts you arrive at the same, simplest and therefore most comprehensive, as well as most contemplative, end: the sine qua non of time. Start with the statement that time is relative. More fundamentally it is existential. Beyond the fundamental, it must be perceived...it doesn't matter how...only that it is...and timelessness is left for God. Without perception time can't be known to exist. Thus you have two legs of a triad upon which knowledge of time depends: existence (of something), perception (that something exists along a continuum). What now remains? A way to know; or, more specifically, a way to know that you know. Enter language; it doesn't matter what language, or by whom or what it's uttered, only that there be a medium (which, like existence, is present in time)--a codification--of perception. The higher the capacity of language, the more extensive and exacting the perception (and the ability of recall needed for higher (read abstract) perception. Thus we might say that the creature closest to the image of the deity might also be the creature most endowed with language and perception--not, either/or but AND. Accordingly we note that an infant human being, which cannot perceive because he has no language, also remains oblivious to the passage, leave aside the concept, of time. As the human creature's language develops, with it develops his perception; and with that his sense of time...so that after about 8 years (give or take) the human creature is fully endowed with a sense of nascent time. He also has developed the capacity for memory, which is merely a reconstruction of time with reference to mental image landmarks...landmarks which have been assigned names, using language, in memory. The landmarks also which cannot be dispensed with...for it is not possible for the mortal brain to actually reconstruct the passage of time in relation to remembered events--all things remembered happen now. So we have the completed triad of essentials to the understanding of time at it's most basic: existence, the ability to perceive existence, and the language essential to perceive. Take any of these away--even from a creature whose "time sense" is developed--and time is lost, partially or utterly to that individual. As a practical consideration, knowing this one can closely determine the age of a human being, for example. One can also, for example, diagnose the presence and severity of certain mental illnesses.

I discovered one new thing.

Space is universe in sleep with zero time clock. It is to be disturbed to wakeup and then it becomes big bang and new universe is born.

I could find continuity to zero time, zero velocity and matter in zero space. If you can give it motion then it will become matter, energy and will fill space.

That is God in sleep the Vushnu in Indian literature. I wonder why they have written that this God is always in sleep and with all knowledge.

In Hindu philosophy, there is longest state of sleep for most of the Gods (Gods in Hibernation), then there is creator and its creation, then the manager and its managemnet and finally the destructor and destruction reaching to the same zero state of sleep zero time or point where space and time become invisible.

Our universe that is visible to us is only small heart beat of the sleeping ziant invisible universe of space - the God. Is space our God? Then what is that is not God? Our univers? Is it having any relationship to the ziant hibernating God or is it in total isolation - with different identity? Birth of the universe is a good possiblity from the ziant sleeping God. Both time and space are born for what we feel as our world.

If you think carefully you will have to agree that God "if there is one" is transcendental. Meaning a "Creator" must exist outside it's creation. The creation may follow certain things or ideas known to the "Creator" but no "Creator" embeds himself in his own creation. He could possibly reach within his creation and change events if he can deal with the time issues within his creation versus his transcendental station.

Time is a by-product of space and motion. no space + no motion = no time or nothingness.

Time would be a dimension even if we were not here to measure it. The Earth's twenty four hour day would be intact. Time is created by the motion of the objects in space from the sub-atomic level to the grand scale movement of galaxies and the outward expansion of our realm itself. Without "space" (the three dimensions) Length by Width by Depth, "time" could not exist. However the motion of objects within the space is still required for time to exist.

So I think of time as a by-product of space and motion. A steady state universe or realm could simply not exist. If you look at the Big Bang, when motion started so did time and after the space inflation caused by the annihilation of matter and antimatter the needed space, objects and motion made our realm a reality measured by it's by-product "time".

However, the would-be's rest on belief--albeit intuitive--not on observation. Space itself is a construct based on observation. It is not enough to say we could imagine it to exist without it being observed to exist--without an imaginer. Because there would be no basis for such an imagining if the observer did not exist. Try for example to imagine time which does not exist.

Like time in the transcendental station of the "Creator" or another realm because it is not our realm or time in our realm that has already passed? Space is not only an observation it's a variable that must exist in any realm to have time. But time is only measured by the present moment. Passed time has expired and doesn't exist anymore and anticipated future time hasn't occurred yet.

If at this instant our realm expires the passed time was real and happened but the anticipated future time didn't occur but I imagine it could have. Just like it could be passing in other realms (spaces with motion) as we blog. My bets are this is happening!

Personally, I don't believe time has anything to do with observation, measurement or motion within it. A similar notion is that a tree falling in the forest with nobody to observe makes no sound! Scientifically, sound is made by compression of air molecules which happens whether or not anyone is there to receive it's effects.

There may be effects of time that are yet unobserved. How long have we been in an age of enlightenment? Perhaps we will find more about time itself in the future. In the meantime, scientists who are the most able to grasp concepts being discovered are able to humble themselves and also modestly admit they don't know everything, even if they know more than anyone else on this planet about a certain subject.

