Generating Electricity from Waste Wood

I don't know if there is one made to suit your needs but if there isn't that just becomes an opportunity to make one. If you understand how it works and how to build one...there you go.

Good luck.

if I knew that I wouldn't be asking here :-)

Yeah JRaef,

I gotta agree with you on that. It kinda makes you wonder if a lot of those regulations weren't made to benefit the powers that be (the local power companies).

GA

Thats the way to do it!!! He will make some good easy money at the same time, or heat his own house (and a few more!) for free!!!

Hi V.I. Abraham,

You need to keep the carbon cycle in mind...

Trees grow - taking in carbon. Wood burns, releasing carbon.

In this process the net amount of atmospheric carbon does not change.

The CO2 problem is created by coal, gas and oil - which was once atmospheric carbon but is now sequestered carbon (until we burn it).

The mill is very likely powered by a coal-fired station (unless it is in a nuclear, wind or hydro area). If so it will be far more environmentally friendly to burn the waste for power on site than to transmit electricity generated from coal from some distant station.

I do agree that for photosynthesis trees need CO2. Nature provides sufficient co2 required for normal carbon cycle.But excess of CO2 is harmful . Burning of wood is not a nature's rule. Please read the link below.

http://quake.usgs.gov/prepare/factsheets/CO2/index.html

http://www.co2science.org/articles/V7/N20/B2.php

Dead right!!!

GA 4 that!

Actually the burning of wood is as natural as is your getting up in the morning. We the intelligent animals have determined that it is harmful to the atmosphere to burn anything, but nature trumps any of our common sense ideas about the burning of wood lots to wholesale forest fires when ever a natural fire is started by lightening or other natural causes. We the people interfere with these natural fires and pay for it in kind with the losses of homes and profitable harvesting of the lumber resource. Here in Florida we have learned that we simply must conduct regular burning of the low bush brush in order to protect the trees. It is just getting back to the natural way, causes smoke inconvenience for just a little while but rejuvenates the forest as a whole.

The blog present should look at constructing a gasifier to power up a standby generator, as was a recent blog here on CR 4.

TooMuchFun

You need to re-educate yourself with regard to burning wood or wood chip/pellet products as against fossil fuels. Wood burning just puts back the CO2 that the tree used to grow.....nothing more, nothing less.......

Even letting the wood just rot away PRODUCES THE SAME AMOUNTS OF CO2 AS BURNING DOES!!!!!

Wood is considered to be CO2 neutral in comparison with fossil fuels....

Lets get one thing straight here!

Fire's part of nature and ignition does occur in nature even through natural causes.

Now, if you burn wood it surely cannot cause such a green house effect as burning other man made wastes.

I've been reading wikipedia and other sites since this morning to clarify these issues, but even wiki...says that methane is a greater contributor to green house effect than CO2.

I think we need more efficient burners, heaters and what have you but, if pellets are as pure and as free from artificial additives, as described, than I am happy to use it or any wood for that matter.

Burning wood, which in turn emits CO2, is perfectly natural and I do not think that would bring the global ecology down.

There are lot more serious issues here, humans for instance, there's too many of us and it seems medical science is helping to further multiply 14 folds even, as the latest figures in the US show, after that woman gave birth to her octuplets on top of what she already have.

In Germany, the pellets are bonded using a small percentage of flour & water. I forget which flour exactly (Rye I believe), but if someone needs to know, I can research.....

I have read somewhere that in the USA, fossil fuel products are added to bond the pellets!!!

All I can say that if true, that is apalling!! But even then Pellets are a good way to heat and they are carbon neutral in Germany and almost in the USA.....

I heat my house 100% with pellets. I have a wood backup if needed.

"7. Do you use glue or additives to make the pellets?
We do not use any type of glue or additives in the process, except for a very small percentage of soybean oil to enhance the efficiency of our pellet equipment."

I get my pellets from New England Pellet Co, right by in New Hampshire:

http://www.pelletheat.com/

Andy,

Have you ever seen or opperated a pellet mill? I'm guessing you haven't.

The mill I am familliar with and have opperated needs nothing else added but the sawdust. The pelletizing process creates just enough pressure and heat to bond the pellets with the natural wood resin.

I have heard of Presto-logs (basicly extra large pellets) having other ingredients added to produce either hotter or longer burning results but I am not intimately familliar with that process.

