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Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/12/2009 10:10 PM

For anyone who is aware of the ongoing developments and philosophies of continuous improvement in the world of business, it leads me to wonder why we appear to be getting farther and farther off track with respect to politics, finance (banking, insurance, trading), and health.

The simple answer must be, as voting citizens:

  1. We are not properly establishing goals.
  2. We are not measuring our progress (change) towards those goals.
  3. We are not officially recording the data of progress (change).
  4. We are not analyzing the data regarding progress (change).
  5. We are not using the feedback from the analysis to correct actions toward improvement.
  6. We are not ensuring that such a system of political accomplishment is surviving leadership changes.

and by We, I mean, We the people, not the polilticians, corporations, or institutions. There are some responsibilities that we simply have to perform ourselves. The question is how.

Most science and engineering people feel somewhat frustrated with the lack of order and progress in our political systems. I do not wish to present any specific political issues here. I wish for us to think generically, and do what we do best: Design systems that work!

Representational voting by citizens was formulated in North America in a time before corporations and lobbyists, electronic media, the internet, and the total onslaught of technology in the last two centuries. We face so many issues of a complex nature that not even specialists can keep up with it all. So how do we expect politicians, disconnected from the real choices of citizens, to make right decisions on our behalf. There is a disconnect here. I'm not the first to say it.

So I certainly don't have all the answers, but I believe that this sector of science and engineering brain-power does. I think one of the first challenges is to create an electronic voting system, that allows as many citizens as possible to vote directly on issues facing the government. Can it be done, and be secure? Do you think a system of issue-based voting would help? What other requirements are there to get politics, finance, and health restored to a reasonable and continuously improving level of responsiveness to citizens?

On the surface, electronic voting ought to be simple.. but there are many issues, most predominantly, security and identification. I believe that that if we could resolve just this one question, we could take a seven-league step towards securing a better future for our children. Does anyone out there know how to do this?

These issues affect everyone, globally. I urge you to post your thoughts here, positive or negative.

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#1

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/12/2009 10:57 PM

First we must determine issues and priorities.

Since transnational affiliations are frowned on, and nationalism is as strong as ever, if not stronger, objections to Weapons of Mass Destruction are seen as unpatriotic.

On that score we are, how can I say, Screwed? (there is a better word.) If we say we ought to come together and protect the planet from Asteroids and Comets, well, we are considered not even worthy of any note, stupid, and alarmists.

Voting that is not connected to dollars, has little impact.

A national voting system is likely possible to work out for a connected populace.

It is an international voting system, and an international alliance of classes fighting for human rights for all, men, women, and children, that shall be a difficult reality to create.

P.S. As you know on April Fools I have declared war on asteroids, and in the past I've declared war on WMDs. - No Money, No Progress. -My declaration of war on WMDs is actually very serious and would require a real bloody war with about 5 or 6 nations, and it is a good thing I took my picture off the site. It is probably a good idea now for me to get rid of any trace of where I live as well.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/12/2009 11:23 PM

Founding fathers faced down ridicule and persecution in order to engrave the fundamentals of our western society into legal process. There is power to be had, by the pragmatic use of intelligent tools: comparison, rational argument, and communication.

Voting (especially issue-based) is the priority, in my opinion. It is the start of self-knowledge of the nation. How else do you determine accurately what the people truly want? The media, pollsters, and even the legal system itself is fraught with potential misrepresentation.

The legal system, especially higher courts, deal with issues. There is little input by the citizenry. It is done by precedent and judicial evaluation. I think this does not represent the citizens wishes, or necessarily, any higher power or intelligence. Where is the civil dialog and record, except in street protests, blogs, and other nebulous means?

Chris

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#3

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/13/2009 7:09 AM

"On the surface, electronic voting ought to be simple.. but there are many issues, most predominantly, security and identification. I believe that that if we could resolve just this one question, we could take a seven-league step towards securing a better future for our children. Does anyone out there know how to do this?"