Engineers on the other hand, are more concerned with application of available data. Curious discussion this, in an engineering forum.

To say one doesn't believe...is to say one only believes, I believe but also know. And the engineers know, even if reluctant to believe, that it so to the philosopher, as purveyor of ultimate truths, that engineering must ultimately yield. For the philosopher seeks to know; the engineer seeks to measure what is known.

"Scientifically," sound is observed to be explainable, thence knowable, thence scientific, as a compression-rarefaction phenomenon of something observed to be explainable as particles called molecules. Without a being to "know," science (defined as knowing) falls into the realms of the supernatural. From the knowing about sound (and other phenomena) the engineer may seek to quantify and invent.

I am the original poster to this thread

Yes, time is only a "side-effect" of the universe just as gravity is. from an observer on earth, the universe would appear to travel through time, if you will. From an observer's point of view from outside our universe, time would originate from within our universe. Time is not a law of the universe, not even a constant, only a relative side effect.

Going forward in time as we do on earth is balanced in the universe by sub-atomic matter going backward "in time" at above the speed of light. I will never stop saying "balance is the secret of the universe". physics 101, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Time, from the universes point of view, is only a "relative" side effect. forwards or backwards depending on speed

We explore space and never explore time? Does burning more fuel in a car makes time to srink? After all it takes less time for same space. Is velocity a manipulation of time?

Absolutely! If an object travels at the velocity of light time approachs zero or slows to an eventual halt for that object. At the same time though the object becomes an infinite mass according to the big boys like Albert and a few other noteables. How can this be? Read the Special and General Theory of Relativity and follow Albert's mathematics. For most of us that's a lifetime study and a lot of it is still not proven. The Gravity Probe B satellite results will be available by mid 2007 and we will know more about the validity of the GTR. However after one hundred years we still have not disproven any of Einstein's theories. The GTR is one heavy piece of theory but it does put a logical spin on reality that will be hard to refute. Assuming Einstein made some miscalculations.

Matter with speed of light will experience zero time or dead clock? I don't think so. In that case light should be taking zero time to travel. That is not true.

How much we know about the light itself. Just like that calling it zero mass and wave for electric and magnetic field will not do to make energy. Something is missing that is also associated with which these fields remain associated.

Think about it and you will find a new world within a Photon in which there is time again for everything present inside whether or not we can have idea about it. There must be lot of design and stability in time to give shape and association to all information within a Photon. Forget uncertainity etc. Those are for present knowledge.

Our source of information need to be billion or trillion time faster than the speed of light and what is that can do so is yet to be discovered. All those believe that nothing can move faster than light in vacuum will find learning once again from start.

Something is as fast that can reach million and billion light years away much sooner. All those believe in God must have this belief as well else your God can not handle the universe at all. Stop thinking that God is incapable unless you think there is no God.

Now find out the way God can handle it and you can also do it. Send a request email to God or invite the God to join the discussion. Perhaps, we may be lucky to get few words from God. Isn't that some people hear things from God. Then this is a good question to be ask unless it is top secrete of the God.

OK, OK, ! I finally have to bite.

Try this out:

Time is a condition of a frame of reference, affected by energy and mass,
determining our perception of duration within the frame, and relative to other
frames. - Take your best shots.

As to Shyams photon statement:

'A photon may be defined as a 'forbidden` energetic event, frozen in time,
condemned to flee through the universe seeking to undo itself.`
Kinda poetic what? - Chew on that one too.

The funny thing is that you can use an ordinary stop watch not accurately measure the velocity of light, even though the velocity of light has greater information communication capability in shorter span of time.

One should ask about the shortest time one can measure and how accurate that will be. fastest event is the best source of information to us even though we can't have direct information and information comes much later to us.

Something happened light year away is also an information today as long as it survived in time. We never know if some gallaxy has passed inbetween and disturbed that communication and what we are getting is all wrong now. We trust because we see it in all glittering sky which we all know isn't real. Problem is that it may be all bluff and from somewhere else and projecting to us where we feel now it is in virtual reality.

If information are interlinked and nested, and do not change or change all together, then our time remains unchanged. However for an external observer, these things are really changing with respect to its own changes may feel our time entirely in different way.

If we didn't have light as source of information (no eyes) and we were like bats then sound might have been our best source of information for estimation of time and perhaps we might have predicted that no velocity is greater than the velocity of sound.

We are blind to many thing now and perhaps will find to sense things by building more faster eye than the velocity of light may restrict and then we will say Oh-Yeah we left the light behind long ago when we crossed the barrier of light.

I will say, keep thinking and today more people are thinking and some one will find the way to leave the light behind to see the dark matter and a new world from something else. I feel that something is waiting for us to become known in coming years and that will hardly take time to travel.

If that is not possible then all Gods are as human as the people todays are or the people thmselves are God which is not true. Something is beyong this, faster, accurate, with greater knowledge to create all this and its laws. Then who ceated God and why? Has universe created itself like God creating oneself. I am getting born from myself and I live on myself and need nothing else to be forever. Is that the universe is?

