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# Non Math

08/24/2009 11:25 PM

The universe consists of an infinite number of stars The universe consists of an infinite number of galaxys Since stars are components of galaxys How is this possible?

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#1

### Re: Non Math

08/24/2009 11:31 PM

How do you know that these statements are true?

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#2

### Re: Non Math

08/24/2009 11:43 PM

Are they true? I was taught them in school! If you Know them to be untrue ,please enlighten me Thank you for your response

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Anonymous Poster
#3

### Re: Non Math

08/24/2009 11:52 PM

There are not infinite stars in infinite galaxies.

Infinity is SO freaking big you, nor I can even begin to imagine.

If there were an infinite number of stars in an infinite number of galaxies - there would then MUST be an infinite number of YOU in the universe.

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#4

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:02 AM

Thank you . How so?

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Anonymous Poster
#6

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:05 AM

Let us start from the more basic.

And then review the "easily" imaginable, basic number, that is just as easy to communicate (say) as "infinity" - the Googolplex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googolplex

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#8

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:17 AM

My dog will play baseball all day with me! but she can't seem to understand a "Batting Average" is this what you are saying?

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#9

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:30 AM

Didn't mean to "say" that at all - but an interesting analogy.

I just wanted to try and illustrate what "infinity" is, but probably should have just said, as Jack of All Trades did, that it is theoretical.

And to respond to your question about a "limitless" (which is just another way of saying infinite) universe to Jack's answer - I will say this, NO ONE KNOWS. And if they think they know, tell them they don't and just come to grips that there are some (many) things that we don't understand. Heck, we don't even fully understand things on earth - I forget the figure, but how much of the ocean floor have we not even seen with our own eyes.

An interesting video to try and put things into perspective is here -

And remember, infinite is IMPOSSIBLE to understand in common terms.

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#11

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:37 AM

OK If the universe is not limitless then where and how does it cease? Limited things come to an end! I dont expect you to have an answer but can you at least offer a theory?

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#13

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:44 AM

I tried to find a quote from someone smarter than me (Hawkings, Sagan, et al ....)

But came across an interesting argument instead that I will provide:

The first proof is in the night sky. If the universe were infinite, it would have an infinite amount of energy. This energy would be in the form of electromagnetic radiation, one of which is visible light. The universe would be bathed in this infinite amount of energy and this would kill us. At the very least, there would be an infinite amount of light, not only because of the infinite amount of energy, but an infinite universe could very well also have an infinite number of stars. The result would be a universe filled with light; our nights would be full of light and there would never be darkness. But look at the night sky. It's dark. Meaning that the universe has a limited amount of energy. Meaning it has limits: a limited size and a limited mass.

Anonymous Poster
#14

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:46 AM

Here's a good one:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Anonymous Poster
#16

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:49 AM

And:

"The Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be. Our feeblest contemplations of the Cosmos stir us -- there is a tingling in the spine, a catch in the voice, a faint sensation, as if a distant memory, of falling from a height. We know we are approaching the greatest of mysteries."
Carl Sagan (Cosmos)

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#18

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:56 AM

So mysteries are what we as men must solve or remain the prisoners of such. are there an infinite number of stars or galaxys or atoms does the universe en and if so what is beyond the limit? I think this is a fairly simple question .

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#43

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 2:08 PM

"I think this is a fairly simple question ."

Yes, it is. Regrettably, the answer is not.

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#44

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 2:15 PM

Carl Sagan was an idiot. My opinion.

Anonymous Poster
#57

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 11:49 PM

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#90

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 6:49 AM

Pack it up, Del.

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#116

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 2:33 PM

I concur.

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#107

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 11:04 AM

Carl Sagan may not have been a certified idiot, but he WAS vastly over-rated.

As to infinity ~ First, if such a simple thing/concept as numbers is infinite, it's logical to conclude that that's just the tip of the infinity 'iceberg' (applying natural progression of logical thought).

Second - the "argument" of "The first proof is in the night sky" isn't applicable. Seriously, quantity and dispersement of energy as HUMANS recognize or know it is not support for an all-encompassing definition of energy. We haven't even begun to tap into all the possibilities within our own galaxy ~ only supreme arrogance or supreme ignorance could fuel "validation" such as that. Twenty years ago, black-holes (in relation to outer space ) were pretty much the stuff of science fiction ~ now there's a general acknowledgement of the probability of their existence. My point? Merely because we can't comprehend or define something, doesn't negate it's existence. To quote Hamlet, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.", (which will most likely always hold true).

And third ~ quoting some lyrical nonsense of Sagan's is essentially another non-answer.

