Voltage Booster Challenge for Low Voltage Sourced Power

AC or DC? If DC, is it smooth?

DC voltage source/s only.

I don't think this is practical or realistically feasible concept. What is the actual power source and the application as to what you need 3 -5 volts from a 1 watt 100 Mv input for?

You will have trouble overcoming the problem that there are no real viable switching devices that can use that low of voltage to control them. Most don't even conduct at that low of voltage and the few types that do still have a few 10's of Mv drop across them. A higher voltage power source will be needed to drive the switching devices and then the higher output voltage from the system will need to be recycled back into the unit to provide its own power once its up and running.

Problem two is realistic efficiency. 100 mV at 10A is 1 watt. It may be possible to build such a device but its cost and efficiency are going to leave you will a very expensive power source with only a few Milli watts of usable power at its output.

If all you need is a few milliwatts of power at 3 -5 volts a set of good lithium batteries can provide that for a few years and will likely be smaller than the device that can produce it from the source you have mentioned. And many times cheaper.

This sounds like school assignment or a too dumb to understand its not practical boss assignment.

dear tcmtech,

This is one reason why this problem was raised.

If this energy is dumped into a tuned circuit having step up transformer to power a MOSFET and then using part of the energy with positive feedback to start oscillations may work. Only problems looks serious if there is no initial oscillation them oscillator will never start. It is essential to find a sure trigger to oscillator and continuity to it. I think this may be possible to implement.

Use the power to generate heat and use the heat to generate the power you need using a thermopile.

Obviously you could charge up 30 capacitors and connect them in series.

You could apply the low voltage to the primary side of a stepup transformer (ignition coil type) in series with a rotary electrical contactor driven by voltage from the secondary. You'll need a hand crank to get it going, but once it starts up it should run smoothly. By repeated breaking contact on the primary side you create AC which is then stepped up, say, 100 times, then rectified back to 6VDC to drive the rotary contactor motor. This is similar to the way they made high voltage AC for pre-vacuum tube radio transmitters.

BTW - does anyone know why Google Chrome won't accept my WYSIWYG formatting?

Dear bhankiii,

good try. I like the idea of converting into heat energy. Capacitor idea is not possible as it requires a switching device like ICL7660.

Well a step up DC to DC converter isn't going to be able to run on that low an input voltage. The minimum is about 0.7-0.8V

Same with charge pump voltage doublers.

Signal boosting amplifiers won't work without a separate power supply (so not suitable).

Would piezoelectric vibration energy harvesting or a small solar cell or panel be suitable? Do you have a compressed air line nearby you could attach a Small air-powered turbine? What about large temperature differences that would allow something like a peltier device to work?

Additionally how about the load or device under operation/test. Could you use it to provide power (movement or vibration to power an energy harvesting circuit, generated air flow to power a small wind turbine, harness waste heat, etc).

What's the application?

Dear jack of all trades,

I think you have pointed to good number of lines to be tried out.

Low voltage - heat - IR - photocell to get more voltage at low efficiency

Low voltage - heat - pressure - engine - generator 50% efficiency

Low voltage - tuned oscillator with step up and self powered with generated high voltage 80-90% efficiency

DC-motor - DC to AC and step up and rectification 70-80% efficiency

I think the second idea looks much better. I can give 6 point to this in 10.

Electronic converters still look much better if it these can be implemented. I think DC motor becoming a generator is possible.

How much is your customer paying us for this design? I have three.

How many times now, Shyam?

How many time have you posed engineering problems - problems like this one that you face on the job but lack the expertise to solve - as self-styled CR4 "challenges?"

And if/when some CR4 member naively rises to your "challenge" with a good design, you take their work and submit it to your client as your own - and get paid for it.

This intellectual dishonesty, this duplicity, this deception, this BULLSHIT of yours has gone on long enough, Shyam. You are using this forum to solicit free engineering labor - labor for which you get paid and for which you take credit.

I'm reporting this to the CR4 Admins.