IMO, the key to ensuring the fidelity of election results is by tying up the vote with the voter, i.e., providing a method by which every vote counted is traceable to a live person / voter. it is not necessary to know whom he voted for, but it is very important that auditors know that he indeed cast his vote on such a date, at such a place. the 2 key words are: RELIABILITY and AUDITABILITY.

in my home country, it's a running joke that people who's been long dead rise on election day to cast their votes. so if the system has the capability to identify the voter electronically, and validate his person (as a legal and legible voter) before allowing him to cast his vote, that would already practically answer the issue of reliability.

auditability can then be realized because reliability has been ensured.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/13/2009 12:25 PM

I agree totally with you. GA.

I was thinking maybe fingerprints, retina scans, voice prints, etc.. but in this modern age, even those are not perfect, or completely secure. (enough for a bank) but maybe secure enough for this system.

Chris

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#12
In reply to #5

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/14/2009 3:15 AM

thanks chrisq288.

yes, the tools are there to do this. OTOH, one other crucial factor that will determine the "executability" of such a system, is, undoubtedly, Political Will. sadly, in developing countries, we see that those who've tasted of power, get intoxicated by it, and are tempted to keep the status quo. we've seen this, recently, in Iran. in the Philippines, the people are more successful, sometimes to their regret, at unseating any leader whom they think are undeserving of the office.

the bottom line is: do the people want it? in a democratic system, the people just might have their way.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/14/2009 5:05 PM

Langyaw,

In systems, there is typically a ringing response to a sudden large change on an input, which then dampens over time. I know that the shock of removing a politician from office will have this effect throughout the system, but I would stipulate that, as human civilizations do make some attempt to adapt and compensate for gross error, that the fundamental causes of error would become known over time, and efforts generated to minimize them. If the causes of misrepresentation are financially lubricated lobbying, then these errors will become known by comparison with the 'truth' of the issue-based electronic voting results. Therefore, the errors should decrease with time.. don't you think?

Chris

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/15/2009 4:47 AM

"these errors will become known by comparison with the 'truth' of the issue-based electronic voting results. Therefore, the errors should decrease with time.."

OTOH, the situation has turned into a chicken-and-egg question, because the powers-that-be who will ultimately approve and implement the system, might not be so eager to let the 'truth' out.

an actual case in point is happening now in the Philippines. national elections are coming up in 2010, and the commission on elections intends to implement the electronic voting system, but some quarters are trying to keep this from happening.

will this system really help in revealing the people's will? or will it only be another tool for cheating? IMHO, a grassroots-based, pro-truth body, a non-government organization, could help in seeing this system installed, and ensuring that it is used credibly and honestly.

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#19
In reply to #16

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/15/2009 1:23 PM

I think you are very perceptive. GA.

I do think that people want justice and representation. In the most ancient times, people lived in city states, with a god ruling. The gods of the ancient world ruled fairly, and all could come to the temple to resolve their issues. Then the gods 'brought kingship down from heaven', and the people were ruled by kings like Gilgamesh and Hammurabi. These kings also ruled fairly, and presented their laws to the people for adjustication. This kingship was granted to people who were descended from the gods, after the gods produced children by human mothers. This system began the "Divine Right of Kings" and royalty ever since has been selected by bloodline. (also note this theme in The DaVinci Code) Also included are Emporers, Pharaoh's, Maharaja's etc. (Dalai Lama is a unique exclusion in ancient civilizations. it is by reincarnation. just imagine a thousand years of W.)

The Greeks invented Democracy and elected public officials, and had live debates over issues. This concept was borrowed by later democracies, and incorporated into legislative houses, even if, as in England, there was a royal family. The purpose was to debate issues, and find the will of the the people, plus the lords/landowners, and then pass the resolutions on to the Royal for passing into law. The Americans institued a President in the place of the King, and stripped a lot of power from the position. It has been slowly being put back into the position by the Cheney's of the country... thinking they are smarter than the founding fathers. In doing so, they are creating a gap between the will of the people and the ruling bodies.

I don't doubt that the masses will vote themselves 'bread and circuses' as in Roman times, and I think that it is important to have all points of view considered: landowners, military leaders, businessmen, women and minorities. I think it is important to have layers of approval, and a court system to resolve legal issues. I don't know about you, but I feel a lot of corruption and perversion in these systems lately. I probably wouldn't be on about this if I didn't feel like the fox was in the henhouse, and couldn't be distinguished from the farmer.

therefore.. I am proposing and asking if it is possible, to create something firm.. a simple but effective, and emimently reliable system.. a touchstone or cornerstone of a new society. founded on the best measure of truth that we can devise... so yes I think it will "really help in revealing the people's will?" and unless the gods are coming back real soon, I think we the people have to act.