For any time to be sensed, events need to be there that are time counts. Only events that occur and re-occur give sense of time as it is something known to us in that way. If events stop from occuring then we call it a dead clock. Something is occuring in us which tells that clock is dead. If our biological clock becomes dead, then we will not be able to count external events as they will move just too fast. If our biological clock becomes too fast then all external clocks will slow down. This fact was used in General theory of relativity by changing reference to another clock in place of biological clock.

Very good Shyam, I aggree that our reality is limited to our sample rate. The search is on for a faster sample rate. Perhaps it has already been found, and is only achievable on an individual basis through developing a higher consciencenous.

That would make time equal to "what you make of it"

I have conclusive proof that one's sample rate is a direct consequence of the volume of coffee consumed per unit time. Of course, as "unit time" is itself influenced by this rate, the overall relationship is best described as a non-linear one. The actual mathematics of the relationship are quite complex, really, and consequently are well beyond the scope of this discussion.

I must also admit here that my aims are a bit more modest: I'm not looking for higher consciousness as such. Heaven knows that for me this would just be a silly pipe dream and clearly a waste of time. Rather, I've learned to be content with just having any consciousness at all. Consequently, it helps to ready the coffee pot the night before. You know, before everything goes black.

--E

Re sample rate:

There was a guy from Kansas who wanted to understand tides, so went to the beach, and made an observation each day at precisely the same time. For the first fifteen days or so, the tide was slightly further out each day. Then, for the next fifteen days, the tide moved in a little each day, eventually reaching the point where it was on his first day. He concluded that the tide requires thirty days for each in-out cycle.

(If the point of this is lost on any of you landlubbers, Google for the tide tables for San Fransisco Bay or somewhere else.)

Oh, pleeze Mr. Ken, pleeze don't leave us hanging here in the lurch with only our little tippytoes between us and the yawning Abyss of Suspense below!!!

Pleeeeze, Mr. Ken?!? !!!

(Come to mention it, what is a "lurch" anyway?)

--!@#$$@%

Leave you in the lurch??!! Am I doing that?

A lurch is a type of tree. Here in the east we spell it with an a i.s.o. a u.

If you are concerned about the obliquity of my tide comment, then I'll say this. This. Whoops, sorry. It's about inadequate sample rate. If you go to the beach, you'll see that the tide moves very, very, slowly. Further, the waves are rather random and make it hard to tell if the tide is coming in or going out. So, some twit of a scientist might decide to make a scientific study and measure the tide at exactly the same time every day (given that he knows nothing about tides, and is trying to determine if they go in and out once a week, twice a week, etc.) So he shows up every day, and there is a clear pattern, as described above. And he makes the conclusion above. If you look at a tide table, you see that low tide (or any other reference point) changes by a little less than one hour per day. In thirty days, you go from low tide at say 6:00 am to its again being at about 6:00 am.

So, the point of this little example is that by having a too-low sample rate, our twit of a scientist didn't measure the actual tide cycle, (which takes about 12 hours) but instead measured the gradual shift in the cycle that occurs from month to month. (I've been pondering why that cycle is not 28 days – I think it's cuz, for a given location, the earth's tilt also screws things up beyond the moon's inability to hold still. )

By extension, by having a too-low sample rate, perhaps our notion of time is screwed up too. I doubt it. I think time is way simpler than the length of this discussion would lead one to believe. Heck, when I was a bit younger, right there on the TV they'd say "It's eleven o'clock. Do you know where your children are." I didn't have to think long to figure out what they meant by "eleven o'clock". (And hell, I didn't even have kids then, so I wasn't paying attention all that well.) Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. (I'm willing to bet you are one of those Austin types what fails to put the accent on the right syllable in SEEgar.)

There… now git outa that dang tree, for ya brake yarm.

As you didn't seem to be getting any takers, I thought perhaps you might want to post your answer to this riddle before the thread itself was finally abandoned in the wake of all the new posts. Btw, I lived on the East Coast for ten years; six of those on Plum Island, Massachusetts. I even had one of those one-handed tide clocks on my mantle. They tend to run a little slow, btw. And so yes, Nyquist just might have something to say about the validity of Professor Twit's conclusions. Just to save airfare, though, the poor bastard might have considered taking a cozy beach house for the duration - and not in Kansas! -E PS: Wonder if the GlobalSpec crew is overhauling their 'New Comment' editor again. No buttons on tonight's version.. Seems it eats whitespace again, like it did a number of weeks ago. At least I can still enter text.

I would not argue your coffe test results, however I am requesting that you continue experimenting (in the name of science) with other 'mind sampe rate improvers', and report back with the results...or better yet, report back during the test and we will judge for ourselves :)

You wrote: "...or better yet, report back during the test and we will judge for ourselves :)"

Now that's a scary thought!