Please don't denigrate until you investigate.

It was actually while doing some research in the USA that I found that some USA manufacturers use fossil oil products to "glue" their pellets together. I am sure that not all of them do it.....but I was appalled.

The problems arise particularly with hardwood (makes the best pellets) sawdust that has little or no moisture left, which is why the law here only allows the usage of rye flour......

Softwood sawdust will have more resin, but the pellets burn less efficiently......they are cheaper here to buy too.....

Low moisture content improves burning too.....

Burning wood is carbon nutral.

I have already discussed this with numerous other people. The carbon that the wood emits is just what they pulled in over the course of their life times. That is why it is classed as a renewable resource. Not a Fossil Fuel.

The notion that burning it creates more co2 than just letting it rot would be funny if these people did not have so many deluded partners.

Give the wood waste to me and let me show you how to make a wood substitute product that pours like concrete but works like wood--minus the rot issues , warp issues,bug issues,mold and fungus host issues,fire issues, etc etc,

This product utilizes all of the waste and can be poured into a mold or extruded

Dear Tesla

Is your wood based product an invention of your own or simply a product which is marketed in USA ?

Reason I ask is that there is an Australian product with a patented cement and additives mixture which can produce concrete blocks ( of course on which nails can be hammered in ) and I am wondering whether yours differs and what are its limitations. As well where it can be purchased if it is produced by others. Thanks for the answers,

Labor Omnia Vincit

NB The best use of saw dust I have seen ( when it is used as a fuel ) is by owners of coal fired plant using coal fines. These are then mixed with the sawdust and burnt through a nozzle under air-pressure into the fire box

I hate to say this, but your name detracts from the seriousness of your comments....

A less controversial name might influence your business (here at least!) in a positive way.

I personally admire Tesla for his work in many areas, but to my mind, he was mislead sadly in to what was practical in many of those areas.......and wasted the possible recognition that he might have had if he had been a little more "practical" in some areas.

He was still a great man of science........if one overlooks the errors.....

Andy,

I hate to be the one to point this out for you but your comments show you need to delve into the history a little deeper.

When I say the Nikola Tesla was right I refer to a lot of things. One of those things is the fact that he was the inventor of radio. This was upheld by no less than the supreme court of the United States. Look it up.

To say that he was wrong about a few things so should be ignored is just silly.

Everyone is wrong about something. Take for example your comments. Even though you are wrong does not mean you might be a very amazing person in other areas.

What we do wth wood and other cellulose waste is to first mineralize them and then mix them with ceramic cement. This creates a wood composite product that has several of the good properties of the original wood but also has some of the good properties of concrete.

All of this even though I think highly of Nikola Tesla--go figure

teslastones@gmail.com

" I also know for what most people remember him for......you seem not to."

Thank you for the compliment.

...and you must live with that, not me.

I am very pleased to live with the fact that I can have my own opinion about something --even at the risk of being called a charlaton by someone who looks very much like a beagle.

I would submit that having your picture alongside your name helps others adjudicate the validity of your opinion.

I am not "against" Tesla per se, but a name of "Tesla-was-right" (I believe thats what was used!) smacks of charlatanism.....to me at least! I was only trying to point out that some of us would ever buy from such a named person.......

The above are your words from your response to #14

I said the beagle thing just to draw you out. Thanks for not disappointing me.

I have read the history and have decided for myself that I find a lot to admire about Mr. Tesla. You have a differing opinion. Fine.

Although I have a policy of not diving into the shallow end of the gene pool searching for deep meaning, by my standing up to your borish, nazi comments I have forced you to repaet several times my ID and thus acknowlege the point of my ID. Tesla-was-right. It is not tesla-was-right -about -everything.

The epitome of safety is a profound thought in the mind of a fool. Sorry to have roused you from your embraced ignorance.

"by my standing up to your borish, nazi comments I have forced you to repaet several times my ID and thus acknowlege the point of my ID. Tesla-was-right. It is not tesla-was-right -about -everything."

I didn't read this bit yesterday but it appears that you are not a nice person when it comes to put your thoughts across, are you?

Is this how you intend to keep up your argument at this forum? If is it then you are a one hell of a miserable soul, if you have one.

