Previous in Forum: Quench Press force in pounds   Next in Forum: pressure loss because of combining and dividing of flow through Tee & Y joints
Close
Close
Close
Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46

Mechanical Linkage

11/26/2009 7:01 PM

Q. Is it possible to create a hinge mechanism whereby lid will make the final approach perpendicular to the frame? We want to do away with the short stroke cylinders and replace with a mechanical link that achieved the same result. Rgds Ben

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Van Nuys, CA
Posts: 563
Good Answers: 33
#1

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/26/2009 8:05 PM

Perhaps something like an automotive hood hinge?

http://images.google.com/images?q=hood%20hinge

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/26/2009 8:53 PM

Yep - thanks good answer - I had looked at that - and also the layered Tool Box system The problem we have is there's a sheet of 0.5mm PVC reeled across the machine table face and the struts may obstruct the material - I had some odd though that a cam system would be the way - but just a thought. THe other thing is the table lid weighs 200lb

Thanks for your efforts. Ben

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Van Nuys, CA
Posts: 563
Good Answers: 33
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/26/2009 11:16 PM

How much clearance is available at the rear? You could still use a design like the hood hinges, but cantilevered off the back.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/27/2009 3:43 AM

250mm

B

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/27/2009 5:26 AM

but cantilevered off the back.
Yes indeed, and...
if you cantilever far enough back, a simple pivot approaches the perpendicular, it could be couterbalanced to even up the load, and has the magic ingredient...
Simplicity
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/27/2009 7:58 PM

Thanks...the problem is we need to drop 25mm perpendicularly on final approach.

BW's

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 1:22 AM

Welcome aboard good to see you "Finally " registered

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 3:18 AM

Yeah, but how perpendicular is perpendicular?
25mm at a 2,000mm from the pivot point subtends and angle of SFA.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#17
In reply to #10

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 9:44 AM

Funny the answer is good, but the health warning is better. Traces of nut. that means that a Squirl may be close by getting the cat out of control, in turn causing mayhem and fun.

The answer is an out board engine hydraulic lift with a stop on the rise causing a heim joint system to move the lid perpendicular on the rise and free fall with hydraulic control on the drop, corner guides on the drop for alignment and there will be no material blockage.

You then achive a perfect open and close each time.

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 2:02 PM

Thanks - this sounds like the best solution so far - off the shelf - can lift 100kgs - etc

Can you kindly direct me more specifically to some reference that you may know of as a starting point for me?

Much appreciated

Ben

Register to Reply
Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6
#4

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/27/2009 1:51 AM

PROBABLY A HINGE MECHANISM WITH A STOPPER LIKE ARRANGEMENT TO GIVE ULTIMATELY DESIRED ANGLE ORIENATION MAY WORK AS FAR AS I UNDERSTOOD THE PROBLEM IF NOT PLS GIVE SOME MORE DETAILS...

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 30335
Good Answers: 818
#7

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/27/2009 8:11 AM

Many railway rolling stock manufacturers make their vehicles with "plug doors" these days. Buy a Cheap Day Return ticket somewhere and take a look on boarding the trian, maybe?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#11

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 4:35 AM

Well, what you have drawn will not give you what you want without precise timing of the cylinders. IF the main cylinder has adequate leverage for the load - consider making that subset vertically slide-able and that assembly then activated by the 'pivot' cylinder.

If this does not appeal - then consider a scissor lift intermediate linkage so that the 'lid' falls to parallel, then is locked in rotation, so falls via the scissor 'vertically'.

To solve this properly I need to know "why" and "why".

Over to you.

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#14
In reply to #11

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 9:20 AM

You will see a foil reeled across module. The system is based on vac forming. Flat 2D precut omponents are placed in to the formings horizontally by PnP. The lid has spacers to level these components when closed. If the final approach of the lid isnt perpendicular then the spacers will of course upset the level.

Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#23
In reply to #14

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 7:21 PM

I don't have CAD handy at the minute so it's Word, but I hope you get the idea. Cylinder lifts whole frame (2 of these, cross braced) (in lineal bearings (4) on box) through required 2 or whatever inches, until "stop" hits. When "frame" stops, cylinder now lifts "lid" in a pivoting manner to clear PnP operating space.

"Level adjust stop" is a pair of stop screws to set/maintain lid parallel in both axis.

The cylinder pivot point should be about 35 degrees below the main pivot (i.e. not where WORD let me put the arrow point)

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#26
In reply to #23

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/29/2009 5:48 PM

This is message of thanks and gratitude to all that have assisted so far - its a great forum - far reaching experience - Truly "Global" as it says on the label.

Knowing the project as we do - we have been leaning towards a dezine by Kyzine

We are cutting metal on the SVT, as I write. This working cell prototype aims to be completed by Feb 2010 with the Carcass finished next week.

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a new member!

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA/Europe
Posts: 4547
Good Answers: 68
#12

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 5:07 AM

Hi Ben,

With regard to your illustration..................

Is this a Cut-N-Crease table or something like a print table?

Can this be operated reciprocally or, does the 'lid' have to stay up and away from the base to allow the procedure like T shirt printing to continue and, the T shirt arranged and smoothed out?

I am thinking, if the hinge can be made longer and the hinge has a 'locking point', then when the 'lid' needs to come down, a connection to this lock can be moved by twisting the handle which runs right along the front 'top' edge?

Please get back to me.

