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Laser Beam

01/20/2009 10:30 AM

Hi Does any body know how we can build laser saw kind of thing to cut the trees having height around 100 feet or more.or which are at hill tops where hard to reach so we can use that saw to cut the tree from distance.

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#1

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 10:39 AM

Why would you want to cut trees you cannot get to? No point in cutting them down if the wood cannot be harvested.

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#25
In reply to #1

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 1:12 PM

That's a rather cavalier attitude toward your dance partners, don't you think?

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#2

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 12:12 PM

I do not think you fully understand how a laser cuts . . . . .do you.

I suggest you google it and read up on the subject first

.

phoenix911

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 12:24 PM

sort of sounds like a home work question

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 12:28 PM

oh,,,,,in that case.....true

or if its multiple choice pick (c).

;)

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#5

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 12:49 PM

Aw, c'mon guys

Could be planning to trim for power lines

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 1:46 PM

I can just imagine trimming trees during the hot summer when a mouse fart will ignite a forest fire, best forget using a laser to trim trees

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 2:29 PM

when a mouse fart will ignite a forest

oh great, now we're talking about greenhouse gases

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 9:48 PM

Ah yes a major contributor to global warming, mouse flatulence, horrable things worse than cows

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#27
In reply to #8

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 1:23 PM

I wouldn't be too sure about the mice being a problem. Oz has lots of cows which some have blamed as a major contributor to global warming. Which hemisphere has that big ozone hole over its pole? The Southern Hemisphere! Who has the most vermin? Everybody else!

Personally, I think they should capture that methane and use it to supplement fossil fuels. Think thousands of square km covered by Aussie cows with hoses stuck up their butts and every so often a gas station selling alternative fuel. BP, move over!

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#18
In reply to #6

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 9:33 AM

Probably 10 years ago, a mate of mine at uni was doing work for LaserDyne on the Gold Coast in Australia, they were developing a truck-mounted laser for the National Parks Service (aka Forrestry Department). The laser was being used to start spot fires for controlled back-burning, a common practice in bushfire threat areas. Now instead of sending guys in with kero drips and having someone in the path of the fire; or dropping fire-bombs from a helicopter and not having accurate control; they can instead park the truck on a near-by hill and start small fires exactly where they need them.

So no, I don't think it will work well as a cutting tool.... unless of course you do it while it is raining to prevent ground fires! You will of course risk the laser refracting off some rain drops and killing some nearby innocents, but other than that..... :-D

----------------------
Before anyone replies - yes, I know the laser will anialate the rain drops, not refract off them.

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#9

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 11:12 PM

I guess Dr.evil wants another "alen parsons project"

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 11:21 PM

Good tunes that.

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#10

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 11:20 PM

You folks have no imagination nor sympathy. Clearly, There are trees blocking this posters otherwise lovely view which he cannot legally get to to cut. so a force at a distance is one solution.

If any of you come up with this, I am warning you that i already have a patent pending for a surface to air cheese slicer that works on this principle, which I developed in case the KrisDel(tm) flying cheese becomes a popular hit in my parts.

You have been warned!

milo

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#24
In reply to #10

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 1:07 PM

You've been scooped, my friend. I have a patent pending on a boomerang light saber that does just that. Of course you have to be real careful how you catch it, as it does tend to warm what remains of your fingers. Care for some Sith gouda?

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#12

Re: Laser Beam

01/20/2009 11:41 PM

Hello

Why think of cutting the trees. Think of planting more.

May be your purpose will be cut the braches which come in the way of power lines. But once the tool is developed, we humen are so stupid that many will use it to destroy the forests

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#13

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 12:03 AM

Ok, no ones mentioned it yet, but why don't you consider using one of the saws that you can dangle from a helicopter (you know, like in the James Bond movie. Yes its real). Works very well.

Yes I have considered laser saws previously, no it ain't a good idea.

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 12:46 AM
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#26
In reply to #15

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 1:21 PM

YouTube link works.

Is it wrong to secretly want one of them? Don't have a purpose, or even a large hedge out the front of the house, but part of me just wants to put one of them in my toolbox....

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#29
In reply to #26

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 9:16 PM

always handy to use to cut the big oak tree in front of the boss's house

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#31
In reply to #15

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 9:39 PM

Holy moly! That thing was nuts! Absolutely nuts I tell ya!

But then, well then I saw this.................here

(Sorry if you can't see this Epke, this is another a good one!)

