Design for kids

You need to tell more.

BASIC design of what? Mechanical, electrical, scientific experiment, structure model or what?

Design starts at exposure to things and pencil and paper with small tools to draw lines and curves.

Manufacturing of model is an engineering work and done after design is complete.

>> Manufacturing of model is an engineering work and done after design is complete.

This is true of only our (*so-called*) professional environment. But, for children, designing will (or can) continue after Manufacturing (in other words, after building something). It is a Cycle !! And, the stages of the cycle are so overlapping, it is very difficult to find out whether they are 'exploring' / 'designing' / 'building'. The time they spend depends on their Perseverence and the level of interest / determination they have in the subject.

I sometimes feel very bad when I no-longer continue my work on an interesting subject that I finished earlier (as a project, for example). Because, I complete a project to get money (well, not always... But usually!! Right?) and I don't want to 'waste' my time on something which won't earn back any $$$.

What do you all feel?

firstly with challenging play toys where problems are solved in mechanical and other ways. As they get older, set them problems with rewards for success and encouragement for failure.

A lot of the lego type of toys amd maccano and others like it are good for this. Teach the boys as well as the girls. Too few girls are streamed in to basket weaving and housework for my liking ( and boys get too little of that aspect....make them well rounded)

most kids will discover some "basic laws of phsyics"; like gravity and mass etc. as they also find some laws are hard to break. you might incourage design interests, with a lil' help from mothernature(a magnifyingglass and snowflakes landing on a car windshield etc. come to mind). multishape "building block" sets(for very young minds) and the endless drawing,"etch a sketch", that does not require the phydical mastery of holding and pressing down on paper, hard enough to make a line,but not enough to break a crayon,penscil, or pen(not to mention drawing a straight line!) save the "Tsquare and triangles" etc. for wayyy later, when their creative lil' minds want to put that great invention idea on paper(so dadcan get it patented for them?). a basic geometry challange might help too. like would you please draw a figure that has "hexalateral sides and is :octangular"(6 sides, 8 equal angles, 4 90dgreX 2/hint you sprinkled your frenchfries with it,or the basic "cube"!). kids natural curiosity/about nearly everything, like leaf shapes, an why is grass long and slim?. can introduce them to nature's art/design works like flowers,insects,birds,fish,even snail shells etc. designs only recently being used by designers today. when they ask why are things shaped like they are? point out that nature designed them that way,probably after 1,000's of redesigns over millions of years, till she thought it was right!!.. kids have ideas, let'em express'em, on paper, in clay, whatever they like. i like fishing, chukfinn

9

I agree with much of your post, except for one thing...

When was the last time you drew a full-color rainbow with an Etch-a-Sketch? Your name? Flowers and hearts? The words, "I love you daddy" with each letter a different color and the whole surrounded by a great big three-colored heart? When was the last time you stuck an EaS picture on the fridge with a magnet? How many treasured EaS pix drawn by your little kid have you saved in your keepsake box?

I have to disagree with this piece of your post, much as I am known to fiddle around with an EaS. My little girl disagrees, too - by not using it.

--Europium

IMO, the origin of 'design' comes from Visualization. We all know that without visualizing a solution (or even a problem!), we cannot make a design out of it. So, it best if you encourage the child to visualize the things (especially those around us). It is best if you ask the child to (to begin with) narrate (in his/her own words) how 'something' is (How is a Wheel?? How does your door bell ring? etc). Then you can encourage the child to 'build' whatever he/she just told. The media or the form of the outcome could be anything. For example, it can even be modeling using clay (terracotta) or paper. It can be a drawing (with / without colors!). It can be using building-sets (as mentioned in one of the other replies). Another important point to be remembered is to question them (add a lot of 'curious' flavor to it) on what made them to design their solution in the way they did.

This will make a child not only 'copy' (in other words, model) something, and later 'build' their own version of it, but, also 'explain' (our technical documentation!!) about what and how they built it.

While 'build'ing something, they learn about all the difficulties faced while materializing their visualization. It makes them find alternate solutions/designs.

Well, kids need to be taken to a "biting zoo". This is much like a petting zoo, but all the animals bite...just kidding, but there is a serious aspect in my comment. the kids need to come to grips with realities such as gravity and ither dangerous aspects of the real world. This will teach them caution and rsk assessment. Overly protected kids are less able in the real world.

I agree. You need to consider the age of the child and expose him/her to suitable amounts of risks (again, 'suitable' is relative!!).

I definitely would not like my 2 yr kid to design a revolver!! I will let him play with one (toy) rather.