__________________
Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=|O|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#15
In reply to #12

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 9:26 AM

You will see a foil reeled across module. The system is based on vac forming. Flat 2D pre-cut components are placed in to the formings horizontally by PnP. The lid has spacers to level these components when closed. If the final approach of the lid isnt perpendicular then the spacers will of course upset the level

Register to Reply
2
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1601
Good Answers: 57
#13

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 8:12 AM

One mechanism that will do what you want is a "four bar link". With a four bar link, if all four bars are the same length, the two surfaces will always be parallel to each other. The angular shift will be replaced by a lateral shift that will be minimized as the bar length increases.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#16
In reply to #13

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 9:30 AM

Thanks. I have to admit I don't know a four bar link but please see the picture and perhaps this may apply - if so please could you direct me to reference material

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1601
Good Answers: 57
#19
In reply to #16

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 3:32 PM

You can find the linkage here.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_bar_linkage/. It is also called a parallelogram linkage. Another option is to utilize linear bearings or bushings, like a die set.

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 6:05 PM

Thanks W for trying to help. I checked this out but as I understand it - there would need be struts that would obstruct the flow of the PVC foil as shown in my sketch.

I like the principle as it seems robust and mature and I am guessing would be easy to design by a mechanical engineer. . I guess it follows the same principle as a Jewelry Box or Tool Box. I need employ a mechanical engineer to assist resolve this question. Do you know of one?

B

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Transcendia
Posts: 2963
Good Answers: 93
#24
In reply to #20

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 10:36 PM

Cam slip straight four corner press.

__________________
You don't get wise because you got old, you get old because you were wise.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#25
In reply to #24

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/29/2009 3:50 AM

Wooohooo...GA and a Gold Star for brevity my old chum.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Anonymous Poster
#21

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 6:12 PM

Yes you can replace the cylinder with spring loaded cam too.

Anthony

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#22
In reply to #21

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/28/2009 6:30 PM

HI Anthony

I checked out the Hydraulic Jack Plate and Heim - called 'Rose' joint UK side - I found some of the kit - see pix below. Seems the perfect solution.

Do you consult for a fee? I need a little help ASAP.

BW's

Ben

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#27

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/29/2009 5:52 PM

This is message of thanks and gratitude to all that have assisted so far - its a great forum - far reaching experience - Truly "Global" as it says on the label.

Knowing the project as we do - we have been leaning towards a dezine by Kyzine

We are cutting metal on the SVT, as I write. This working cell prototype aims to be completed by Feb 2010 with the Carcass finished next week.

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
4
Power-User
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Endless Mountains of NE Pa, USA
Posts: 298
Good Answers: 20
#28
In reply to #27

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/29/2009 11:02 PM

Just a few drawings that I think takes into account Kyzine's ideas. If I'm wrong please let me know. The drawings are out of proportion to try to show the mechanism in better detail. I hope.

Fully Open

CLosed to Parallel

Fully Closed

Of course, the vertical lift cylinders can be positioned differently to lift against the lid bracket instead of the linear slide. I only showed it this way so it could be more easily seen.

Hope this helps with your project vision.

__________________
Courage is not the absence of fear, but the inner resolve to rise above it....or the inane lapse in judgement brought on by copious imbibitions....Egre Flagrus
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a new member!

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA/Europe
Posts: 4547
Good Answers: 68
#29
In reply to #28

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 12:50 AM

Hi snygolfgs,

Congrats on the drawings!

GA for that Sir!

Good luck.

__________________
Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=|O|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
Register to Reply
Power-User
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Endless Mountains of NE Pa, USA
Posts: 298
Good Answers: 20
#31
In reply to #29

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 3:36 AM

Thank you babybear! Much appreciated.

I hope it helps a little anyway.

Take care!

__________________
Courage is not the absence of fear, but the inner resolve to rise above it....or the inane lapse in judgement brought on by copious imbibitions....Egre Flagrus
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
2
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#32
In reply to #28

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 3:46 AM

"If I'm wrong please let me know" Well only in so much as you don't need a "lift" and a "tilt" cylinder. Run the "tilt" down to a foot (e.g. your lift cyl base) and it first lifts the assembly - then tilts. It's a moment thing that makes it 'sequence'.

A bit of a hoot that your 'clarifying of my design' is worth twice the votes .

But not to worry voting folks - Ben's people are fully on top of it - reward enough

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a new member!

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA/Europe
Posts: 4547
Good Answers: 68
#51
In reply to #32

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 4:05 AM

Hi Kyzine,

I also do not understand some of the voting lately!

But a GA to you Sir!

It is not something I found easy to explain as I had forget various terms. Anyway it seems to have sorted itself with yours and others help? I still am not sure why he wanted to change the hinge though. Have I missed something obvious? Knowing me I would not be surprised!

__________________
Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=|O|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#58
In reply to #51

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 7:36 AM

Hi babybear, sorry I was elsewhere, not ignoring, but I guess you have caught up with the why on the hinge thing by now, so thanks for the vote and your, as ever, exemplary manners are a joy. Now go vote for Jon's efforts - lets get some voting for positive attitude happening!?

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Endless Mountains of NE Pa, USA
Posts: 298
Good Answers: 20
#62
In reply to #32

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 8:49 AM

Hello Kyzine, I'm back.

Thank you for clarifying your original thoughts. When I saw your word drawing and what looked like the cylinder attached to the lid, I 'assumed' that the idea of the 2nd cylinder was being revisited. That's why I asked if I was correct or not. Please forgive my assumption.

Although my assumption of the design was better than the OP original in that it would reduce the torque to open the lid, your and JohnG's clever thoughts are far superior!

