Rust Marks Coming Through Plaster

How about a dob of Galvafroid cold-galvanising fluid (usual disclaimer) onto the affected areas before the paint goes on?

If you were in America I would suggest a product called Kilz, or Naval Jelly. I think I might have seen the Naval Jelly while I was there, check the big DIY shops. Any rustoleum spray paint product should work too.

Even if you use gloss, it could develop small imperfections that allow the rust to bleed through again so using a product that eliminates the rust is the best way to go. If you are near an U.S. Air Force base, you might have friends that can get you some Kilz or Naval Jelly.

Kilz

Hammerite (UK)

Naval Jelly Wiki

Drew

GA Drew, got it all covered, all countries. Phosphoric + detergent under many names. aka Deoxidine the panel beaters best friend. Top Job.

Prob is I have negative time to do the decorating. Mrs Cat wants a quick make over job (hmmm p'raps I should re-phrase that) but on the other hand she's nit picking over the finish.
I'd rather not skimp on the basic fabric as it just stores up trouble for the future.
I couldn't actually see the metal, but I could see the bleeding shape of it.

Hey ho, I've been overtaken by the time scale and just cut it back and slapped some plaster over it for now. Maybe it will be ok now that it's been dry for a year?...oh yeah, now we all know that won't be true don't we.

Anyhow if you guys had replied this morning, I might have had a chance to do something...I'm going to tell Mrs Cat it's all your fault....
Must stop chatting and get back to scaping artex of the wall.

Del

Fresh drywall mud is highly alkaline and corrosive. That is probably what is causing the rust, which bleeds through while any moisture still remains.

The best solution I've used is to apply a coat of Kilz prior to painting (another poster mentioned this product). I don't know if Kilz is available in the U.K., but something equivalent surely is. You may wish to contact a local paint outlet to see what they recommend, and possibly a local contractor or two, as well, to see how they deal with this relatively common problem.

relatively common problem.
Yeah, why do they sell this Cr4p? They sell a stainless steel version for exterior use...dunno why they sell the galvanised, I mean it's not going to get the coating scratched in transport or in the store or in the back of the van or by the plastering float now is it?
Del

They sell crap because people are willing to buy crap, and they make it as crappy as consumers will tolerate with as high a profit margin for themselves as the market will bear - and then some.

On the flip side, those willing to pay more for high quality goods pay too much; again, because consumers will not demand quality goods at reasonable prices.

The problem is not so much with the manufacturers as it is with the consumers willing to tolerate it. Until that changes, King Krap reigns supreme.

Hi Europium,

First, there is no one customer who ask for high quality product. The customer doesn't know what's high or low quality. For the manufacturers, low quality doesn't exist, they just make products at the lower raw material costs. Customers will recognize when they compare two or more products but this never happens. Only professional painters compare to see performance and application properties, and still nort everyone does it.

Second, No one customer pay high or low price for a product. They pay what is the price, point. Negotiation starts at high quantity level, and again with professional painters.

Third, It is a big problem with every manufacturer, because they are the makers of good or bad products, and also they are the price taggers for only one purpose, profits.

It can be changed but governments never or in very rare occasion they force manufacturers to make what supposed to be done. For example: in retail we still sell solvent born paint, and customers wait for a day that solvent, at least 50% of the liquid applied evaporates. Also, in the store you have 100, 500, sometimes thousands of gallon of flammable paints. The government must force to make waterbourne paints, coatings, and related products and not let solvents enter in any manufacture.

I am in Canada, and during the last 4 years our government did not regulated on VOC and when they propose something, it's ridiculously childish. It's the same with pollution. We want that China. India, Brazil, and other countries become clean and non polluting but we did that for a century. Remember "Love Canal", "Bhopal". Samething with child-labour. We exploited people during centuries with slaves and other working humen and animals but we don't want to let other nations do the same.

Don't ask quality goods for reasonable price, let manufacturers offering the best product for the optimum solution to a problem. With respect, have a nice day, Gil.

Put a corner protector on and paint it. I sometimes use the clear type and paint the underside before mounting to the wall an it appears to be the wall color.

Hello again Europium,

No correction, just want to tell you that alcalinity doesn't create rust, acids do. Now, if it's bleeding through, it could be other than rust or was lots of rust already there. Aha, most of the applicators don't prepair surfaces to put something on, it's not their job. You know, union. Ask the original worker what was the reality? Ole for the answer, Gil.

Kilz is nothing more than Alcohol based primer.. I'm sure all countrys have their own brand.. Works great out a spray can for small areas, and will NOT bleed through..

This, on a very small scale reminds me of my major headache job, when I was a painter.

This grocery store hired me to paint their ceiling, and it looked like a breeze, just bought a new grayco airless, and I was thinking of all the profit I was going to make..

Ha ha wrong,

I failed to check the substrate, much to my chagrin, after covering all the aisles, with plastic, and spraying about 50 gallons of white latex paint, as it dryed, it turned back the dingy brown it was before any paint was applied.. :o(

This is when I learned about Alcohol based primer.

This ceiling was sand texture, that was blown on, with the color already in it.

No matter how many gallons of paint was applied, it just soaked right in, just like trying to paint a sandy beach,, impossible.

We ended up spraying like 150 gallons of alcohol based primer, to quick dry seal the sand texture, then the latex paint had something to adhere to.. Very expensive lesson to learn..

Donald

"We ended up spraying like 150 gallons of alcohol based primer ..."

Just how high did you get on this stuff? I bet Timothy Leary was paisley with envy...