Basically ~ Kay's question "If the universe is not limitless then where and how does it cease?", IS the answer... it DOESN'T cease. Seriously - if it stops, what's beyond that (and for how far)?... and beyond that (and what), and beyond that (and what), etc....? (See the pattern?). Even applying the "there's just a void of nothingness" argument - in this case nothing is still something. Just because it may be unrecognizable or incomprehensible to us (intellectually omnipotent humans that we are), doesn't mean it isn't a viable alternate 'environment' (if you will).

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#17

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:50 AM

When in doubt Quote Albert

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#56

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 11:37 PM

The night sky would be brighter but there a large number of dark objects that block a lot of the light and radiation of the stars. Planets, dust clouds, asteriods, moons etc. simply get in the way. Lots of dark matter in the universe. So I don't think that quoted statement is quite right in it's assumptions..

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#24

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 1:45 AM

It runs out once the advertisers lose interest.

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#86

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 3:52 AM

LOL! Or run out of money and/or pathetic clients.

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#26

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 3:57 AM

<....where and how does it cease....>

Given that nothing can pass beyond it, it cannot ever matter! The boundary is virtual, and not coverable by experience.

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#28

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 4:06 AM

Real truth... WE DON'T KNOW. We can't see there yet because the light from there hasn't had time to reach us. We can't go there... I'll let you figure that one out.

Needless to say, in this matter you're pretty much free to believe what you want because no one can prove you wrong.

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#79

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 2:11 AM

A circle is finite. Yet it is endless. Likewise the universe in three dimensions. It is a finite closed space, which is continuously expanding.

This issue as well as the curious case of counting infinities are discussed delightfully by George Gamow in his book 1 2 3 ..Infifinity.

Available free here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/onetwothreeinfin000923mbp#page/n33/mode/2up

The first chapter covers numbers.

Expanding universe is discussed later on.

Bioramani

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#83

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 2:47 AM

bioramani,

"It is a finite closed space, which is continuously expanding."

That is just the part that we are aware of.

Other parts may be contracting. And yet others may be expanding too.

Jon

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#5

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:05 AM

Are they true?

Absolutely not. The universe is NOT infinite in size, hence even the number atoms that make up all matter in the universe cannot be infinite (and that is the biggest simple example number I can think of), let alone galaxys.

Again, the concept of infinity is a theoretical device that doesn't exist in its truest sense in nature. Nothing is nothing, but infinity is endless and therefore unquantifiable using conventional methods.

So enlightening I need glasses.

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#7

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:13 AM

Jack you're back!! So good to hear from you!Am I to assume, based on your comment, that the universe is not limitless?

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#10

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:34 AM

Correct, many scientists and astronomers have many theories backed up by much corroborating information. All of them agree the universe is not infinite (even if not all of them agree in the big bang theory).

Let me put it to you this way, if the universe were infinite and it was started by the 'big bang', then the energy and matter released by the 'big bang' would be infinite. No matter the rate or speed of release or how long ago it occurred, the 'big bang' would still be releasing matter and energy today (and for the rest of eternity).

Such is the true nature of the concept of infinity.

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#12

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:41 AM

Ok if its not limitless it must cease at some "location"(for want of a better word) What lies beyond this "Barrier" ?

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#27

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 3:57 AM

It doesn't matter, for it cannot be experienced.

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#15

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 12:48 AM

The big bang theory(which in my understanding is more of a Postulate than a theory) addresses the origin of the universe at a singular point. it doesn't address its limits (at least to my knowledge, as feeble as that may be)

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#19

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 1:01 AM

Why not through the Multiverse into the mix

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

And let the discussion really go for a %@*^#\$\$%

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#20

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 1:03 AM

And then talk about infinite universes

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#21

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 1:10 AM

The multiverse is nothing more than an extension Our universe ends and there is more of the same beyond?????? This is sort of a bogus non answer dont you agree

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#22

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 1:21 AM

Take it up with Hawkings and his minimum of 6 extra dimensions!!!!

http://science.discovery.com/videos/master-of-the-universe-stephen-hawking-m-theory.html

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#23

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 1:32 AM

And be sure to catch the cut-off discussion at the end regarding Columbus falling off the earth because people thought in two dimensions, which didn't come true because he would simply circle around in 3-D back to where he started.

Now, try to imagine the 4th dimension .............. got that? Good. Now try to picture the 5th dimension. Alright. Now go up a few more and tell me when you start having difficulty.

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#25

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 2:23 AM

At the 4th!!

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#124

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 6:14 PM

Time

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#29

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 7:50 AM

Not at all. If there were something beyond then all that has happened is the limit has changed to a new position beyond the original position.

If there were another universe beyond the boundary of this one, then an observer in this universe couldn't know about it, so it wouldn't matter.

