If You Were a Manager, Who Would You Hire?

Given the company information and intended project work above I would say all of the above are required, ESPECIALLY when hazardous area zoning and design is now concerned. Additional outsourcing using consultancy firms (with regard to the hazardous area design and certification) would also be highly desirable (and likely legally necessary in the beginning).

Do you want to succeed, fail, or tread water?

Do you want to hire a professional, or an amateur?

How much time do you have?

Who do you want to blame for wasted time and failure?

If you have no competition then hire cheap amateurs, then send it to the expensive institution for review, then blame the amateurs for their failure, then hire the professional expert the institution wants you to, either from their staff, or from their friends.

Otherwise hire someone who knows what they are doing, and do it right in the first place.

P.S. Just a Wild Ass Guess.

If you are asking me, then I would say, hire me as the senior staff/manager. I will supervise, train, guide and direct the company in the direction of growth both in its technical and staff development objectives.

you are good manager.

Without hesitation you should hire the expert to guide and supervise the staff. Most of the cost and time to complete a project is determined very early on in a project. If the early decisions are wrong it will just cost more later to redo and correct these earlier wrong decisions. Good design upfront can also reduce building and operational costs later. If the decisions are slow because your staff is learning on the job then the cost is not only all the salaries of all the people working on the job while some are learning but also the lost revenue from the project because it was delayed in getting started. As the old saying goes it is "penny wise and pound foolish" to go cheap on the design phase of any project because the design has the biggest impact on cost but it is usually one of the lowest cost items for any project.

I also agree with you Sir.. But the nature of this company is recruit the fresh graduates and push them to study by themselves.. This is horrible, because we are dealing with pressurized things and hazardous area.

For several times i suggested the company, but for several times they refused and rejected my suggestion..

They always tries to avoid my suggestion by saying, "we can do it without the expert, you can ask to your friends who work for similar project, we can invite institution to review the design, this is a good challenge for you, etc.." (i hate them if they were saying those things)

But in fact, the reviewer is just give suggestion, not the detailed engineering procedure (how to design spherical tank, how to choose the right pump, how to determine the process, etc). And the reviewer come to my office only for 6 hours to discuss/review this project (only 6 hours??!!)

One more thing, my company also always says that we can just copy the design of existing plant / similar plant by only one-day visit to existing plant, for example to equalize the shell thickness, column, pump, piping and process, to see the layout, etc.

What do you think about this? Is it make sense? Or ridiculous? Or we are on the right track?

Thank you..

Actually it is possible, and has been done. Obviously it should NOT, but here is a quick true story of an entire hazardous area equipment manufacturing FACTORY that was duplicated and built in China. This is also for you 'Premium' and gives true real- world examples of what happens if people try to copy others work.

The short version is a bunch of Chinese visitors visited 'company x's' factory (name changed for obvious reasons) a couple of decades ago and took pictures of everything during a tour (and by everything I mean they were even taking pictures of the windows). A few years later (about 5) a former engineer at 'company x' came across an identical copy of 'company x's' factory in China. He took a picture of one of the walls where they had exactly duplicated a bunch of wires, conduit and brackets where a piece of equipment at 'company x's' factory had been but had been removed years before the tour. They copied it all, even the stuff they didn't understand. Needless to say they went out of business shortly after because although they had duplicated the equipment to make the products, they didn't know their arse from their elbow.

Here's another true story (from 'company x' again) that clearly illustrates my point (pay close attention 'Premium' this is for you).

For years 'company x' would produce a new product and display for the very first time (before even selling the first one to the public) at a yearly hazardous area equipment show, and 'company y' would always be there with a cheaper exact duplicate product (and I mean EXACT DUPLICATE, right down to the colour). The smart salesman at 'company x' realised that 'company y' was copying their new products and the only way 'company y' could do this is if they had access to the prototype being developed at 'company x's' factory. They figured 'company y' was sending one of their staff to 'company x's' factory and on the regular tour's they had, was taking pictures of their new product lines and bringing them back to 'company y's' engineering department for duplication. They even thought the knew who it was, so they laid a trap. When they saw the 'company y' person begin the tour one day the salesman quickly got one of their engineers to completely rewire the control box of the new product line that was going to be unveiled for the first time the following year, removing the wires and completely randomly placing in different terminals and leaving the control box lid open for all to see. Sure enough the 'company y' staff member took pictures of the 'modified' product line.

