Catastrophic Teleportation

Not only are such stories in sci-fi literature, but also from antiquity.

There is a story that one Apollonius had the ability to snap teleport himself.

Apollonius means "Son of Apollo" which can easily transform to Son of God. as Apollo was a god of the ancient greek pantheon. If you believe that these ancient gods were living beings, then Apollonius was the product of a god and a human mother, which makes him a demigod by blood.

It is also told that Apollonius travelled the ancient world and healed the sick, and performed other miracles. He may also have been the author of several books, under different names, as he travelled from province to province and beyond.... which then became included in the Bible (Mark, Luke, etc.)

(I'm just repeating what I read. can't find the book. but it makes fascinating intrique)

now...back to the plot...

There are many such stories in Indian epics... for exapmle NARADA, who used to travel between heavens to earth very frequently by teleporting

Hello Chris,

Here is a counter to what you read.

"Solomon wrote this proverb to teach his son wise discretion when judging accusations, declarations, and propositions. This is wisdom - the power of right judgment! Truth can withstand intense examination, but most causes are not truth at all. Challenging unsubstantiated claims will often expose them as false and frivolous. "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going" (Pr 14:15)."

Here is a quick apologetics approach that doesn't depend on a lot of specialized historical knowledge or the memorization of lots of information. I have used this material many times over the years with those who raise Apollonius as a Jesus-imitator.

(1) You're right: you don't see a whole religion forming around him -- that should tell you something about the quality of the claims around him compared to the claims around Jesus. While the entire history of the world has been overwhelmed by the impact of Jesus Christ and his followers, only a handful of people have ever even heard of Apollonius, and his impact on human history, society, culture, scholarship, and philosophy is nearly non-existent. What accounts for this difference? The Jesus story far transcends the Apollonius story.

(2) With Apollonius you have nothing surviving from his contemporaries (his followers, his peers, or his enemies). With Jesus you have at least 9 authors, all of whom are eyewitnesses or colleagues of the eyewitnesses; and concerning only the resurrection itself you have at least 6 books (the four gospels, Acts, 1 Corinthians), all written by eyewitnesses or their colleagues, and again regarding the resurrection alone you have at least 7 eyewitness accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Stephen, James) recorded and a list of witnesses of whom nearly 20 are named and over 500 are listed.

(3) With Apollonius you have no documents with material reliably dated to the century in which he lived. With Jesus you have 27 books, dated at the latest within a century of his death and at best within 40 years of his death.

(4) With Apollonius you have a small, scattered cult of followers that did not begin to develop until about 150 years after his life. With Jesus you have a large, widespread cult of followers that numbered in the thousands within six months of his death and had spread to the farthest reaches of the Roman Empire within a generation.

(5) With Apollonius you have no corroboration of any of his alleged miracles -- all you have is the attempt by Philostratus to reconstruct some miracle accounts 120 years after his death. With Jesus you have accounts by the same eyewitnesses and their colleagues listed above, and the testimony of his enemies (the unbelieving Jewish leaders) that he performed miracles, but explained alternatively as by the empowerment of the devil.

(6) With Apollonius you have no reports of miracles authenticating the testimony of his followers. With Jesus you have miracles performed by his apostles and other disciples and the Apostle Paul.

(7) With the story of Apollonius you have a collection of contradictions, misstatements of fact, violations of historical fact, and clashing religious claims. With Jesus you have a clear, consistent, true message unsullied by error, falsification, misstatement, or contradiction.

(8) With the "deification" Apollonius you have a human proving he has earned the right to advance to the level of a god among many gods. With the deity of Christ you have only one God remaining God and taking to Himself an additional nature, humanity (which is logically possible since man is created in the image of God) and then proving his deity by his actions instead of earning his deity by his actions.

(9) With the "resurrection" of Apollonius you have only a couple of vague references to his "disappearance" and to "visions" of him, none of any testable value or necessitating a physical, tangible and testable body, and none of them written within the lifetime of his contemporaries. With Jesus you have records from within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses, by and about eyewitnesses, and with tangible proofs (seeing, touching, eating, talking, holding), amenable to verification by contemporaries.

(10) With Apollonius you have a hodge-podge of gnostic and mystery religion ingredients stirred with liberal doses of inadequate philosophy and superstitious astrology and magic. With Jesus you have a consistent philosophy unmingled with superstition and considered through 2000 years to be the most sublime, eloquent philosophy ever devised.

(11) With the accounts of Apollonius you have a writing style that conforms to mythology and historical fiction (vie romancee in French). With the accounts of Jesus you have historical narrative combining the testimony of believers and the criticisms of unbelievers.