I too say that Nicola Tesla was a man of high ideas but he was a highly fallible one also so much so that he simply over expanded on his R&Ds that in the end made him penniless as opposed to his contemporaries, like Edison; who once replied to Tesla's remark 'how his ideas come through inspirations' and Edison said 'my ideas are only 5% inspirations and 95% perspirations'.

The main reason why Tesla stole into the hearts of Americans because he lit up the country with AC power that's transferable by transformer, and not by his wireless Tesla-Coil as he wished.

For this I have to tell you, and perhaps for many on the other side of the pond, that the AC power was already in use and the AC transformer as a means to either step it up or down in Central-Europe, right where Tesla studied and worked, even before he went to America. The first AC transformer called (Z,B,D) was also invented right where the first AC electricity power was devised and tested (it's just logical).

By now, this also should help you to clear up the myth about why you have 60Hz on your side as opposed to 50Hz that we have on this side.

Basically, Tesla took over to you the AC power concept that was far more superior at the time to Edison's DC power supply and Tesla realised it for you that helped you could keep up with the rapid technological changes at the time (this has also made Tesla for a short time reach until he started on his own ideas which financially pulled him down).

Further, just because Andy does not agree with you it should not make you to call him a nazi. It was Hitler who tried to give the German people that image through his ruthless methods and guess what - Hitler was an Austrian - who was a half Jew himself.

These days everybody knows they are more Nazis themselves than just about anybody!

Bravo!

About what?

You can have the wood waste if you will provide the storage container here and the shipping.

Where are you located?

Our facillity is in South-West Missouri.

Reply back if you are serious.

I SUGGEST THAT YOU LOOK AT ANOTHER BLOG THAT IS BEING EXAMINED THOROUGHLY AT THIS TIME REGARDING WOOD GASIFICATION WHERE BY THE WOOD IS PARTIALLY BURNED AND PRODUCES A BURNABLE GAS THAT IS RECOVERED, IS FED INTO AN ICE AND THEREBY PROVIDES SUITABLE FUEL FOR THE PRODUCTION OF HORSE POWER. THIS ENERGY CAN THEN BE USED TO POWER UP YOUR OWN ELECTRICITY NEEDS. YOU MIGHT NEED TO FIND EVEN MORE SOURCES THAN YOUR OWN WASTE TO GET COMPLETELY OFF THE GRID.

DON'T GRIPE AT THOSE WHO WISH TO OFFER GOOD ADVICE, TAKE A LOOK, MAYBE YOU WILL GET A RAISE OR AT LEAST INCREASE YOUR INCOME BY USING YOUR OWN WASTE.

TMF

Did you look at where my comment 51 was in reply to?

I was not griping. Just merly answering HIS request that I give him the waste. That would be one way to solve my problem of the waste. If he is not serious then he should not answer flippantly to "give me the watse".

As far as the Gasification, as I replied to several others in this ---

Where does one buy it and the generator?

I am serious. I said "give it to me" half seriously.

The process I do can accomodate the need to pay some for the filler if it is what we are needing and if the transportation is not too large of an issue.

We are in NW AR. --not far from you.

Contact me at teslastones@gmail.com

Google "Wood waste boiler" that will give you 4900 articles, the next step after you get a boiler is to select a steam turbine and generator.

Back in the late 1980's we had a 250 kW unit at a brewery in Philadelphia where they burned scrap pallets, cardboard, etc. but did not have enough scrap to keep the boiler running continuous which is undesireable, a boiler and a steam turbine needs a good water system to prevent build-up resulting in loss of heat transfer or lots of maintenance.

Can you use the steam to heat your facilities or in process to dry the wood or start a greenhouse or build a jail or school to use the heat where the steam is used and condensed and returned for treatment and back into the boiler ? That can be a source of revenue and is much less expensive then a steam turbine including the maintenance.

I have a cogeneration directory of projects and "biomass" is the category for wood burners.

The wood itself is best for burning after about 1-1/2 years of drying, you will need to compact the pile or as some companies do is to chip it and put the chips or sawdust into a silo. Sawdust is very combustible as you know and can explode under the right conditions.

Other companies that would be doing this would be wood furniture makers.

I agree with posting #2 what he said.

How long do you think this timber business of yours can go for? Is it definitely infinitive or as long as there's work coming in?

I am wondering because isn't timber cutting nd supply as a business could slow or even come to a halt at some stage then you could have no more scrap wood either?