The following year, sure enough 'company y' had the exact duplicate product that 'company x' had. Upon close inspection 'company y' had even wired it up exactly to the pictures that had been taken on the tour of the 'modified' product line. They never figured out how to get their copied 'modified' product to work.

The moral of these true stories is that "just because you can copy someone else's work (even exactly) doesn't mean you know what you are doing or that you can do and be like someone else who DOES know what they are doing".

Experience is paid by lot of hard work and mistakes done and corrected. This policy of throwing newbies in fire can be only one available if area of research or activity is new, but since nowadays even small mistakes can bury the company, and specially because there are other companies that are producing same products already, it is only thing your company could do and succeed: hire expert to train and advise and supervise your freshly graduated engineers, but most of all to show by example how things are planned and prepared.

Beside this, it is important that everyone learn how to think in terms of systems and that good planing is work almost done. Still, if area is new for company as whole, then somebody knowing grisly details must be hired.

If that company You work for refuse to listen to advices for their own good, then find yourself another company to work for, if You have any experience to offer, that is! Staying there and feeling frustrated and undervalued would dull your creativity, so best seek company where they would listen what You say and take it into consideration and implement it, or even let You implement it.......... Sometimes even threatening them that You would leave if they dont pay attention to ideas You have can change things for better drastically, but dont make empty threats or bluffing, as they can call your bluff and fire You :-(( Therefore do it only if You have new position ready, but do it only if You think there is future for You if only they start to pay attention. Else just find new job and leave, as staying would ruin your life and you would never achieve position equal to your abilities...... If You are new in company, be quiet and learn as much as you can, as then You would be able to find new and more rewarding job.

Expert can plan all stages of production and then assign task to fresh staff to try their hand, but expert has to do it at least first time all by himself. If he is wise, and have found that some of his pupils have novel or even inventive ideas, then he would let such persons to try them separately first, unless it is obvious that this should work and is better than what was done before. But then also he has to make it operational according to his knowledge of field, so he can spot and prevent possible problems. Next time he can let this person to do it new way completely under his supervision, and if all is fine then in future this inventive engineer can work autonomously. Therefore, all newbies would learn the lore, specially if they were assigned tasks that would then analyzed by expert and weak points stressed and remade with help of expert, or good points shown to others as example of good work. Any criticism should be avoided and advices given instead, and commendations given for parts done good, and any innovation or invention rewarded at once, first verbally and then by giving 25% of cost savings or raised value to author.

That means that original thinking has to be stimulated systematically, by preset rules that anybody would understand and approve. In case that innovation or invention is result of team work, then reward is divided equally among team members, in proportion to salary they normally receive.

Expert would need just few years to teach his team what he knows, and it would be good that some computer >>Expert Knowledge system<< would be formed and used, because such system would grow in time and became more and more sucessfull, like recepie for some activity that should be followed and which guarantee best results each and every time. After this, and when potentiall leaders in the group are indentified, expert can retire, but can remain consultant that would be called when some problem arise that nobody know how to deal with..........

Only, expert knowledge can become obsolete due to technology changes, so then it is question if expert knowledge can help expert to find solutions for such new technology, but this depend on expert and his ability to learn and adapt. As you see, in your company surely there are experts for what was done before, so if change is not too drastic, such >>in house<< experts can be of use also.......

Hardest part is how to make right decision how to proceed, and that depend on exact circumstances as described above. Since nowadays wrong decision of such kind can wreck company, it is prudent to hire expert, just in case.........

At least somebody comming from outside of company can bring fresh wiews and also see what insiders have learned to ignore, or bring better solutions than ones rutinely used by staff in everyday work...........

In short what you're being asked to do is a recipe for disaster, and I mean major world headline news type disaster. There is a lot of good advice in this thread and I know it may be difficult to consider leaving your job over this as some advise but it may be the best decision you could make. If you do leave make sure you get yourself and loved ones as far away from that plant as possible. I don't want to add to you burden but the problem is if you leave then you'll get replaced with someone who doesn't care so much. So speak up and try to get the right things done and don't sign-off on things that you know aren't right because you'll just become the scape goat. You're being put in an impossible situation so do what your conscience says is right and maintain your own integrity. Good luck.

Given your statements in this reply, implies that your question is only academic (or to CYA later on -- so you can say, "See how many people agree with me on CR4? I told you so!")