(12) Finally, with Apollonius you have a single, obscure itinerant philosopher who may or may not have lived, a scarce handful of incidental mentions by others long after his lifetime, one account by a partisan government employee writing for a salary 120 years after his lifetime, and no followers or religion after him. With Jesus you have an historical figure attested to by dozens of listed individuals (believers and non-believers) who were eyewitnesses, by hundreds of un-named eyewitnesses, worshipped by thousands of people within the lifetimes of the eyewitnesses, and a religion that stretches unbroken from his own teachings and actions through 2000 years -- during most of which his religion has been the dominant force for human development and advancement.

Who would you rather believe?

Written by Gretchen Passantino

Re: "Who would you rather believe?
Written by Gretchen Passantino"

I would rather believe my own experience -- not what I've read.

Does this mean you don't believe anything before the day you were born? Maybe your experience should tell you to spend more time reflecting before posting

No. I am not against reading but reading can do little to prove or disprove most religious and spiritual beliefs. I was referring to super-sensory experience; i.e., mystical experience. If the previous poster had referenced the points about Apollonius vs. Jesus to experience of that kind, I would give it more credulence than comparing statements about what is written. To verify most knowledge in this world one can try to replicate what the author is stating to test the truth of it (science) or go to the place spoken of to verify the description. In the case of spiritual things (especially those in the past) it isn't very prudent to rely on what is written. A reading of the book of Acts shows that the disciples couldn't agree on what Jesus taught. So how is one to regard written testimony as infallible? Also, since we're doing religion here for the moment, in several places in the New Testament, it is said that Jesus took his disciples aside and "taught them the 'Mysteries of the Kingdom' ". Are these mysteries delineated anywhere? He also said he taught in "parables" to the masses but to the disciples he spoke directly. What instructions did they get that obviously wasn't meant for general distribution?

1) Christ Jesus time and time again appeals to the written testimony of the Old Testament because of the authority behind it.

2) Reported on disagreements between disciples has nothing to do with inerrancy. Paul repuked Peter because of his abandoning the force of the Gospel in favour of the Judizers heresy.

3) Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand (Matthew 13) "Therefore speak I to them in parables because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

"Paul repuked Peter"

I know how he feels...

Jesus was just a man, made into a god at the Council of Nicea. and we have had this bloody fantasy ever since.

Chris,

You make your job way to easy, side with Arius and you can religate everything to fantasy. The Arian heresy continues to crop up here and there in history, the most well known contemporary group being the JW's.

The Council of Nicea did not concoct anything, but confirmed what was believed and taught by the vast majority of bishops with a few dissenters on the side of Arius. What was appealed to to confirm what was finally set forth as the Nicean Creed was the scriptures themselves and particularly the statements of Jesus and the eternal Fatherhood of God.

Hello chris288,

nice one! Very well put!

What "god" or Jesus" or any other 'fantasy figure' has to do with this thread I do not know!

I am glad you mentioned this and that I

am not

the only one to think like this!

Take care.

Hello babybear,

Chris started the Jesus part of this thread. Chris's comment about Nicea is not well put at all, but a sound bite at best. Your presuppositions about the purpose of the Council of Nicea colour your conclusions.

Hi TeslaFan,

3) Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand (Matthew 13) "Therefore speak I to them in parables because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

Is this why you "talk in parables" so we cannot understand?

May I suggest the use of a 'spell checker'

before posting? It would make reading your posts a lot easier.

No insult intended.

"Paul repuked Peter"

Shame on Paul for puking on Peter again! He needs to be rebuked.

Hello SG,

Nice one, but I am not sure if the 'preacher' has a Sense Of Humour that would understand what you say?

Take care..............

LOL... It must be my computer. I'll just have to repoot it

You need to do a little objective research on what you think is infallible testimony regarding the person called Jesus. The canonized "Bible" is far from what you and most Christians perceive. Start with a book called, "Misquoting Jesus".

Obviously your pressuppositions and mine are worlds apart.

If by presuppositions you mean accepting the orthodox Protestant faith I grew up with, then yes, we are worlds apart. Some people are thirsty for more than what is available there. Searching for more with a true heart isn't bad, nor is it blasphemous.

I was just speaking of presuppositions in general, but since you have given some biographical information, it's sad that many grow up under the umbrella of the Covenant and yet reject it or trade it for something of little value. (Genesis 25:29-34)

thirsty for more? (John 4:14)

true heart? (Jeremiah 17:9)

I've been to heaven. There is only one rule. The golden rule. With all this bible crap, christians have murdered raped and conquered their way through the centuries. It is a chopped up re-edited history book. that is all. just slip outside your body, and go through the pinhole in the membrane, and see for yourself. no book needed. no gods needed. they do more harm than good. if you ever needed divinity, it has always been available. you were never saved by the book or jesus. but by the divinity within yourself. all is god.