_{By the way: Do your clients know you do this? Do you want them to? The Internet has made the world a very small place, Shyam.}

Dear europium,

This is pure design challenge idea and has nothing to do with my professional work. I do not manufacture for public or industry and my business is very limited to very high tech research of time of flight detectors and systems. Please do not think I am using any of the idea discussed here. These are to open minds of engineers discussing in a group under loud thinking. This helps those are new to electronics but are very keen.

I like the idea of converting energy to heat into limited mass to raise temperature and use energy to generate higher voltage using thermopile of thermocouples.

I think heat energy can also generate pressure to make a micro engine.

Think more to convert this low voltage energy into higher voltage by other means. It is all right if you get an idea and wish to patent it. Thinking is something great thing, I am a thinker and think all time.

I publish my designs in Electronics Design magazine for others to use. Search my name at www.elecdesign.com/ or www.ednmag.com/

I sure become happy to read good ideas so I think others will also appreciate if you come up with something good. If you wish to get money then I suggest look at www.ninesigma.org/ where you can get money for solving ideas.

I have confronted Shyam about this before, to no effect. I've tried subtlety; it doesn't seem to register. The same for diplomacy. Nothing seems to work. Nor does the guy seem to understand the concepts of right and wrong. Or, like a sociopath, perhaps he understands but simply doesn't care. I don't know.

Were I addressing you or any number of others here, my comments and the way I voiced them in my last post would certainly be most inappropriate, and I do apologize for any consternation I have caused you and others. On the other hand, there would be no need to address you in this way. You are in a different league altogether.

To Shyam I offer no apologies, nor do I offer them to any others of his ilk who come here expecting to benefit by dishonest gain. There is a name for that kind of person: thief. There are other names, too, but this is a public forum.

Shyam knows exactly what he is doing when he concocts these so-called "challenges." He knows that challenges - real challenges - attract smart people who are good at solving problems. He could have been forthright and honest and simply have asked for help with his problem, but he didn't. Asking for help doesn't hold the same appeal as does a bona-fide Challenge. So he calls his schemes "challenges" and pockets the profits when a good solution presents itself. Besides, who's to know?

Surely Shyam is aware that these deceptive schemes of his are just plain wrong. This isn't the first time he's been confronted about it and yet here he is again, come to feed for free at the CR4 trough. Mister Integrity himself. The One Who Learns Nothing.

In the final analysis what really boils my blood isn't so much the fact that Shyam is a thief (as if that weren't bad enough), but that he's a bloody predator. A predator whose prey include people I highly respect and whom I call my friends. When I see this I go over the top. It's here that Shyam is messin' with Papa, and Papa don't take no mess.

Jack

Both you and others I also respect obviously take offense to the intent of Shyam's "challenges". The ideas he seeks are certainly of value, but being relatively new, I thought that that was CR4's intent - sharing ideas. He appears smart enough that he does not need us to do his engineering design for him and he has provided some GAs himself. Hardly the profile of a predator in my opinion. I have also noticed that some of his challenges receive no response maybe the best approach if he has offended.

What is a good idea worth? Often it is priceless! I hope all participating here are not sharing proprietary information or ideas. That some may prey on good hearted engineers is probably the risk of an open forum (this one being the best out there) we have to accept.

I find it upsetting when someone is called out, even if deserved. I try not to judge the dubious intentions of others. Who knows if Shyam may be the one to have a GA for you when you have a challenge, but passed you by because he felt offended?

#17

Yes. Possible but you will loose 50% energy. Is it ok?

what is your approach? I have already listed few possible methods to work on, in my replies to others. Do you find anything different and if you want to share with others then you are welcome.

I guess I pretty much started ignoring Shyam's posts about a year ago. The few times when he actually put something out there "for hire" it seemed like he wanted to pay so far below what it was worth that, hey wait a minute!, yeah, that's right, he could have re-sold it at a great profit. He has in the past stated it was for a "school" but the nature of the projects were way beyond the scope of what would seem likely to be going on in any school. Whether he should be censored or not I don't know. That becomes a bigger thing since now you have to apply it fairly and who gets to decide. I just treat it like bad TV. I don't watch the Shyam channel any more!

