Is It Just Me?

Welcome to the 21 century customer service system. We hope you enjoy your experience but we don't actually care if you do or not.

Unfortunately you will just have to get used to the idea of helping yourself if you want the right item the first time. I go through similar issues an a near daily basis with the type of work I do so I can relate very well to your experience.

So far I am apparently qualified to work as the head peon service manager for about a dozen stores now since its apparent that I know more about what part I need than the person who is paid to know what it is that I need help with.

Ever try and convince the parts counter guy that the alternator that you need comes in an expensive version and a cheap version depending upon which vehicle it fits? Despite the fact both vehicals part numbers in his computer reference to the same bin on the same shelf in the same store room?

His computer says the one for my application I need costs $145 and has a three year warranty and comes from bin XYZ123. The one I want fits another vehicle and also has a three year warranty and sells for $56 and it too comes from bin number XYZ123. Guess which one I want.

Yeah. We used to have a guy near here who ran a really shaky parts place. A number of basic parts fit both a VW and a Porsche. If you knew, and asked for the Porsche part, it was about half the price? Go figure.

Go figure.

there is a relationship between the two.

Here in the UK we suffer from similar problems.From the time we are capable of being bottle fed, we are taught the importance of being able to form a queue,waiting patiently,smiling at the attendant whilst in your mind you are peeling the skin from them,not drawing attention to yourself etc etc.

Its not unknown for some stores to open in the morning only to find several ppl still queueing from the day before at customer services.

Is this mentality just a British hobby or is it a worldwide phenomenon?

You need to chill I would have played in to her and asked her to show me the 3 V regular bulbs. See what she would have done then. We are not all the same up stairs so the only way she may have to relate to bulbs is the battery type.

Any way here http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/t.pl

Thanks. I already knew where to buy online. I had been hoping to pick them up overnight. It's not her being ignorant about bulbs that bothered me, it was her insistence that I had to know the battery info in order to buy a #13 bulb. Sort of like the clerk at a local hardware store a few years back. I was browsing the 5 minute epoxies when he came over. I said I was OK, but he persisted. He demanded to know what I wanted the epoxy for. I tried putting him off and he kept on. When I finally explained that I was drilling holes in the brains of squirrel monkeys and I needed a quick way to fasten a large nut in the hole (that's the truth), he got an attitude and stomped off. Go figure.

LOL Most people can't handle the truth they want it sugar coated. I do hope the monkeys were dead or that you meant that you were attaching to the skull. Because the soft tissue will not hold for long.

Also I don't think the general public knows that there are standardized numbers for bulbs. Some have a hard time figuring out which why to turn one to replace it at home.

You're right. The nut was actually glued to the skull. The only thing that went through the hole were probes.

Play into her? Then the answer would be simple. "We don't carry them".

Any electronics you would have to go on line. Radio Shack don't carry anything. Its like a retarded Best Buy.

Radio Shack. When I was a kid (long time back, I admit) I started learning electronics from an older Ham operator (we called them Elmer's, back then, but I don't know the history of the term. Anyone care to enlighten? Inquiring minds want to know. Mine does, anyway!), and we went into Radio Shack to get our parts (Small town in Northern California, in the mountains, Radio Shack shared space with Western Auto, and if you couldn't find it in one or the other, you had to go a LONG ways to find it!). When I walked into the store, and asked for a Vacuum Tube of XYZ specs (yeah, it WAS that long ago!), the guy in the store could discuss with me at length exactly how I intended to use it, how I could improve my design to use this other, less expensive, more readily available, lower power consumption, etc., etc., tube. Then when it was transistors, and later, for a short time, IC chips, I'd spec what I wanted, by part number, the guy (or sometimes girl, and BOY was I impressed! I fell in love a lot those years!) would take me to the shelf, show me the part, or show me the cross-reference to another number, or, failing that, you guessed it, discuss with me how to redesign to use another part, and the accompanying benefits.

Then, in the Navy, I moved to Japan. Went to Akihabara (Man, was that place an electronics hobbyists Heaven, in the late 70's). The only thing that slowed me down was my lousy Japanese (made a lot people laugh at my accent, but at least I didn't get shot or knifed for insulting someone's wife, trying to ask for a Thermistor), but I could get ANY part at ANY price, if I was willing to shop, and haggle.

Back to America. Radio Shack sells what? You don't even know what an IR emitter is? But your catalog says ... we don't have that part, and RS doesn't sell that part, cause we sell <phone, TV's, Stereos, phone accessories, batteries, etc.>... but, here it is, in YOUR catalog ... we don't sell those, and nobody here knows what you are talking about ....well, how about other sources, someone else who .... nope, nobody does that anymore .... but, I know I found it on line at <Digi-Key, All Electronics, ABC, etc., etc.> ... .... .... waiting for an answer ....

We don't sell that. Next!

So, order it from Asia, since that's were it mostly comes from. But, don't try to discuss cross-referencing replacement parts with them. They probably know everything there is to know about it, but can't explain it in English. And its our fault. We let the market leave the US, and England, and Canada, and ... to go where it is cheap, and lousy service is the result. HERE, where WE live. Don't know about over there, though.

Mike

I took a circular saw back to Sears once with bad BEARINGS that sounded like they might be square. The clerk told me that the damage was my fault because I must not have pure electricity at my house.

The only good part to the story was my resistance to accept his opinion. He finally "proved" his point by plugging the saw in and turning it on. The manager rushed over and in a very loud voice with a very angry tone informed the sales dude that you NEVER fire up power tools on the showroom floor. I finally got my money back and watching him get yelled at made the rest of it worthwhile.

Funny story :)

I used to work at Sears, back in the early '90's. Customer came in with a drill that had obviously been abused. Since it was an expensive item and I was in the paint department I called for a manager to approve the return (very politely). The shift super walked up glanced at the drill smiled and handed over the refund. Perplexed I asked why the refund when it had been so abused. She said, that customer would be back again and we would make up the loss for one drill, and even if we don't, that customer would do more advertising for us and bring in enough customers to more than cover that measly refund!

Unfortunately that kind of customer service seems to be long gone in America. In this day of the big box stores the corporations know that they don't need loyalty earned with either service or product, they know we don't have many options. The false lure of low prices has seduced America into this oblivion of mediocre service and flimsy cheap merchandise.