I hope you can work out the problem with the 'sequence' working in reverse. If you have to go with a linkage as JohnG suggested, it will still be a great design with the use of only one cylinder.

I too was surprised at the GA votes especially after reading this reply to my post explaining your idea of using the greater 'moment' and understanding what you were trying to accomplish.

I have just finished reading all of the posts here and I see that you are in direct contact with Ben and his team. Good luck to all on this project and I hope it all works out well!

P.S. (Please feel free to vote my original post as off-topic)

__________________
Courage is not the absence of fear, but the inner resolve to rise above it....or the inane lapse in judgement brought on by copious imbibitions....Egre Flagrus
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#64
In reply to #62

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 10:09 AM

Hi Snygolfgs

I am so humbled by the willingness of yourself and the community to advise and help the project.

Please keep in touch.

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
Power-User
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Endless Mountains of NE Pa, USA
Posts: 298
Good Answers: 20
#66
In reply to #64

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 10:50 AM

Hello Ben

Thank you. I hope your project works out well.

Good luck.

__________________
Courage is not the absence of fear, but the inner resolve to rise above it....or the inane lapse in judgement brought on by copious imbibitions....Egre Flagrus
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#73
In reply to #62

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 10:08 PM

Hi sntgolfgs, I don't un-vote (except once - due to a un-voting campaign of any and all other posters ideas)

It's a forum - no idea should be 'suppressed' as any idea can lead to a better idea in another's mind. That's how I see your input, all input - a conversation to find the best answer. And in this case - a bunch of people trying to guess what the hell my Word Mess meant - how on earth could I have anything but appreciation?

And yes the voting is now weird in the other direction

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
4
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#33
In reply to #28

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 3:52 AM

Like it, but OP wanted to get rid of the smaller cylinder. Here's a sketch of a variant using only one cylinder:

Acknowledgements also to Kyzine.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
2
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#35
In reply to #33

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 7:29 AM

Not bad John, not bad at all. Of the "OP wanted" whole systems so far, this is the (second) closest to required sequence and actions. The only thing is the acceleration of the lid and the vectors this produces. My first thinkings were not far from this except I had a slotted link (or pendant chain with 2" of slack) to the floor, not a suspended roller.

(Not mine but still) - Well deserved votes for 'full' OP need reading - should be more of it.

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#36
In reply to #35

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 7:32 AM

I agree - after I'd posted it, I didn't like the look of the 'floating' roller stop. A slotted link would be better.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#37
In reply to #36

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 8:02 AM

Hey John

Thanks for the brilliant help.I am not a mechanical engineer - but can see that what Kyzine has thought of and you have kindly interpreted - is elegant. Sorry to be lame - but may I please lean on your generosity and ask if you can you can kindly do me a sketch with a "slotted link"?

My votes for your and K's excellence are not enough.

Best wishes

(really enjoying this)

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#41
In reply to #36

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 8:41 AM

Well Ben is excited.

Given you have CAD about John, can you just run the cylinder rod up to the lid hinge bracket, (more or less like my Word Dog's Breakfast) and see how it behaves?

In my imagining this is superior to the link, given moment at the hinge is great enough without the extra leverage of further 'link or roller' offset.

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#42
In reply to #41

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 8:53 AM

John I meant that as "can you please do a comparison, if you have time"

It's an issue I have; "job first - social crap, oh yeah, that too, oh sorry"

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply
2
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#43
In reply to #41

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 9:01 AM

This is in response to Ben's request for a pic of the slotted link:

Close-up of the slot & pin:

Sorry about the crappy representation of angled lines.

I'm getting a bit of stick about doing some work for a change - I'll try to sketch out your scheme later (if I get a chance).

Must confess these drawings take me a while - I mostly do software (VB) and circuit (OrCAD) design - the mechanical stuff is a bit of an aside to keep the mech. designers around here pointed in the right direction .

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#44
In reply to #43

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 9:17 AM

It turns out you and Ben are in the same country - presuming some truth in 'location'. Maybe U2 get together?

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#46
In reply to #44

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 2:48 PM

Why not the 3 of us even...? You over this way K?

Please stay close and many thanks.

Yours

Ben.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#47
In reply to #46

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 3:07 PM

Think Kyzine's from the Antipodes - could be wrong.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#45
In reply to #43

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 2:38 PM

John

I get it now thanks - BTW I do do CADCAM ( Alphacam) - so anytime - but greatly appreciate the help - believe it.

Please stay close.

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
3
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#49
In reply to #41

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 3:43 AM

Think this is roughly what happens - not sure if I interpreted you correctly ...

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#53
In reply to #49

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 6:35 AM

Perfect interpretation John. And a big thanks for the effort & (see Ben)

"Up" is all good on my imagining of moments - lid has say 3:1 from lid C of G, acting about cylinder lift point exerted 'upwardly' on lid hinge, so frame lift force should be 300kg? = "adequate +". Or so long as the lift frame is not stupidly heavy lid should stay level until stop is engaged.

"Down" (view 3) may have a bigger frame weight/hesitation issue, as cylinder axis is now quite close to lid hinge and lid rotational moment expressed as a frame lift vector is very small. Depending on frame weight - lid may stay up and it all falls together. Not good.

Rather than go for springs and things, what we want is the cylinder attachment point to be closer to 45 to the hinge pivot in the lid up position (rather than the 60 this looks (to the cylinder axis)). I.e. you need to bracket below the lid arm to drop the attachment point.

I'd guess at 45 from hinge, on the cylinder axis as drawn (in view 3).

