Help with an Old Wives Tale

Looks like you've got some kissin' up to do! YWROADRUNNER

YWRR,

You're an engineer. Do an experiment. Here's how:

Find a spot in the garage where there isn't much of a draft. Make a bed out of some old rags and cardboard.

Go down to the supermarket and buy several brands of frozen dinners. Practice heating them on the manifold of your car on the way home. Eat them with whatever utensils you find in your toolbox.

While at the supermarket, stop by the library and takes out a copy of the Kama Sutra. This may help you remember connubial pleasures in your lonely twilight years.

Take all your clothes, pile them on the lawn, and pour any weird BBQ sauce you had in the fridge on them. Practice washing them at the Jiffy car wash by hanging them on the floormat rack. Better yet, wear them and you also get the ocassional bath.

Pile all your money, your 401k, and anything else of value on the garage floor and set it afire to stay warm. It's better than giving them to her lawyer.

Now, write the following experimental conclusion: "She is right. How could I have doubted?"

Okay guys I see who's wearing the pants. However you all have made some good points.

My thanks to Jaxy, for giving me a way to say you're right Dear without choking on the words. Lynlynch for your straightforward solution.

And special thanks to TVP45 for providing the experiment proving lynlynch made a valid recommendation.

How could I have been so foolish as to employ thermal dynamics and logic in an argument with a woman.

Obviously I neglected to factor in all the variables in the experiment. Like food, warm place to stay, something warm to sleep with etc.

And go brush that hair of yours while you're at it...

And stay off my lawn!!!

"How could I have been so foolish as to employ thermal dynamics and logic in an argument with a woman."

"Yes dear", would have saved you a lot of grief.

How could I have been so foolish as to employ thermal dynamics and logic in an argument with a woman.

I think that it was exceptional logic that taught her not to defrost meat in warm water so that she doesn't potentially get her family sick. Her argument may have been flawed as to the exact reason why defrosting in cold water was the way to go, but the logic that warm water increases the rate of bacteria is solid.

Don't act like women can't carry logically sound arguments - that is sexist, whether that statement was how you intended it or not.

GA -- My wife is handicapped so I do 90% of the cooking. She loves hamburger and will often wait till the last minute before she decides what she wants for dinner. We buy hamburger 5-6 pounds at a time at Costco (western USA) and I divide and freeze it in 1 pound packages.

What I do is defrost it in the microwave at about a 20% power setting for 7-8 minutes checking it a couple of times to make sure it isn't browning (actually cooking) anywhere on the surface. If I don't think I'll remember to check it I'll set it on 10% power for about twice the time. You'll have to experiment with this a bit because microwaves vary in power. The idea is that you want to catch it before any of the surface starts cooking. Once you know your own microwave you can repeat the time and power setting that works. The idea is to understand that it takes time for the temperatures in the meat to even out. That's the reason for the low defrosting rate.

1/2 hour a room temperature or a bit above is harmless if you are going to either cook or rerefrigerate defrosted hamburger.

Ed Weldon

Hello Ed:

The shopping and cooking chores have been somewhat reallocated around here since I've been off with a work injury. I'm really good at picking up things on sales like hamburger but unfortunately I'm a little remiss in just tossing it in the freezer, not bad when you're dealing with a small packs, but the last sale was 5 pound packages.

It is almost impossible to defrost 5 pounds of hamburger in the microwave evenly. I'm going to have to follow your lead and break it up into smaller packages. I like hamburger but once it's defrosted eating it several nights in a row becomes old in a hurry.

I agree 100% with all, even if so much fear of bacteria is little paranoic....

You forget simple facts like 2 hours needed for one bacteria replication, and thawing of this hamburger should not take more than half hour.

There is truth that it seems that hot water would thaw it faster, but it is not so. It would take time for temperature to get transfered from surface to center of the hamburger mass, and it depend on speed of temperature transfer inside of hamburger.

By Your logic fastest way to thaw it would be to put it on fire directly, but You would get burned hamburger that could have ice inside...... Therefore, Your wife was right, and You were not listening her explanation about molecules juggling inside.

However, if You use microwave owen to thaw or defrost hamburger, it would be fastest way, since microwave influence water molecules trough anything organic regardless of thickness. I heard (but I cant say if it is correct) that You can cook frozen hamburger directly in microwave owen, but not together with dough as it would start burning in time when burger is just thawed out.....

I forgot to say that I had similar argument with my wife about making Seitan from wheat flour. She would make dough and put it in cold water overnight. I knew from chemistry that it is question of polymerisation of glucose where water molecules are added, so I reasoned this process must be more effective in warm than in cold water since molecules would move faster.

What to say? Obviously I speed up molecules too much and therefore precluded polymerisation to take place. Obviously, practical knowledge was more valuable, even if my wife did not know what is going on and why water should be cold.... As usually, setting up theory without having taken into consideration all parameters or starting with wrong assumption cannot bring expected results.

I was lucky that my experiment could be used to make pancakes, and I was not forced to throw it all.......

Therefore, I would be very careful not to try to improve millennia old recipe, specially when it gives results as expected :-))

Moral is: if You are not professional cook that may know some better way to do something than simple housewife, and You are not cooking food in the house, then listen to one who knows best from practice or generations long tradition that went form one knee to another.......

You may be professional engineer and understand laws of thermodynamic or even theory of relativity, but Your wife is expert for cooking so remember this next time and don't try to be wise.