Sorry, started as a good story and descended into a rant.

Drew

If you think THAT was "Ranting" ? HUH? DUUUUHHHHH......

See me on a bad day!!!!!

You are just a (well mannered and pleasant) beginner!!!

I do try to be well mannered....but you should have heard me last night at the Cinema. They have this automated machine, you touch the screen, select your movie, swipe your card and out pops your tickets...sort of. Last night, of the two machines, one just waited and waited after swiping my card before finally asking me if I needed more time.

Since I was done waiting for it I hit cancel and went to the other machine which then promptly stuck my tickets in a slot between the dispenser and the chute for my akward retrieval.

When I finally got my ticket and tried to get into see my movie the ticket taker lady said my ticket was for an earlier movie. So the lovely machine sold me a ticket for a movie that was already over! I must have clicked on it in my haste after the problems with the first machine, but what kind of machine sells you a ticket for a ship that has already sailed?

I said to the lady, can I just go see my movie? You can see that I did buy a ticket and your machines are not working correctly, just let me go see my movie. The answer was NO we must refund your old ticket and print you another for the correct movie time!

After that wonderful customer service and hassle, I think I will find another cinema to attend in the future.

Drew

Similar story, heart-warming. Get my business if I ever need to buy lady's shoes (since that's all this store sells!). A friend went shopping in a Mall near the Pentagon (near Washington, DC, USA, for anyone checking), and found a pair of shoes she liked, so she made note of it, and went on shopping. Found another store that did not have the shoes she liked in her color, but had them in a different color, at a better price. She told the clerk in what became her favorite store about the shoes in the other store, which she would have to go back for, at a higher price, if he didn't have them in her color. He said "wait here, please", left the store, went to the first, bought the shoes from them at their price, brought them back to her, sold them to her at his (discounted) price. She is a dedicated customer. Go figure!!

Did I miss something there, or did he just take a loss on his intended price in order to gain customer loyalty? Man, I wish I could wear ladies shoes.

On second thought, no, I don't. Those things always LOOK painful! But I'd sure like to find a tool store that would treat me that way! I'd even pay inflated prices sometimes to keep a store like that in business!

Mike

I have good news for you: Since it became fashionable defying the thermodynamic laws, I suppose that challenging geometry also would be OK, so I'm engaged in the development of ladies' shoes which are #6 outside and #10 inside.

Speaking seriously, I had an experience like that. I was working in Porto Alegre (Brazil), and the company had made an agreement, for us to have lunch and dinner, with a local, small restaurant, like Mom and Pop's (except that there was no Mom, and Pop was José Carlos).

We would take all our meals there, and got increasingly surprised because Ze Carlos, who carefully supervised every table, never could say "No". Being all foreigners, my coworkers and I frequently tried to order meals which are not a staple in Brazil. In those cases, the answer invariably was: "Só um minutinho" ("just a minute"). Ze Carlos would disappear for half an hour, then coming back with the order.

Later on, we discovered how that worked: When asked for something that was missing at his restaurant, Ze Carlos hurried to the market, bought all the necessary stuff, and prepared a delicious meal. So, I didn't get surprised when one of those nights he proudly showed me an issue of "A Folha" (a local newspaper), where he had been nominated "best restaurateur in the city".

It sounds like he earned, the hard (HONEST!) way, the acclaim. We have to hope that a great deal of repeat business followed. He certainly sounds like he deserved success!!

Mike

I think faulty logic is the norm for our day. I called up the airline to book a ticket to Singapore. "Oh sorry sir but since it is within 24 hours of flight time you need to go to the ticket office to pay for it." I travel down town, park, wander around looking for the office, find it, que up, and then get to the agent who processes my ticket, and takes my credit card. He then presents me with a slip of paper.

Me: "What is this?"

Agent: Your electronic ticket.

Me: If you are issuing me an electronic ticket, why couldn't I have done this on the internet or over the phone?

Agent: But it less than 24 hours before flight time.

Me: So? Airlines around the world issue tickets online within 24 hours of flight time. It took your computer about 2 minutes to verify my credit card and issue my ticket. Why did I have to come to the ticket office?

Agent: Because it is less than 24 hours before flight time.

Then on the return, I needed to change my return flight. The Singapore agent tells me I need to go to the Singapore ticket office to reissue my ticket. I say, "can't I just get my ticket reissued at the airport when I get there?"

Agent: "We don't issue tickets at the the airport."

Me: "It's a bloody airport! What do you mean you don't issue tickets there?"

Welcome to Singapore Steve. Now you know why I'm such an anal-retentive grouch.

It's bad enough when you have numbskulls like these in frontline counter service. Just imagine what it would be like if they are in senior government positions. On second thought, you don't need to imagine it. I can tell you all about it.

2 years ago I was working on a constructed wetland wastewater recycling project as a volunteer consultant for a local school. I was at my workplace when I received a phonecall. It was from an official in the local water authority. He asked me how I intended to prevent mosquito breeding in the subsurface flow module. I asked him if he knew what subsurface flow meant. He replied: "Yes. That means there's no open water on the system." I then asked him: "So there's no open water, right?" and he replied: "Yes." I then asked him: "So then there's nowhere for the mosquites to lay their eggs, right?" and again he replied: "Yes." So I then shot back: "So if there's no open water for the mosquitoes to lay their eggs in, then what mosquito breeding are you talking about?!" And all he could reply was a sheepish "Oh!"

Nor was that the only one. 5 years ago I was working on a wetland wastewater recycling project in Nias, an Indonesian island devasted by the Dec 26 2004 tsunami. The Red Cross chairman demanded to know what the purpose of the wetland was, and when he found out that it was for wastewater treatment and recycling, he demanded to know why we couldn't construct an RO plant instead. On a budget of $1,000,000 that included the construction of a livelihood sustainability training center and the development of farms and housing for the survivors! And on an island inhabited almost entirely by uneducated farmers and fishermen at that!!!!

