Refigeration Motor

Hi roy hammy,

you said: No outside power with exception of heat from atmosphere.

Sounds like you want to construct an over-unity device.

I'm sorry, but it will NEVER work.

Mike

It is not a perpetual motion since there is abundant energy in the heat and I have seen a system working on video and although skeptical want to see what I can do. Have had many suggestions as to proper drive motor and it appears that the vane type may be good compromise. A shady character Dennis Lee is displaying a device infront of large crowds and has invited engineers to find a scam. Worth taking a look at. Not much different than a steam engine except the fuel is atmospheric heat rather than combustable fuel

What is the quantity of heat recovery in terms of kW???

Conversion of heat energy into mech energy via electrical energy needs complete understanding of the system parameters. Vane type motor seems a good choice but practical difficulties to be checked in field.

No idea at this time depends on size and number of evaporators. refigerant boils at -40F and system will have about 60 lbs of refigerant. Have not even decided on which refigerant but will not be ammonia. From the charts the refigerant will reach pressure of 150 PSI on the way to the motor. Since I have a limited budget I will have to research the choices of compressor also and the tubing sizes. I will use a water cooled condensor to recover the heat from the system for possible home use.

You say the refrigerant boils at -40F? You know which refrigerant you are considering then,do you know the pressure at which evaporation occurs at -40F? Or is this at atmospheric?

You say the pressure leaving the evaporators is 10Bar,You may have discharge pressures of 30Bar +?

Have you considered R410A? What about CO2?What sort of COP would you expect?Would an air-cooled cond be better?Especially useful for large ambient swings day/night etc. so as to keep the efficiency as high as possible.

Id be interested in seeing a few drawings,up to know it seems like another candidate for the museum PWS mentions.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

"No outside power with exception of heat from atmosphere."

The volume of standard air (10^oC to 40^oC) required to extract any useful heat from it is astronomical and physically impossible...unless you are next to a geothermal source such as a hot spring or geyser.

"heat recovery system that is powered by the flow of refigerant from the evaporator."

You may be able to recycle some of the heat in the cooling element, BUT...extracting energy in any form (inertial, pressure etc) between the link of refridgerant reservoir and evapourator will not be practical or energy efficient.

Why don't you examine the possibilities with extraction of heat from solar source...much more efficient going to the source of atmoshperic heat

I will have solar in the day time. Hot goes to cold and after the condensor process from compression the gas expends to about -43F there for any thing above that will transfer heat. Of course I will have to have several large evaporators suggested size 4x8 and four of them. As they build up heat they also build up pressure and this pressure will power the motor that will run the compressor. Maybe

Well, if you have the money and the time, go for it. Just be mindfull of elements you choose to do your work are not toxic or explosive.

I think by memory that Helium is a good choice. What isotopes of Helium, I cannot remember without looking. But there are two types of Helium isotopes I know that do work together for the purposes of refridgerant and work in similar fashion to the ammonia, Hydrogen and water refridgerant concept.

The only issue with using Helium that you will need to resolve is that Helium likes to equilibrate meaning it will leak over time from an encapsulated source.

I am looking at a product 502A enviromentaly friendly and very efficient. this project may take some time to get going due to full slate of activities.

502A or R502,low temperature refrigerant,high performance........Its a CFC!!!!

No it is NOT Environmentally friendly.

Its been banned in Europe for 14 years.

According to MSDS it appears to be a hydrocarbon BP -52F and 502A is what I was refering to.

The fly in the ointment is the second law of thermodynamics. At some stage heat has to be rejected to the atmosphere whatever the system configuration is. This is not possible unless the temperature of the rejector (Radiator or whatever) is higher than ambient. Finally it means that heat is attempted to be extracted from a lower temperature to a higher without energy expenditure. Afraid not possible. Bioramani

The motor runs the compressor there for there will be a high pressure side which raises the temp for extraction in a water cooled condensor.

"I threw away the refigeration manual and all engineering data ...".

You may find that a basic understanding of engineering principles, along with a realistic estimate of efficiencies and losses may help you in the long run.

If this was possible (economically) everyone would be doing it. Personally if I had a good source of warmth I'd look at running a small fan in an insulated duct.

Hello roy,

I think you may find the refrigerant is under pressure even when turned off. And any refrigerant will likely escape as a gas?

I 'Fridge' is usually designed to be self contained and it most likely will not be able to drive this 'pump' you intend to put inline.

A recovery system does probably need a pump but how are you going to power it from the warmth of the back of the fridge or freezer?

I would sit down and design yourself a system rather than taking any notice of a 'quack' selling stuff in a Market or something. Completely the wrong track to take.

I wish you luck in this project though, and please keep in touch with updates?

Hello R,

This topic has been discussed on previous threads. I will include a link that will take you to latest discussion.

Before investing in a motor I would suggest you thoroughly engineer the project on paper. The numbers say it's possible, but that does not mean it's practical or even doable.

I have thought of a similar project for years,hopefully you've solved some of the engineering problems that I haven't been able to.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/427176/Re-Geothermal-Heat-Pumps

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/40798#newcomments

The first link will take you to my last comment for what it's worth. The second will take you to the general discussion, it has a wealth of information that should be of interest to you. Also there is a link on this thread that will take you to a previous discussion.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Hello Roy:

I see my voice recognition software or text editor did something in the introduction to the last post, I didn't catch, sorry about that.

Also if you could please post a link to that demonstration you were talking about I would like to look at it.

this is one site but there is an excellent video (movie) called Zero Point Energy that delves into many inventors and theory's. Some of it has come true such as Casmire Effect etc. Maybe you can find the movie on line my step son got it for me and I have watched it many times absolutly fascinating experiments.

I have been the HVAC trade for over thirty years. The best I have seen for heat/ energy recovery is by heat reclaim or heat pump. Nothing is free. Energy is allways lost some where. It is that enrtopy thing. If you have an unlimitied buget, you may improve on the existing systems. Have you thought of a Sterling engine?

The heat in the air is no cost may not be free but in all systems they do not try to use that heat to run any part of the system. Everyting is outside power. This is not like a refigerator but it is a closed loop system with supposedly excess heat to be extracted and put to some other use. My principal is to try to use the energy (pressure) created when the freon warms to run the pump that runs the compressor. As long as the absorbed heat is extracted in condensor then it may function to some degree.

"closed loop system"

Will have to say in all honesty you are barking up the wrong tree thinking you will get a 100% closed system.

Guest suggested a Stirling Engine. I would agree with the operating principles of that engine and efficiency of that system with regards to refridgeration in conjunction with using Helium isotopes.

Low energy consumption and crazy low temperatures (cryogenic) can be reached with the Stirling Engine. Perhaps you should look at storing excess energy with solar panels into a battery bank, so your idea can run at night as well as the day.

With you all the way.

Check out dasturbine.com

Fully closed loop.

Co2/R77 refridgerant.

Works at any thermal temperature above +0* Celsius.

Wattage or megawattage, makes no difference except to turbine size, greater heat smaller turbine.

Those without high intelligence will allways display it by saying it cant be done.

Hang in there.

The Professor.

The world can no longer ignore the elephant in the room.