I have considered at various times to evaluate the efficacy of certain Asian Pharmaceuticals in the pursuit of Higher Consciousness. Fortunately, this won't be necessary, as my cat has apparently beat me to the punch.

"Timothy, can you tell these good people what you found?"

"@#%@$^$^&$*$#^#%^#%^#^#%^%^#$"

There you are! Any questions?

-E

To sense beyond the limit of light we need something that extends itself all over in the universe and does not travel or require time to travel. It must move as fast as your mind can think and move or even faster. Just think of another Gallaxy and you are there to see it. The way you think and you move your hand and lag. After all it just happens to you and not that you are doing anything other than thinking about it.

If this is somewhere hidden in our head which is linked to the our existance of the universe. Then some one among us will find it oneday and will travel faster than speed of light.

As ordinary clock can measure the speed of light accurately, we will than can map the universe also, if we only find a way to reach and sense the universe (faster or slower does not matter). If we are everuwhere then we need travel at all. We can use such methods and can travel locally small distance after pointing to where we want to sense things. If you can reach faster farther or find that you are already there and then information at farther distances you can watch as movie. Learn to reach without travel and experience by field and field manipulation and not by energy travel. Focus yourown fild of sensing to a point at farther distance where it is already there and hear among billion souds the sound that you want to hear and you will hear that. Do not question me, just question yourownself and find an answer. That is the answer. The way your mind is the universe is also percieved the same way by you. We have a hope for future if not we see it today.

We have this missing factor of reaching faster or in zero time. I am sure that is possible and one day we will know it as an ordinary thing, unless we are prevented from using this power some how by something. Death is the limit set on us by something to live not more than 300 years (I sensed this limit somehow for human life as maximum days to survival possible). We must break that first and live as much we want to live. We may then also be able to build the senses for looking beyond the limit of what we have today. Perhaps it need time to evolve sensors and we are dead before that time is about to reach. Our brain starts killing itself before that. We should stop the brain death first and give it a way to keep developing endlessly.

Light makes eyes, and sound make ears. If these things can form senses in our system then on our search or demand, either we will find a sensing mechanism that already exist in us and that can see the farthest distances or may be that we will be able to evolve one that will work for us. If we think we need it then the brain/system will develop it somehow.

We know very little about our brain. We only know how it allows us to know about its few departments and rest it handles by itself in a safe way.

There are two of us in one system. One that makes us know things and one that we do not come to know but we learn from that knows that something else also exists, that knows and does the work and does not pass the control to us.

One that we know drinks, smokes and abuses the self and one that we do not know tries to protect us from all harm done to the self. Both of ourselves learn and develop independently and are also affected by each other's status. How much our inner self is capable of is only known to us from what we observe. We see that it makes us breath, it beats the heart and it digests the food, it saves us from sickness and it heals from damages, it makes us survive and it also kills us finally.

The outerself (by which we ourself or our existance) builds computers, measures speed of light and says Oh Yeah that is the limit. But does the innerself accepts that? Is the innerself dumb? Perhaps not and is more active and knowledgable than the outerself. May be perhaps, it keeps all secretes and laughs on the capabilities of the outerself.

Inner self is made of millions of clocks that work together and perhaps with too much of information for our single outerself brain that knows things can ever handle it. Hence, it (the innerself) takes care of this part collectively and very effectively.

Hopefully, as we know that all living systems are evolving, we will evolve into something that can reach beyond the speed of light and perhaps with speed of mind. We are not even near to fully analyze ourself as we need different type of brain to do so.
It needs to evolve or it may be evolving and there is need for it now that may be making it to evolve. We all are making it to evolve or asking it to evolve and perhaps it is searching ways to evolve all the time we think about such things as requirement. There is no evolution without need. Each such thought will drill a hole in the walls of present confinement of limits (confinement to the speed of light system) and will be forcing into its new creativity to a much higherself and then a new sense will be in us. Meditate on your mind and you have this in you as part of you.

Perhaps you have to make your mind to believe that this is something essential to survive. Imagine that the earth no longer can hold us or we need to leave earth to survive, then God in you will understand it and will open new gate for you to find way out. Remember that you can't bluff the God and you only request the God for a good purpose then it will let you have the way. It know all right and wrong all the time. You can say that your innerself is your present God. Hindus believe that God is in you. Perhaps your God may be away or you may not believe in God at all, then also you call the innerself. Concentrate in the center of your forehead, the point or gate for the innerself and you may then communicate.

Knowledge is like rooms in a hotel. All these rooms may be there and only gate is to be opened or may be a new room to be built. You can do all that by asking the innerself to do that for you as yourcapabilities as outerself have not reach to that level yet. Your innerself is cable to give you access to more departments if it wished so. It is not your right, it is the good will that may get reciprocated.

Coming back to the time and the clock is almost as you understand it from your capabilities of today. You can say whatever you like about it with your limited capabilities. That does not really tell the truth about time itself. It only tells how you are now understanding it in your mental reference. Most of knowledge is perception of the brain and its belief.