This will increase the lid leverage when down (now say 4:1 leverage? in views 1&2). But per cylinder, its only say 75kg in fist lift and say 200 kg to start tilt . Each cylinder ~ 65 bore @ 700 kPa (2.5" x 100 psi) (subject to some final weights).

Ben; As the lid final acceleration will now be quite high you may need long cushion design cylinders. Mr Festo should have or create these. With the pressure gradient between first lift and tilt it is likely 'cheaper' control wise to cut supply early and let expansion finish (into long cushion), than to go all "positional control intense".

But basically you need to get this in a modeling program with a gravity simulator to refine the geometry.

Thanks again John, nice job, great attitude, deserves more than a point. (That would be a hint readers - reward an over and above effort with a record?)

Now back to lurking.

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#57
In reply to #53

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 7:34 AM

Been trying to get hold of Fabricator - yet to respond. Thanks for this latest studied advice. Need someone out there (any readers please) with Modelling Program " Solid Works or Inventor - etc)

John is great - you're right - need to grab his ears and kiss him right on the forehead!!

Ben

Register to Reply
2
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#63
In reply to #53

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 9:36 AM

Hmmm... "Down" certainly looks a bit iffy - I'll see about trying it with the angle shifted if I get a chance.

Meanwhile I've done this variant of the slotted link, which I think gets around most objections (???) - need to re-arrange things a bit - it needs a longer linear slide (the damn' thing fell off the bearing block 1st time!). It is "do-able" as an open hinge (with the bracketry on the slide moved out to the sides), so it could still cope with feeding the foil from the back.

Anyway ...

And (in case it's not obvious to everyone) here's what's going on behind the bracketry:

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#68
In reply to #63

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 11:08 AM

Hi J

What can I add to assist a couple of great Pilots - can only sit back and watch this space - in both your eminently capable hands

My Fabricator - seeing him tomorrow can get a Inventor Gravity test as K has suggested - If you have any figures to pass to him - kindly let me know

Yours

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#74
In reply to #63

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/02/2009 12:22 AM

It definitely solves the down problem (if one exists in the other approach). I'd move the link pin position so the link is vertical when lid is full up. More reliable 'unlocking' of the fairly straight lid arms and links, when up.

Frame stroke is longer but looks solvable in the height available (even if the damn' thing fell off the bearing block 1st time! - don't you hate that )

Did Ben send you the SW animation of your pin version?

Watching that I thought about the clamping the foil aspect and insert/foam issues. In the foaming cycle, if the foaming gets ahead of schedule, the lid (held up by rising inserts) may never reach the front clamps.

In the link idea - the link goes into compression - which means good clamp force. But if the inserts are elevated by foam the final lid movement is an arc.

So if foaming is never lifting inserts, I think makes the link the best design/development direction.

The links will have to be a bit tricker than a bit of flat bar, but I think simpler than messing with my original frame; e.g.

If the foam is likely to be lifting inserts then my original idea plus a locking device of lid arms to frame - (in the stop area) is the best idea for development, as you can lock it up 2" out and it pulls down parallel.

Or the development direction comes down to how confident in the foam/insert process and The Cats Q1 "how parallel"

But basically I think the link wins and if the process / timing/ whatever, all turns out to not as thought, we reassess.

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5322
Good Answers: 290
#65
In reply to #53

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 10:37 AM

"Down" (view 3) may have a bigger frame weight/hesitation issue

Perhaps a CAM would be a better idea. This is a "phun" simulation:-

The phun source file (.phz) is only 25K if anyone wants to send me a private message with their EM-address. I've also got a .wmv (windows media file), which I can try to send, but, it's about 1½ Megs.

__________________
We are alone in the universe, or, we are not. Either way it's incredible... Adapted from R. Buckminster Fuller/Arthur C. Clarke
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#67
In reply to #65

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 10:56 AM

Hi Randall

Thanks for the contribution. Very appreciated. John G is retesting the "Down" calcs as we speak. Gestating.

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Transcendia
Posts: 2963
Good Answers: 93
#69
In reply to #65

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 12:57 PM

I had turned to the cam idea for simplicity thinking of drive rods and printing presses.

My mind saw the teardrop cam release at the platen hinge.

In other words as the top jaw comes down cam allows plate to slide back flat to plane.

I could be using the wrong words in this discussion, for I am not trained and am only working from experience with engines and what not.

Certainly without actually seeing the operation and the materials involved, I am not the one to decide what improvement to commit to.

The project for some reason has intrigued me.

Last night in dreamtime the problem sept into my thoughts to the point I wondered at how my jaws work, and if not the solution was there.

__________________
You don't get wise because you got old, you get old because you were wise.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#70
In reply to #69

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 1:30 PM

Thanks T

I share the intrigue - I share the sleepwalks - JohnDG is gestating on the proposal. It is great to hear that Heidleberg had the same dreams. I had to laugh - very funny!! Yep our teeth have to meet level on!

Can't wait to see what John comes up with -

Best wishes

Ben

.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#71
In reply to #70

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 3:46 PM

May have to wait a while - I'm tied up tonight and doubt whether I'll have time tomorrow. Sorry & all that - have to sort out Daughter & earn a crust in between doing CR4 stuff.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#72
In reply to #71

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 5:09 PM

Hey John - No sweat - whenever you can - talk soon - take it easy.

Yours

Ben

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#55
In reply to #49

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 7:18 AM

Hey John

Many thanks - also just received Kyzine's post - seems we need someone with Inventor or Solid Works to test work up a simulation with the parameters.