Chris

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#25
In reply to #19

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/16/2009 2:38 AM

in my previous post, replied to the question in your OP, that YES, the idea is doable, and in my second post, I suggested that it could be an NGO that can get this to happen.

as I read all the other posts, it dawned on me that it is possible for all countries to have basically the same system! I said "basically", because the system can be slightly modified only to suit the individual country's electoral system, but would operate and run in a uniform, secure manner. the next question that would arise necessarily is: "Who can implement this? " by necessity, it should be someone who is DISINTERESTED. and *that* can only be the United Nations. IMO, they can get this implemented, by decree, for all democratic countries, and they can, also themselves, oversee each electoral process. I think such method would be fair and transparent enough for the public to accept.

I hope that solves the problem.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/16/2009 3:00 AM

I follow your logic, but unfortunately for me, the trail can not end with a goverment organization, because governments can not be trusted, nor can NGO's, nor corporations. That leaves international institutions which are not funded by goverments, but directly by public donation. (not corporate donation)

but even then... I don't trust it.

What I want is a machine system that can not be corrupted. It has functions that:

  1. identifies the issue(s).
  2. identifies the person.
  3. records their vote.
  4. irrevocably ties that vote to that person, on that given issue.
  5. prevents one person from voting more than once per issue, per ballot, regardless of which machine they vote on.
  6. produces reliable counts of the votes per issue.
  7. prevents anyone from knowing who voted on what, other than the count.
  8. secures the source data indefinitely.

Therefore, with such a system, it won't matter if the goverment that uses it is corrupt or not. (I assume they all are) It just produces results.... absolutely.

As I implied in the OP, this is just step one. secure the vote accurately.. a bigger issue is education of the public on the issues, and involving them as much as possible in the dialog.

Chris

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/16/2009 3:50 AM

a machine that does the functions you enumerated is doable and feasible. but...

"What I want is a machine system that can not be corrupted."

unfortunately, that is an impossibility. when humans are behind the machine, the machine becomes "human" in its actions as well.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/16/2009 4:16 AM

how about a System (more than machine) that can not be corrupted? Surely this is what american founding fathers were after...

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#30
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Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/24/2009 2:24 AM

The sea is brimming with prima Donna's when we need intelligence and will other than for war, we needn't have any more of them.

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#4

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/13/2009 7:32 AM

I think that we, the People, vote on most issues through our elected representatives (congressmen and senators). This is why we come to vote only once every two years, and vote for electing a person (there are some state proposals to vote for, too). An electronic vote on any issue would take the power from those representatives. If you are talking about this vote, every two years, I think that it can be done over Internet, but again, it is up to the same powerful guys...

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#6
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Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/13/2009 12:29 PM

... and in my opinion, those 'powerful guys' just don't have a accurate and solid feel for their citizens wishes. I think once the money starts rolling in, and they get educated in how the game is played, they tend to stop representing the people, and start representing the money. So what I am proposing is basically 'proof' that the representatives are off track.

Chris

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#7

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/13/2009 2:29 PM

Yes,

In Belgium, we use this already for years (I never voted with paper and pencil)

but there is a limitation: don't think that you can do this in a network, it has to be a separate system (voting separated from counting) and there must be a way that you as a voter can check the voting ballot on what the vote is that you will deponate.

It all comes down on decent people with the will to do it honestly.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/14/2009 1:27 AM

Hi Gwen,

Thank you for that reassuring news. Is there somewhere we can find information about your system?

I'm not familiar with this word "deponate"... can you explain please? (I did goggle it, but no results)

As for decency, I think that is the core of the problem. Money has shown a definite tendency to overrule decency or right decisions.

I do think that splitting the functions into separately controlled groups is quite a reasonable suggestion though... kind of like intelligence being controlled in cell groups in the spy world.

Chris.