Naturally, I didn't know whether to laugh or scream at his stupid question. He even demanded an explanation for the selection of treatment methods. So in the end I gave him a sarcastically-worded letter that I would gladly design the RO wastewater recycling plant for him if the Red Cross would pay me to work in Nias for at least 4 years, for the operation and maintenance of the plant including the cost of necessary chemicals and membrane replacement, for the training of the locals to take over its future operation, and to construct a power generation plant to power it. According to the project manager, the Red Cross chairman's face went purple with rage when he got to the end of the letter where my sarcastic remarks were. So it appears that he was smart enough to know that I was mocking him, but not smart enough to know that Nias is too undeveloped and its inhabitants not sufficiently educated for an RO plant to be viable. And he's the former supreme commander of the Singapore Armed Forces at that. So now you know why Singapore is so notorious for poor customer service.

And the moral of these stories? There will always be dumb people in frontline customer service everywhere you go; putting them in high positions doesn't improve the situation any.

Actually, I am a bit thankful for these incompetents...They create work for those of us who happen to know a little something...Give someone a good answer to a question, and you are likely to have a well-paying customer for life. If they decide they don't want to pay, send them off to the local hardware store to find the answer themselves. They usually come back to where the answers are...

No, it's not just you.

In these situations I find it best to just kindly educate them.

Takes a boatload of patience yes, but you'll feel better afterwards.

Unless they're complete dicks, then fsck'em.

I was at the local building center the other day and was looking at all the types and sizes of insulation the carry in stock and found one that was exactly what I needed for reinsulating my house while I am replacing my roof.

I talked with one of their design center experts in order to get the right insulation and in the type that would work on my house. He did the math with a calculator and I even pointed out exactly what insulation I wanted right on the computer screen. Good day! It was on sale and the bundles I had chosen worked out to exactly what I needed plus a few feet extra for just in case.

Yesterday I went in to pick it up along with some other materials I was waiting for and when I went to grab the insulation bundles I saw that the numbers on the bundles I wanted was not the same as what the sheet said. What I had chosen the day before was this exact bundle number and size.

Despite him having done the math with a calculator and having had me point out exactly what I wanted on the computer screen he still had managed to F it up and sold me half of what I had needed and in a completely different style and size. I never caught it because I had made the terrible assumption that since he used a calculator and I had personally pointed out what I wanted that the order was correct when I paid for it.

How stupid was I for assuming the design center could figure out a design for me even while I had held their hand through most of it?

I went to Circuit City a number of years ago, wanting to buy an element for an electric range.

Pulled the old one out, took it to the store, presented it and asked for one. The smiling helpful attendant found it and then asked, "when would you like to schedule the installation?"

Told him I just needed the element, not installation. He then told me he couldn't sell the element by itself, as I was incapable of installing it. Assured him that I had replaced these things before, was a mechanic, engineer and very technically savvy.

Didn't matter. He KNEW I was incapable of installing it. My response was, "service like this, you'll go out of business one day."

TAH-DAH!!!

A number of years ago, I wanted some rubber sheeting to put on the back steps, and I needed it to be non slip, I went to the store and asked if they had any sheet rubber about a meter wide with nonslip grooves in it. the answer was no, when I turned around to leave, there in front of me was a large roll of grooved rubber, when I brought this to his attention, his reply was, no sir that is not grooved rubber that is serrated rubber?

Regards JD.

This person demonstrated "First Day on The Job Syndrome".

Some can maintain it for 20 years.

Good post!

Many problems:

How to decide if there is a chance to educate the clerk and how to achieve a measurable result and not awaiting my internal presure grow up to unbearable limits?

RHABE

What's worse is when you are a woman and know what tool or piece of hardware you want and the male clerk automatically assumes you do not and usually is totally ignorant of the whatever you are asking for. So I usually play stupid to get him off my case so I can look for it myself.

Most sales associates are hired base on the fact that can match a picture to the desired object, follow rote orders, and to definitely not think for them selves. Less not forget, they must properly learn the use of a scanner and count up to what the register says is change.

My wife and daughters and I observed that when a woman walks into a car repair shop, about 75% of the time, the manager or mech will think she is too dumb, stupid, or ignorant to be able to tell when he is snowing her. So imagine their surprise, since I taught all of them how to work on and UNDERSTAND their vehicles, when a stupid guy decides one is ripe for the plucking. I've watched my eldest daughter, who taught my sons how to replace timing chains and gears, brake drums, discs, pads, shoes, and Master Cylinders, Radiators, hoses, and water pumps, and who knows by now what all else, demolish a mechanic who tried to sell her Intake Tract Cleaning Services, when she explained to him that the timing problem was because he had just re-timed the distributor (yes, they were old cars) by hand, and proceeded to reset the timing by ear, then show him that the valve lash was wrong by bumping the engine over manually to number 1 TDC, and wiggling the rocker arm. Then she borrowed his feeler gauge and cold set the valve to spec. THEN, she took him to our car to fix the problem he hadn't fixed before, and explained to him which part of the bill I wouldn't be paying, and which part was legitimate, and I would pay. When he wanted to talk to "her father" she pointed to me. Since I had seen the whole thing, he gave up.

I don't worry too much about any of them getting robbed because they are "dumb women". But you're right, too many of US see YOU as targets of opportunity. And the only fix I've seen is to let them stick their foot in it, then cut it off at the hip. They won't LIKE you for it, but the smart ones will LOVE you for it.

Micah

Its no different in Europe, sadly.

Many years ago I tried to get women interested in becoming Computer Engineers in the UK for the (US) company I worked for then..... Not one wanted to even tryout!!!!!

Some women (not your Daughter!!!!)are their own worst enemies.......

Yeah, I've seen that too. But the guys at college loved my daughter. She could tune up their cars. But if she'd have brought home a doofus that couldn't or wouldn't maintain his own car, I'd have shot them both! She hasn't found a guy yet, but she's still available, and looking. Just has some pretty high standards. And for that, I'm especially proud of her!

I LOVE THIS BLOG!!!!!

This could get to a record breaking (bath? Kris?) length!!!!!

I am glad that I am not alone in getting hot under the collar when I get in these situations with total dimwits!!!!

Welcome Brothers and sisters!!

What do you expect? Yours isn't a standard customer requirement and the lady would not be clerking in a hardware home building supply store if she was technically qualified.

Answer "some two and some three (batteries)" and you will at least be directed to the right part of the shelves.