You are more or less saying no one at the company listens to your opinion. Or maybe you're thinking that if you get enough like-minded answers on this forum you can print it and take it to your supervisor(s).

One more thing, my company also always says that we can just copy the design of existing plant / similar plant by only one-day visit to existing plant, for example to equalize the shell thickness, column, pump, piping and process, to see the layout, etc.

I disagree and you learn nothing.

When you copy without doing the research, design or whatever, you also copy the mistakes without even knowing it.

You should out-source this project to a relevant reliable and cost effective company. Your strategy to train internal staff or hire new staff , should be by putting them to work closely with the experts in the field and in design reviews.

This way, you still achieve your project goals plus create opportunities for your staff to develop new skills required in oil & gas.

Given sufficient time & exposure , you then can assess your team's capability to take on future oil & gas projects.

If business really takes off for your company, hiring the " familiar expert " from the out-sourcee company to head your oil & gas department would certainly put your company in great strikes.

"Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach."

I would seek out the most experienced person to initially supervise
but... be careful you are not conned here. (been there done that.)

Then set a group of fresh staff to work under and learn from the
supervisor on the understanding that the one achieving the best
results will soon get promoted to the supervisor's job. (motivation)

When a leader is found from the freshers retire the supervisor
(poor chap) again,...been there suffered that; and hopefully
you will have the best of all worlds; young, wise, well lead, staff.

Normal evolution; discard the old; but do try to reward him/her well.
Hope this helps.

jt

It only hurts when I laugh. (arrow in my chest.)

That has to be the most cynical advice I have ever seen in CR4. "Con the expert, but don't get conned."

Actually, that sounds real close to the deplorable 'style' of the OP's company.

Thankfully, with such shoddy intentions, a true expert will sniff you out most of the time. So you'll land the rookie-expert or desperate-for-work-expert instead. Or you may get the doesn't-give-a-dime-for-you-expert, who will be less than dedicated: Don't complain if you get conned, you deserve it.

It does not mean the supervisor isn't aware of what is happening;
he/she should realise it, even if not being specifically informed.

Also, provided he/she is well rewarded for the job, is it wrong?
i.e. many short term contracts are offered / open to all grades.

Provided no one gets hurt it's cost effective and efficient, which
can be reflected in the price of the output, and paid by the public.

If you want to be a care worker; business is the wrong profession.
As is reflected in financial markets today; but that's another story.

jt.

I'm a complicated person; Some times I'm nice.. and sometimes I'm nasty.

Quoting guest: "That has to be the most cynical advice I have ever seen in CR4. 'Con the expert, but don't get conned.' Actually, that sounds real close to the deplorable 'style' of the OP's company."

Of course it's cynical and deplorable. But it is probably the most practical advise we can give poor OP short of advising him to leave that job.

Ed Weldon

Hire the Old Goats. They live on tin cans, and if they fall down its fun to watch them try to get up.

Seriously, is it even fair to bring in a entry level person and throw him into a fire he is not prepared to trained to put out. If its a matter of finance, then how much can the company afford to loose before the boat is righted.

Hiring the expert to guide and supervise staff (the fresh graduates).

Particularly if YOU are not an expert in the field, hire one EXPERT in the field to supervise the novice engineers. Another option might to be to pay a consultant expert to bring the guys on-line. The consultant KNOWS that this assignment is not going to be forever... and if treated right, he can be brought back in when unexpected problems occur in the future, and they will occur.

I don't know a bloody thing about oil & gas so don't look in my direction

Bill

Hmm, sounds like the OP is dealing with "Instant Gratification" thinking within his company.

I suggest that you take C.A.R.E in this situation. That is Cover Arse Retain Employment.

Ensure that no one in your firm or from the judiciary can hang anything to do with this project on you.

Its no consolation though that when your company has created the mother of all craters that you were proved right after all.

Press your management to change their dangerous strategy and be noted by others that you are trying to get your firm to do it properly, if nothing else you might get headhunted by a rival firm because you have a reputation for the detail in your work ethics.

Just my threepence worth.

Another thought is to keep a log on the subject... dated and initialed. That way when they point the finger at you, you can pull out your log, with the history of the project. I keep a lab book, in which everything I do goes into it. For example, in 1979, Atari had a big layoff. I was given the name and phone number of a headhunter who was looking for Atari talent. Given a little time, I could chase down the proper lab book and get that info... not that it would be of any value today...