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/443659/Re-Peak-Detection-and-Hold-Query

Yes, this idea started from that point and I felt that we should discuss this point separately where some good solution can be found and all ideas can be tried and evaluated on the bases of their merit. It wasn't worth discussing it there to spoil that forum thread placed by other person for different reason and purpose. I felt that this idea is worth discussing so I raised this point here. I think for 0.5V Maxim has DC-DC converter and Germanium transistors can work even at 300mV so I lowered the voltage below Germanium transistor limit to let it not come into action to see what are other possibilities we may think of. I think this discussion generated more ideas now and is progressing in positive direction except for few unrelated comments, which I think can be ignored or overlooked.

Shyam,

Reflecting on what others have told you here, it should be stated that information provided by people who are drawing on information derived during their employment and thereafter is proprietary (trade secret) and they could be prosecuted under our laws for not safeguarding intellectual property.

Their own personal work is protected under the US Constitution and International bodies that allows them to collect income for their personal intellectual property as well as successfully collect damages from anyone who benefits from the use of that information.

Every company has Intellectual Property (technical and practical knowledge) that is a critical component to its future. Your company standard processes may not even identify a method to capture Intellectual Property (IP) or define what IP is. Retention and definition of IP is key to your product and market place profitability; take a look at your situation.

Using information provided by people in CR4 can harm businesses in their respective countries by producing unfair competition.

I know this because I have worked with industrial and Aeropspace Sensor products for 35 years and 8 years in Department of Defense communication systems and it is part of our recorded training requirement.

You can have what comes from the textbook examples because it is available to you freely. However, when it comes to applications that use unspecified characteristics of components and assemblies you or your informant may get a visit from one of my friends at the US Department of Commerce and a Federal Law Enforcement representative. For other countries, I am sure they would be interested as well and take the same action.

It is not a joke.

Jon

So out of curiosity what happens when what you deemed a company trade secret is figured out independently by someone else and they decide to aggressively compete against you and your market share?

What if what you worked long and hard on something in regards to a specific problem could end up having been a simple no brainer to someone else who had a similar challenge and knowledge in a seemingly unrelated field but thus concluded that what worked in that field also can work well in what is considered your application?

You spent tens of thousands of man hours and millions of dollars developing your super widget. I read about its function and purpose for aplication online and then I just took a standard issue whatchamacallit and changed some resistors and a transistor and now I have an exact equivalent of your super widget.

Am I now the bad guy for being able to do that and aggressively compete with you in that application market being I didn't need to spend that time and money you did??

Hi TCM,

So out of curiosity what happens when what you deemed a company trade secret is figured out independently by someone else and they decide to aggressively compete against you and your market share?

The patent rights go to the best documented winner. i.e: Honeywell vs Litton, RING LASER GYRO Mirror manufacturing process. Still in court since 1990.

What if what you worked long and hard on something in regards to a specific problem could end up having been a simple no brainer to someone else who had a similar challenge and knowledge in a seemingly unrelated field but thus concluded that what worked in that field also can work well in what is considered your application?

Mendelev got recognition for his periodic chart while others who had the same results were no so well documented, forthright and connected.

You spent tens of thousands of man hours and millions of dollars developing your super widget. I read about its function and purpose for aplication online and then I just took a standard issue whatchamacallit and changed some resistors and a transistor and now I have an exact equivalent of your super widget.

Two patents for widgets with similar end functions. Competition is healthy. Hopefully both can sustain a good market share and make money. Someone saved a lot of money by being clever enought to modify an over-the-counter widget and produce the equivalent function.

Am I now the bad guy for being able to do that and aggressively compete with you in that application market being I didn't need to spend that time and money you did?

Your competition would probably do the "Sour grapes attitude" but the customer who pays competitive pricing loves you both. The competition may want to buy your company or pay you a fortune for a license to your patent. More money for your R & D is good.

Thanks for the questions.

Jon

I believe in sharing of knowledge. We have no greater knowledge than what is presented to me on earth by some one or the other intentionally or accidentally. Others can think differently and practice differently.

Shyam,

Have you looked into the low voltage valve controls driven by a low voltage thermocouple in the pilot flame used for gas flow safety? I saw one that runs off a 30mV output of a thermocouple at some current to hold open a safety valve.