(I would be more worried about the destructional propensities of your students; what will their roles in life become? Either way, I'd be inclined to specify the higher Voltage bulbs for future experiments)

'Oh, yes..We of great minds tend to hire people we can afford to pay and hope they do the job required,but there is to many projects and to many people needing work in and out of there field..Gone are the days when the mechanic was the best parts man. He had been there and done that..the computer rules "if its not in the computer we don't have it and its laying on the counter in plain sight..We hired a computer person not a parts man..so be it..the knowledge we need lies within..I had a best friend that was a expert carpenter and a pawn shop specialist, He bought a Laser level that turned corners, for $200, a $600 item. Somehow he was missing a part and I searched the internet and found a company who built them in Okla City.Being from the country we drove 80 miles, found the building, went in and told the receptionest what we needed and she said to wait in the sitting room, 'I knew we were way over our heads', she came in and said "Mr. Johnson will be here in a moment he's on the 6th. floor. Mr Johnson showed up in a plush suit and tie and stated that their Co. made the level and could order the part for $300 Or we could go the local outlet for home rehab. to buy one as they had just donated 350 of the levels to the center..very nice and gental person..We met a lady at the rehab.center who had no knowledge of what we wanted but she had the complete level for $8 each..My friend never ask me to find anything else...Sometimes we just have to be patient and work with what we got for help...it's getting worse

This is just a wild guess, but I suspect that the problem lies in the way these mega stores hire people. Hiring is done by the HR department, usually based on a 'personality' test. Many of these tests are done on line, so if you want to see for yourself, go to a big box store website and apply for a job. It could be a real eye-opener.

You would think that if the head of say the plumbing dept needed a new person on the floor, they would want someone with experience in plumbing, or at least in general construction. But chances are that somebody from the trade will have a strong personality. They might have smoked pot. They might not have that clean-cut look. They might expect to get paid more than minimum wage. And anyway, the head of the plumbing dept doesn't make the hiring decision. HR does, and they are not really interested in knowledge or skills. IT'S THE PERSONALITY STUPID!

I'm lucky that in the 40+ years of my working life, I have almost always worked for myself. When I have worked for someone else it has usually been for a friend I already knew, so I was hired based on what I knew and what I could do. No HR department. Also, I live in a town with a real hardware store, with creaky wooden floors, a kerosene stove for heat, and aisles full of stuff in wooden bins. The clerks are always helpful, but they aren't overbearing or territorial, and don't mind if I just browse. I almost always find what I'm looking for, or something I can take apart and modify. The owner of the store does the hiring. It's all so quaint.

Because I own a small business, every day I get dozens of emails about the latest trends in HR management. I get lots of advice on how to get rid of pesky employees with tattoos without getting sued, how to handle religion in the workplace, people who need time off for family emergencies, how to motivate people without giving them anything real in return, and other such useful stuff. I am very grateful that none of this means anything to me.

There is much to be said for the advantages of large corporations, and economies of scale. Home Depot (where a helpful salesperson told me where to find the real hardware store) buys in bulk, and can sell the mass market items they choose to carry at the lowest possible price. But it is just not feasable for them to stock all the wierd stuff I might need (like a 2-56 set screw or some brass shim stock), so they don't. And it is not feasable for them to hire people who are knowlegeable about their products, because of costs, and because know-it-alls can be dickish. Ignorant sheep are usually easier to get along with, even if they are not very good at their jobs.

Big stores are not about meeting the needs of thier customers - they are about meeting the needs of enough of their customers to make a profit. Service is not one of those areas in which bigger is better, since service ultimatley involves just two people. If the person providing the service doesn't have what you want, they may take it personally, since the failure reflects on them personally. But a large corporation doesn't and can't really give a damn. You are just some niche market that they choose not to serve because it offers no advantage to their share holders. In the long run the big box stores will win, and I would guess that in a few years the hardware store will be gone.

See my personal quote below for all of life's answers.

And add on, The third best hire everyone who works in customer service!

This thread surely has to go down as the most pathetic piece of self promoting BS that I have seen on this site in quite a while. All of the stories about how great each and every poster is is pathetic. How each of you konow everything and everyone else knows nothing.

I am annoyed at myself for replying to this thread but to be honest I cannot help myself. Before you all start to slate me off, just look back at 90% of the posts and tell me that I am wrong.

I think I have a right, because I worked in the dark ages (manual cash registers) as an adult in retail and was expected to know and do a lot more for less than minimum wage. So I don't give the clerks a break when they know nothing and couldn't give you change back if it wasn't on their display.

If you tolerate some of the customer service as described, then how do you describe yourself.

Not sure how you came away with that impression.... How is any of this self promoting? Not one of us claimed to know everything...

You are wrong.

Self-promoting was the wrong phrase. (There's that know it all attitude again. )

I think what the poster meant was, implied and unspoken in the stories, is that the person telling it knows something the clerk or service person doesn't know -- thus a "know it all" attitude. An incorrect assumption. The point is, if you work in an industry, department, or service, you should at least know as much about your line of work as your customer. This is the ideal. In most cases, customers are NOT experts in what they need and so the blind leading the blind isn't exposed. There ARE knowledgeable service personnel out there, but they are fewer and farther between and it is not getting better.

How each of you konow everything and everyone else knows nothing.

We don't know everything. If we did know everything we would know why everyone else knows nothing!

We are just assuming it has something to do with our wanting better service since most of us at one time, and some of us still are, in the service field and either had to know everything about what we where selling or at least took great pride in being able to answer any customers question about anything we dealt with just off the top of our heads correctly!

My first job was a a convenience store clerk. And I took it as my duty to know every thing I could learn about every thing that store carried. It may have been as simple as making sure the grab and go food and coffee was ready before the breakfast and dinner rush and the bathrooms and floors are clean but still I did it with some degree of pride.

The people who work there now are the same age as I was when I worked there and rarely is there enough food prepaired for breakfast or diner, the floors are dirty and the bathrooms are worse than my own! And dont even think of asking any thing about the items they have on the selves either.

Whom do you expect to be in good position to judge the quality of this type of customer service? Anyone with less knowledge than the staff person?

It's no wonder that 90% of the comments highlighting this problem has come from people having some degree of expertise: uninformed customers usually get the same kind of "help", but in those cases ignorance and lack of sense go unnoticed.

You are COMPLETELY wrong.......(well you did ask!!)

You also know you you are wrong, or you would have posted with your real CR4 name and not as a guest!!!

AND NEVER FORGET, its like the TV, if you don't like the program either change the channel or switch it off...its real simly and easy to do!!