It is all right to beleive your mind as you see or feel inside and can trust the perception even though you are in a totally confused state of mind. Hindu philosophy says that it is all confusion but also says it is a virtual reality created for a purpose. It is all right to have this dream in which you can have another dream in which you can have another dream and another dream. Is there a limit if you wish to dream in that way? There are just mirrors and reflections all over our minds. I feel happy that I am living in my dream and I am also interacting with the world in my dream. I also feel pain and pleasure in my dream. I am happy with this dream and I know it will not last forever and I will wakeup in another dream elsewhere.

In dreams any amount of capabilities can be acquired. That is only to be beleived or experienced. One day we will experience it and then the limit of light will be far behind. I do not want to be limited in my life and will dream of moving that fast fast that the light will find it impossible to catch with me. I will light up my path by my innerself and not by the slowly crowling light.

I am taking leave from "the time" now. Thanks all. Nice to be a part of you all in "the time". We already mapped the universe to some level. This already proved that thoughts travel faster than light. It also put a question mark on God's capabilities different from your own. You can beleive whatever you want to beleive but you can't percieve beyond the God permits you. Your God is your definition and it could be just yourself. I am sure if universe here forever, then we all are here forever and will meet again at somepoint in time and space in some form or the other bound by the gravity of thoughts and goodwill. Today's fiction is tomorrows reality. Bye.

Hello, Yes Time? This is the interval between any two events.

Our concept of time has come about because our planet happens to rotate about a star (our sun), and also rotate on it's own axis as well, and it is tilted at 23.5 degrees from the vertical. So we get an interval of 365 1/4 earth rotations about the sun and one earth rotation has been divided in to sub units we call hours, the main unit being the day. We noticed that when a stick was placed in the ground that it cast a shadow, this was seen to move, and to grow, or shrink as the sun moved in our sky. Next we placed a disc so the shadow would move against marks that divided the (Day) into shorter intervals (Hours, Minuets). At night (no sun) this could not work!

So another means was required the mechanical clock, were cogs, and gears could mimic the same process, and provide (24H) time. Now we use the oscillation of rare gases to measure time. However time is a local thing, and is still just the mechanical observation of the interval between any two events, it just so happens we can now quantify these things. Out side of our planet these things mean nothing, and a whole new way of doing things would have to be thought up. If our planet was to suddenly stop all movement, time as we know it would also stop, except for our artificial means to carry on pretending. Biological prosses would carry on for some further interval, but eventualy all life would come to an end. This is just brief explanation, and I have left out some parts so as not to complicate matters.

very funny

time is God

it is one of his qualities.

God is above ower thinking abilitis .

we get to know time becouse we think.

time is like all othere matterials ,thow they exsist but no one can tell about it except the inteligence mind.

time exsist's from the begining .

you cant follow time .

no one can.

but the one created it

time is like a net it travels in all directions

time is one of the chemical of life.

time is nombers.

numbers are things that exsist and created by another structures.

time is bla bla bla bla bla bla time is this dot ( . )

No matter how much time you have, you still can't spell english :)

e-n-g-l-i-s-h ?

I struggle with this, too.

t-h-i-s

-E

For any who have not become completely exhausted by the flood of postings, and even those who have, I recommend looking at the web site

http://www.friesian.com/space-2.htm

Interesting.

Too bad Immanuel Kant be here to discuss this himself! I'm sure he would make some valuable Kantrobutions to Kantum Mechanics!

On a less heady topic...

Why Did The Chicken Cross The Road?