Such a device could be modified or manufactured with a smaller throw and sets of contacts arranged to make it into a vibrating chopper for passing current to a transformer primary winding and bump it up to a higher voltage that could be more useful.

Kind of like the old vibrating chopper used to produce plate voltage in the radios in our old, old cars with 6 Volt systems.

How about that?

Jon

Dear kudukdweller9

Is it a low voltage motor or actuator driven valve control or simply a bi-metal device. Vaive can be operated in many ways like heat to size change and heat to pressure change.

Shyam,

Sorry, I left out a key phrase. It is a solenoid. A heated thermocouple provides a current that holds in the "armature". It releases if the flame goes out.

Your low voltage power source could be applied via a set of contacts that have replaced the valve assembly so that when power is applied the contacts dissengage and re-engage sending a suitable current via another set of chopper contacts at a rate suitable to send current from your low voltage power source to a low voltage, high current primary of a transformer.

The solenoid's linear movement would most likely have to be limited to keep the mechanics of it in a satisfactorily operable range.

Jon

Dear kudukdweller9

You are right. Even small DC voltage can generate high DC magnetic field as all that matters is the current in the coil and perhaps core material. It can pull a solenoid valve easily.

This technique can also be used for making and breaking circuit and will solve the basic problem of creating a power oscillator.

I think you have hit on a right idea. Good work.

Shyam,

Seems pretty basic. See how it flies.

I wonder if low voltage, current operated relays can be gotten "off-the-shelf".

Jon

kudukdweller9,

Good idea. Even if they are not available off the self they can be made. Here supper conductor thin wire can play a great role.

I think door opener magnets are made from very low voltage.

I have been using 0-2V in my fast heater strip in TLD radiation dose reader to raise temperature from 25C to 500C in 10C/s to 20C/s heating rates by firing some 50A-100A current. I have brass bars and Kanthal heater strip and thermocouple on it for sensing and feedback temperature control. Only Laser goes faster.

I think some of the tools used in Marine engineering work only on low voltage high magnetic field.Mostly low voltage high power batteries. Solar power can be of direct use in such cases.

I think it will open a Pandora's box if we look into low voltage high current applications.

Shyam,

In that regard Pandora's toys may not be so bad when we think out of her box.

Low voltage high current could certainly challenge a lot of people who are locked in to the 3 to 15 volt range of devices.

Jon

under 1V devices were tried by companies like Signetics (Phillips) and their memories could hold data even at 0.5V and there must be many other companies who also might have tried this. Now once again people are trying low voltage logic and many ADCs are available that work on 1V. Semiconductor having band gap of only 0.1eV have not yet been tried so far. Perhaps electrons can not be moved with such low energy in semiconductor and they can only be polarized a bit as is seen in pyroelectric sensors at 10000nm or near human body temperature peak energy of IR radiation. In cool condition such semiconductor may be used at low voltage but not at room temperature as there will be a lot of thermal noise. However for switching applications, noise may not be a serious problem.

Read this link http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009SPIE.7298E..96S

Development of a 0.1eV bandgap semiconductor at the Honeywell Research Center (1959 - 1985)

Some of these materials were developed for better resolution of low energy x-ray detection and they are very sensitive to thermally altered free electron density.

Shyam,

Radioisotope Thermocouple Generator to power to the circuits and the freezer that provides cooling for that stuff.

Jon

Radioisotope energy is not enough for generating heat for thermocouple to work. Radioisotop electrons can directly charge a capacitor to form a battery of any desired voltage and very low power, but such devices did not become popular even though they were tried as power source. Perhaps people are scared of leakage of radioactivity and its contamination.

I found this 300mV powered crystal oscillator

www.aldinc.com/pdf/UltraLowPowerCrystalOsc.pdf

Shyam,

Check out this site:

Often referred to as "nuclear batteries" by the media, RTGs convert heat to electricity by harnessing the thermal energy produced by decay of radioactive isotopes. A silicon-germanium thermopile inside the RTG converts the heat energy into electricity.

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/thermoelectric/thermoelectric.htm#ca

Then:

http://www.osti.gov/accomplishments/rtg.html

Yes people are scared by such things. Radioactive devices are used in aviation and industry.