Is that to shovel knowledge IN with, or something else out (or aside, so we don't have to step in it?) First way, works fine, I suppose, since that is in the "coal shovel" style, and works for dry stuff going in to stoke fires. But the second way, he probably needs a Yeevil.

http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/23937282#

(sorry, I tried for a picture. No one has one. But my mom knew what one was, having grown up as a Mennonite farmer's daughter in America. I guess they would know, wouldn't they?)

Best I could get you was this:

Yeevil: A fork used for pitching dung.

I suspect that it's not quite the real thing, but will this do for now??

Yep. That's more of a hay fork, with the wide tine-spacing being for more fluffy material, like hay (Duh, Mike!), but the concept works. A Yeevil is a narrower (about half that width, all things considered, or maybe less) with the same number of tines. It usually is a little shorter in the handle, also, since a hay-fork needs a greater reach to "throw" hay, and a Yeevil doesn't, since throwing "that stuff" as far is usually not very conducive to good relationships with your co-workers (co-farmers? co-stablehands? co-OPERATORS!).

It's funny, but when I first heard of a Yeevil, my Mom, who was visiting, with my Dad, from their home in California, knew the exact definition of the word, which in the game of Balderdash, is a huge point maker. And she knew it because she grew up as a Mennonite, in America (her Dad was a carpenter, but all Mennonites farm, too!). But the online dictionaries (forget the print dictionaries, they didn't even HAVE a reference to it) said that it came from an Ethiopian word, and is only known in Ethiopia. And only one of those, a relatively obscure one, even had that.

Amazing what those Mennonites know, isn't it? Must be cause farmers share a lot knowledge to make the job easier. Think we could convince our bosses to be Mennonites?

Or even more, convince the poor kids in the big-box store's boss's to see it that way? Service quality could even improve.

GASP! What am I saying?

Mike

Micahd when I was younger use to working on my grandmother's dairy farm. A Yeevil just don't cut it in the milking barn. That is the shovel of choice. Should work for BS though I never saw any in the milk barn and never got the pleasure of mucking it out.

Pleasure? Man, you ARE weird! But thanks. I can imagine you have more personal experience than I, since the last time we had a cow was when I was in about 2nd grade. Moved to the city about two years later, and a succession of small towns and cities followed for the rest of my life, to date, with no more time anywhere near a real farm, except when I foisted myself on someone for the sake of learning. Did process a flock of chickens a few weeks ago, and that was fun for my wife and I. Helped out a friend, and learned (Re-learned, maybe) some interesting things.

OK, on re-thought, pleasure it is.

Mike

Just to add to the length of this thread, this is one of my favorites:

I worked at a marina. It was a breezy day, I looked up and saw a sailboat coming to the dock out of control. Sailboats don't have very good brakes. The jib was flapping before the boat, it had been released, probably in an attempt to reduce speed. The wind was directly behind the boat, so it wasn't slowing down any time soon. A panicking tourist was on the very bow, thinking he was going to stop the boat somehow. There was nothing anybody could do, so we just watched and waited. The boat slammed into the dock, throwing the tourist onto the dock, luckily unharmed. The boat climbed the dock like a charging rhino, then settled down. The rest of the crew tossed us a line, and we tied the boat up in the slip.

The dock attendant in charge comes out of his booth and says "It's in the wrong slip".

ah,yes,people who think they know everything are extremely annoying to those of us that do!lol.With codes and osha and all the other agencies protecting us from ourselves on a daily basis, murphy and darwin dont have a chance.The idiots just keep on reproducing,instead of killing themselves off,thereby reducing the overall intelegence of the gene pool.I am not wrong on this, you can just go to a site that buys female eggs for implant. In order for a woman to sell her eggs for a good price,one of the criteria is intelegence.Smart can be bred,not 100% of the time,however. The group of people i joined the army with had various gt scores on their army asvab test, my score was 143,the highest in the group was 160 ish. After basic training was over, the guy with the highest intelegence score took his $5000 enlistment bonus,put a downpayment on a corvette,and dissapeared,went awol.lol.A few months ago, i went in lowes and got some parts for the chimney for the wood stove i was building. I had some black stove pipe,and some silver duct connector pipe in my hands. A clerk rushed over and told me "you cant use those together"well i slipped one into the other,and said "yes i can,see"Now i know your not supposed to,and codes wont let you,either, but for the stove i was building, they were fine together.The exit temp usually stays under 200f. You should have seen the look on his face as he rushed off to tell someone else what i was doing.Then one day i was building a rather large air cannon,with a scuba tank as the air supply. I brought the scuba tank in with me, and proceded to piece together a rather large and ominous looking air cannon right there in the store to make sure i had all the right lengths of steel pipe and fittings. No one said a word to me about it. Go figure.I was half expecting the sherriff to show up while i was making that in there.I am in the tree care industry, and used it to send a throwline into very large trees to set my climbing rope with.They make a commercially available big slingshot to do it with, but i dont like looking like ellie mae clampet on the jobsites.This is much more impressive to my customers that a big yellow slingshot.And tree work can be an elaborate show for customers, or it can be a keystone cops show, with people bumbling all about tripping over oneanother. I prefer to put on a show. swinging from one tree to the next, and getting into elaborate rigging to make limbs fly from the back yard to the truck in the front yard.This thread is getting too long to get into the details of how i had to go through 3 people one day to get a cheeseburger from mcdonalds,and not the double cheeseburger they were promoting.I finally pointed to the sign''billions and billions served"and asked the manager if she could make just one more.lol.

Hey, thanks for the tip about the giant slingshot. I have been standing in the woods shooting arrows, trying to get a thin string over a big widow-maker so I could pull up a thick string so I could pull up a rope so I could pull up a steel cable. Well, you get the idea. The trouble is the brush is so darn thick, the string keeps getting caught and it takes 10 minutes and three new swear words to get it untangled. I'll get me an inner tube and a plumb weight and, at the very least, should be able to kill a few endangered Blue Jays.

See, that's what good about talking with people. If you're willing to listen to people (and I am), you can learn a heck of a lot. Then later I'll pretend like I knew this trick all along. BTW, I thought Ellie Mae was cute and smart.