If the observer found out about something beyond the boundary of the known universe, it wouldn't be another universe, as the knowledge of its existence would be found within this one. Therefore there is only one universe!

It's the same sort of thing with UFOs. Of course they exist. If it was known what they were then they wouldn't be UFOs.

It's just a definition of terms.

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#30

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 7:52 AM

[Comment deleted.]

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#46

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 2:26 PM

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#85

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 3:48 AM

The big bang theory(which in my understanding is more of a postulate than a theory) addresses the origin of the universe at a singular point. it doesn't address its limits

You are asking a 'simple' (your word) question that does not have a definite or 'simple' answer (at least not at this point in our extremely limited understanding) nor may we Ever have a true answer. I believe that the word 'Vast' is as good a term as any to quantify our universe. It's pretty Dam* big! It's ok to ask the question, just don't lose any sleep over it!

How can anything which starts at a singular or central point and expands equally outward from that point be infinite? Wouldn't there be an outer boundary? Then again what is it expanding into? An infinite nothingness? Take a guess. It can't be any more or less true than any other theory. Multi-verses, multiple dimensions of space/time? Why not? I would like to know too!

Knowing the boundaries of our universe isn't going to cure any of our current ills on this tiny planet. Better that you apply your thinking toward solutions to our outstanding global problems and make this a better place for all of our peoples to live and thrive. Not just survive.

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#55

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 11:25 PM

Jack,

You are completely wrong on almost every point. Nobody knows whether the universe is infinite, not even you, but the data suggests that it is. How do you know that the big bang isn't still happening or whether it happened at all? Nobody knows these things, they are theories.

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#59

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 11:55 PM

Jack et al,

The "Big Bang" applies to our small part of the Universe. The existance of the rest of the Universe can only be known by imagination or guessed at by interpolation. Imagining its size and characteristics only produces a Universe that is imaginary.

A "big bang" just goes out to fill in areas that we might consider vacuous.

The Universe has no center and no edge so there is plenty of room to play.

Using limited abilities people have always dealt with things by imagining how they should be. Imagining the condition of unknown things produces imaginary things. Thats how man has derived so many gods that are imaginary. And then the authoritarians among them make wars over opposing theories to prove who is right.

Only one obstacle prevented Europe making the important scientific discoveries which were to change the face of the earth. That obstacle was scholasticism. This mode of thought-inherited from Platonism - imprisoned the Catholic Church for centuries in the doctrinal philosophy of Thomas Aquinas and Duns Scotus. It dealt with abstract ideas rather than with the concrete world, and "spurned the lowly earth in its search for heaven.

This opposition to intellectual activity directed to practical purposes and scientific progress was due partly to the Church and partly to the limitations that had inhibited Greek thinking after the Age of Pericles.

The Greeks had investigated, travelled, observed and classified. But with the exception of a few scientists such as a Archimedes they had not made experiments. The dawn of scientific thinking which had preceded the Age of Pericles was later dimmed by the growing popularity of logic.

To Plato, scientific study meant the study of the subjective world, the attempt to understand ultimate causes. Belittling the observational methods of the physical scientists, he once satirized astronomers: "It makes no difference whether a person stares stupidly at the sky, or looks with half shut eyes upon the ground. So long as he is trying to study any sensible object, I deny that he can ever be said to have learned anything. For no objects of sense admit the scientific treatment."

After Luther drove a wedge of separation between northern and southern Europe, the ensuing Reformation brought about the secularization of education. Protestantism allowed far more freedom to scientific investigation than Catholicism. And the necessity to compete with Protestantism forced the Catholic Church to compromise with science.

The restraints imposed by the Church upon scientific investigation were gradually dispelled. The death of Bruno at the stake for asserting, contrary to the Bible, Copernicus' theory that the earth revolved around the sun, was the last successful attempt of the Inquisition to throttle science. Though Galileo was later threatened with torture, the church made no attempt to execute him, confining him instead in his Florentine residence and assigning the recitation of psalms as penance for his heresies.
Somebody had to start the fire...........

Blah blah blah........

Jon

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#61

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 12:04 AM

This dissertation is interesting but it is way over my intellect as far as discerning its relevance (I do believe in GOD)

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#62

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 12:11 AM

Hi Kay,

I didn't mention God.

I did, however, mention imaginary gods.

It is good to meet another believer in God.

Jon

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#65

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 12:31 AM

I have not encountered any substantial scientific data that establishes the absence of GOD Beginning with Descartes "Cogito Ergo Sum" and extending to MY MAN ALBERT

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#73

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 1:05 AM

Hi Kay,

I tend to think those fellows refer to the created and not so much to the creator.

Al felt that there was a "will" in operation that gave unity and order to the chaos.