Jon

I think you have referred to Plutonium fission energy from nuclear power generators of small size used in submarine or satellites. Decay energy is very small even at 100Gy radiation level. Nuclear Fission energies are large and small and big reactors run on that energy.

Shyam,

RTGs are not reactors. Radioisotopes pellets produce heat without fission and the heat is used to produce electricity on a small scale for such applications as isolated microwave repeaters, Telemetry for undersea sensors etc.

A Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator (RTG, RITEG) is an electrical generator which obtains its power from radioactive decay. In such a device, the heat released by the decay of a suitable radioactive material is converted into electricity by the Seebeck effect using an array of thermocouples.

One of the first terrestrial uses of RTGs was in 1966 by the US Navy at the uninhabited Fairway Rock Island in Alaska, where it remained in use until its removal in 1995.

The Soviets powered lighthouses with them in the Arctic.

Our space program uses them too. The Mars Rover uses one to prevent damage to systems that would be damaged by freezing.

Jon

It may not be a chain reaction reactor but even a pallet will have fission if neutron source is embedded in it. Energy released in 10mm pallet can melt steel cover. I have not seen very highly active source in hot condition. We use 20000 to 80000 Ci sources for cancer therapy that need lots of shielding but that hardly heat up. Of course it warms up but not enough to generate any electricity. I believe they must have used active fission pallet. I am from nuclear lab and nuclear reactor background and have used high flux sources.

Hi,

no Neutron source in this thermal generator, only passive heat fro decay.

Heat radiation may be focused by a mirror or IR transparent lens, so high temperature away from active core is possible but I have no information if this focusing has ever been used.

RHABE

Do you know the radioactive source type used in such devices and their activity strength?

Shyam,

This is a good source of info the may cover your questions. There are links within it too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

Jon

Dear Shyam,

I donot know the details, but only that some use Pu, some Americium.

There was a post one or two years ago here on CR4 that had a lot of details but I couldnot find it again.

If you search not only Google and Wiki but also NASA and ESA there will come up a lot.

RHABE

Both material are fission material and are Neutron sources.

Shyam,

Both?

There more than 2.

The stuff they like to use is not going to fission the way it is used. The pellet just stays very hot due to fusion until it runs down.

Jon

These materials being naturally fissile at low rate will work for longer period as energy source. Fission energy are high so they will remain hot as long as there is enough radioactivity of fissile material. After that radioactivity is of beta and gamma type in daughter products and that will hardly generate any heat. I now understand why they use radioactive neutron sources and not gamma sources. Even though these sources also will give out beta and gamma, but that is not what is giving rise to temperature to the pallets. Often pallets of 10mm dia. 20mm long may be used and there numbers can be multiples or something similar in size can be used. Plutonium is very toxic and one need to be careful.

Shyam,

I wouldn't use it to fry my eggs without good shielding.

Those favored pellets put out a lot of heat for many years.

When the material is processed into useable heat sources they are a lot stabler and safer.

Jon

If there is active fission in these heat generators - one picture I saw of a red hot piece of unknown composition near 8cm diameter and same length makes this likely - then why not incorporate gamma-neutron reacting materials?

RHABE

I have already stated that Gamma Energy is high and belongs to each photon but not enough to heat material even if all of it is absorbed. Splitting of atom into two new atoms in fission process generates more energy and also some neutrons that can split other atoms. This process is slow unless there is a chain reaction and for which enough enriched material is required. Some Radioactive materials have spontaneous fission and do not require trigger source.

Some misunderstanding:

I got your previous statements - no problem.

I thought about gamma-N reactions to boost the fission yield.

Be is emitting neutrons if irradiated by gammas. Others too. This will enhance heat production.

RHABE

Am-Be and Pu-Be neutron sources? Be is also used as Window material in detectors as it permits low energy gamma to penetrate and keeps the vacuum intact.

Since you mentioned in post #23 that this is a pure design challenge idea, how about an energy harvesting voltage booster attached to as green a power source as you can get - a tree.

http://www.gizmag.com/tree-powered-electricity/12772/

Not exactly a 5A source (or anywhere near that much current), but then again it is a tree after all. I am sure you could find a use for it.

Just thinking outside the box.