I saw her a few years ago on TV, she still looks pretty good, when you consider her age (now 76 I believe).....

instead of the innertube slingshot, you can go to vermeer or an arborists supply place and get 12-16 oz throwballs and a spool of slickline, but be prepared to spend about $45. The slickline is needed to keep the string from catching on the bark and hanging up.I can place a line about 65 feet in a tree by just throwing it by hand,using an underhand throw with about 2 feet of lead from the weight.then you pull your other rope up with that. the slickline i believe is rated at 500lbs, but is very light and flies well.Or run an ad on craigslist and get a tree climber off duty to go up in the tree and remove the limb for you. I usually only charge $25 or so per limb.But i doubt your within a few minuits of ft.knox.

The problem was that before all of this safety and injury prevention crap got started stupid people where dieing left and right. They nearly went extinct at one point.

The safety agencies, for some unknown reason, were originally formed to help stabilize the population of stupid people and help encourage them to go forth and multiply. Just don't ask them to add, subtract, or divide. Strangely its beyond their capacity and understandings.

Now due to over protection and lack of proper population control they have gone from an endangered species to an infestation with no real way of being controlled due to so many of them having managed to acquire positions in the very agencies that protect them from themselves thus preventing the natural course of checks and balances from keeping their population numbers under control.

Or at least thats my theory.

Oh really? Is this 'A Modest Proposal' offered as satire, or do you have actual evidence that only stupid people are killed and injured in industrial accidents? I would like to see your sources. When did we see this golden age when stupidity was in danger of extinction? Unless you meant this as a joke, it sounds like you have a rose colored rear-view mirror.

I would have thought that decent people living in democratic societies might have found it morally repugnant to see so many of their friends and family killed and maimed, so that a few people, safe in their offices, could make huge profits. You may well be right that the number of stupid people is rising, but doesn't this have more to do with attitudes about family size and contraception, than with the the abandonment of a wise and secretive plan by the captains of industry to design our workplaces so as to kill off the stupid? You may also be right that safety regulations often go too far, but isn't this just the 'swing of the pendulum' that afflicts most democratic societies?

Anyway this seems to be straying from the original subject of this post. IMHO there are so many stupid people working in sales for big retailers, because this is the way the big retailers like it. It is frustrating for some segments of their customer base, but profitable enough for them.

I think it is also important to note that most workers in developed economies don't get to actually make anything anymore. Advances in automation and increased productivity started this trend, and more recently the off-shoring of manufacturing has accelerated the change. Nowdays more people work not with things but with other people. They are increasingly cut off from material reality, where the laws of physics and chemistry rule, and where common sense and empirical evidence are the road to success. In a Kafkaesque world where reality is interpersonal relationships and mindless adherence to rules made by management, common sense is a liability. I guess you could say that we have been crippled by our success. It's the law of unitended consequences.

You might have noticed at the top of my post, that the thought had crossed my oh-so-dull mind that this could be a lame attempt at humor and satire. Maybe what you think is funny is just an inside joke. Maybe humor is best left to the pros who are smart enough to let the tongue in their cheek show just a bit. Killing people in industrial accidents for the good of the species may be a good bit for a joke, but its a tricky one that requires a better setup. Keep trying, but don't quit your day job.

I dont think anyone mentioned industrial accidents. We were talking/joking about helplessly confused no time in life no purpose on planet people,who the codes and rules and laws protect from hurting themselves.Like people who bring their gas can into the garage because its raining outside or somthing,into the same garage as the gas hot water heater is in.And individuals who know nothing about the place or products they are supposed to be acting as "customer support"Take my industry for example. Tree care. There are plenty of bosses who will send a climber up into a dead tree to remove it, knowing full well that dead trees are unstable,because they dont own or dont want the expense of using the bucket truck and bosses who dont care if their climbers dont use a safety strap or 2 when spurring up a tree trunk,and let them climb extreme solo, because they get to the top and tie in much faster.usually things will work out ok,the dead tree doesnt break below you and you dont grab a squirrel or wasp on the way up free climbing.I have personally known 2 climbers that died, and have heard of several more dying because they were to STUPID to do it right,the slow safe way they were taught.The osha and ansi regs didnt help them any.My father also had a cousin who,despite mythbusters tests disproving the theory, who blew himself through an outhouse dropping a match in to see what it looked like down there,dispite being warned his whole short life not to do it. If you can find reruns or copies of a short lived tv show,aired on a&e, i believe, called "saw for hire" you can witness some of the stupid things people do. Or search youtube for tree.I have filled in for many climbers over the years,oh, they were good, they were fast, they could do anything,but...they were in the hospital that season.Stupid people need to be allowed to kill themselves off for the common good of the gene pool. and,by the way since this thread is annoying some people, CLONE THE WHALES

We were talking/joking about helplessly confused no time in life no purpose on planet people,who the codes and rules and laws protect from hurting themselves... Stupid people need to be allowed to kill themselves off for the common good of the gene pool. and,by the way since this thread is annoying some people, CLONE THE WHALES

Exactly, Amen, and ROFL! (I suggest using spotted owl placentas in the cloning research.)

I still find it strange that out of all these stories the two off remarks I made got good answers points though. I guess some engineers do have a sense of humor!

OF COURSE WE HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOUR!!!!! Somedays anyway....

The brownie points were probably from people who have become accustomed to your style and can see them in context. Unfortunately, there are people who make the same statements in all seriousness, people who run companies, who would like to dismantle all of the safety requirements because they think that these requirements rob the corporate bottom line.

I think there is a case for both sides.....I will play Devil's Advocate for a moment...

In Germany, safety is such a "God" to the people generally (since 1945 I hasten to add!), its really overdone.....and I am someone who really is keen on "Intelligent" safety.....anyone who knows me on these pages can back me up on that.....

Sadly, keeping the REALLY stupid ones alive through safety laws etc etc. (eg. not allowing them to accidentally kill themselves, or even to spill hot coffee on themselves and get a $10 million payout from MacDonald's!!), actually dilutes the intelligence of the human race as a whole, as they beget progeny......that continue the trend.....

Its a difficult call and I guess we are stuck with what we already have. Anything else smacks far too much of Hitler and Himmler.....

I still enjoy looking at Darwin Awards though, it gives me hope!!!! Check this link out and have a Macabre laugh!!!

http://www.darwinawards.com/

I have similar sentiments myself. I grew up on a farm with older model equipment which by todays standard would be seen by many 'educated safety experts' as too unsafe to use. But for the people who work around it and have experience and good understandings of what to watch out for its not unsafe but just something that needs added caution and awareness when working around it.