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#93

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 8:51 AM

Creator logically precedes Created

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#115

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 12:31 PM

Hi Kay,

"Creator logically precedes Created"

Good.

Some folks look at it this way:

The creator and the created have always been. Can't have one separate from the other even if the latter was only a concept at first. The creator only needs to put "B" and "E" together and it IS.

Jon

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#75

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 1:07 AM

I think I think, therefore I think I am.

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#76

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 1:22 AM

I have a better Mark Twain quote for you " Its not what I read in the Bible that I dont understand that troubles me... Its what I read that I do understand that TROUBLES me"

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#80

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 2:15 AM

A wise sage, that one.

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#113

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 12:22 PM

SHOULDN'T THAT BE - I THINK, I THINK I AM, THEREFORE I AM, I THINK.

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#210

### Re: Non Math

08/29/2009 8:19 PM

Kay,

Protagoras: Before any uncertainty two opposite theses can validly be confronted", the second is its complement: the need to "strengthen the weaker argument". Considering the assumption that there exists an equally viable premise in the "weaker argument", that shows a greater truth between the two theses when greatened to the level of the other when delved in to, follows the premise of an intrinsic unity of opposites by virtue that they must contain a balance of the same quality. In following that 'knowing what particulars to the weaker argument give it validity over the stronger' supposes how the truth to the question from whence the two opposing postulates are derived, and in how that allows both arguments in the first instance & before either of the opposing arguments descend from it, make the pretense an a priori dialectic. Such a thing being the synthesis of the two coming first as the unity before the constituent arguments setting the tone, and necessitating those as the very basis that each opposing idea must have, it then confirms that there must exist equal validity in the opposing "weaker argument", and under that context, presupposes the following sublation which is the discovered content of the reinforced "weaker" argument manifesting itself therein containing greater cohesion to the whole in the perceived weaker argument.

Protagoras knew that the less appealing argument could hide the best answer, which is why he stated that it was constantly necessary to strengthen the weakest argument. Having been born before Socrates himself, this progressive viewpoint in the development of consensual truth could conceivably have contributed to the progressive styles of many of the other great minds which followed him.

Apply that to the question of an infinite or illimitable space or the proofs of the existance of God or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

We would wind up with a better understanding of lots of things.

Jon

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#211

### Re: Non Math

08/29/2009 10:14 PM

Jon, I have always taken the 'weaker argument' and attempted to champion it. I am amazed at the diversity of ideas and opinions that have been expressed both in support and against my simple statement! I enjoyed reading your banter with Europium (a great intellect) regarding the definition Of sound! The participants in this 'argument' have completely won me over as thoughtful,logical, intelligent intellects. A Premise like this, however doesn't belong on this site.... This is an engineering forum, not a high school math club debate. CR4 is a great site peopled by great intellects,but instituted for a purpose. The conclusions drawn from the debate "Non-Math" are not relative to CR4's purpose, and I promise to the members of CR4 I will not engage in such 'trifles' and waste their valuable time or their more valuable mental energy. "Cogito Ergo Sum" K

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#212

### Re: Non Math

08/29/2009 11:53 PM

Kay,

Good idea. Your choice of "General" was as close as one can get for your subject.

Descartes's original statement was "Je pense donc je suis," from his Discourse on Method (1637). He wrote it in French, not in Latin, thus reaching a wider audience in his country than that of scholars. He uses the Latin "Cogito ergo sum" in the later Principles of Philosophy (1644), Part 1, article 7: "Ac proinde hÃ¦c cognitio, ego cogito, ergo sum, est omnium prima & certissima, quÃ¦ cuilibet ordine philosophanti occurrat.", by which time it had become popularly known in the English speaking world as 'the "Cogito Ergo Sum" argument', which is usually shortened to "Cogito" when referring to the principle virtually everywhere else.

Using latin makes us feel like Parisian Latin quarter scholars.

Jon

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#239

### Re: Non Math

08/31/2009 12:03 PM

How to explain a basketball to a 2 dimensional creature? Not infinite, but in 2 D terms, inexplanable. Human senses and conscious processing generally limited to 4 D, h x d x w x time (I think Asimoc wrote interesting SF novel on the concept of time - same existence, two lives, one creature experiencing time flow as we know it, cradle to grave, the other reverse flow (backwards to us) -- i.e. they popped into existence from the grave, life ended by re-entering womb and shrinking back to conception). Hurts to think about it, but so does thinking about the 'end' of the universe in only 4 dimensions - math says many more than 4 dimensions - our senses and 'cpu' cannot comprehend, same as imaginary 2-d creature cannot understand basketball in other than planes cut thru it. so -- there may be no 'end boundary' as we know it with our 4-D knowledge. My firm belief - God created time, it exists because of Him and does not contain Him. Hence, I AM.