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#8

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/13/2009 2:31 PM

In a world, such as ours (in the fact that we are not presently aware of any other worlds like ours), with the population going north to over seven billion, just how many in terms of numbers/percentage of our population is attending, or has in the last two hundred years or so, graduated from halls of higher education ie:universities and have studied and studied and studied and wholly concentrated on one dicipline or another - population growth, polititics, world food supplies, environmental concerns, housing, diseases, weather patterns, economics, pshychiatry, welfare, criminal behaviour, ahe applied and fine arts etc.? My guesstimation is that probably right now that have got to be somewhere around 10,000,000 people enrollelled in universities around the world just studying and studying and studying their assigned diciplines. And probably another 50,000,000 who are still with us who are post graduates.Which is fine - good luck to them and all the best. BUT, what happens WHEN they graduate??? Do they turn around and teach, write books, write white papers or theses, go on the lecture circuits or television to proclaim all of their wisdom, or join a private or government think tank? I wish these people of higher learning good do more good with what the've got! All I was able to get was high school and an apprenticeship which I am proud of. I have to agree with you, Chris, is why do we still have to put up with ten hotdogs in a package and only eight hot dog buns in a nother package? Must be a Canadian thing, eh?

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/14/2009 1:29 AM

So I think you are saying that we have an increasing number of university graduates, but that they are not producing as much 'good' as we need? (I might call it effectiveness, but it is dependent on the nature of the goals)

ps. I have no answer to the hotdog dilemma.. but at least you can still enjoy them.

Chris

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#17
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Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/15/2009 5:40 AM

Dear Chris,

There is no unique idea of acceptability of a person in any nation of the word.

People do not have identical thinking or life style and this diversity will dilute the ideal image to such a level that final out come may be very comic or funny.

If businessmen / money greedy were to decide..

If warlords were to decide..

If terrorists were to decide..

If priests were to decide..

If earth blowers were to decide..

If beggars were to decide..

If patriots were to decide.

If war mongers and national wealth burners were to decide

If nation doomers were to decide..

If fake actors were to decide..

If ordinary citizens were to decide for clever out there ready to cheat them..

It like a game between knife and water melon. Whichever way it is played, citizens become game in any way.You have power to vote but it end up with that.

So many types of people are out there, and some among them find themselves fit for this political profession for different reasons and we have see such thing in all well known politicians of the world, so where you can fit a judgment key for them. One president starts a war and next spend time in cleaning his deeds and then next again start the same thing. It just goes on like a bullshit.

We have nations because we do not want to share resources with others equally. No-where we have one kind of people so not to blame any nation for it. Can we be just one human race on earth leaving aside all other differences? If yes then we will need only good working professionals for a reasonable salary. You can hire 400 Presidents for 1 billion hiring fee for each to do a job lot better than giving 400 billions to one to blow them and watch him do so, and keep waiting for a day when he will become sensible. I think it is hard for many to spoil a country than what one may do.

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#18
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Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/15/2009 12:54 PM

that is excellent. GA.

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#22
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Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/15/2009 7:42 PM

Dear Chris,

Not a single professional job is hired in a manner we do election and place a person on the highest professional job position of a President. Think of hiring an engineer or doctor by election to their professional job.

What kind of jobs these are that any one can fit into. Almost each and every citizen is considered to be fit to be a President in Democracy. Do you think they are fit? Is it a wise way to do it? Or does it matter?

Politicians are not really elected to be the best performers for the position and just actors are good enough to do this role else they will not find themselves fit for the job. I think many who are reaching such high position are useless and unfit but comic enough for the country men and women to entertain. What is so great otherwise?

To butcher a (wmd) President of a country other nation almost butchers the entire nation to achieve this goal. Putting them in highest position is so easy and removing them isn't. Election process from my point of view is full of faults. It may be much better to have them changed each year. In facts actions of the President need to be voted rather than President's position. President does not represent a country's will as we know.

If your President enjoys power and acts like a drunker then what do you do? Does it matter or will it matter? It looks like that people think that they are very powerful because of vote power in them and they are electing some child who will walk holding their finger. This Psycho sickness needs some real treatment I agree.

How many of these people can be judged to be the right people? Ever nation tries to find out that they elected a real bad person. Why there is no probation period to to keep good or remove a useless person.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/15/2009 8:40 PM

I agree. I agree. I agree.

I think that with modern advanced sciences (social, economic, computer, engineering, etc) it is possible to simulate the dynamics of politics, municipal, state/province, national, and international, and to forecast the impact of policies and strategies.