Indeed. Pain is the body's first line of defence. "Stop doing that or there will be some more serious damage ensuing". If one doesn't know pain, one doesn't know the limits.

The very first thing one should know if one is trained teacher. If not then try to get one who is trained and can teach well.

The second step is teaching purpose and techning resources resources. Generally teacher know what is to be tought and what it requires.

Teaching in unplanned way is like driving to no-where only to get lost and finally cry to return home.

I have to disagree! I taught physics and many other subjects professionally for 32 years, to students from around 12 to forty-something (jr Hi to university), but I only became a teacher AFTER I realized that I had enjoyed several non-professional experiences which were in effect teaching (camp counsellor, tutoring, etc., & just plain helping others who were having a harder time than I, or a hard time like me)

It has been my experience that engaging the kid's interest is the first step. For example, my wife makes all her own greetings cards. Our daughter (10) has started to make her own, and very quickly learned the importance of having even a basic design to work to. From there she has discovered that the design aspect brings more joy to her then the actual manufacture! Now, whenever the card making kit comes out, it's a collaborative effort. Already she wants to design other things, like clothing, and has started the learning process. The lad (15), however, shows no interest, in anything!

I agree to this.

In continuation, the second step would be to question their understanding in the subject.

I had a friend who was questioned by his father (without annoying my friend) about many things that we used to learn in our school. This put us in the shoe of the designer (or the creator of the world, for that matter) which helped us expand our understanding of the subject. I envied my friend because my father rarely asked any questions to me. I determined to follow my friend's father who asked questions very interestingly, at right time and in a right way. He is indeed a great teacher (he gave us the answers from within us!).

I continued this with a lot of children and they all enjoyed my questioning. A GOOD teacher and BAD teacher (or so, as they are called by students!!) differ in the time and manner of asking questions. A good teacher asks with an interest to expand the student's vision of the subject. Open-ended questions are more preferable.

In the context of this thread, I feel the children should be questioned about their designs which will make them think Bigger and find other/better solutions. It is also important to keep the interest alive for a very long time.

I tend to agree with most of what's been said...

But where is the enthusiasm? what is going to fire the imagination of a youngster?

I was lucky, I didn't have a talkative or supportive dad, but what I did find were some excellent teachers who could fire my imagination with ideas and concepts of the universe and what's around all of us... This led me to start asking those teachers questions, they would then become even more interesting to talk with but always there was at the end of a discussion the question that remains unanswered, the teachers didn't know but wanted to find out, I didn't know but like them I was fired up I wanted to know, I would dig through all sorts of technical books and magazines, Scientific American, New Scientist etc... looking for answers....

And so it continued through further education and middle age... I'm still looking for the answers, I'm finding out some things and learning from them, but always there are still the unanswered questions that keep my imagination and my mind searching for answers...

I think if it wasn't for those few teachers back then, I wonder what I would have done with my life?

Today's youngsters I'm appalled at by their total lack not just of knowledge - that can be learned!! But by their total lack of interest!

They ride a scooter delivering pizzas, but they haven't a clue how it works or what to do if it breaks down...

They've been brought up to have everything handed to them on a plate, and so when they need to think about something they are (mostly) incapable....

John < /rant off>

That's my point, the hard thing is to encourage their interest without turning them off, and of course kids at that age think that parents are the last people to talk too for any info of value!

Card making at home sure is great and so is learning and playing music and learning dance or painting, small garden caring and pet caring, organizing things to look or decoration, keeping clean and learn cooking, small environmental learning, fish pond and outdoor living to learn survival, swimming and games. These all keep child healthy and happy, physically and mentally.

The real aspect of design you want children to be interested in is the interaction of systems and mechanics. Physics and Chemistry are the sciences that look at how systems interact. Engineering is the application of those sciences. How do you utilize or compensate for system interactions to get something useful from it. The must learn to think about the various interactions and the scale of interaction, then assemble components to complete an object that will fulfill some function without failure. So, the best thing you can do is task them to design something, free hand is fine, and explain how it works, what components compose the object, and why and how the components interact. For small children the object might be something small and simple (and playful, e.g. a toy). You should expect they will not always be practical or realistic, but the idea is for them to put some thought into the project and how the componenets work and interact together. They design a toy weapon that fires a force weapon (or something) did they consider the recoil effects and how they effect the object, etc..

Why I moaned about the lack of interest amongst youngsters now and the way they are handed whatever they want on a plate is for that very reason!!

A go-cart was the thing to have in the early 60's, nothing was bought from a shop, it was down to us to think about where we could get materials from , what sort of materials, what type of design, etc... Pram wheels, what sort of steering etc...

A real back to basics engineering design... same with a lot of other things back then...