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#242

### Re: Non Math

08/31/2009 2:10 PM

Basketballs present no difficulties for two-dimensional creatures as every point on a basketball's (or any other sphere's) surface can be completely and uniquely specified by two coordinates. Pretty cool for a three-dimensional projection of a four-dimensional object, yes?

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#243

### Re: Non Math

08/31/2009 2:20 PM

I was referring to the whole ball, not surface only. On that subject, consider flat map (2D) representations of world's surface -- complete distortion of scale -- not very cool for calculations of distance using a ruler - also incapable of pinpointing earthquake epicenters, oil deposits, understanding magnetic fields, gravity

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#245

### Re: Non Math

08/31/2009 3:56 PM

Those two-dimensional creatures (let's call 'em 2DCs) still have plenty to bake their noodles even when we neglect the concept of altitude (more generally, radius).

Imagine a 2DC's consternation when, as it moves forward, going in a straight line (insofar far as it can tell), turning neither right nor left, it returns to the same point from which it started! How in the heck did that happen?! It certainly didn't go in a circle (something a 2DC would understand). It went in a straight line, yet here it is, right back where it started.

Now consider a three-dimensional creature (presumably one of us, a 3DC) following what everyone can obviously see is a "straight" line through space but, in our case, we are traversing the three-dimensional "surface" of a 4-sphere (where all four dimensions are 'spacelike,' just to keep things simple). It doesn't matter which direction we point our ship; thataway will do just fine.

So we begin our journey, turning neither right nor left, up nor down. What do you think will eventually happen? Depending on how large our 4-sphere is, and depending on how late the pubs are open, we will end up - as did our 2D Basketball Jones - right where we started.

Spooky, non?

I'm prone to motion sickness, sadly, and so a much easier way I think, is to simply point a telescope in some random direction and take a look. If the scope is powerful enough, I can see the back of my head. (Doesn't work in this Universe, though, because one of its dimensions is 'timelike.')

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#253

### Re: Non Math

09/01/2009 9:12 AM

Exactly -- since our senses are 'constrained' in viewing time incrementally, aren't up to observing it all at once. Ditto the 2D creature without true 3D senses. Rather than beat the analogy to death, you aptly point out how limited we are in sensing the time dimension - and there are more than 4 dimensions to reality, something difficult to reason with our sensory input -- many comments in this thread are based on sensory perception - such as, expectation that there is an 'end' to universe, like it's a 3D or 4D container, simply bcause that's our everyday sensory process -- higher math reveals mroe dimensions we do not, at least consciously, process. Again - how do you explain the add'l dimension(s) to someone limiting reasoning to what they can observe consciously and directly - one answer, infinity.

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#248

### Re: Non Math

08/31/2009 11:28 PM

YOU AM who? God?! Wow!!! I was hoping to meet you sometime!!!

Actually, the interesting thing about direction in time is that whether you're headed for the future or the past, you, personally, observe time flowing in the same direction as the other guy.

Also, math does not say (or suggest) that there are more than 4 dimensions - extra dimensions are simply components of some somewhat promising theories.

Also, also, if you're familiar with the story of Flatland, you may remember when the apple loses his patience with the 2D circle, then picks the circle up off of Flatland and drops him through the 3rd dimension, and back to his 2D plane. The circle is blown away and has no words for what he's experienced...

OK. So let's take this one step further (just for fun). What if all matter including us are 3-dimensional, and would otherwise be rather static. However, what we perceive as the passage of time is all 3D matter falling through a 4th dimension? All matter that is falling relative to us seems to stay in the same place in relation to us. However, 3D objects that are moving around relative to us, we perceive as things changing in time and position.

Since even, say, a piece of fruit on the table before us is moving molecularly in relation to us, so we see it falling through the 4th dimension as it expresses its relative motion (in the 4th dimension) by rotting. We even find that all the parts of our bodies are moving through the 4th dimension at differing rates - we sense this as aging.

So, in other words, what we experience as the passage of time is simply the whole hodge-podge of 3D matter falling haphazardly through the 4th dimension. Without this falling there would be no time, and we'd all be just motionless, inanimate 3D matter.

Go take a 12 hour cold capsule and get back to me in the morning.

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#249

### Re: Non Math

09/01/2009 3:46 AM

"3D matter falling haphazardly through the 4th dimension"

Side Note: So we're all happily following our own geodesics (ie, hoity-toity name for "'haphazard' path through the 4th dimension," as you say, which is actually quite orderly because it always looks like a straight line from our perspective) when suddenly some stupid planet leaps right outta nowhere straight into our path and interrupts our merry journey, whereupon we immediately experience this most unpleasant thing called the "force of gravity" that everybody thinks is sticking them to the planet. Funny how we didn't feel it at all until the instant we stopped moving along our geodesics.