I just remembered one other reason why cold water is better than warm for thawing hamburgers: When water is warm, then it would fast warm water from thawed ice on the bottom of hamburger mass, and surely this water would leak out of hamburger mass instead staying inside. This way Your hamburger would tend to be drier than before. Also, warm water would try to rise up trough hamburger but would encounter cold water from thawed ice coming down, therefore process would be slowed down instead of fastened! Cold water would let still colder water to go to the bottom unimpeded, and then in thermal transfer contact with cold water it would be unable to get warm enough to start rising. It is counterproductive to thaw hamburger fast as if it is done slowly meat would retain water and be more juicy and soft....

Anybody find any flaws in my conclusions?

I didn't think we would actually have to state the facts here but....

heat transfer rate is based on the difference in temperature between the two points being measured.

Sustaining the heat transfer rate is based upon the amount of heat capacity in either body.

If you have warm water with lots of volume as compared to the volume of hamburger, then the defrosting will absolutely (imho) be faster than if the same amounts of cold water and hamburger, due to the larger temperature difference. (assuming the same start temperature for the hamburger)

I personally would be shocked to my bones to find this time tested law of nature to be wrong. (but always willing to learn. ) There are simply more btu's being transferred and available to be transferred, if the water is warm. (where does the heat (btu's) come from to defrost, if the water is cooler?)

or perhaps we should have more female HVAC engineers?

Chris

I just toss it in the microwave on high for a few minutes and cook it strait away.

Why waste time with the warm of cold water method that can take an hour or more for hard frozen hamburger to thaw out. 8 minutes in my microwave takes two pounds of lean ground beef from frozen brick to ready to grill burger patties!

As it thaws I just stop at a four minutes and take the ready to go layer off and make a burger patty. When I am done with that one there is enough thawed to make the next one. and so on.

Hello tcmtech:

It sounds like our preferred methods are pretty much the same. I usually use the auto defrost but you still end up with the outside of the hamburger starting to brown and the center frozen.

I just strip away the part that's defrosted, and put the frozen part back in the meat keeper. That's when I'm cooking for myself and not following explicit instructions. Needless to say she doesn't like the microwave for defrosting hamburger.

I've lost a few bets to my partner... but I've won a few too. I think it is important to make it fun.

Chris.

PS.... she loves Wendy's burgers.. I can go down the street and back in the same time it takes to defrost hamburger... the only trick is to anticipate the desire, and you too can be a hero!

Hello Chris:

This is actually been a lot of fun for both me and my wife. And actually there's been a lot of good information on this thread. Just goes to show you never know where your to learn something.

I see one of the guys took exception to my intentionally ribbing her in my post but that was part of the fun. And she is now conceded that the hamburger would probably defrost faster in warm water and admitted that she had heard somewhere that it was better to defrost it in cold water.

If you can't have fun with a friendly argument with your wife I ask you who can have fun arguing with. She's actually gotten more laughs out of this thread that I have.

PS: You will have to admit it is going to the extremes to post a question about defrosting hamburger on the science and engineering website. But heck it was her idea.

I've had the 'hot water to make ice cubes' discussion.. and when we buy pre-cooked chicken that are still hot when we get home from the store.. I say leave it on the counter to let it cool to room temp before putting it in the fridge...

I've just learned to keep the bets low, as I don't score greater than 50%... but it is no use citing thermal laws.... just put yer money down and get the proof, and don't expect a 'gee you know I was wrong' if you win... just "Humph"... end of discussion.. (and try not to cackle maniacally.. you don't get any luv for that)

Chris

Lolll ... SAY it, Brother!

And you're right on all counts.

Hot water for ice cubes ... *Braaaaap* ... It's actually cold water for boiling. Cold water has less air dissolved in it, so it takes less time and energy to warm. Hot water has more air, for which energy is consumed by de-airing before water boils, and de-airing takes more energy than warming cold water to domestic-hot-water temperature. For best effect, take off the aerator cap on your tap to minimize air presence in your water.

Add to that the fact that heating water on the stove displaces heating water in your domestic water tank, so more or less no net loss from stove-heating.

Lastly, as concerns using hot water to make ice cubes ... as the water cools, it'll release some of the air dissolved in it (cold water holds less air than hot water does), meaning that your ice cubes will be slightly smaller than if you'd used cold water.

Cheers! DZ

P.S. As concerns self-respect ... put up with a few *Harumphs* at first, then enjoy your new-found Olympian smugness when she learns to not argue with you.

The "female logic" mine depend on depends on what her mother told her. And the only way I can win an argument is if I can have her mother to agree. (people 6' down is not very agreeable)

On thermo dynamics she persist that it is better

1. to let the tap run until the water is rather hot.

2. Fill the kettle to the top (past the max mark)

2.1 it takes 1c to heat a kettle therefore it is better to heat more water.

3. reboil whenever water is needed.

proof - see how fast it boils!!!!!!

(yes dear -otherwise . . . )

How can I get her mother to see the light??

Thermite... Block of ice to cheeseburgers in 3 seconds!

HELLO YWR,[P]

I hate to put a stick in your spokes, but erm, you can cook beef or any burger from frozen.

If you thaw it and do it in warm, or warm to hot water, it will start to cook. I learned the hard way like you, and before that I tried to defrost some chops in pretty warm water. The container leaked, and I ended up with grey coloured chops before they were cooked! About 4 mm had been semi cooked. I dread (now) to think of the bugs breeding on them. Needless to say I had a bad stumach a few hours later.

Take care and cook from the freezer. Only ground meat though, anything else should be thawed in cold water.

Take care.

My response often in these type circumstances is a flat, "due to my experience I'm doing it this way". Then correction is not an argument but a discussion of merit.