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Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/27/2009 6:48 AM

I am looking for feedback from people who have used CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) or Propane conversion systems in the past. I would like to know what pros and cons you experienced and what type of system you had installed on your vehicle. Thank you for any information you may be able to offer!

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#1

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/28/2009 11:53 AM

After getting the optimum adjustments on a Ford F100 pic-up I got 22miles per gallon. [Factory settings gave 18mpg]

A propane feul system was fitted and money-wise there was absolutely no differance.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/28/2009 12:49 PM

jurie sa, that doesn't sound too good at all.

And this is the concept that T Boone Pickens wants us all to sign up to?

I don't think so.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/28/2009 12:55 PM

I can only speak for Germany, not for anwhere else, but Auto Gas is about half the price of Super.......so even if the MPG is the same (I hear its actually usually slightly worse), then price wise and cleanliness wise its still much better....

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#4

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/28/2009 1:15 PM

I have done some research into conversions for my own use and find the offerings pretty slim. It looks like Honda is the only manufacturer that actually produces for the public in the form of a Civic sold only in California. The GSA will auction bi-fuel and dedicated LPG trucks and some cars occasionally. I don't know if Average Joe can buy or order these vehicles new from a dealer.

For a conversion to be really cost effective it seems like the real recovery would come from the gasoline price v LPG price per mile driven. I don't want to discount the reported savings in wear and tear but the cost of a set of spark plugs and an oil change really don't sway me over. The same reason I bought my V-10 vs diesel sure I have a trailer and I tow it around on vacation but I could never drive it enough to offset the initial cost of the power-stroke in fuel savings alone.

I'll give Pickens this much it we are going to spend $5.00+ a gallon for transportation fuel I would rather have it all spent inside our own border than line the pockets of fanatics, dictators, and terrorist.

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#5

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/28/2009 3:03 PM

I knew a lot of people who converted vans or pick-up trucks to propane and they were quite satisfied. I considered it but I had a problem finding a place that would do a dual fuel conversion. Up here it can hit -40C (which is the same as -40F) at this temperature propane can be hard to start. At the time the cost of the conversion plus the propane tanks was well over $1,000. They would quote a price for a propane conversion that retained the ability to use regular gasoline when required or when you couldn't find a service station that dispensed propane, but they wouldn't perform the dual fuel conversion..

There were anecdotal stories of people who filled their cars in the southern US where the fuel was not propane but butane which apparently has poorer cold weather starting performance.

You can get propane kits for diesel engines. The still require some diesel fuel for ignition but the inject vapourized propane into the air intake. When natural gas came to the small city where I grew up the HUGE diesel engines in the power plant were converted to inject natural gas into the air intake and enough diesel was injected into the cylinders to get ignition. I have heard of a similar trick being used on LNG tankers, the boil-off from the LNG tanks is fed into the air intakes for the diesels.

I was in Vancouver British Columbia once and the Taxi was using compressed natural gas. The driver had nothing nice to say about it, the car was quite obviously gutless. Whether this is typical of CNG or just the particular installation and engine tuning, I could not say. The taxi driver said that there was intense competition among the drivers to get assigned a regular gas or propane car because they performed so much better.

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/28/2009 8:31 PM

Thanks for the reply! I will be installing a CNG conversion system in my Chevy Truck in two weeks and look forward to reporting the progress. Because there are not many CNG fueling stations in my area I will be trying Propane first and then later switching to CNG after a local filling station is operational. The system that I am installing has the ability to operate on the original fuel or the alternative fuel at the push of a button and assures no loss in power or performance. I will gladly share the results with everyone.

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#6

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/28/2009 6:49 PM

Natural gas here in Brazil is being used successfully by people that have high distances travelled day by day and taxi drivers. Indeed, some problems occur and all can be attributed to poor engine conditions, bad adjustment and home made adapt kits... some smart guys still insist in adapting a domestic kitchen LPG cylinder to a car that has been installed a CNG kit and going to a refueling station and... well, they are luck all the safety protocol around here is mandatory about keeping no people around the car. They are a little expensive. Around here, you should drive more than 60 km per day so the kit can pay for itself in a reasonable time. And you must install it in a reasonably new car, because its installation in an older, lower priced car makes no sense at all. In some states, you have a significant discount in car anual property fee, what really makes difference in the payback time. Unfortunately, this is not my case... Regarding problems, starting the engine is always done with gasoline. Change is automatically accomplished after start if there's enough CNG in the reservoir. The car may be fuelled by the original fuel (currently most of cars use methanol or gasoline mixed in any proportion). Some tricks include to keep your air filter always new, replaced in a hard time regimen and not controlled by engine performance, or even installing a competition type high flow one. This because the gas is injected in the intake manifold and, if any back pressure or reverse flow is sensed in the engine feeding, detonation in the intake duct may occur with damage to the inlet air path hardware.

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#8

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/29/2009 1:50 PM

I converted a 1985 GMC 1 ton cube van to propane in 1989 and ran it to 2004. The conversion paid for itself the first year when propane prices were 8.3 cents per litre and gasoline was 44 cents per liter. Efficiency in fuel cosumption was 60% of gasoline on a volume basis. It would not start below -20C. Acceleration was poor. I did not regret conversion for 13 years until the price gap between propane and gasoline narrowed.