1. Pat Buchanan: To steal a job from a decent, hard-working American.
2. Machiavelli: The point is that the chicken crossed the road. Who cares why? The ends of crossing the road justify whatever motive there was.
3. John Locke: Because he was exercising his natural right to liberty.
4. Albert Camus: It doesn't matter; the chicken's actions have no meaning except to him.
5. The Bible: And God came down from the heavens, and He said unto the Chicken, "Thou shalt cross the road." And the Chicken crossed the road, and there was much rejoicing.
6. Fox Mulder: It was a government conspiracy.
7. Freud: The fact that you thought that the chicken crossed the road reveals your underlying sexual insecurity.
8. Darwin: Chickens, over great periods of time, have been naturally selected in such a way that they are now genetically dispositioned to cross roads.
9. Richard M. Nixon: The chicken did not cross the road. I repeat, the chicken did not cross the road.
10. Oliver Stone: The question is not "Why did the chicken cross the road?" but is rather "Who was crossing the road at the same time whom we overlooked in our haste to observe the chicken crossing?"
11. Jerry Seinfeld: Why does anyone cross a road? I mean, why doesn't anyone ever think to ask, "What the heck was this chicken doing walking around all over the place anyway?"
12. The Pope: That is only for God to know.
13. Louis Farrakhan: The road, you will see, represents the black man. The chicken crossed the "black man" in order to trample him and keep him down.
14. Martin Luther King, Jr.: I envision a world where all chickens will be free to cross roads without having their motives called into question.
15. Immanuel Kant: The chicken, being an autonomous being, chose to cross the road of his own free will.
16. Grandpa: In my day, we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the road. Someone told us that the chicken had crossed the road, and that was good enough for us.
17. Dirk Gently (Holistic Detective): I'm not exactly sure why, but right now I've got a horse in my bathroom.
18. Erich Maria Remarque: The chicken crossed the road because, after his experience with war, he no longer felt at home in his home.
19. Bill Gates: I have just released the new Chicken 2000, which will both cross roads AND balance your checkbook, though when it divides 3 by 2 it gets 1.4999999999.
20. M.C.Escher: That depends on which plane of reality the chicken was on at the time.
21. George Orwell: Because the government had fooled him into thinking that he was crossing the road of his own free will, when he was really only serving their interests.
22. Colonel Sanders: I missed one?
23. Plato: For the greater good.
24. Karl Marx: It was a historical inevitability.
25. Nietzsche: Because if you gaze too long across the Road, the Road gazes also across you.
26. B.F. Skinner: Because the external influences, which had pervaded its sensorium from birth, had caused it to develop in such a fashion that it would tend to cross roads, even while believing these actions to be of its own freewill.
27. Jean-Paul Sartre: In order to act in good faith and be true to itself, the chicken found it necessary to cross the road.
28. Albert Einstein: Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road crossed the chicken depends upon your frame of reference.
29. Pyrrho the Skeptic: What road?
30. The Sphinx: You tell me.
31. Buddha: If you ask this question, you deny your own chicken nature.
32. Emily Dickenson: Because it could not stop for death.
33. Ralph Waldo Emerson: It didn't cross the road; it transcended it.
34. Ernest Hemingway: To die. In the rain.
35. Dan Frazier: For fowl reasons.

Actually, down south, it crossed the road just to prove to the possum that it could be done. Note:this is the animal: Possum, the Americanized species, not to be confused with the O'Possum, the Irish version.(heh heh)

The chicken crossed the road to prove to the possum that it could, in fact, be done.

Of course, that is a southern Americanized possum, not the more famous original Irish version, the O'Possom.

Time doesn't exist except as a measurement tool created by man.

I remember as a child being aware of time, but without having any concept of its measurement. Consequently, I should still be a child.

Without Man to instantiate Time's existence as a measurement tool, nothing ages. Anywhere.

Time, and its measurement by Man, are effectively one and the same thing.

Similarly, space does not exist except as a measurement tool created by Man.

Works for me!

-E

I have read all 145 replies so far and not one of them answers the question with a plausible theory that isn't either circular in reasoning or more philosophical than scientific. How about this theory... We live in a universe of four linear dimensions. The familiar x,y, and z dimensions are experienced in their entirety. That is, we can (theoretically) see, experience and explore x, y, and z from minus infinity to plus infinity. In the case of the fourth dimention, t, however, we are restricted to only a point on the t axis. We are therefore unaware of this fourth dimension because we are exposed to an infinitessimally small region of it. However, what we see as a three-dimentional universe xyz is actually the intersection of xyz with the one dimensional t. Furthermore, the point that we experience on the t-axis is moving at a (more-or-less) constant velocity, causing the intersection of [xyz] and [t] to be constantly changing. This constant change is perceived by us as time.

Bill Morrow

this is exactly what I meant, when I said, there is no evidence of past or future. but you have explained it better.

Hello, yes time as I see it is the interval between any two events however short or long. This is measured by reference to standard (clock) as we call it.

Here on planet Earth we also refer to the passing of daylight (the Sun) and our orbit about said body of gas. The physical reality that we face is that this is continual situation until we draw our last breath. A linear progression to a programmed departure. If the Earth never moved in any way we would have to have invented another means of keeping track of events. Our calendas are just an extention of the clock but in bigger units. Out in space time fails to mean anything due to a lack of reference back to a master (Clock). Everything that relies on time has to have some means of generating it's own set of rules and have a means to lock onto a master clock so as to syncronize or every one would know their own time but no one would know the real time. A man with one watch thinks he knows the time, a man with two watches gets cofused, A man with three watches new knows what the real time is.

If the cesium clock were to start drifting we would all be at sea. In the end time is irrelevant except when we have to conform to a schedule, on a desert island who would care if it were any given time! I would not.

What you are describing is the experience and measurement of time, but not it's nature. One can eat cake and taste it, and cut cake into ever finer slices, and still never know 'what' the cake is. What we are in search of, is the absolute nature of the 'cake', or time. At this point, we can't even bake a cake, let alone, say what the ingredients are in creating time or understanding all the ingredients.

In discussing time, we must continually distinguish between the experience (taste and texture) of the cake (time) and the nature of the cake (time)

In order to find out what cake is made of, we can burn it, and view its atomic composition through the spectral patterns, but we cannot burn time. Even our existence in the universe doesn't 'use' time. I don't think time can truly be wasted. Otherwise, the billions of years of time since the beginning would be waste, if we weren't here to witness and use productively.