I wonder if Hitler ever made it out his pinhole? If only he would have, then he would have understood that he was really divine.

Actually Christ Jesus himself said that all the law hangs on two, the problem is you have left out the loving God part and twisted it to loving yourself as you think you are God...very convenient.

Actually Chris, in spite of myself, my sinful nature and in spite of not looking for Him, I was saved by Christ Jesus my Lord because he called me, chose me and gave me the faith to believe.

If the experience you present is legitimate, I would wonder how you measure the truthfulness of your experience? I can make sense out of your experience based on my worldview, but how do you guard against deception?

I remember in the mid 80's when I was a new Christian that I read a book called "The Beautiful Side of Evil" The author claimed to do what you suggest on a regular basis until all was exposed in her "heaven".

Simple. "By their fruits, ye shall know them." And "A house divided cannot stand. No on can serve two masters". If the result of such experience leads to more love of God and thy neighbor, then that is the fruit. Would you condemn such a result?

Most of the human blood spilt on this earth throughout all the wars and fighting in history, is all due to the thanks of religion, one or another. Every Religion out there is "holier than thou" in one way or another, and its just that mentality that makes them seem so silly when they contradict the very values they preach.

General Death Toll Numbers

World War I: 15,000,000

Russian Civil War: 9,000,000

Soviet Union, (Stalin's regime): 20,000,000

World War II: 55,000,000

Post-War Expulsion of Germans from East Europe: 2,000,000

People's Republic of China, (Mao Zedong's regime): 40,000,000

Congo Free State: 8,000,000

Korean War: 2,800,000

Number of deaths that would have been if the crusaders had modern weapons? Incalculable.

What a flippant response.

My religion - Be as good a person to everyone around you as possible.

Simple.

Yes, now, look at the root cause of all those wars. Not the reason the government's at the time claimed was the reason... What is going on right now in the middle east? Is it not all due to religious beliefs?

Take your numbers back further in history...

no.

its due to natural resources. land, oil, etc.

the americans want the oil. the israeli want the land that the palestinians are on, and vice versa. the Iranians want.. um.. freedom. the Iraqi want.. the US to go away.. and the Arabs want..I have no idea.

So... the fact that they have been at war since before America Existed doesn't seem a bit odd?

Its a Holy war, about the holy land... yeah i suppose you can call it a natural resource, but they are fighting for it for religious purposes. They strap bombs to themselves and blow up a bunch of people because they think its what God wants from them. The US just sees a good opportunity to get in while the gettins good. They are fighting for religion, we are in it to take their resources.

I'd like to taper this conversation off, or start up another one in a more appropriate location. I definitely have been enjoying the discussion though, thank you.

Hello chrisg288,

I guess you could say wars since the World War 11 in almost any Country are driven by oil, gold, diamonds, and land. But there is still 'tyrants' (like Robert Mugabe) the leader of Zimbawe who is a tyrant, but is not in a war?

A lot of the leaders in Africa seem set on letting their people die of starvation rather than letting the donated food supplies through. They steel the food and sell it but there is still no food in the shops.

You would think there was enough to go round but, with greedy and people with no moral around, you hardly need 'wars' to cause killing? It is a bloody awful way to live but there is nothing I can do about it I am afraid.

I lost my way a little there, sorry.

Keep in touch please.

and the Arabs want..I have no idea.

The bible notes that Ishmael had 12 sons, who all fought with each other.

Some things don't change.

Hi RVZ717,

I have never understood this dichotomy between every religion. Each is there to make death more acceptable, and each is a 'newer version' and 'more honest' and 'true' than the previous or next!!!!!!!!!!!

It makes me sick. They are so bloody self religious. I find it arrogant 'beyond belief' (pardon the pun), that a person can think it correct to go to another Country to try and 'persuade' them one religion is a better flavour than the one they have know all their life.

I think it a good idea to save and send money to the people who need it but, have you actually listened to the Lyrics.........."Do they know its Christmas"

................ Well know they don't, because the people in the Countries being helped are not Christian! What an insult that record must be to non-christians.

=

I am not religious at all and will not answer any more questions about it. If THAT is arrogant, then so be it. It is the only subject I hate talking about, but found the subject mentioned, and I have tried not to say very much or anything, but I will not be saying anything else about these religious 'fairy tale dreamers'!

How does it make sense that some 'pray' to 'Elephants' and others to a 'man'. How can any subject which is so diverse as this be taken seriously at all, when each religion claims to be THE ONE

to believe in. I feel I am 'wasting' my words as I know there will probably be a 'righteous believer' who tries to talk.