Me? I think this whole "force of gravity" thing's a sham. You only feel it when something cuts you off at the pass. Earth, for instance.

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#250

### Re: Non Math

09/01/2009 4:02 AM

Think of it as two objects falling through the 4th D, each at intersecting angles.

And, yes... S&#t does bump together.

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#92

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 8:48 AM

Interesting perspective on the effects of some early church thinking, but you're missing much of the rest of the reality that it was mostly men of God who made up the scientific thinking leading to 'science' as we know it.
History is full of men who were and are intensely interested in discovering the details of how God designed the universe, understanding the laws he put in place for the behavior of physical phenomena; and contrary to your assertion, Copernicus' theory was NOT contrary to the Bible, just contrary to the limited understanding of some men walking around being dogmatic about their observational reality at the time. It was they who did not understand their Bible: Isaiah 40:22; Luke 17:34-36.
Likewise with the idea of an expanding universe that makes it literally impossible - although "scientists" have often estimated the finite number of them - to count the stars. Or the difference in the nature of light (moves in a path, source can be located) and darkness (which does not, and is present only until light) Job 38:19. Interestingly, that passage also captures the possibility that the darkness "is." Tension theories, anyone?

And can anyone yet explain why this expanding universe that continues to create more stars as others turn into something else, appears to have its expansion rate accelerating? Observational bias errors, or unknown energy source? I'd like to have a handle on that one, myself.

'In the end', it is our ability to observe that is limited, though our imagination is free to interpolate, and God just smiles and enjoys the side show.

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#132

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 8:06 PM

Sandman,

Copernicus' theory was NOT contrary to the Bible?

Bruno died for asserting, as did Copernicus, that the earth moved around the sun. The Bible only mentions the sun doing the moving. The church considered the idea of the earth orbiting the sun as heretical.

The restraints imposed by the Church upon scientific investigation were gradually dispelled. The death of Bruno at the stake for asserting, contrary to the Bible, Copernicus' theory that the earth revolved around the sun, was the last successful attempt of the Inquisition to throttle science. Though Galileo was later threatened with torture, the church made no attempt to execute him, confining him instead in his Florentine residence and assigning the recitation of psalms as penance for his heresies. The church even had someone monitoring his compliance.

The men of God that dug into science until those days were not of the Christian churches.

In the time of Bruno and Galileo the Christian churches were beginning to compete for the once forbidden scientific knowledge from the eastern world.

Your Bible references don't seem to refer to the subject of the relationship of the Sun and Earth or the nature of the universe.

Jon

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#134

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 8:17 PM

Well said, Sandman.

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#141

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 10:34 PM

My understanding is that the finite number of galaxies in the observable universe continue to produce stars because there is still lots of primordial hydrogen around that hasn't had a chance to condense yet. I don't really see how the expansion or contraction of the universe would have anything to with this process. What is important is that the universe is young enough that the unused hydrogen is still around.

You might argue that as the universed expands the space between bits of matter in deep space expands, and that quantum effects cause quarks and electrons to form in these empty spaces more rapidly than they disappear. Since the easiest thing to make out of quarks and electrons is probably hydrogen, this as yet unobserved process might cause the universe's supply of hydrogen to replenish itself to some extent in an expanding universe.

You state that the expanison of the universe makes it impossible to count the stars. Are you suggesting that they have moved so far away that we can't see them anymore? To the best of my knowledge, the estimated age of the universe is 13-14 billion years. Our best telescopes can resolve galaxies at nearly that distance. That doesn't leave much hiding room. What is your point?

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#178

### Re: Non Math

08/27/2009 7:18 PM

Ya got a point there Judge. And it seems the universe is still expanding.

I know I will be pounded for this: I found myself in front of the Master of an esoteric school. There was a sculpture on his desk, which I pondered or a few minutes. Of a moment realized what it was. He asked "Do you recognise that?"

I nodded and said "Yes". No further questions were asked. I was accepted.

The Koan that is your life is beyond words, the parameters of universe are unknown.

I prefer it that way. It still leaves me with a sense of wonder. Every sunrise is a gift.

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#179

### Re: Non Math

08/27/2009 7:27 PM

Well said Good Form!!