I think too, you'd better sell the scrap, processed or unprocessed even, that way you make more money out of it with less effort and hassle while it lasts.

Pallets will always be around as long as the shipping industry is still shipping on trucks that are loaded by forklifts (and the earth can still support plant growth i.e. trees).

As for our business in particular, nothing is forever, but we have been here for over 22 years and done nothing but improve and grow.

As for selling the scrap, you try and find a buyer in our part of the country and i will overload them with scrap. You can find it by the truck load behind any number of the HUNDREDS of saw mills and wood working shops around the Ozark region.

Hi Pallets,

Sounds like a terrific idea - I've been thinking along the same lines for a farm, but we're not quite large enough to justify it (economically or in the amount of biomass we have available).

However in my research I came across these people:

http://www.valeswood.com/pdf/BiomassGenerators.pdf

They look to have pretty much what you're after. They are based in the UK, but on their site they say they have installations in the US, so hopefully this will be useful to you.

Good luck - and please keep us informed - I'd love to hear if you get it working (I'm also in a forestry area with lots of mills around - I'll keep an ear out to see if anyone here has an on-site generator from waste wood).

Robert

Thanks for the web site.

This is what I was looking for!!!!!!!!

It could be done with a small PLASMA GASIFICATION unit (google it to read many articles about these). These can burn almost anything, and yield excess electricity to sell back to the grid, or to use as you see fit. Polution is nearly zero!

Where would one find such a unit AND the generator to get started? I am a wood industry person, not an electrical engineer.

Not trying to be rude, but have already spent countless hour on google to no avail. That is why I am asking here. I would not have wasted every ones time if it was as simple as typing in a few search words.

Also, Japan has two very large Plasma Gasification systems running now.

Regards,

Dan Woodward

First:

Wood is 55% efficient as a fuel, averaging 20 million btu/cord. It gives off medium smoke and medium spark. That would be 5.8 kw/hr if we did not loose any efficiency in the mechanical conversion of fire to electrical which would be a steam turbine generator.

Meaning it would emit about 100% more CO2 than oil. Plus you would have to install a scrubber to clean the particulate out of the exhausted air down to 98% to meet pollution regulations. You would also have to make an application to the "jurisdiction having authority" to produce electrical energy and put it inline with your electrical power grid.

Generally, you need a large amount of heat as a byproduct in your manufacturing to be financially effective to produce co-generation, supplemental energy, or peak shaving. I think the only way you could build and use it would be for emergency generation and even that may not be financially viable.

I think that Old Goat and others need to consider the existing wood chip, ag waste and other burning power plants across the country.

An example would be the Stratton, Maine 35MW wood chip burner, the plant gets a semi-trailerload of wood chips every 15 minutes 24-7 to keep producing, the plant is "zero discharge". I worked in scheduling the staffing and start-up. There are a couple more plants like this in Maine. The semi-tractor and trailer are tipped on a platform as a unit and the wood chips dumped. Stratton, Maine is a ski resort area and pristine.

There is an ag waste burner that burns the field scrap in the Imperial Valley of Southern California.

There is a waste burner in Gilroy, California that if I remember right burns the shell waste from processing some type of nuts. There is another plant like this in Hawaii burning field waste from pineapples.

There are many more plants operating under very strict environmental controls.

Find a qualified consulting engineer, determine feasability which will include permits and identify potential equipment suppliers for the volume and type of waste. The study will also determine if there is the potential for steam or hot water use or sales or if generation is practical. There are also companies that staff and operate the plant.

Some cities have centralized heating piped to many buildings (Harrisburg PA and St. Paul, MN) and others do cooling (San Diego, CA) using boilers, engine generators recovering exhaust heat or water jacket heat. Using every BTU helps to improve the efficiency.

This is not rocket science, it exists in many places. Do not be distracted by the nay sayers and confusers.

I make this comment in support of the Camera man.

Thousands of tons of tree trimmings are trucked to land fills all over this nation.Much of it is chipped by the trimmers as this is the most compact way of hauling this material. Where ever there are high winds that create blow downs, and or lost limbs there are clean up crews that come in and cut up and chip these wood products. Where ever there exists trees that endanger the security and integrity of the local grid, the power companies pay trimmers to remove thousands of tons of these chipped limbs that most often are deposited in local land fills. This removal goes on around the year. It certainly seems to me that some effort should be made to take advantage of this wasted energy source. Here in Florida there is said to be under construction a power generating facility that is to use biomass as the fueling source. It is also said that this same biomass will be used to create methanol. Growing the biomass is certainly a good idea for the local farmers, but not to take advantage of the chipped wood refuse, is inconceivable as the ag supply likely will come up short in satisfying the energy needs for such an installation.