I think that it is possible to create a voting system which will clarify the public intent on issues. These can be compared to, and continuously improve and refine, the simulated models forecasts.

I also think that these issue-based data sets can be compared to the political agendas of parties and individual politicians, and to generate a comparative report card. This is of value to not only grade a party's or individual's performance against their own goals, but to grade them against the will of the people, which is more important.

Another idea is that such tools can be integrated into foreign policy, and information available to other countries, and this will help with global misperceptions. I'm watching Morgan Spurlock's "Where In The World Is Osama Bin Laden?", and what is apparent is that people blame the government of the united states for the ongoing unrest in the middle east, and not the 'people of the united states'. I think that if there was actual evidence of the intent of the people of a country, and people from other countries see a difference between that and foreign policy, then there might just be a justification for Jihad.

What about people who get arrested inside a country for voicing an opinion which differs from that of the government? If the voting data elucidates clearly what is the will of the people, then perhaps that kind of behaviour will gradually decrease and be avoided.

I think you are right that increased education for political office is justifed, however, such programs can be perverted away from their original intent. (like extremism taking over traditional religions)

with my proposed simulation and voting system, i think that it would act like a reliable truth machine. people would come to trust it... would it be so bad?

Chris

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/15/2009 10:30 PM

Dear Chris,

If one country goes on war with other country to rectify the other country as its responsibility then, why there are so many countries. We can as well agree to have just one world one country. Which country do you think will agree of removing the boarders and its Armies and Passport and Visa.

Can the rest of the world go on war with USA because USA is polluting the rest of the world and itself badly?

Research itself is by iterations and requires both positive and negative information, so from where we get negative information? Remember that Hiroshima is the biggest information generator for Radiation damage and cancer research. So, which comes first? Research or accidents or bad human actions?

World is a highly dynamic place and all good and bad together make it more beautiful and not just all good alone. This diversity itself is on war all the time and in no way it is going to be one good good and good type. As long as we have some balance then it will drive the world on a right track.

Take it easy and enjoy what your Politicians do as you do not intend to take that job and some one just hired by you is doing it for your fun just for your 1-vote.

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#11

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/14/2009 2:51 AM

Dear chrisg288

Thanks for reminding me of this forum and giving me a link to it.

My first comment is that people who are politicians are also the people to be governed by who-so-ever becomes the part of the Government. Most of them think it is a good profession for them for which they are willing to contest with challengers. Left over lot is more or less unfit for the job for some reason or the other, however remains affected by the activities of the people who govern them.

How to get best politician is the first priority or how to analyze that one is really fit for the job and will perform?

The second part is watch and see the results and reject the person if found to be unfit for the job.

As politicians job is a highly professional job, there need to be a proper education for it, which we see no-where. Unqualified people are being elected as in no democracy, proper qualifications or abilities or job performance is defined. Democracy is not for the best performance, but to have a say from many, irrespective of their type, credibility of their thinking or being just right or wrong.

Now that we have non-professionals for professional job, lots of other types of manipulatory professional (may be even criminals) enter the Gladiator arena. You have a result of just what the Democracy is today. It does not have a real good constitution and unless that comes in, you can not set the limits for it to perform.

I like some one so I will make him/her a President of the country and it does not matter what that person will do When that person shows his/her bullshit then you start telling that this person is real bad for the nation but who is responsible to put him/her there? Some people cerate mess in the world to such a level that even if you hand them it will only be less for the act. Do we punish such people if they belong to our nation and create problem elsewhere in the world? Fact is that when such people are representing a nation, then other people are also not isolated from their acts and they have permitted them to do so.

Better to have some control over their actions. Simply removing and replacing is no great idea.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/14/2009 4:59 PM

Thank you Shyam,

I agree with you

Great idea to have a school for politicians. There are definitely programs in our universities that teach both Law and Political Science. In fact, most advanced politicians have a background in law. That is one of the disciplines that is most closely related to politics.

There are many metaphors for politics, such as parenting, farming, war, traffic, etc. Sun Tzu says that "All warfare is based on deception." In Politics, we see a lot of deception, even of the public, or non-disclosure to the public, which can amount to the same thing. I would propose the corollary of Sun Tzu's principle, and postulate that "All deception is warfare." Another way of saying this is "Where you find significant deception, then your adversary is already at war with you."