Its stood me in good stead, as now I can design something and before handing it to a specialist engineering company to make, I can look at it and think through just how much its going to cost to make, and wouldn't it be cheaper to use plastic instead of aluminium? perhaps drilling a hole here would save some machining operations there? Does it really need tapped holes or could it just have pop rivets to hold it in place....?

That sort of design that takes into account manufacturing costs, or design for manufacture, is the important bit today... the bit that maybe having to build a go-cart using what's in a rubbish tip and as few tools as possible... That's real 'nuts and bolts' engineering design, in my opinion..

John.

Another thing I saw a lot more of as a kid were electronics surplus stores and various other places where you could get parts. Really good parts. I am appalled every time I walk into a Radio Shaft store and see how they've cut back, little by little, on the basic parts needed to build a project - just to make room for more of the same tiresome, cheezy, half-the-quality-at-twice-the-price blister-pak'd crap. I really miss those big electronics stores where I could rummage through stuff to my heart's content without some pimply "May I help you find something?" drone hovering over me like some fly that won't go away. (Oh yes, you certainly can help, Mr. Drone! You can help by fetchin' that great big ol' flyswatter over there. Yeah that one! Now bring it here, please?)

I think one of the things I liked best about these places was when I didn't find what I was looking for, but found instead something totally unexpected, totally cool, and totally better! It was like Christmas in July! Most kids today will never have this experience, sorry to say. As a kid, it really fired my imagination to see all that cool stuff and the almost overwhelming potential of it, and then dream about what kind of amazing thing I was gonna build next...

--Europium

Europium, you got it in one!!!

I used to make special trips to London in my late teens, just to walk around the hotspots, like Soho, Tottenham Court road and of course Edgeware road...

That's where all the pokey little shops were that were overflowing with electronic bits and bobs, the shopkeepers were enthisiasts and just let me wander around picking up things and thinking WOW! what could I do with that?!!

A resistor was 20% tolerance at best, but if you looked sometimes you could be lucky and find a silver band 10% tolerance... Heaven forbid the feeling of finding a gold band 5% 'precision' carbon resistor!!

I still remember the excitement and spending maybe all day wandering round these places in London, before going home with a bag full of exciting 'new' things to experiment with...

Sadly I'm now listing most of them to sell on ebay!!

John.

I try to just add to the excitement of remembering the way we explored different parts and chose OUR way to design a new system...

I think, when we teach children to design something, we must allow them to choose whatever they want (atleast initially. Later, we can put some conditions / constraints) as the raw material / input to the design.

Even I remember the times I have spent in imagining the kind of Audio systems that could be designed with a simple Op-Amp and some other components.

I don't know about the kids these days... But I certainly have experiences of:

(1) Given one component / part, think of what all could be designed using it?
(2) Given one system, think of in-how-many-ways it could be designed?

This kind of expanding the horizons on both the problem-front and the solution-front is very very important.

Even in those days, me and my like-minded hobbyist friends were in the minority. But even the other kids in my school would look on with considerable curiosity and point at some part of my project, "What does that do?" "Oh, that's a xenon lamp that pumps this part with photons" (I was into lasers big time, and I had built a real ruby laser for my first science-fair project, which I subsequently took to State. The power supply seemed to weigh a ton. The ruby rod was unofficially 'borrowed' (and subsequently returned) by a friend's dad who worked at a big research base nearby). "What's a photon?" "Photons are those little things we've been studying in class that fly around and let me see your face, Gary. You know, light?" "Oh, yeah. Those. Do you think Mr. Garlough really believes light comes in chunks!? I think he's makin' that stuff up." "It's in the book, Gary." "Oh, yeah. Have you seen Debbie, that new 9th-grader in study hall? She is soooo hot!..."

I've been a Dad for some years now, and one time my daughter came home from school and announced that she was going to be 'Student of the Week' next week, and as SotW, she could bring her dad or mom into class to talk about what (kind of work) they do. So I accepted, and as I was a kid once, I remember how much I liked being able to hold things in my hands, and turn them this way and that to get a good look at them. I didn't like it when I was told to "Look, but don't touch!" (I touched it anyway.)

So I brought into her class some electronic gear like a 'scope, function generator, power supply, and a little circuit I prototyped and stuck in a clear 'Tupperware' container with the lid taped down and the leads coming out through holes in the side. The heart of the thing was a circular array of 198 yellow LEDs which I bought at a "ham fest" and converted into a high-speed strobe light. I also brought a table fan on whose three blades I had affixed self-adhesive stickers. The stickers featured simple, high-contrast geometric patterns so you could see that what looked like stopped blades in the light of the strobe weren't always the same blades. It was an illusion made possible by the movement of the blades in combination with the strobe light flashing at just the right times.