I mean no insult to anyone!

Just do not try and explain the various religions to me,............... please.

'I mean no insult to anyone!' EXCEPT 'these religious 'fairy tale dreamers'!

After that vitriolic diatribe I wouldn't try to discuss anything with you Babybear.

If in the future you find an off-topic comment posted by me I would counsel you to steer clear just in case there might be some "religious" overtone that inflames your sensibilities.

Hello TeslaFan,

I apologise for the entire post. It was a bad time for me and I do not actually recall writing it.............. Sorry once again.

Just to say I am not religious. That is what I should have written. What I wrote, I do not recognise at all.

Actually, almost all cases blamed on religion are political or opportunistic, with religion used as an excuse.

If you look at the histories more closely you will see that this is so, but it is much easier to take the superficial view and blame "religion".

I agree.

That was basically my point.

Hello chrisg288,

Please forgive the miss spelling of your user name last time.

I completely and utterly agree with your entire post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Virtually every "WAR" ever, was because of some Tyrant putting forth his ideas "in the name of Religion.

This is not a religious site. Anyone interested in preaching to others, including me, should go and start their own thread on a religious site, or start a blog here on CR4. Though I doubt it would be appropriate. Get the message, your 'god speak' is not wanted here.

This thread is: Catastrophic Teleportation

I come here for mechanical discussions not any religion stuff, which I find insulting. On this site it is a waste of space. And in case the one putting forward this religion nonsense does not realise it, they are on the wrong tack entirely!

I am sorry if this insults anyone else, but this is an Engineering site after all.

If you want Philosophy or religion go somewhere else. No insult intended. And do not read 'between the lines' for 'meanings and thoughts' I have not actually written.

As you may have realised chrisg288, this religion stuff ' gets my goat!'

babybear,

This is my last post to you regarding this "discussion"

"no insult intended" I guess this went out the window

You don't have to read off topic comments, that is why that option is available.

Again, I didn't start these off topic comments, Chris initiated this with his early post.

Great chrisq.

There are good people and bad people in believers.

There are good people and bad people in non-believers

But when good people from believers behave bad, there is god or religion behind them.

There was a famous mystic named Kabir. So the story goes a learned religious scholar came to his house with a cart load of books and demanded that Kabir come out and debate with him -- due to the fact that Kabir was teaching "heretical" teachings for his time. It is said that Kabir came out and when the stranger informed him of his intent, Kabir said, "How can we ever agree? For you speak of what you have read while I speak of what I have seen."

Jesus was more than a man. In fact, a fuller appreciation of who/what he really was comes from studying the lives and "experiences" of the many mystics who have lived. Here's a short list: Buddha, Zoroaster, Rumi, Nanak, Kabir, Lao Tse, Jacob Boehme, Meister Eckhardt, and many other that can be found under the general heading of "Mysticism".

I'd say it's time to let the intellectual wrangling be. You only quote references to written words while someone like Chris bases his belief on his own experience. If you never seek such experience you probably won't have it. If you're content with your spiritual life, peace be with you. Intellectual discussions about spiritual matters are very limited.

Hi TeslaFan,

I for one, am not 'best pleased' with you quoting the Bible at me!

This is going to end up with us discussing your ideas and thoughts, rather than the ideas of the OP!

Please note.........ADMIN!

This is not the right or correct place to discuss Christian values, especially when there is no mention of them in the thread question!

Babybear,

1) I have not quoted any scripture at you.

2) Those verses were specific to Guest's reply and had personal focus to Guest

3) It was posted as off topic, yet still following the proceeding comments by Chris and Guest

4) You weren't involved until much later, and I still didn't quote Bible verses "at you"

5) Everyone wants to claim tolerance until the Christian enters the discussion and Jesus Christ is dissed. Lets see the PC crowd freak if I start attacking Allah.

Guest,

(John 6:66-68)

This is where the rubber meets the road.

Hello TeslaFan,

Obviously your pressuppositions and mine are worlds apart.

Did you mean : "Presupposition" or :assumption:

Apart from your spelling, I can understand the reason for any wrong spelling of 'English' words, when the are so difficult,..................

If you do not say what your ideas are, how can I and the other members tell how much we differ?

no insult intended!

I give you high marks for enthusiasm and research.

Hello Chris,

I appreciate numerous comments that you post on CR4 and threads you have started have been very thought provoking, I just think comments hung out there that diminish the person of Christ Jesus need rebuttal.

I just watched a good movie... Relegilous. I recomend a watch (with an open mind of course)...

Teleporting, being in more than one place at a time, etc. are "lower" abilities that keep one trapped in the 3 worlds.

Many Google links about Apollonius. A good summary: here.