Anyone out there can assist ?

Be back later

You around Friday for a meet? I maybe heading that way to London for the weekend.

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#59
In reply to #55

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 7:37 AM

All tied up this week - service call-out Weds, project meeting Thurs, piled-up work (due to time lost Weds & Thurs) + Daughter stuff Fri.

Another time tho', for sure.

Cheers.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#39
In reply to #35

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 8:20 AM

Hi Kyzine

Simply have to say - I am lovin' this - seems we are close to resolving. Glad you are standing by -

Yours

Ben

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#38
In reply to #28

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 8:11 AM

Hey Snygolfgs

I Feel privileged to be in such good company. Thanks for the drawings - they were excellent... seems I have found a great community.

Guess Kyzine has a magic touch - I am following that concept - but truly grateful.

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
2
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 246
Good Answers: 6
#30

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 2:42 AM

Will this do it if the lid is well balanced initially?

__________________
Peter Jensen
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#40
In reply to #30

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 8:27 AM

HI - You know I had a similar thought about a week ago - No one told me why it wouldn't work. I guess the reason may be that if there is a slight discrepancy somewhere, the system cant take up the slack - i.e., the MDF will tilt. So the robust way is to get a true perpendicular approach for 25mm or so - to be sure ( as the Irish say).

Stay in touch and thank you.

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#34

Re: Mechanical Linkage

11/30/2009 4:27 AM

Hey Everyone - the help is humbling - feel like I need to pay my dues - here's a little something to tide you over - for you all who have helped so far - I am digesting this morning's brilliant posts -

and special thanks to Kyzine -

B

Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#48

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 1:10 AM

Hi Ben, I've been thinking on your whole process a bit further.

It seems to me that the foil roll should be fed through the hinge.

This means on end of process, the bot picks up the part and pulls new foil into place, then pauses whilst the lid lowers and guillotines off the part. (The front clamps discussed provide the gillo force.) This gives the bot 20 seconds to dump the part and retool for injection– heaps of time. And it's a nice straight program move.

It also gets the roll out of bot swing danger, in terms of roll change over.

In the change roll operation you really should have two spindle stations and a tape (or weld station) so you can fix the lead of new roll to tail of old.

Otherwise you have to shut down totally and change all rolls before the short one runs out. You will probably need a tension control and/or inertial compensation for full roll and near exhausted diameters/masses.

Or what I'm saying is the roll mounted on the box may be 'neat' but it's not real production conditions practical.

Side to side feed puts folk in bot swing – and you can never trust a bot. Also the feed set up you will end up needing (in my opinion) will interfere with the pallet space of the adjacent machine.

That's the thoughts for the day – I'll go back to lurking.

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#50
In reply to #48

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 3:49 AM

Thanks for the great thoughts - answers in the text

Hi Ben, I've been thinking on your whole process a bit further.

It seems to me that the foil roll should be fed through the hinge.

This means on end of process, the bot picks up the part and pulls new foil into place, then pauses whilst the lid lowers and guillotines off the part.

Great thought thanks

(The front clamps discussed provide the gillo force.) This gives the bot 20 seconds to dump the part and retool for injection– heaps of time. And it's a nice straight program move.

Excellent

It also gets the roll out of bot swing danger, in terms of roll change over.

Agreed

In the change roll operation you really should have two spindle stations and a tape (or weld station) so you can fix the lead of new roll to tail of old.

Great thought

Otherwise you have to shut down totally and change all rolls before the short one runs out. You will probably need a tension control and/or inertial compensation for full roll and near exhausted diameters/masses.

Agreed

Or what I'm saying is the roll mounted on the box may be 'neat' but it's not real production conditions practical.

Accepted

Side to side feed puts folk in bot swing – and you can never trust a bot. Also the feed set up you will end up needing (in my opinion) will interfere with the pallet space of the adjacent machine.

Agreed

That's the thoughts for the day – I'll go back to lurking.

I am on the phone to the fabricator and I'll report back

Many many thanks.....

Ben

BTW are you ever in UK ?

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#54
In reply to #50

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 7:10 AM

I was there originally, then was there again later, and again a bit later, and I think a few other times, if you count not-Northern Ireland, (love nNI/people/humor) but not recently, nor do I sense an upcoming Europe urge. Russia maybe, but right now it's all about China and Asia in general. Just out of curiosity you use "BTW" a lot - sometimes I wonder if what I think it means is what you mean. Care to define?

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#56
In reply to #54

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 7:28 AM

BTW (By the Way) (Ha) - You in Thailand much? I love the East - I was there August 2008 - May 2009. ..... been going for 25 years - yep its all about Asia now and guan xi.

B

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#60
In reply to #56

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 8:12 AM

Love Thai's, not so keen on Bangkok (or sexploitation) (by westerners in particular). I also love Japan. I.e. Asia tends to be 'interesting' if you forget where you are.

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#61
In reply to #60

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 8:37 AM

Yep - Love Thais too - be going on and off 25 yrs - never done Japan and regret that ... but as I get on I love London best of all - the least provincial city in the world - ..like the irreverence - metaphoric middle finger - art edge - yada, yada..

Just need to find someone over today to do a solid model gravity simulation on your proposition - but guess it would be harder in Thailand

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a new member!

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA/Europe
Posts: 4547
Good Answers: 68
#52
In reply to #48

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/01/2009 4:46 AM

Hi Kyzine,

Congrats on a really well thought out answer and reply post!

This is definitely worth a GA. I am starting the ball rolling................