One aspect of safety I have came to know well is the simple but often grossly overlooked concept of knowing and understanding what it is your working with and how much more powerful it is than you it can be. If a hay bailer can rip a misplaced pitchfork out of your hands, crush it and spit it out the back neatly compacted into a hay bail with the effort you put into chewing a piece of gum, that should give a person a reasonable understanding of why it should be respected and that keeping your hands clear of its moving parts is important!

The same goes with any item we encounter every day. If its hot guess what... If you pour it on yourself it hurts! If its sharp just assume that it can cut and poke you! If it sucks in something and precesses it it can do the same to you as well!

Back in the day the fact of knowing that one of your local idiot friends was careless and that it got him pulled into a machine and killed was enough to keep yourself keenly aware of your surroundings and diligently paying close attention to what it was you are doing so as to make sure your don't become the next dead idiot in the village! Kill one to warn a thousand.

I do believe in safety but I also believe it should be used in moderation just as anything else should. Too much safety can make working conditions as unbearable and far less productive than when no safety is practiced at all. If a machine has a dangerous moving part that can be effectively shielded without compromising the function and capacity of the machine then by all means use it! However don't conclude that it should also have six levels of paperwork and require three safety inspectors to sign off on it that the shield is in place every single day.

There is a practical balance between safety and being aware that the conditions you are in could be or are potentially dangerous and thusly could result in your being injured or worse if your careless or lacking in the proper mind set that you need to pay attention to whats around you.

Like it or not your safety is your responsibility and no one else's. Its when people start placing their own responsibility on someone else that problems arise as we see today.

If you disagree about your safety being your responsibility first just stick your hand in my hay baler and let that be a lesson to everyone else! You will likely see the folly of your arrogance in believing that your safety was my responsibility when your about shoulder deep and disappearing fast!

For me I like to think that I am just not quite stupid enough to go and stick my hand in a machine in the first place even though it doesn't have a sticker that warns me not to do it anyway. For me the numerous scars and the memories of how I got them work far better as safety reminders than any stickers ever will!

yea, i work in the tree care industry,and everyone knows to let go of the brush when the chipper grabs it, or ride home in the back of the dumptruck.lol.I even do all my own chainsaw work, i wont let my hired help touch a chainsaw,and they are all experienced tree service personell,with LOTS of chainsaw experience.I dont want to pay for the village idiot.Give the crew saws,and the first thing they will do is cut a $150 rope in half,then they will run over a saw with a truck,then they will get cut with the new saw,it never ends,good help is so hard to find,and people want to know why tree companies charge so much. my partner and i usually chip the brush,too,lol.The labor,when i use any, only does the leg work,moving stuff from the back yard to the trucks,I cut everything small enough so they dont hurt themselves being macho,trying to drag a tree to the truck,also,lol.Good help is VERY hard to find nowdays.If i am not working by myself, i constantly have to make sure no one is under me while i am cutting off a limb,it never ends.

It might become sensible to think about this sort of thing when we have sorted out the various sorts of deprivation.

On the other hand, changing times demand changing characteristics, and it might just be that some of your fools carry traits which might in due course prove essential to the survival of the species (what do you mean, this feeble hairless creature is going to become dominant...?).

Unless/until we are omniscient, I suggest we apply so far as possible the sentiments of the US constitution - even if we don't fully believe them.

("We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,...")

Signed

number one humour deficient moron

Well said. It is wrong to think that the ability to survive and prosper under man-made conditions is a proxy for fitness. That is 'social' Darwinism. At the moment we seem to be taking a pause in our evolution. The way the world works now, survival and reproduction are due as much to the accident of where you were born as they are to any innate 'superiority'. As a species, we seem to be heading for a rough patch. Who makes it out the other side is anybody's guess.

I'm glad to hear that you were joking, and glad that some folks here understood that. To me it was unclear, because the subject matter is pretty dicey. As others have pointed out:

• Some people have friends or family who have died on the job. Not all of them were stupid, unless by stupid you mean they really needed that pay check.
• Some people speak as you do about how oppressive OSHA and other work safety regulations are, and they are completely serious. We even have a political party and TV network for them.

I agree with you that there are a lot of stupid people out there (being one of them myself), and that they can be a danger to themselves and to others, and a burden on the economy. This may be a problem without a solution, but I'd try to educate them rather than wishing they would just die and get out of the way.

I used to rely on my rose-colored rear-view mirror until I noticed that the many legends it had (i.a. "Objects in the mirror are less rose-colored than they appear", "Warning: Choking hazard if this mirror breaks to pieces") prevented me from seeing anything at all.

Guest,

It's not about being know-it-alls (though I freely admit to sometimes being that way - I've paid my dues and I really do know some things ), but about getting decent service in a store. I personally don't mind being around know-it-alls if they really do know it; it's the arrogance of ignorance that pisses me off. Many of us have that experience of going into a store and asking for, say, some blue, stranded, 12 AWG THHN wire, only to be told that THHN isn't made in blue and that nothing smaller than 10 AWG is stranded anyway. What do you do, drive 10 miles to the next store where you pray somebody actually knows something, or insist on getting another clerk, or (better) bashing this clerk's head in with the handy conduit bender, then looking for yourself? I only wish for people who don't know to say, "I don't know, give me a minute and I'll find out."

I don't know how some assistants survive. I went into a hardware sore, chose a large screwdriver and cold chisel. The checkout girl kindly put them in a paper bag for me. Holding the open bag with one hand she dropped the tools from two feet above into the bag. The bag didn't slow them down and they almost embedded themselves in the floor - fortunately her foot wasn't in the way. I didn't see her there next time, I hope she moved on before she got hurt.

Do you remember the old good times when "of-the-shelf" meant "readily available"?

Whenever I go to any of these stores, I feel overwhelmed. Like most of the posters here, the only thing I usually want is to know where I can find some stuff. Among the many things I couldn't get any help to find:

-A soldering iron. I got instead a tour around the store to show me anything from ironing irons to welding machines.

-A light bulb socket. My description rose from the plain one to "Edison socket E 27", then went down to "the thing you screw a light bulb in", with no success at all.