Don

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#9

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/30/2009 11:08 AM

CNG does not produce as much power as propane. As an example. A 15KW generator is only rated at 13KW on CNG. Take that into consideration when doing your comparisons.

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#10

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

06/30/2009 11:09 PM

I voted for this as a good thread.

I had two reasons.

One I hadn't much thought about it as an option.

Two I learned a good deal.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

07/01/2009 3:51 PM

3) it's a small step to biogas....[we have to stop for burritos or we'll never make it home!]

the new avatar makes you look like Larry King [suspenders] minus the heart attacks & wives

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#12

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

07/03/2009 1:52 AM

I have ran three pickups for over 100K miles total now over a near 10 year period with dual fuel conversion kits I installed myself. The first was a 1974 Ford F-100 with a stock 390. The power was slightly less and the mileage was slightly less as well. But I had no problems with winter starting all the way down to -40 F. I wore that pickup out!

The next pick up was a 1985 Ford F-150 with a modified 460 and E4OD transmission I custom retrofit into the truck. The engine was specifically built to run propane but I only had a 9.2:1 compression ratio so the ignition timing could be dialed back for occasional gasoline use. It would produce an honest 400HP on propane with 500+ ft/lb of torque. On propane it regularly ran mid teens on the highway unloaded. And 9 -10 MPG pulling twice its own weight in OD at interstate highway speeds into a good head wind! It was my favorite pickup! I would still be driving it if a little old lady had not taken the entire front off of it!

My present pickup is a 1999 Ford F-250 Super duty with the triton V10. It has the same dismal power and piss poor mileage on gas or propane. It will start on propane at -30 F. It gets about 9 - 10 MPG unloaded on both fuels and bout 5 -7 MPG pulling anything. It wont stay in OD at interstate speed while towing anything on either fuel. If there is a head wind it wont stay in OD while running empty either and it is chipped out! When its paid off the V10 is getting taken out and the 460 is going to be retrofitted in and it will still be set up as a dual fuel system!

I just picked up a 1996 Mercury Grand Marquis that has a bad engine. I have a wrecked car with the same engine so when I do the swap I am gong to rework the car to run dual fuel as well.

I will continue to run dual fuel systems on every vehicle I own and hopefully will ever own! I have had years of favorable and reliable operation with no more or less break downs than as with any other gas only vehicle. I personally love the dual fuel setups simply because of the versatility and the fact that if one system malfunctions the other one is still there to run on! Plus the dual tank setups have outstanding distance between fill numbers!

One down side to propane operation is there is an apparent difference in fuel potency and power from location to location. I have had fill ups at one place continually give great power and mileage and another give continually poor mileage and less power under the same driving conditions.

Plus a few dealers try to rip you off on propane fills. They get greedy with the road taxes and try to stick you with unreasonable fill up prices! Propane has the same road tax as gasoline or diesel not double or triple because of it being an alternate fuel! I have been told some states do not have a tax on propane for road use though but even less dealers know that still.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

07/03/2009 9:59 AM

Thank you for the informative response. The system I will be installing on my truck has its own computer ECU that works in place of the OEM ECU when running on aternate fuel. I will know very soon how well it works as the manufacturer states there is no power loss and the system self adjusts on the fly. I have also heard that not all propane is he same quality, we have one dealer in our area I will not seek propane from. Are you a certified mechanic or just one who does his one work/repairs? I would like to hear more about the system you have used.

Thanks,

Randy

filkinsr@ajsresearch.com

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

07/10/2009 12:25 AM

I am just a self taught lover of all things mechanical and electrical. Everything I have done for myself and others is custom designed and set up per their vehicles needs.

I have a load of NOS high output vapor carburetors and vaporizers that were designed for the big block high horsepower engines that were used in the RVs back in the 1980's. They work great on the 400 Plus Cubic inch engines! The smaller sized vehicles get the Impco units from eBay that best match their size.

My old 1974 Ford with the 390 engine used the RV system and so does the built up 460. The V10 has an Impco 425 unit set up between the air filter box and the throttle body. All the systems I set up have an on the go switchover capability that uses a simple dash mounted switch to do the fuel change over. Its as user friendly as I can get.

I have also used the Impco 300 type carburetors on the mid 1990's Chevy 350 engines with the throttle body injection system with good over all results. My moms Husband has one and loves it! Especially when propane was $1.40 a gallon while gas was near $4.00 a gallon not to long ago!

I also have done service work on propane powered forklifts and assorted machinery as well as a few older propane vehicles for others. Once you know the basics of how they work and how they are sized its really an easy system to work with regardless of what type of vehicle or machine its on.

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#14

Re: Feedback from Compressed Natural Gas or Propane Vehicle Users

07/05/2009 4:56 PM

As far as the internals of the engine being converted... I would suggest hardening the valves. Add a larger radiator (because you can never have a radiator that's too large)... Maybe a high output ignition with hotter, slick orange or blue plug wires and better plugs.

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http://mealercompanies.com

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Users who posted comments:

Andy Germany (1); Anonymous Poster (3); bhrescobar (1); bob c (1); CNG Converter (1); Garthh (1); JLMEALER (1); jurie sa (1); tcmtech (2); The_curious_one (1); Transcendian (1); V-10 (1)

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