GA to you Sir!

__________________
Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=|O|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#77
In reply to #48

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/04/2009 6:15 AM

When I first looked at the OP, I was thinking one-man garage operation; your comments (and other communications) poked a few of my leetle grey cells into action. I now realize that this is to be a full-blown production machine, which means a lot of attention must be paid to Machinery Safety - this means risk assessment, identifying hazards, establishing Safety Categories, Safety Integrity Levels or Performance Levels etc. etc.

In the next few days (7th/8th December), there is to be a meeting of the Machinery Directive Working Group to decide whether or not to allow a further 3-year grace period before the transition from EN954-1 to EN ISO 13849-1 or EN/IEC 62061 (which were supposed to have been used from 2006, but no-one was ready, so 3 years were originally allowed for everyone to get up to speed).

We (the company I contract to mostly and I) have decided to design to EN ISO 13849-1, so we've splashed out on a pile of new standards.

This is really just a reminder (plus a bit of rambling) that whatever the lid mechanism turns out to be, it's going to have to be idiot-proof SAFE! (and certifiably so).

I can already see the wincing looks of our conformance consultants' faces at the mention of a 200lb hinged lid with a blade on the edge!

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#78
In reply to #77

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/04/2009 6:40 AM

Hi John,

Health and Safety

We have made a slot in the table to take a blade. The slot is see through - which allows us to consider different methods of cutting.

The prototype SVT V1 is not for resale but to test conflicts and PoP and issues in real life context. Even at this stage we are very alive to the safety regs. I.e., Guarding on the blade also using a rodless cylinder under the slot with a blade showing through but concealed in a dog house whilst idle at one end of the slot. The other which K mentioned is the blade still on the lid but chomps when aided by the downward pull of cylinders. Blade means conventional blade with rodless cylinder - but if using guillotine type action - when attached to the lid this is a blunter shearing action.

However the cutting issue has not been resolved yet but hope there's enough room to comply with H&S.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#79
In reply to #78

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/04/2009 7:10 AM

It's not just the blade that's worrying me - the 200lb of lid coming down (or worse - being pulled down by hydraulics) is pretty bad on it's own. I think there'll have to be some interlocked guarding so that either 1) the guard can only be removed with the lid closed (not much good for maintenance) or 2) when the guard is removed, the lid is somehow physically locked in position (pretty sure you wouldn't get away with just the cylinder(s) to hold it up).

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#80
In reply to #79

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/04/2009 7:39 AM

Hi John

Point taken. Thank you.

The whole system will of course be within closed protected area - as convention.

BTW could we not use ball screws to be safer ?

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#81
In reply to #80

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/04/2009 7:47 AM

Ball screws & brake motors (or worm drives) sounds like a good scheme - IMHO it's a lot easier to set up an electrical/electronic Safety system than mixing with fluids.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#82
In reply to #81

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/04/2009 8:18 AM

AS the say we gotta do what we gotta do....BTW dont like mixing fluid especially PU and Oil...I agree

Thanks John

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#84
In reply to #78

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 6:10 AM

SVT stands for?

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#86
In reply to #84

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 6:19 AM

Hi John

G'day

Just sent Kyzine and you a post on thread

BTW - By the way

SVT - Static Vacuum Table ( its a Bennyism)

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9687
Good Answers: 467
#87
In reply to #86

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 6:23 AM

Ta

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a new member!

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA/Europe
Posts: 4547
Good Answers: 68
#104
In reply to #78

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/06/2009 5:47 AM

Hi ben,

I mentioned the safe working in one of my first posts I think.

Is it a plastic bag making machine? There was two of those factories where I worked once for a short time as I started work. I believe they had a pressure switch at the back and one on the handle used to close the 'lid'.

Take care and good luck.

__________________
Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=|O|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#83
In reply to #77

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/04/2009 11:26 PM

Hi John, Ben;

"Blade on the lid" is too hard mechanically to hold a 'zero' shearing tolerance required for the material/sheet thickness, given; lid length, hot/cold, bearing tolerances, rod flex, drive forces, and so on, through to 'squareness'. It would either 'not shear' the material or 'shear itself'.

At the appropriate time (i.e. solve the 'linkage', then...) I intended to guide Ben, toward a traveling wheel gillo (as in sheet fed folding machines), activation conditionally interfaced with the front clamp system.

Equally; "solve linkage forces" outcome should indicate 'ball screw' or pneumatic for lift. Two screws in parallel is fraught, but that set of decisions aside, the prime question seems; How to make it "not fall" due to power or air loss?

If pneumatic, the cylinders should have pilot operated non returns direct to port mounted anyway. "Fast ball screw drives" do not usually have worms (so can go backwards) but can have solenoid breaks/locks.

But in either system, addressing the lid fall directly protects from both drive and linkage failure.

Lids should/must have props. "Feeding through the hinge" means these props can travel and have remotely disengage-able pins, in their tracks, locking the lid 'normally up' (fail safe).

This is also useful if a 'bot' or 'close' lid sequencing error occurs. I.e. the pins are default engaged whist the bot is in the lid shadow and only retracted under a 'triple' condition of 'bot clear' and 'close signal' and 'manual permission'.

This and a whole range of other process controls, (at the appropriate time), must be addressed.

Other examples are; how do you swap the pallets, from inside the laser fence to outside - without creating an additional 'unexpected movement' hazard?

How do you insure roll to roll joining is only in adequate dwell, but if 'longer' - that the bot can't just whisk material through folks hands?