Time is dimensions beyond our sensory experience, and intimately involved with those dimensions we do sense and measure. we haven't begun to truly solve this riddle. When we create virtual realities on computers (games etc), we mimic 'real' time with math, but because time underlies all matter and energy, it can't be just math in reality, it must have a physical nature, somehow. If it is just math, then, the nature of the universe is math, or information. As I've said before, if this is true, then God exists for sure.

chris

Hello, Time is just a concept, it has no real existance. We as humans need to explain everything but some times we should just accept there will always be things we cannot hope to give definative answer to. Time is far too alusive to explain in absolute terms. We will just have to leave it at that for now.

do not tell the engineers and scientists that! omg its against their nature~

OK I'll keep it under wraps.

Time is simply an enumeration of events.Every time piece that man has invented has relied on events to mark time.Whether it is the slow pendulum of a grandfather clock, or the oscillations of a cesium atom, we are merely counting events.We cannot measure time without events.Imagine floating in featurless space.No stars or planets or any other object to use as a reference point.There would be nothing to mark the passage of time.You would not know how long you were in this place, a day, a year, or a century.Time is a construct of man to help him make sense of his surroundings. Time is not to be confused with space-time,which is an entirely different case. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HiTekRedNek

The ancients gods built stone circles all over the world, to act as observatories, to determine star positions. The understood all about the precession of the planet, and its ~25,000 year long "Great Year". They divided the heavens into the 12 houses, based on the precessional cycle, and they changed rulers according to this 'clock' which was the change in position of solstices (rising sun position on the horizon) with resepect to earth, and other star based references.. All of which was the best, most accurate universal time clock that they could come up with... and not event driven, but relationship driven. and of course, most clocks are actually frequency driven, not event driven.

Define frequency.It is an oscillation.An oscillation is a repeating EVENT. Back to square one.As I said, a change in position of at least 2 objects in relation to each other, an event.Inside the frequency driven clock is a crystal that is oscillating. A lot of them use a 3.58 Mhz crystal, because they are so cheap.They are so cheap because so many of them were made for televisions.Some clocks use the 60 cycle power frequency,as did televisions for vertical sweep, prior to dividing the horizontal freqeuncy (15750 MHZ) by 525(number scan of lines) to arrive at 30hz, interlaced.Notice that new televisions have no need for a vertical hold adjustment. All due to counting Events.Gotta go, out of time......

Actually, in reality, an analog oscillation is NOT an repeating event. it is a continuous motion. It is your mind that tells you it is repetitive. not reality. No two things are absolutely identical if they are separated in time. they merely appear that way to our mind, because we have a tendency to take most of our experiential input for granted.

I'm sorry, but I do have a fundamental disagreement with you here. "Repetitive" is merely terminology that describes the "apparent" cycle. In an absolute sense, there is no actual repetition... it is a continuous signal, motion, or output.

Chris

Suppose that you are a very complex programmed carbon-based computer that was activated only moments ago, with all of your present "memories" in place. Every thing that you "remember" is false, only pre-wired programming. All of the "reality" you see around you is also merely a program. How would you prove otherwise? Can you step outside of the program for an objective look?You can't.You are stuck to deal with "reality" as best you can.You try to find the smallest particle, but the furthur you dig, the harder it becomes to find anything "solid".All you find are force fields, interacting with other force fields."Solid matter" is an illusion.You invent elaborate stories (theories) to explain reality, the more complex and intricate the better.From string theory to P-BRANE theory.(Ironic, isn't it?).You are willing to accept these elaborate and complex theories rather than the simple truth.For the truth requires humility and wisdom , and they are in rather short supply among scientists as a whole.DNA is the most compact, elegant and powerful progam ever written.I personally do not believe that it came about by chance.According to Hawkins, things do not break down into a more orderly form, they always assume a more disordered state.A glass that falls off of a a table will never put itself back together again.Such is the nature of the universe. So how could DNA self-assimilate? Evolution goes against Hawkins theory of chaos. Everyone has their own personal belief system, and I will not argue against anyone's belief.To do so would be highly egotistical, to think that my way is the only "right" way.Some people feel a need to defend their beliefs,and to solicit others to believe as they do.This gives them reassurance that they are right, I suppose.Others are threatened by opposing or different beliefs.How can you be threated by other's opinions if you have the courage of your convictions? Well, I have strayed far from the main topic of this forum, and so I will now step down form my soap box and go back to my knitting and meditation. ######################################################### Grandma Kettle

Time is a resource that is spent reading and writing in this forum...

Does "spent" = "squandered"?

An alternative meaning might be "invested". Depends on one's point of view, really.