I was given 45 minutes to make my presentation, but her class liked it so much and had so many good questions that I was invited to stay the rest of the day, with the teacher's blessing, talking to the kids about my strobe light and science in general. I let them turn the frequency dial on the function generator (an old analog generator with a big knob that would let them easily do this), so that they could see how strobe rate made the fan blades do funny things. The part they liked the best was when I let them play with the 'step' mode where the frequency suddently changed from one step to the next. This made the fan appear to behave in the most bizarre fashion. They got a real kick out of it.

These kids were clearly starving for this stuff. It's not that kids are not interested, like a lot of people seem to think, or maybe that they don't have the capacity to appreciate this kind of stuff. They are and they do. Once the class was exposed to the technology, they pretty much ran the show after that. I think all it took was for someone to come along and, first of all, introduce them to it and, secondly, to show them what it does and then let them mess with it. It was pretty amazing to hear the sophistication of some of their questions. In their innocence, they asked questions that both revealed their thought process, but sometimes would also show me completely different ways of looking at things; ways I hadn't thought of before. These kids were not only my students for that afternoon, but they were also my teachers.

I believe as it stands now, all this latent curiosity, talent, and maybe even a little genius is, for the most part, just sitting idle. Our homogenized, pasteurized schools, culture, and society in general are carelessly letting all this potential die from neglect.

--Europium

Europium, what can I say....

My experiences have been identical.... I've been arm twisted into 'doing' a 30 minute talk at a local school and I epected moronic stares from the kids, so I made up some attention grabbing experiments, some purely destructive to show how a fuse blows and other things, but always someting that the kids could get their hands on and play with...

That went down very well, but maybe I'm not cut out for that...

However 10 years ago when a local university asked if I'd give a seminar to post graduates on measuring techniques on the production line, in particular none contact types... I didn't bother with too many demonstrations and initially I was only supposed to be there for 30 minutes with the professor looking on ... but the level of questions, the level of interest bowled me over!!!

I ended up sat on the lecture desk chatting about some of my experiences with people in industry equipment and the way stuff is made etc...

I was amazed at the level of questions, I had to keep on my feet all the time... the prof left after an hour but the students just kept bombarding me with questions...

After 3 hours!! the prof told me I had to leave now and the post grads took me into the students union bar and we kept going... it was soooo good to chat in detail with such inquisitive minds...

I've been asked and given several other lectures since then and I'm constantly love being put on the spot and having to think on my feet...

For anyone who hasn't tried it it is an experience I will never forget!!! for the right reasons....

John.

Europium,

As to the last paragraph in your post, all the wonders of the world exist in the minds and imaginations of these children. It is ours as adults to cultivate or condem. My wife and I as home schoolers get to personally view the "light bulb" turning on over our young son's heads when they "get it". I would trade it for nothing on earth.

Pepper

I agree with Europium and John

Perhaps, using lots of cheap store items one can build things that can give lots of idea for experimenting. Whether children learm from you or from environment it is going to help them.

There was a nice Glabal Program started by IEEE long ago. It is about weather monitoring and sharing information among children of the world at one place. IEEE helps children in linking with satellite and computers.

Perhaps picking up ideas of clean environment and awairness of the environmental concern may take them long way in making a good citizen.

You wrote: "Perhaps, using lots of cheap store items one can build things that can give lots of idea for experimenting."

With the exception of the xenon bulb and trigger transformer, my 8th-grade ruby laser cost me $40 in surplus parts. Thankfully I wasn't forced to buy the ruby rod!

You wrote: "Perhaps picking up ideas of clean environment and awairness of the environmental concern may take them long way in making a good citizen."

Attempting to instill these values in children may help to some degree, but "the long way in making a good citizen" derives from far more fundamental values. You've got to care about the environment before you can want to make it clean. I think perhaps you may wish instead to take your proposal to The Corporate World after first expunging its unbridled greed.

--Europium

The essential ingredient is an innate sense of curiosity. Lacking that, there is little hope of learning, much less becoming a worthy engineer.

I've seen few children who didn't have an innate sense of curiosity. Curiosity is such a common trait in children that I'm sure it's a standard feature. Otherwise there'd be little need to put latches on lower-cabinet doors and install covers on electrical outlets to keep curious fingers from getting shocked. For my part I feel that it's not so much that children don't have an innate sense of curiosity, but that it's that the child's environment and the prevailing attitudes of those around the child that so often have the effect of extinguishing this curiosity: the pressure to conform, for example.