Bill

Premium -- From what I've read so far on this topic I feel that you are in a fairly dangerous position. You post your location as Jakarta; so I'm assuming your company is in Indonesia. Western perceptions of Indonesia are that it still has characteristics of an emerging nation with short experience in the process of governing itself. This brings greater tendency for corruption and weakness in the rule of law; characteristics that hopefully your nation is outgrowing.

Given this kind of situation it appears that your company in its desire to rapidly grow its business has chosen the path of "going it on the cheap". The cynic in me sees the company managers as setting you up personally to take the fall in case of some tragic accident associated with engineering failure of equipment in the new facility. This could well mean a long term in prison for you while the people on top get gentle rebukes from their well compensated political allies. All your evidence, journals and other CYA's can easily get lost in a politically driven investigation that is pushed by an angered public to find someone to blame and punish. Young "tiger" engineering managers are wonderful targets for such strategies.

You are in a very risky situation. Are you up to that? Is there a real reward that justifies that risk? Judge carefully. Even selling vegetables from a cart in the marketplace is a better life than a prison cell.

Ed Weldon

Well said!

Except I would say it would be death sentence punishment in case of Indonesia, not prison...

I already suggested OP to look for another company to work for, if possible, of course.

Trying to re-engineer installation just from looking at it and not really knowing nature of processes used is not possible, and if one know what should be done, then it is easy to design own version. However, without experience, bad or expensive (or both) mistakes would be committed, so compared to this it is far cheaper to hire expert......

Management perhaps reason that probability of success is 50% (either it is success or not), but actual probability would be far less, and such failure can wreck company.

Remind me on story about company that produced really small airplanes for dusting crops, and someone got idea that they could produce bigger airplanes for air travel. Unfortunately what looked same to management who were thinking about it as just larger scale models, was not nearly so in practice, and airplanes produced were too heavy, too slow and did not have even reservoirs matched to length of flight, so they went bankrupt over producing prototypes........

I would say it is similar case here, but with far more dangerous consequences of failure.

Well guys..

Thank you for the suggestions..

I see that most of you feel disagree with the condition in the place i work for.. I really understand, but remember, the most difficult time of new effort is at the beginning.

And i hope the beginning is on the right track..

Once more, thank you..

"Live in Hope, Die in Vain!"

"Things that Start Well, End Well."

A good friend of mine is an expert welder, and otherwise knows quite a good deal about how to get things done.

Repeatedly neighbors will come to him and ask for his advice.

He gives it freely.

They complain, there must be a way to do it other than what he suggested.

They do it the way they would have done it without his advice, come from experience, suffer, and it is so depressing, it doesn't even give us a laugh.

>>And i hope the beginning is on the right track..<<

????????????

All discusion was telling You it is NOT >>on right track<< at all... :-((

It seems to me we were wasting time trying to help You see what is going on, thinking You cannot see it because You are in middle of it......

You still cannot see?

So what is Your conclusion after all, to follow orders from your Boss?

If he told You to make dynamite, and You know only that nitroglycerine is used and what shape it has when finished, would You ignore people who tell You that nitroglycerine is extremely unstable and can explode if safety measures are not known and strictly followed?

Would You not rather hire someone with long experience in making dynamite then to repeat some mistake that somebody has done before and got killed?

From what I have read in other posts, that is allmost exactly Your situation!

So, why did You ask for advice if You dont want to follow it?

I would think twice before advising You next time, sorry :-((

hohoho..

Please calm down Sir..

The reason why i am asking this question is i want to know different perception from CR4 members regarding to this issue. My conclusion is most of you have same perception as mine. So, i am in your side gentlemen..

For your info, we have joined with oil and gas consultant. Nowadays, we are still in bidding phase, so it means that we have not started the project yet..

I think this company is on the right track, but not on the fast lane, i hope you know what i mean.

Talking about safety, YES we are really concern on safety. Of course i do not want to be involved in something horrible.. I am still normal, and i do not want to harm anyone along my life. And the most important thing is, i will disobey their orders if there is no way out to solve the design problems. Trust me!

So please Sir, do not ever think twice to give me more guidance.

I really thank you for your time to share with me (read: us).

Wish you all luck!

Well, fine.......

I gues then this thread is finished so I would sign off.......

All the best!

Marijan Pollak