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#203

### Re: Non Math

08/28/2009 10:57 PM

Sandman-

My personal, and very unpopular, concept about the supposed "accelerating expansion" of the universe is that we are fundamentally wrong about electromagnetic radiation; i.e., I want to believe that the "speed of light in a vacuum" may be a valid constant, but the "universe" is not a vacuum, but, at least as far as we can see, it consists of many regions of varying densities. Either mass causes a curvature of space, or photons have some mass (i.e., can be "accelerated" through gravitational reaction with other masses). What we know of the characteristics of electromagnetic radiation is based on really very limited observation over very limited time and in a very small section of the universe. Since we did not enjoy the benefit of riding along with that red-shifted photon that has been travelling through the cosmos for some 14 billion years, it is rather presumptuous for us to claim to understand the path it has taken. One can say the universe is expanding, or one can say that light is slowing down. One gets the same answer, which is now...

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#45

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 2:23 PM

"Nothing is nothing..."

Good thing zero ain't nothing, oui? Else I'm making a helluva lot less than I think I am (on the flip side, Uncle Sugar is taking out a helluva lot less than he thinks he is).

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#48

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 5:36 PM

"...but infinity is endless and therefore unquantifiable using conventional methods."

Which infinity? There are....several.

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#170

### Re: Non Math

08/27/2009 11:54 AM

(for sake of transparency and full disclosure, this is Benbenben. i am still unable to post while logged in, and equally unable to get a satisfactory answer as to why) jack, with all due respect (and much is certainly due), your explanation is uncharacteristically lacking in quality. first, lets tackle this pseudoscientific attempt at disproving the possibility of an infinite universe, by suggesting that if the number of stars were infinite, then an infinite numbdr of atoms would be insufficient to be the makeup thereof.... ....keep in mind, man is the measure of all things (i forget who said this origianlly, forgive my plagerism). so a misunderstanding about infinite sets will not wall in the possibilities of the universe. .....think of it another way.... if there is a set containing all the possible numbers between 0 and 10, out an infinite number of decimal places (0.000000000000001) this set would arguably be infintely long. if i were to take seveal of these sets and color each a different color, these would also be infinte sets, if i were to combine all of these sets, the new set would also be infinte. so even though each number would have various color constituents much like stars are composed of atoms, it does not preclude an infinite number. secondly, the statement that all scientists agree that the universe is finite is simply not true. even some big-bang proponents sugest that the universe may be infinite and that what is being described is just what is within our perview.

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#182

### Re: Non Math

08/27/2009 8:38 PM

Ben ben ben have ben banned?

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#204

### Re: Non Math

08/28/2009 11:04 PM

Benbenben-

As an aside, I believe, but can not be certain, that the assertion "Man is the measure of all things" is attributable to Francis Bacon...Who also cautioned us against drawing conclusions from too little experience...

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#206

### Re: Non Math

08/29/2009 12:52 AM

Cwarner7 11,

Sorry but I had the need to nit-pick a little.

"Man is the measure of all things" is attributable to Francis Bacon"

Bacon was knowledgeable of Greek philosophy through the translations from Arabic to Latin. Protagoras was a renowned teacher who addressed subjects connected to virtue and political life. He was especially involved in the question of whether virtue could be taught, a commonplace issue of 5th Century B.C. Greece and related to modern readers through Plato's dialogue. Rather than educators who offered specific, practical training in rhetoric and public speaking, Protagoras attempted to formulate a reasoned understanding, on a very general level, of a wide range of human phenomena (for example, language and education). He also seems to have had an interest in orthopedia, or the correct use of words (a topic more strongly associated with his fellow-sophist Prodicus).

His most famous saying is: "Man is the measure of all things: of things which are, that they are, and of things which are not, that they are not". Like many fragments of the Presocratics, this phrase has been passed down to us without any context, and its meaning is open to interpretation.

"Francis Bacon...Who also cautioned us against drawing conclusions from too little experience.."

Also Protagoras: Before any uncertainty two opposite theses can validly be confronted", the second is its complement: the need to "strengthen the weaker argument". Considering the assumption that there exists an equally viable premise in the "weaker argument", that shows a greater truth between the two theses when greatened to the level of the other when delved in to, follows the premise of an intrinsic unity of opposites by virtue that they must contain a balance of the same quality. In following that 'knowing what particulars to the weaker argument give it validity over the stronger' supposes how the truth to the question from whence the two opposing postulates are derived, and in how that allows both arguments in the first instance & before either of the opposing arguments descend from it, make the pretense an a priori dialectic. Such a thing being the synthesis of the two coming first as the unity before the constituent arguments setting the tone, and necessitating those as the very basis that each opposing idea must have, it then confirms that there must exist equal validity in the opposing "weaker argument", and under that context, presupposes the following sublation which is the discovered content of the reinforced "weaker" argument manifesting itself therein containing greater cohesion to the whole in the perceived weaker argument.

Protagoras knew that the less appealing argument could hide the best answer, which is why he stated that it was constantly necessary to strengthen the weakest argument. Having been born before Socrates himself, this progressive viewpoint in the development of consensual truth could conceivably have contributed to the progressive styles of many of the other great minds which followed him.