-Gypsum. Had I asked for ununoctium tetrafluoride, their faces wouldn't have shown more surprise.

-A saw blade. The associate insisted in knowing for which brand of machine it was. I tried to explain to her that I needed the blade for a bow saw, but she had never heard of such a weird device. I refrained from mimicking the act of sawing something; she would have surely taken it as an obscenity.

All those items were actually somewhere in the store, and I eventually was able to find them. The explanation is quite simple: During the last years, that store (one of the big two in USA) got rid of its best, experienced and savvy employees, replacing them with less expensive ignoramuses (this is a known fact, not a conjecture). The outcome is the demolition of a myth: "the customer is always right". Now, customers are right only if what they ask for is a staple. If not, they will be treated as if they were mentally challenged.

Give the poor devils a break. They clearly don't know anything about your requirements; they may also be disoriented as they have probably just completed the company's most recent course in customer disservice.

But they may be willing and able to learn. There are various ways forward: "Do you have a colleague we can ask who's been here a couple of years?" (potentially two birds with one stone), and failing that "Why don't we find this together?"

No it's not just you. I'm afraid I've coppied this from 'the thread that shall be nameless' as it is so apposite....although it's a month or so out of date, it's a good 'un.

Here's my entry for Bonkersness Of The Year. (BOTY)

We get TV Broadband and phone all from Virgin Media (used to be called ntlworld) paid on direct debit.
A few weeks ago I get a phone call from 'Customer Services' they've noticed our phone usage has gone up considerably and there have been a couple of internation calls.
Yes, we've had two family members in Hospital and my Daughter's Finnish friend has given birth, that explains it.
Do I want to change tarrif?
No thanks, I'm fine, thanks for your concern about my bill.
(There was no mention that there was any sort of 'problem') Last night we get home from Mother in Law's (she has since died) my Son says there was a call from Virgin and can I phone them. (No...I have nothing I want to say or hear from them)

When Mrs Cat tries to call her Mum to say we're home we realise we can't get a line out... calls are coming in but not out...nevermind she uses the mobile.

This morning I get onto Virgin on their magic number (which works) to report the fault....

It's not a fault, we've been cut off and 'will have to pay £100 pounds to be reconnected' ???!!!
We I'm sure you can imagine I went ballistic and demaded to speak to a supervisor.
After much heated ranting and questioning and blank refusal to pay for re-connection, it eventually come to light that...they actually want £100 of the bill to be paid as it has grow quite big...not £100 for re-connection....????
Well those two case are entirely different WTF can't thay say what they mean???
There is no satisfactory explanation as to why my direct debit is suddenly deemed inadequate...
Anyhow I pay up with my credit card, just to get the phone back on having been suitably assured that it's not actually a 're-connection charge'
Then the bloke says it may take 24 hours to come back on...!!!
I tell him it's complete bollocks as it only requires a few keystrokes ...it's not actually a bloke with a pair of wire strippers physically re-connecting anything.

To add insult to injury the bloke then has the gall to acuse me of 'being rude' (the last refuge of someone entirely in the wrong)!!!!...because I was shouting over him...well maybe that was because I wasn't interested in listening to the trite claptrap he was saying. I didn't actually swear at all which showed great restraint.

As you can imagine I have sent a 'complaint'
What a bonkers concept...cutting me off because I pay the bill???? Or I actually have the nerve to want to use the service they are selling.

I've tried to keep it brief and disspasionate..but I'm sure you can imagine the appoplectic rage it induced.
Have I won the BOTY prize????
Del

Well, the Month, anyway, Del. I mean, after all, the field is so ripe out there, you KNOW someone will top that.

They said "Design a more idiot proof widget. So I did. And sure enough, next week, there was a better grade of idiot. And he broke it. Then complained about the quality. Oh, well, they pay my bills, and it DOES keep me in a job, so I can't complain. MUCH!!"

Hey, when are you and Mrs. Cat coming over to see us here in "The Colonies" (what my other friends, in Exhall, Coventry, call it. And they are American Ex-Pats!)? I want to show you and Mrs. Cat around Washington, DC!

Mike

I'd love to take a year out and visit all the CR4 crowd (and the guys off the Primitive Archery website), could be the best roadtrip ever, and then we could make the movie.
Maybe if the kids get out of the house (and the mice) and I retire fully...
ta for the invite...
Del

Congratulations! You have been awarded our BOTY prize. The prize, its taxes and some minor administrative fees will be charged to your next bill. If you don't agree, please press ζ, and then any prime number greater than 10^(10^10000). We appreciate your calling. Please, hold on until one of our operators is available................

Ooooh oooh a prize....
I'll get my cheque book.
Del

Virgin are just as bad with their mobile service. Last month I had a larger than usual bill in similar circumstances to yours (mother's illness and death, overseas relatives etc.) I got a call threatening disconnection even though they had a direct debit, had taken my money, then put it back - their error, my threatened disconnection.

I think they must have serious customer service problems - I asked their business arm NTLWest to quote for a business line (I already have cable) , they couldn't be bothered to reply. BT have the tariffs on their website - it makes the decision quite simple.

To sum up the conclusions I think the comments here present:

1) Part of the blame is large companies not hiring competent people.

2) Part of the blame is more and more people are growing up and being educated in a "calculator"/"computer" driven world that requires less thinking and curiosity.

3) Part of the blame is pay for these jobs is low and competent people (such as the posters here) aren't applying for these jobs. (They likely would be considered "over-qualified, anyhow. But that shouldn't be a rationale.)

4) Part of the blame is on most of us for not coming up with a plan to change it all, and then doing SOMETHING to enable it. (Why is our engineering mentality not applied to these kinds of "problems".) I certainly haven't DONE anything to stem the tide, that I know of. The few times any of us have "educated" a clerk or service person less knowledgable, it may feel good, but probably does less than we think. It may make us feel good, and probably the other person bad -- although some could care less. Just recognizing the problem doesn't solve it. Maybe none of us feels "qualified" to offer a plan or wouldn't know who to submit it to. (Oh, of course, our political leaders??) Given that many here have concluded that large corporations have responsibility, what would you/we do? Many of us feel it is just good ole "common sense". But many of us also feel THAT is in short supply. In the end, probably most feel they are too busy and the problem too widespread to affect a change. (Sigh.)