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 9:49 PM

i will check it at home then

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#35
In reply to #31

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 7:13 AM

Holy S$@% that guy has great balance and neck muscles.

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#14

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 12:08 AM

Contact the US department of defence. Word is they have a few prototypes left over from the "Star Wars" anti satelite program that got canned.

I'm sure they would cash them in so they can spend the mony on some other scheme.

BTW, does this link to the thread on banning lasers because of pilots being targeted?

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#16

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 6:17 AM

Maybe Uncle Sam will let you borrow this for an afternoon:

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 8:18 AM

Kind of extreme for hunting mice, I hope the targeting system is better than the patriot used for hunting skuds.

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#28
In reply to #16

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 1:30 PM

I can just imagine a target which is protected by arrays of retro-reflectors (heck, reflective tape for those on the cheap). Plane zaps target, target blinds plane.

Oops!

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#19

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 10:44 AM

Several issues beyond the potential for fire:

  • Choosing the right wavelength. Lasers emit different wavelengths of light depending on their composition. A CO2 laser at 10.6 microns is well suited for cutting wood. However commercial high power CO2 lasers are not efficient, small or robust enough to be deployed on a mobile platform.
  • Power density. Lasers work by focusing their energy onto a small spot. This increases the power density allowing it to cut through material. The cutting is done at a fixed distance from the focusing optics to keep the focal point on the material. The laser cutting operation can be viewed more like a drill bit than a saw. The cutting occurs at the tip and not along the length. Cutting 100' away from the optics presents a real challenge. You need a very small narrow beam to keep the power density high. The laser beam has a divergence characteristic that causes it to spread over distance. Other laser technologies are more efficient and have lower beam divergence but are not absorbed as readily by wood. A fiber based YAG laser for example has low beam divergence but is not as readily absorbed by wood materials.
  • Safety. Beyond the potential for fire there is concern for the safety of people and wildlife in the immediate area. YAG requires special glasses to protect the eyes as the light is not absorbed by the cornea but is focused on the retina! CO2 can burn the cornea. All these lasers will burn flesh. There could be objects in the trees that may reflect the laser or disperse the light creating hazardous conditions.

So I would say no laser is really suitable for this application. Mechanical cutting processes are your best bet.

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#20

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 11:07 AM

Perhaps not a "field laser", but you'll find primacord to be very useful!

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 12:20 PM

Yes it is, and if wrapped correctly the tree is ready for the splitter.

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#21

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 11:59 AM

I think more details are needed from the poster...(i.e. where is he and where specifically does he want to cut trees?)

Hmmm....could be an evil scientist in the making...trees could be code for people...hills might actually be Hills Apartment Complex or such...

I see many posts that ask for technological data that could be used for evil...and so many are willing to help without asking questions....

Eeee Heeee heeee heee heeee !!!

(Good thing the government monitors this site dedicatedly)

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#23

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 1:02 PM

All this talk of lasers, primacord(detcord?) all great ideas, but just use the Force..or just add a few floors to your structure to get above the tree tops, firelookout type stuff

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#37
In reply to #23

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 8:31 AM

Use the Force?! Hey, are you suggesting he should employ me as a lumberjack?!

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#30

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 9:34 PM

How about a hundred foot wide magnifying glass?

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#33
In reply to #30

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 10:11 PM

Great way to burn ants for a distance, not that I would ever do such a thing, or did in my youth, no not me.

Cows with hoses up their butts just seems wrong somehow, I can just hear greenpeace now, oooh that would be just nasty. I wouner where I can get a few thousand feet of hoes?

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Laser Beam

01/21/2009 10:18 PM

lets see.......what would you do with 500 hoes..........sounds expensive..........

cripes, another bad joke

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#38
In reply to #34

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 8:48 AM

Don't you just hate dyslexic fingers, it does sound expensive doesn't it...

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#61
In reply to #34

Re: Laser Beam

01/23/2009 3:52 AM

But much less than 500 Wives

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#63
In reply to #34

Re: Laser Beam

01/23/2009 9:30 AM

Would that be enough for just over 166 Christmases?