Just one mans opinion!

TMF

In response to Camera Man and Too Much Fun.

Is there anything in my blog that said he couldn't do it? Is there anything in there that says it hasn't been done? More important, is there anything I gave him that wasn't true?

Some one has asked a question and I provided him with some White Paper information. Let everyone draw their own conclusion.

Hello Goat,

Did my response contradict anything that you stated? I do not think so! The statements that I made are quite in order. Across this nation we have wind incidents that cause emergency crews to show up to cut up/chip trees and limbs that are ultimately wasted as debris and trucked to land fills for dumping. Here in Sunny Florida, not a day passes that thousands of trees are bulldozed over, cut up and trucked to landfills. I can reasonable state that in many cases these trees are more than just large enough for cutting into cord wood for pulp. Many of these trees would be suitable for use as power line poles, and many others would yield significant sizes of lumber.

The problem exists with the lack of economic salvage for these trees. It simply isn't cost effective to cut, load and haul a few logs at a time to local lumber mills. However if there was an enterprise that would be willing to pay for the truck loads of chipped wood products, this useful product could be the source of income for local enterprises. As for getting the most possible energy out of the chipped wood, the construction of a gasifier would be in order, and the fuel produced might be better used by powering up something like a Caterpillar diesel/propane/NG engine to turn a generator/alternator. We know that there is the possibility to do this as it is already being done in third world countries.

As for the economics, if all one has to invest in is his equipment and labor to harvest and chip this, presently wasted resource it may be economically viable.

I would suggest that State Govt. should look into creating a rule requiring the recycle of such resources where it can be shown not to impede progress and increase the cost of home ownership for new home builders.

Where's the "BEAF"!

TMF

No offense intended to Old Goat and others who have provided constructive information and alternatives.

When you search "waste boiler" you will find a list of applications and on the list is:

http://www.focusonenergy.com/files/Document_Management_System/Renewables/W_RB_MKCS_SuperiorKilns.pdf

which may be a mirror of what you are trying to accomplish ?

There may be a state or electric utility organization with grant money available to help evaluate the alternatives of what is best economicly for you to do.

That is what we are trying to acomplish, but we have no need for the btu usage.

we already heat our entire plant off of our wood waste, the figures listed is what is still left over.

That is why we were looking to convert the heat to electricity, somthing we do use.

Are you sure there is no better use of your commodity? Energy conversion is inefficient compared to use of the whole product. Transportation costs are down, surely you have looked at mulch, sawdust bedding etc?

Look-up hog-fuel boilers. Very common in the forest products industry, pulp and paper industry, etc. If you have a facility in your area that uses hog fuel they will likely buy it. It is more economical and efficient overall as the electrical generation is just one use, the steam is also used directly in the plant processes and the larger boiler results in economies of scale.

Hey Pallets:

You might consider producing pellets and encouraging your employee's to buy them at a good discount off market price. This helps you retain good employee's. This helps the employee's heat their homes. You can then sell the excess to local citizens and employ more people. I have seen this done in other industries. It also helps you self finance the start up cost. You usually have to limit the sale to any one employee, as they will almost immediately start their own business reselling pellets.

Just an idea

(The name 'Senatorferrell' is a nickname my son's calls one of his friends).

You may consider looking at this forum thread http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/34018#newcomments

where they are discussing pellet stoves and the pellet sources and issues.

Please check the following link which appeared in R&D e-news yesterday, it may improve the efficiency of your existing operation while producing fuel saleable to others as a by-prodcut.

http://www.rdmag.com/ShowPR.aspx?PUBCODE=014&ACCT=1400000101&ISSUE=0903&RELTYPE=IDN&PRODCODE=00000000&PRODLETT=FY&CommonCount=0

Making wood a new energy source

March 12, 2009

Is wood the new coal? Researchers at North Carolina State Univ. (NC State) think so, and they are part of a team working to turn woodchips into a substitute for coal by using a process called torrefaction that is greener, cleaner, and more efficient than traditional coal burning.