How can we find a foamless soap ?

Soap as in a product to clean your hands?

Foanless soap? very good question indeed.

Some soaps actually have little foam and yet clean well. It depends on their cleaning property. Soap being neutral in pH near 7, will otherwise find hard to react. Only initial thinking was to push away the dirt along with foam. Now that you don't want foam, then it should desolve the matter and hence either has to be acidic or basic in nature. This may also lead to corrosion or erosion of the surface.

First thing to do is to know your material property, its dirt property and then get the right reaction agent for it. Perhaps the ultrasound way of cleaning is much better as it pushes water or solution in and out in agitated way and foam is not required. Hence, look at the cleaning process rather at designing the soap itself.

If soap is your primary business then think of the users and type of contaminants they may have and some short of mild reaction agent may work without foam production.Foam is due to large surface tension and trapped air. Just neutralize the surface tension and there will be no foam. Add an agent to break the surface tension wall.

I don't know whether you would classify 'Swarfega' as a soap, but its an excellent cleaning agent and does not foam....

Not sure what's its made from though... Another excellent cleansing agent is pork fat! Yep! if you have oil on your hands and haven't any soap etc... then reach inside your ham sandwich and use the ham fat to rub away the oil and grease...

It really works! But you have to wash your hands afterwards!!

John.

Dear John

Well, Soap is oil and washing soda. oil does dissolve many things then it sticks to the cloths badly.

This may be of good reading.

http://home.att.net/~cat6a/org_mat-V.htm

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blsoap.htm

How about dishwashing soap (used in dishwashing machines)? It is specifically designed not to foam.

bartending soap?

Depends on what you're trying to get off and what it's on.

For truly impressive cleaning of things that can get hot, use steam above 400F. If it can be cooled, liquid nitrogen poured on a tile floor will remove years of paste wax and miscellaneous grime faster than you can see. Then it will disappear. (No mopping at all!)

Jet-Dry makes water work better and doesn't foam. That, too is found in domestic automatic dishwashers.

To be really silly, you could hire a bunch of people from [insert poverty stricken country name here] with pins to pop the bubbles. Rusty pins work best.

Come to think of it there's not much foam comes out of a sand-blaster, either.

Dishwasher soap.

Bob

Many soaps used for dish washing may be extremly bad like DDT if they leave a trace of them and get into your food. It is always very good to wipe out using some good cloth. Detergents are some times poisonous and do not degrade in nature for very long. If you question any soap company for your bad health then they may be in soup for sure and you can take over their factory in no time only by investing in lawer fee. In India, Hindustan Liver Limited, the manufacturer of brand "Sunlight" soap proudly used to print for a prize money if any one proves that it is bad for health. They no longer do so now. Now there is low pH soap. We also have beauty soap for men and women. They will soon have some for Dogs and Cats and perhaps Cows and Buffalows as well. One company called Orbit is using teath whitener for Buffalows in their advet. You can also have some soap for these creatures. They make these gimmicks of trade all the time as there are billion people to buy some soap or the other.

Worst thing may be they may have live soap using bacteria to eat dirt on the human body. I am taking patent to this idea such that no one should make it within my life time. Hence, hereafter bacteria soap is my copyright and to be patented design. If any of your soap contain any baterial stull then inform me immediately.

I understand the motivation [ & I agree ],

Your patent is only meaningful If you can afford to defend it

Someone w/deep pockets, can start production & suck you dry [ $'s ] in lawyer fees [$100k+] before you can stop them or even get a temporary restraining order!

Please make sure you insulate yourself legally.

Of course this bit of advice comes through the filter of The USA legal system.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On to the question of foamless soap

It really does depend on what your trying to do, clean or sanitize.

Water-based parts washer solutions are very low foam.

As mentioned dishwasher soap

Quat type cleaners are ammonia based

The main active ingredient in dish washing machine detergent is NaOH or sodium hydroxide which caustic. The concentration of NaOH and what other additives are there depends on the brand and application. Some commercial dish washing detergents are straight NaOH stabilized with some sort of solidifying agent. While I wouldn't recommend using it for personal cleaning it can be a very useful cleaning agent for things that can tolerate the caustic solution. Compared with most detergents NaOH, provided it is dilute enough to reduce the pH to a safe level, is fairly benign in the environment. Personally I would prefer cooking, eating utensils and containers cleaned in a dishwasher over hand washed ones any day. For me the important factor is hygiene, there are very few pathogens that will survive a dishwasher compared to bacterial culture mediums that a sink full of warm water and a towel are.

Depending on what you are cleaning you could dish washing detergent or for that matter straight but appropriately diluted NaOH, but make sure you don't come in direct contact with it.

Not to tout brands here, but I clean almost everything with Windex.

works on stings cuts and abrasions too

free the free radicals

Yucca(from the grocery store) has natural saponins and is used as a soap..also as a poultice to draw inflamation...ancient wonder drug..

Thank you for all your comments,

Actually I would like to find a good surfactant material to blend with oil to make a water soluble fluid that can be used in collants for machine without causing so much foam.

I tried on some machine for some formula but it make so much foam.

Thx

NAT

Such solutions already exist. They have replaced oils as cutting fluid coolants in almost all large machinng operations. Small parts made on lathes and screw machines may still be machined in oil because the smaller machine makes containment much easier and the oil is relatively easy to remove from small, simple parts. Oil alone is very messy because it creates a fine mist in the air, is hard to remove from complex parts, and is a fire hazard.