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#36

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 7:58 AM

Unlike most of the others, I don't think it is impossible; however, I agree that the equipment would need to be very large, so even a saw on the end of a tethered drone would probably be more practical.
In order to cut the wood without setting fire to it, you need a narrow beam at the point of cut.
I'm not certain that conventional low-power focusing methods would work, as the width of the beam at the waist is dependent on the focusing angle at a distance. So, for a CO2 laser, a 200-um beam would require an angle of at least 1.5-degrees, and at 200' (you couldn't really cut vertically, could you?) you would need a mirror diameter of about 5'. You would need to continually adjust the focus quite accurately to match the distance, and there would be some (I don't know how much) aberration (=unrecoverable defocussing) due to variations in air density.
The (laser) alternative would be to use the "self-focusing" effect. This could be achieved (without the average power becoming problematic) by using a short-pulse system. Hideously uneconomic for the application, and you would need to find a way to prevent it piercing low-flying aircraft - but it is theoretically possible

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#39
In reply to #36

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 9:25 AM

I don't think it is impossible;

when cutting all what the laser does is supply the heat, material is removed by plasma flow.....i.e. compressed gas.

but it is theoretically possible

maybe we should keep things practical, I'm just reflecting how a CNC laser would work

phoenix911

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#41
In reply to #39

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 10:58 AM

The gas flow is to keep the cut clean. That makes for both a better-quality and more rapid cutting. But it is not essential. Equally, as you are cutting from an angle from below, collapse across such a narrow gap would mean you would often have to cut out a broad wedge if you are to avoid cutting the same section a very large number of times.

However, I only wrote this as a counter to the "not with today's technology" argument. As I said: I don't consider it to be either economic, nor to be practical - even if the purely financial costs of the necessary equipment and supporting truck became acceptable.

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#42
In reply to #36

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 11:22 AM

CO2 lasers are less common than IR laser-diode arrays for cutting and heat-treating applications. Diode arrays are far more compact than CO2 lasers, have comparable quantum efficiencies (around 60%), require less maintenance, are longer-lived and are not subject to electrode sputtering which tends to coat the interior of the laser cavity - particularly the mirrors/brewster windows. Output power ranges from tens of watts (for very small cutters) to kilowatt-range lasers used for heavy cutting and heat-treating. The diode array shown below is used to heat-treat metal surfaces and therefore lacks the focussing optics required for cutting.

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#43
In reply to #42

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 12:01 PM

The reason I proposed CO2 as a theoretical demonstrator was the known possibility of self-focussing - which I believe would be even more difficult given the peak-power-density limits of diode lasers (to say nothing of CO2 being at an appropriate wavelength for interaction)

Also, that I'm ignorant in too many areas, such as:
Are these laser cutters single-mode output (I know it is possible, but is it commercial?).
I'm too out of date on material quality - last time I was involved high-power diode lasers were limited to about 1000 hours - very similar to electrically pumped CO2 (which I never actually used...)
And, if using linear optics, I feared the shorter wavelengths would be more prone to defocussing over 100+ feet of air.

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#40

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 9:56 AM

Hi All

Thank you very much for taking time to reply my poster. Only rackerman and Physicits looks sincer user of this site who send their good comments. Thanks again.

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#44
In reply to #40

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 2:17 PM

we are all sincere. after you have been here a while you will get sort of, well cynical I guess, about the sincerity of the poster. And, the nature of your question allows for some good fun.

Am glad you were able to sort out enough hog-wash form our replies to find something useful.

Good luck

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 2:27 PM

I think Mark should include a Hog-Wash button worth -10 GA points. I bet some of us could rack up some pretty big numbers in short order!

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#48
In reply to #45

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 4:10 PM

What a great idea, or maybe a class clown button, two new levels of recognition for posting when we should be working

Both posting awards would also make for great t-shirts, I would wear on with pride.

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#49
In reply to #48

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 5:32 PM

How's about a built-in WiFi link and flexible OLEDs on both sides of the tee so that the score is continually updated? Shall I alert ThinkGeek of the impending blockbuster?

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#51
In reply to #49

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 5:45 PM

wonderful idea, but then everyone would want one and the forum would degrade into total sillyness, imagine humor hiding in almost every answer

Loads of problems could be created if a built-in thought processor was included, si-fi granted, but think of the fun watching others getting into trouble. I can just see the board meetings with people's true thoughts being broadcast across the front of a t-shirt or when glancing at a pleasantly fronted young lady on the street.

The fun could be endless

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#53
In reply to #51

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 5:58 PM

Sweet. When do we start?

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 6:36 PM

As soon as we can get a Defense Department grant to study the thought electrical impulse challenge. Since all thought is just electrical impulses, and as such can be measured, translating should not be a great problem. Now how do we get a grant?