--Europium

I recently toured Frank Lloyd Wright's house and studio in Chicago. We learned that his parents gave him a set of wooden geometric shapes when he was a boy. The use of geometric shapes is quite evident in his lifes work.

Science toys are wonderful things to give kids to stimulate their talents. I remember playing with an optics kit I had as a child. My interest in photography stems from this early exposure to optics.

I. M. Pei and Frank Lloyd Wright are two architects whose work I deeply admire. And although I wouldn't pay a wooden nickel for a piece of FLW's furniture - which strikes me as having a kind of brooding, Sixties avant-passé flair (but which also might find not a few well-heeled admirerers at Sotheby's) - I do especially enjoy his designs in glass.

--Europium

I never went to the toy department in general stores. I always headed for the electrical and plumbing department. I wanted to play with the Real Thing!

--Europium

Dear Europium

That you had an inner urge to do things is something that was driving you. Can you go little deeper to recall if your friends of same age were also involving in some activities and how they did differ from your's and why you or they did not follow the same things?

I think there is spectrum in people and then there is environment and also resources that makes people to do things. One person alone can motivate many and hence we also have to see if spmething special is done by some one and how.

Good to hear that what you felt in your childhood.

I looked for Ghosts when I was 5-10 year and was always keep to meet one and could never see one. This made me not to trust in something that is told and to look for truth and feel it. I decided to look beyond my village, city and state and moved and moved to where I am today and still moving in search of some useful truth. I think now that one life falls short of time for this. When you all say something you feel and is a valid point of logic makes me feel much better and closer to what I am searching. Perhaps a child will feel the same way, some happiness in finding what he/she feels is to be known and has value for one.

Hi

Teaching kids in high technology from start is a very good idea. It is sure not very difficult.

I have some examples here that may help in understanding the problem and solution.

Here is an spectrum of children of scientists and engineers who were in nuclear research center in India.

I have seen a 5-16 year class where each student was allowed to show and demo their developments in exhibitions and they all took serious interest in education and research and became good educated citizens of the world. My two daughters and a son were part of them and my daughter is the youngest supper specialist Doctor in UK. Other daughter is an architect engineer and son electronics engineer. There were 3000 numbers of them in the school and almost all of them reached the high level in their life now. These students were permitted to visit top labs in the country to do research in their early childhood when they were only 15.

I now have another spectrum of people that is from totally different background where parents have no idea of the education and only finance the education and pay high fee some how. See what their sons and daughter have become.

I am right now having a plan to educate not so young but already grown ups 17-19 age group. These are from an engineering education class.

I found many serious problems here

1. Their education is not cheap yet 80% pay the fee but do not attend any class. There are 60 registered candidates in a class.

2. Lecturers are capable to teach theory and numeric engineering to the the 20% who some how make available in the class but unable to teach practicals properly.

3. There are almost 150 instruments available for learning but no one to teach the actual purpose of the experiment

4. I started educating the Lecturers and now they have learnt to use and demo almost 50 instruments in the last 50 days of training.

5. After nabbing few students and giving them special training in practicals, they are now taking serious interest. However, they find only me who can realy explain the things in innovative way as trained lecturers can't invent ideas and teach in a very limited way. They are almost nill in ideas.

6. I am now planning to arrange a robotc show to get the students in the show and let them watch the technology in real show. I believe few of them will learn after seeing things in action.

I believe that papernts and teachers have a lots of responsibility in early age when child is just in tender stage of mental growth. You can make them good, you can make them useless and you can make them worst for the entire life.

I spent nearly 30 years of my life with my children to give them value as my three childern were planned with a gap of 7 years. I feel parents should give lots of time to theit kids and perhaps minimum 10 years devoted life, friendship, teaching, playing together to be happy, full of feelings is needed. If that is not possible and one has no time for children then one should not have children at all as this is a serious responsibility.

This is typical in third world countries (and India still has aspects of this as well as first clas facilities).

I would say the medical and dental system in India is closets to being world standard due to the way it was set up under british occupation with doctors and Dentists trained to UK standards and an infrastructure of hospitals, clinics and associated medical training facilities.

Engineering did not do as well, It was often a large shipment of equipment being suddenly dropped into a place with no-one there with any knowledge of hoiw to use and set up the machines.

Here we have the professors and they have a cadre of their graduate students who are required to act as first, second, third and fourth year tutorial and lab instructors, This depth os what must be setup and it will take about 10 years to optimize under a sustained guiding hand, although it can be implemented tomorrow AM with enough bodies it will still take a more or less 10 years to build up a cohesive organization that will endure and is not dependent on a few personalities.