Time is analog and whatever may be our limit to measure it, we can imagine that there is time in between. Hence, it is something for our use and something to satisfy our ego of capability, which we never have. Time is real and time can be imaginary. You can run a movie or audio tape faster or slower and its contents can be related in different times. The same way our universe can also be run in different time scales for others but we on the tape may hardly experience unless we have some different experience coming back to us to relate to such tempering with our system. Things of this time and that time may again come at same point in another time creating another time link and this is possible the way we get radiation from far matter that started in one time but not at one place and now getting linked in time to one place where we are. This will happen again so we do not know which radiation we are getting. The one that was pointing to us or that made one more round. I am sure, you all are pointing big ?? towards me so I agree you know differently then the way I know time. I am not in time but time is in my mind and understanding. That also means it is outside for you unless you are same as my mind or linked to my mind.

Time is defines and things are related to it. One can also compute and find that there is world of time in between any event that may take place. Only we may not have way to reach it. For simplicity one can relate it to any real thing one knows and that does change and has a group of alike to be numbered and related to other things.

OK then, perhaps Time is life's newest or ultimate sense. Just as the evolution of eyes required generations of life forms to live out of focus. Time is currently fuzzy. We know there is more there, but do not have the brains to use or understand it. Eyesight may have improved life's sample rate of reality but it is only digital-not analog. I wonder if memory is analog. Memory is our only proof of time.

Time is a quantized physical effect within our universe. This effect is upon the elemental sub-atomic particles. as the particles speed up, they experience less time, which is energy degradation. the effects of time can be slowed down, sped up, and even reversed. Time exists in forward motion, from our perspective of the universe, which is in three dimensional space. In 6 dimensional space, time moves forward and backward, heaven at greater than the speed of light. In the 7th dimension, (GOD), there literally is no such thing as time, that is how GOD truly is always everywhere! time has a physical effect upon every physical thing, therefore, time must be a physical (quantized) aspect of the universe.

sometimes I know what the time is but sometimes I dont know what is time. its really curious.

countless scientists research it. and hasnt got a satisfactory answer now.

I read many lectures from chinldhood. not only it concern our life closely, but because some study. I feel that the more reading the more stuck.

I know only the real life time.I forget the theory of relativity. mass, energy, speed, time... but Im still interesting in it.

lets see charming time in the fiction movies

Time is space in motion in all directions at a speed = to C.

As an object accelerates toward the speed of light, "time" slows down , as the relative speed differential between the object and space decreases.When an object or particle achieves the speed of C , then "time" stands still, or in effect, does not exist, therefore time is dependent on the relative movement of space to exist.The rate of perceived time passage is dependent on the relationship of the object's speed thru space (which is always moving at C).

Now: clear as mud?

If there is a time when there is no time then how can time be a dimension?

......." time is dependent on the relative movement of space to exist".

The keyword here is "relative" to the perception of the object at that speed.Elsewhere, time marches on at the normal(relative) rate

Imagine a very long passenger car on a train moving at exactly 30 mph.Imagine a vehicle on top of that car, traveling at exactly the same speed in the opposite direction.To a stationary observer beside the track, the passenger car is passing by at 30 mph, but the vehicle on top apperars to be standing still. A passenger on the train sees the outside terrain passing by at 30 mph.A passenger in the vehicle on top of the passenger car sees the terrain as standing still.It is not really what you see, it is how you look at it.

Everything which exists is subject to the effects of "time" at a relative rate. These effects are negative and degenerative at c or less and theoretically, positive and regenerative at greater than c. The greater the velocity, the less the effects of "time". If the velocity of a "thing" determines it's rate of time, and its rate of time is a direct corelation of it's rate of degeneration, then time is a physical attribute of every "thing", or it is an external "force" affecting everything.

I shall forever stand firm in my opinion that time is a quantized aspect of each and every single particle in the universe.

P.s. I am not referring to the measurement of time, but what time is itself.

Quantized time, discrete numbers and what in between that discrete numbers only some other time can tell? ha-ha. There is only one time parameter or is it different? I have my time and you have your time and we have one common time. Looks interesting one but very strange thing if at all true. In Hindu Philosophy time is a Chakra or circle. I am not sure if any scientific proof was ever listed anywhere.

Time has no start no end and no discontinuity. It is different thing that you will never no all about it as time is a primary finest thing you will ever like to know.

Initially we have no time to know about the time and by the time you know about the time you have no more time left over. Still I will like to know about time and will appreciate all those trying to know about time in their time.

Time is the Universal prison, it is that from which nothing and nobody escapes.

A scientific approach to an event would declare that the event was preceeded by a previous event that caused the present event; "cause and effect".

If all actions produce an equal and opposite reaction, then all present actions (or events) are the result of untold trillions of previous actions, or events.By the same logic, all future events are the result of present events.Therefore, even our thoughts are subject to the same rules, for they are only chemical in nature,even the electrical portions are produced chemically.So even on the subatomic level,the universe is a very complicated arrangement of dominoes.The question is:What or Who triggered the first dominoe, and do we really have free will, or are we simply deluding ourselves?The big bang creates more questions than it aswers.I feel that we will never truly understand the universe in which we live, in all of it's complexity.

If the universe were simple enough for us to understand, we would be too simple to understand it.