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 9:47 PM

Hey - here are 2 grants!

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#46
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Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 2:47 PM

Don't think of us as "dissing" your idea or suggesting it is a bad idea; think of us as finding potential problems so you can address them before investing R&D time and fund$. That is one of the big concepts that make forums so powerful - LATERAL THINKING. Many points of view give you a much clearer picture of your project and the issues that may be involved.

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#47
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Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 3:06 PM

What's that proverb?

"By wisdom a house is built, and by understanding it is established; and by knowledge the rooms are filled with all precious and pleasant riches. A wise man is strong, and a man of knowledge increases power. For by wise guidance you will wage war, and in abundance of counselors there is victory. Wisdom is too exalted for a fool, he does not open his mouth in the gate."

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#50
In reply to #44

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 5:35 PM

The car wash down the street is a laser car wash, and I saw a billboard (sign for you Across the pond chaps) for laser liposuction; so why not a laser Hog-wash?

milo

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#52
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Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 5:56 PM
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#56
In reply to #52

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 9:49 PM

the fact you found that disturbs me...not in a bad way....just disturbs me.

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 10:40 PM

So you're...pleasantly disturbed? Or is it more a kind of ambivalent sort of disturbed? <donning white coat and clipboard> Tell me more about your family...

(psst: I keep telling you this place is some kind of asylum but you won't listen!)

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#58
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Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 10:46 PM

(psst: I keep telling you this place is some kind of asylum but you won't listen!)

I'm having trouble distinguishing the voices

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#59
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Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 10:50 PM

I can hear them too. Eight out of ten are saying, "Don't shoot!"

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#66
In reply to #57

Re: Laser Beam

01/23/2009 6:13 PM

yes it is too, and the line between brilliance and total insanity is so so thin.

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#60

Re: Laser Beam

01/22/2009 11:17 PM

My answer was also sincere, instead of using a laser far away (which needs a huge amount off energy maybe combining it with the chainsaw helicopter (laser unit instead of saw) easiest would be just a load cable with a energy feeding cable (plasma electricity) the laser device would clamp on the tree cuts it at an angle (maybe with a piston that nudges it in the proper direction) so it falls away from feeding cable

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#62
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Re: Laser Beam

01/23/2009 8:11 AM

How are we going to tote all that E around in a helicopter?

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#64
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Re: Laser Beam

01/23/2009 9:44 AM
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#65
In reply to #64

Re: Laser Beam

01/23/2009 5:28 PM

Could you reduce the eat sink if it hung under the helicopter?

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#67
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Re: Laser Beam

01/23/2009 8:54 PM
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#68
In reply to #64

Re: Laser Beam

01/23/2009 8:58 PM

If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits eighty-eight miles per hour... you're gonna see some serious shit.

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#69
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Re: Laser Beam

01/25/2009 7:59 PM

Use a turbine to generate electricity?

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#70

Re: Laser Beam

01/26/2009 11:24 PM

exxman23 Just doesn't sound like a logging application to me. Loggers are having major cash flow problems now with the housing situation like it is and these things just aren't cheap.The price for the gold on the mirrors would probly pay for a nice tree cutter. The power consumption, maintenance issues and need for a clean environment when servicing just doesn't fit a loggers environment or electro-mechanical aptitude. Sounds more militaristic so who's side is this intended for. I've installed many CO2 lasers for manufacturing and they were finicky enough in that environment, I just can't grasp trying to peak one out in the deep, dark, hilly, damp wilds for long range logging. I don't know that you could transport something like this off road without flexing the resonator at lest a little, a thousands if an inch would change everything to the point of failure. By all means this is possible but its just not practical. J.Conway

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#71
In reply to #70

Re: Laser Beam

01/27/2009 12:46 AM

Jerrell your bing nice,

...a thousands if an inch would change everything to the point of failure.

1/10th the wave length you are outputting difference between the mirrors will cause a loss of coherence. ( for non Laser people It will quit lasing)

You could probably do it with a gas jet Laser with opposing exhausts but why? The focus would need to be long and due to the heating of the air the kerf would be wide. Something large enough to cut a 24 inch tree in even a few seconds would cut the rocks behind it and vaporise all organics. Not to mention fire watch, afterwards, for a month.

And your right it would cost more than the helicopter, logging trucks, derrick, and expenses of a normal operation. I haven't played with light for some time but a guess would be much more.

Brad

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