I think this applies to goverments in general. There is much deception and non-disclosure occuring, thus it is fair to assume that they are not your ally or true representative. The public is not at war with the government generally, and so the situation becomes one-sided. This is the reason for proposing an Issue-Based electronic voting system. The citizens can know, almost in real time, what the truth of the public's political will is. This is a tool to be used to defeat deception. So I continue to ask, Is It Possible?

"Better to have some control over their actions." I agree, but... if such a tool can be created, then the politician will have little choice but to become the true representative of the people.

Chris

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/14/2009 8:04 PM

Dear chrisg288

Election voting system comes only to filter among a lot and which lot can reach to the filtering process is equally important.

Voting on the bases of merit and logical points rather than liking or disliking a person will be superior.

I think the job of Politicians is more complex. While learning law and politics is good, innovative qualities to take the country to new horizons using vision and capabilities also plays greater role in success of a country. Politicians themselves need not have all the capabilities, but they should not be dumb not listening to experts or think tank members.

There is a massive layer of brain and muscle that plays a role in building countries future. Politicians who have no vision of country's potential and methods to use it properly can ruin the nation.

A model test on such people is essential who want to be a part of the Government. Pre-qualification and electoral vote on the bases of merits will be ideal.

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#20

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/15/2009 3:59 PM

We are not properly establishing goals.

We are not measuring our progress (change) towards those goals.

We are not officially recording the data of progress (change).

We are not analyzing the data regarding progress (change).

We are not using the feedback from the analysis to correct actions toward improvement.

We are not ensuring that such a system of political accomplishment is surviving leadership changes.

Symptomatic of inaccurate national goal orientation or non-progressive intent, we act out in cyclical election term events and then begin anew. There are of course some functions that proceed from one administration to the next but often the goal orientation is lost.

The people in our democracies do not generally perform their part well and so the system falters, the politicians may well be a nefarious cabal but it is the responsibility of the people to do their part to ensure a correction, the system in the US will function if all of it is used.

Our systems suffer component failures as the people are unaware or do not prioritize their citizenship duties appropriately in comparison to their private concerns. In many cases the history element of education has not been adequately provided by our establishment, resulting a public without the life skills of citizenship among others. Democratic voting is a scary version lacking a progressively goal oriented society.

Sure electronic voting is interesting and I agree with post #3 wholeheartedly. But we have been skipping over the building blocks and need to begin stepping on each one to re-orient ourselves to the task and then we can fulfill it.

The system isn't failing we are failing to use it.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/15/2009 4:09 PM

GA. I certainly can't disagree with that.. but some of the fundamentals are changing. It is a political choice to not teach the basics to citizens. I think immigrants sometimes have more awareness of the system and principles than do lots of citizens, as they are at least trained in it, and require to know the basic system. Also with guys like Cheney and Bush running things, the constitional issues get very muddy, and it is far worse if you don't know how it is supposed to work. With Obama being a constitutional lawyer it could actually be bad..who knows. All we know now is that he is developing debts that won't be paid for decades.

Chris

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#31
In reply to #21

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/24/2009 2:33 AM

some of the fundamentals are changing

Fundamentals don't change, how they are viewed may change if one attempts to interpret rather than observe them literally as written.

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#26
In reply to #20

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/16/2009 2:42 AM

"The system isn't failing we are failing to use it."

hit the nail right on the head. GA.

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#32
In reply to #26

Re: Is it possible to engineer a secure electronic national voting system?

07/24/2009 2:50 AM

One of the basic fundamentals of democracy is that after the voting has occured and the result is known, everyone needs to accept it and live with it for the next period.

It is of coarse important that an external instance needs to verify the legal aspects of what happened while voting and counting but assume that this is OK. A UN organisation which needs to organise all voting processes on earth and tell the local government the result would be not such a bad idea: it would take away the possibility to adapt the votes to local "needs". An electronic system might help the counting as it is undiscussable: the vote is black or white, nothing in between which might help to alter the final result (what happened while counting the Florida votes in 2000)

Here I feel that many people just don't get it: voting reflects the will of the nation and if you're political idea's are not surviving the process then you have to retink you're idea's and how you sold them. If someone from a different social background has made it and you're beloved great wise guy didn't, reflects that the other has more social backup than you'rs.

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