How to 'detect' and 'step over' a joint in the sheet?

It sounds like a long list of upcoming problems? (ay Ben?)

But each is easily intergrated; given an 'end system' design approach.

I knew/could see, all above - before I put my hand up.

But guys; this will be a long and bumpy road, without some basic Q&A order in the development process.

(Ben, leave voting on my posts in this thread to independent minds - please - it's better value input)

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#85
In reply to #83

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 6:15 AM

Dear Kyzine

Getting your " brilliant expert analysis" on CR4 this morning was gratification on a stick –

"The success of your project is indexed by the quality of the judge's intellect."
(Oscar W).... "K – You're the Judge" Thanks.

Kyzine's "Gillo on Lid" Observation

I accept that readily – the Gillo idea always worried me.

Would you give the Robot a Stanley Knife to run through the 6mm Slot whilst we get to appropriate time? ( It was suggested by a Robotics Engineer– or would we better off selling that idea to Tarantino ?) Genuine question

Q. With respect to the "appropriate time" – Can you kindly suggest the most basic program for me and John to accomplish PoP prior to appropriate time?

I am personally happy with an "engineer only" present and semi automatic/manual management of the Module to be safe til we get to the appropriate time..

I.e., I am guessing you will say " Ben this is an oxymoron - cant be safe whilst we are standing in the cell shoulder to shoulder with a bot standing by." What do you think?

To my mind - I would use the bot for the pouring of the PU and manually load the MDF and operate the machine - Lid/ Heaters/Vacuum/Air Eject- manually – n'est pas ??

It sounds like a long list of upcoming problems? (ay Ben?) by K

The current phase is a skunking phase - just to get to a working demonstrator. IN production one module will cycle 10 x times an hour - as above I am content with 4 and hour. Phase two comes after conflicts are understood, then we can finesse

This will not be a fully blown production machine by any means but having spent a year taking advice from far and wide – it seemed the great obstacle is finding a machine builder who was able to grasp the all the ramifications of the process and know them like I do. So I stopped trying. I decided to do it myself with a more hands on approach.... build it "one bight at a time"

So Far - that principle is working – it is faster and so far producing eminently better solutions and on schedule....

The other maxim I like is " you're never prepared for life unless you're prepared for an ambush" Hmmm

Again - thanks beyond thanks from me to Kyzine and John

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#88
In reply to #85

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 7:00 AM

I'm guessing he may mean something more like a pizza cutter, than a stanley knife.

Link

There are still exceptions to safety regs [here at least] for R/D & maintenance. All the stuff about building in mechanical lock outs, sounds spot on...

I didn't quite catch why you need the top plate of the press to move completely out of the way?

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#89
In reply to #88

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 7:22 AM

Hi Garthh

Ultrasonic Knife

Thanks for the tip. (Link)

Seems such a good idea - I'm looking for a catch. Sent a query to the UK agent.

Everyone should have one of these !

Any experience yourself on this technology? Like how fast on rigid 0.5mm PVC?

and of course - How much do they cost?

The plate is both a Clamp ( as in RIM tech) but pressures are only 30lb sq inch and also is a heater bank as in Vac Forming.

Picture as to "why the lift question" - hope this explains

Thanks for the help - great!!

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5804
Good Answers: 114
#90
In reply to #89

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 8:10 AM

I used to work in a bakery, where we made 7million tortillas per day.

flour tortillas were made on a flying press that is 30"x40" & cycled 25 times per minute

the upper platen, cartridge heaters & frame work weighed about 600 pounds.

the entire assembly [1500 pounds] was rolling back & forth 30" on steel rails

500 degrees of heat was provided by by cartridge heaters embedded in both platens

had a bullet proof method of guiding & releasing the upper assembly so it would float when the actual pressing was occuring...

you don't need the flying part or the extreme speed of that system.

the distance between the platens was precisely controlled. the whole thing only opened up 1.5"[in operation], but was capable of 6"

we were right up against the limits of both the dough & speed of the hydraulics...

I'll share some of their solutions if applicable

it sound like your process time [cure] is the limiting factor & that the transisions can be reduced to a minor factor in comparison.

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#94
In reply to #90

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 9:34 AM

Hey Garthh

Thanks for the second post too - BTW I lived on Ocean Ave, SM Cal for 5 years - love US of..

I'll share some of their solutions if applicable

Many thanks and as Tesco say - "every little helps" - appreciated.

it sound like your process time [cure] is the limiting factor & that the transisions can be reduced to a minor factor in comparison.

http://www.4shared.com/file/91980190/2fbd599d/Lab_Shots_RAFT.html

The link puts together real pictures in the lab - and each slide provided the actions that are being combined into a one stop module as attached showing three modules called SVT's and Robot

Hope that makes sense and really appreciate any tips/ ideas - grateful

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#91
In reply to #85

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 8:13 AM

Ben Ben Ben,

"Would you give the Robot a Stanley Knife to run through the 6mm Slot whilst we get to appropriate time? ( It was suggested by a Robotics Engineer– or would we better off selling that idea to Tarantino ?) Genuine question"

Write out your Bot sequencing and roles - then ask yourself - "do I have a two handed Bot?" But the action of cutter (you should be busy researching) is similar in principle, but uses two discs.

"skunking phase" - meaning Skunk Works? Good grief.......it's become a PR eructation? Poor Irving C.

"PoP" What?

"n'est pas ??"

Now were doing Genre Post-Hardcore?

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#75

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/03/2009 8:57 PM

its correct but You modified the design because flame length is high.

one fixed another moved is easily hinged on a work piece.