Water alone does not make a very good coolant for machining because it is unstable and "spot boils" at high temperatures which exist at the point where the cutting tool contacts the surface of the workpiece. Also, water alone does not provide much lubricity and for ferrous parts, rust will build up very quickly.

I do not know your location, so it would be hard to recommend a coolant that is readily available to you, but Blaser Swisslube does distribute their cutting oils and water based coolants all over the world from their home in Switzerland. They have water-based coolants using mineral oils, vegetable oils, and even sythetics.

Foaming is always a problem in machining operations because of the agitation that the liquid receives, not just in the spraying of the parts, but also in the recirculation system, pumping, and filtering, particularly with modern cyclonic filters. When we set up machines, the technicians had to be very careful to use the right ratio of water to coolant oil, using a special mixing pump which blended water and oil together as the tank was filled. He would take a sample and put it into a special gauge called a refractometer, which checked the ratio by the refraction of light. He also had a dry powder chemical he could add if foaming became a problem. I do not know what was in the powder. I was only told it was "anti-foaming agent".

The key is that the oil must remain in suspension, like the solids in milk, so they must be made into very fine particles (droplets) by lowering their surface tension. This is what the surfactants (soap-like material) which are added help to do. Otherwise, the oil will rise to the surface and become a breeding ground for bacteria, as the warm temperature makes it ideal for bacterial growth. If this happens, the smell is awful, and the coolant must be disposed of. Normally the pumps will have an intake near the bottom of the post-filtration "clean" tank so they do not take in this "tramp" oil, and skimmers are used on the top to remove the oil layer from both the "dirty" tank and the "clean" tank

Using a ready-made product like Blasocut from Blaser Swisslube has many advantages over "do-it-yourself". While it may seem costly compared to the cost of materials alone by "home-brew", there will be no waste by mistakes and errors in creating a new formula, you will gain from the years of research the company has put into creating and perfecting their products. The results will be much better than anything you can come up with on your own. This will result in lower operating costs, longer tool life, better surface finish on parts, and increased productivity by allowing higher speeds and feeds.

I am not, nor ever was, an employee of Blaser, but I did work for a machine builder who used their products successfully in starting up new machines, and parts manufacturers (our customers) who used it were very happy with the results.

Thx for the recommendation.

The point is our machine is not so sophisticating where tramp oil generate more and did not contain any tramp oil filter or device to separate tramp oil. Furthermore we have no central tank to deal with coolant maintainance (they only circlate inside the machine) therefore the bacteria keep build up so easily and very serious during the year end vacation. I have to replace the oil every new year even I just refill it less than 3 weeks. Due to our country climate is very warm for the whole year.

I understand that many suppliers have such good coolants that have many characteristics that solved the problem Like Castrol, Houghton, Idemitsu, Yoshiroken and including Blaser. But what occurs for water soluble oil is

1) bacteria on tramp oil surface (even some claim that their product is impossible for bacteria to eat, but bacteria still eat TRAMP OIL)

2) smell (Amine and bacteria)

3) Foam

I realized that these bacteria may become worst if we do not have tramp oil filter, which in future I may need to work on it.

The current situation is SO MANY FOAM. I tried to use anti foaming agent. Although it works but somehow it reduced the product lifetime and make the process so dirty.

That is the reason why I was looking for any people who use Foamless soap in water soluble oil or people who understand these technology. Foamless soap is the soap that lower the surface tension while generate so few foam (or in possibly can easily destroy the foam to prevent foam buildup)

Best Regards

Nat

When I was a high school in the 70s we used a soluble oil as a coolant for lathes, shapers, drills and milling machines and I can't remember ever having a problem with either bacteria building up in it or it decomposing.

I can't remember what it was called but from memory it came as a powder that we mixed with water to make the coolant/lubricant up. I have no idea if it is still manufactured and it may well have been discontinued due to environmental or health concerns.

Has anybody else ever seen or heard of the coolant? If anybody has I too would be interested in what it was called in if it is still available.

Masu,

Machine Tools in an academic or research environment (high schools, collleges, trade schools, model shops, etc) with relatively large down-time periods and sporadic usage usually will not have the heat build-up that occurs in a production environment, where the work is often 24/7, or at least will run 8-16 hours continuously, 5-6 days each week.

I am not sure if your "powder" would be effective in his production shop, to either reduce foaming or bacteria. Probably your chemical was nothing more than a simple rust preventative, which is very important for steel and cast iron machines using water as a coolant and/or machine ferrous materials like iron and steel. Water without oil can be an effective coolant for short periods of time doing light duty work such as aluminum, brass, and mild steel, or if feed rate and machine speeds are relatively low, which is typical in academic work. "Powder" could be an anti-foaming agent, but without oil, water-based coolant does not foam much.

I don't know how effective a soapy-water solution, without oil, would be as a production coolant. I, too, would be interested to hear if anyone has experience with something like that.

I have used soapy-water solution in a burnishing operation, where stamped parts are tumbled on each other with steel shot mixed in, to remove oxidation and give a tin-lead plated surface a very nice shiny appearance. We used plain Ivory liquid dishwashing soap because it left the least amount of residue of anything we tried. However, I could not describe any foaming characteristics because these tumbling machines did not actually agitate the solution very much.

Natthaphon,

I came across some information on pine-tree based chemicals used in water-based coolant applications, some with oil and some without.

You may want to check this company (Georgia-Pacific Chemicals) webpages and direct your query to their customer service department

Here is the URL for the Pine Chemicals page on Metalworking and Lubricants:

http://www.gp.com/chemical/products.asp?RC=1&KW=&BS=23%7CMetalworking&DC=4%7CPine%20Chemicals

This could be what you are looking for.