Jon

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#31

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 8:03 AM

Infinity is both a beautiful and horribly ugly concept. In my experience (not much) I have often found better answers as to what infinity is in philosophy books rather than science books. This is an age old question of whats beyond the end, and the human mind has such difficulty grasping this idea, we seem to require an end to everything and cant imagine a universe that goes on for infinity. I think your approach should be why it cant be infinite (if there are valid reasons) like the way Hawkinsg explains. Good Luck, this will bother you for infinity.

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#32

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 9:54 AM

There are NOT an infinite number of stars in a galaxy, nor an infinite number of galaxies in the universe (astronomy 101).

However - let me offer an analogy. Line up all the people on the earth and have them walk by single file. The parade will never end. Why? Not because there are an infinite number of people, but because enough new people are being born to keep the queue full. (Don't ask what's going on in the queue.)

It's the same with stars and galaxies. New ones are created every day. If you started counting, you'd never get to the end, unless you counted for billions of years, until all the galaxies have exhausted their ability to make new stars.

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#33

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 10:03 AM

What is the greater number? Galaxys by definition must be fewer than stars, can we assume this statement is true?

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#34

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 10:09 AM

What is the greater number ? # of atoms in the universe or the number of digits in

Pi?

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#36

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 10:13 AM

the number of digits in PI exceeds the number of atoms in the universe, since one is infinite, and the other is not.

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#35

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 10:12 AM

Yes, there are always more galaxies than stars, by definition.

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#37

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 10:41 AM

Did you misstate ? Galaxys>stars?

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#38

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 10:44 AM

yes, everything I say is a lie.

i am a liar.

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#39

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 10:55 AM

Therefore you speak the truth

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#66

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 12:32 AM

Bhankii,

My guess is that stars don't remain stars forever.

The line of people will all become "dust" too.

Not all things have a beginning and no end.

Astronomy is the counting of stars and you can only count what you see. Man keeps seeing more of what is already there.

What came first, the stars or the galaxy?

Myriad galaxies does not a Universe make.

Jon

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#40

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 1:13 PM

O curas hominum! O quantum est in rebus inane!

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#42

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 2:05 PM

Ilegitimo ne carborundum

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#47

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 3:18 PM

Never.

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#89

### Re: Non Math

08/26/2009 6:48 AM

Excretia tauri astutos frustrantior.

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#183

### Re: Non Math

08/27/2009 10:27 PM

Ignoramous illigitamate non carborundum.

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#184

### Re: Non Math

08/27/2009 10:51 PM

Please translate I slept in latin class I thought it was "Ilegitimo ne carborundum"

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#41

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 1:28 PM

The universe is not infinate. Proof of this is in the fact that it seems to exist. If the universe were truly infinate, then included within the infinate possibilities would be at least one which required that the universe was utterly destroyed. Since this would negate the possibility of a subsequent re-creation...we must exist.

Of course we may all be like Shrodinger's cat (and Del may actually be), living in a constant state of existance and non-existance. And you think parallel parking is hard? Try that on for size.

As the universe expanded after the big bang, it didn't expand into a big empty. It created the big empty as it went. It's still creating it now, as evertying continues to fly apart. There is no "outside" the empty. And even if there is, we'll never be able to know what it is, because we simply cannot ever go there. It's like trying to reach through a solid window curtain - the curtain just billows out and your hand never goes through. And sadly, there is no "edge" we can peek around.

But what shape is the curtian? There's a big question! Is it flat? Curved? Spherical? Doughnut-shaped? Crumpled? Nobody knows the shape of the universe. I suspect it's a bit more rumpled in my immediate vicinity - at least it looks that way in the mirror each morning.

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#49

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 5:42 PM

I don't know if this is exactly accurate or totally true but.

I have heard that the estimated number of stars in the known presently visible universe is roughly equal to the number of cells in the human race at the moment.

That is for each cell in your body and the body of everyone alive right now there is 1 star.

Technically that is not infinite but still its big enough for me to feel like everyone should spread out and give each other some more room!

So how does that fit into the supposed energy crisis? I think there is lots left yet myself!

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#50

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 6:52 PM

This discussion has been most lively!! I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of the participants your arguments mixed with "the lighter side" have been quite entertaining and informative. It seems infinity can only be defined in the context of mathematics (e.g. The number of decimal places in Pi ) By most of your arguments we can not find infinity in the universe or "Creation" if you will. Thank you all for your input!! K

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#51

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 10:57 PM

[This space intentionally left blank]

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#52

### Re: Non Math

08/25/2009 11:02 PM

If there is more to life than just eating mice, what could the "more" possibly be?

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