Regards,

Surya

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#76
In reply to #75

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/04/2009 1:22 AM

Surya Hi

Sawasdee

Sorry - I don't understand your observation

Best wishes

Ben

Ben

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#92

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 8:49 AM

Ben you are looking for the traveling version of this two disc shear.

WoodwardFab - Throatless Rotary Shear

You are not looking for this "bench model"

The traveling one is used on sheet metal forming/folding machinery producing box, channel, gutters and similar out of cropped to length roll stock. I don't have my catalogs with me, so can't just look it up.

Maybe some one on CR4 will pitch in?

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#93
In reply to #92

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 9:12 AM

Hi Buddy Kyzine

Thanks for that but CR4 just did help in the name of Garthh - and seems so good I'll take two - as they say. Look at Link on his #88 comment Robot using ultrasonic knife-

Have already sent out enq. to the supplier.

Also - lovely email from Garthh #99 - I can picture that wild scene - but he makes very interesting comments... I have always felt the most unsung imaginative engineering is in the baking and cake making industries.

Hey K the skunking - yes - I tell you - I had some decisions to make regaring this project.

I looked at all aspects - making up a Proof of Principle SVT - half scale then mving to a pre-prototype as we are now. ..I combined these two and ended up skunking on the full sized model - and as it is being built!! Wahey!! try that for size...!

But kindly ley me have your project management view on say up to " approriate time "

Thanks for your great help

Ben

PS I'm going shopping for 2 hours - and that is not OT - engineers have to eat!!

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#95
In reply to #93

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 10:05 AM

Has it occurred to you I posted that because I saw all that?

"Wahey!! Engineers do frigging diligence!!!!

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#96
In reply to #95

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 4:05 PM

K

Donny fully understand your response - so maybe I've sent a mixed message. Sorry.

Your comment to John suggested we leave certain items to the "appropriate time." and we focus on the link mechanism. Great advice.

Thanks

Best wishes

Ben

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: S of LCD
Posts: 654
Good Answers: 30
#101
In reply to #96

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 9:07 PM

Ben "engineers do diligence"

This means; Idea A is explored to sufficient extent to identify functional applicability and system complexity.

With that 'fuller idea' of what is required, an engineer then steps back and interrogates the 'decision chain'. E.g. says to themselves; Ok, I've built all this on idea "A" for reason "X". Is "A/X" actually practically valid? Is "A/X" creating a chain of 'patches on patches'? Is there a B?

For example; say "blade on lid" is the "X" for idea "A" - 'hinged lid'.

Interrogation process has revealed "X" is not practical.

But 'hinged' is behind the lift link complexity - and 'fall into bot space' - and OH&S 'added concerns' (now revealed). Is curing all these cascading symptoms creating a monster - or in fact - still the simplest way?

The "appropriate time" is when you show a willingness to be diligent.

To do the process flow as repeatedly urged.

I can not believe you survived an education in engineering with out some form of process mapping tool. Critical Path? Circuit Logic? Some "this action requires this and this in place, which requires that and that and that" template. Dig it out - do the diligence.

Find out what actions and method mix is required, both principally and for ancillary systems. Include impacts like "1 heater element has blown" and (feed, roll change, cut off, product exit, OH&S, maintenance ,,,), get it all in order, get the control and spacial interrelations clear, then get it firmly in front of mind.

Was that full picture clear, you would by now be re-reading ALL the posts looking for "lid approach B" - that inherently 'engineers out' the list of patches "A/X" has revealed - not just picking out what might 'patch up' a new "A" or "X" unconsidered, which two seconds of 'chart consulting' would have revealed requires yet another station and attendant subsystem.

Many have made comments and suggestions based on 'KISS' i.e. methods that do not 'normally' turn into a cascading patch on patch outcomes. Do the diligence and two will leap out of the screen.

__________________
“Don’t worry, they usually don’t swim backwards.” Steve Irwin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belsize London
Posts: 46
#102
In reply to #101

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/05/2009 10:16 PM

Hey Kyzine

You OK?

Ben

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a new member!

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA/Europe
Posts: 4547
Good Answers: 68
#107
In reply to #101

Re: Mechanical Linkage

12/06/2009 6:12 AM

Hi Kyzine,

I understand and this is kind of the way I used to work.

It is not so easy and there a whole lot more 'ifs and or's' when designing a lid combining a cutter and leaving room for the plastic feed, and a built in Safety Mechanism, on a machine that also gives its own constraints with sizes and functionality. But with so many brains working on it I think you can more or less say we have this one to bed now?

Very interest thread this, you can almost hear the 'Engineers cogs' going round as they think at a million miles (1.6 Million Killometres) an hour!

Take care and good luck.

__________________
Take it easy, bb. >"HEAR & you FORGET<>SEE & you REMEMBER<>DO & you UNDERSTAND"<=$=|O|=$=>"Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes"<>[Ralph Waldo Emerson]
Register to Reply
Register to Reply Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (3); babybear (11); benbendien (44); cwarner7_11 (1); Del the cat (3); Garthh (3); JohnDG (14); Kyzine (19); pantaz (2); Pj3ns3n (1); PWSlack (1); rakesh2801 (1); Randall (1); snygolfgs (7); Transcendian (2); welderman (2)

Previous in Forum: Quench Press force in pounds   Next in Forum: pressure loss because of combining and dividing of flow through Tee & Y joints
You might be interested in: Hydraulic Cylinders, Air Cylinders, Rodless Cylinders

Advertisement