Hi Campbell Lighting,

First, as a correction, Kilz is a Shellac dissilved in alcohol. The resin, Shellac does the job after the alcohol evaporates. Another Kilz, latex based, the special Acrylic resin(s) and Zinc oxide does the work of stopping rust, moulds, and other discolouring or colouring chemicals to pass through the paint film.

In any cases I prefer latex type paint because it pollutes less, no danger of fire, and non breathing toxic solvents, plus easier and confortable to apply. After the paint job is over, please, don't leach your fingers, Gil.

Del,

I once had rewire a building after a fire and the painters were insurance work specialists. They used to cover anything they didn't want coming through the paint with a couple of coats of silver frost. I've tried it a few times and it seems to work ok. To prevent further decay of the metal, a bit of Penetrol or similar thinned 50 / 50 with turps should seal the offending bits then cover it with the silverfrost before priming, undercoating and painting.

Rust not from RS components can be sprayed on to already rusty metal and seals it.

Thanks for all the info guys.
I've gone over it with a spray on stain block.

There is some real crap out there, the previous water based stain block I bough did SFA. (I still have a can full, so if anyone wants some stain block that doesn't work, give me a call....I s'pose the 'water based' should have rung the alarm bells?)

I saw som 'Quick drying' gloss too, but in the small print it said allow 24hours to dry, what part of 'quick' don't they understand.

I'd better crack on with it...
I have beer if anyone wants to help!
Del

"...what part of 'quick' don't they understand."

I dunno. Maybe they were geologists in a previous life. Twenty-four hours is pretty quick when compared with, say, the Mesozoic Era.

"I have beer if anyone wants to help!"

I have beer if anyone wants to watch!

I've used the stain block spray from Screw-fix, it took a couple of days for the stain to re-appear. A coat of vinyl matt fixed the problem for me.

After the water source causing the stain was removed, the old timers used to use a coating of shellac to prevent rust and stains from appearing through the finish paint.

I have used the before mentioned product called Kilz with great success. Not that I am that young, it just seemed easier to use.

Hi Del the cat,

Buy paint, a primer, and ask seller to supply Material Safety Data Sheet or MSDS on the primer that must contain Zinc Oxide to eliminate rust, mould, and other spoiling reappearances. Apply on well sanded surface two coats with two hours of drying time between coats. This is one way to obtain a surface free of any spoiling effects. There are other solutions but this is the simplest. Good decoration time, Gil.

It isn't the galv. corner bead that rusted thru, it was the non-galv. lath that when it got wet it rusted and then bled thru. All trim pieces used for plastering are galv, because some part of them will be exposed to the elements after the plastering job is done, The corner bead is attached over the lath that is installed to the corner of the wall.

Since you have fixed the roof, the water leak has been solved for now and no more bleed thru. So unless you have another source of water from the inside face of the plaster wall or from the other side of the wall, the metal, plaster has dried out and you shouldn't get any more bleed thru.

Now if you turn the room into a bath, you can get bleed thru anywhere in the whole wall surface in time from the high humidty of the air going thru the plaster and getting the lath moist, rusting, and then bleeding thru. Make sure you seal the plaster with a water proofing sealer before painting.

As for the mice problem, even if it was caulked the first time during installation the mice saw a way to get under the sill by removing the softess material to gain access. Re-caulking won't solve the problem unless you pack the area under the sill with stainless steel wool and then caulk over it to seal the weather out. Or better yet use a damp packing grout pushed under the sill and then caulk.

Re mice...I cemented it inside and out, that'll keep the furry little ba$tard$ out.
Del

Hello and welcome to CR4!

I like your idea of the steel wool! Mind you, the mice and rats I have in mind are so 'hard' they would make the nests in it, and feed it to their kids!

Take care.

Del,

You'll be happy to learn that corner protector is made in plastic also. Wish I had known about that when I did some bathroom remodeling back in the day. Neil Young's lyrics from one of his hit songs must have come to him while he was occupied in his bathroom study one day (rust never sleeps). I had re-plastered, sanded and used Kilz to hide the spots several times but it didn't seem to last for more than a couple of years, if that. This was probably due to the high humidity in the bathroom. I finally took the time to eliminate the problem and wound up replacing the rusted corner protector with the plastic version. End of problem.

Del,

The plastic stuff is avaialable in the UK as well. Any good Tiling store should have it.

Can be used as edging for mirrors as well as for corners.

Works and the material is usually shaped to accept tiles.

If you are not using tiles cut the surplus part off.

Go

Sleepy

Sorry for not signing in but the site will not accept my log in!!

My well worn signature is apperently too long today - have you guys changes the window size?

If you can't by KILZ primer just coat with Shellac and then paint

Shellac. several coats

There a lot of things you can do but most include re-doing ever-so-often.

The right answer is to cut-out the materials that were exposed to moisture and replace them or replace with blue or green wallboard and add a plastic edge bead too.

Hi Del,

I had this problem even on new homes.

Use Egg-Shell oil based paint on all likely areas a good thick coat fanned out to nothing away from the corner, then you will not see a distinctive line after you re-paint with your usual emulsion. Let the eggs shell dry for about three days, as even if it is in the slightest damp or sticky, the emulsion will not adhere to it.

Use the same trick with tobacco stained walls or ceilings. I first did it as a trial and error thing when a whole room painted white has tobacco stains bleeding through. And it worked. The Customer was a full time Cigar smoker!

Good luck and happy Xmas.

Hello BabyBear,

We don't want to use any paint containing solvent. We want to use waterbourne paint because water evaporates, goes in the sky, if I can explane that way, and return as rain which can be collected and reuse to make another batch of waterbourne paint. Do you catch it? Come on, be nice and protect yourself, Gil.

When I was a teenager I volunteered to paint our church's parsonage. Being a teenager, I didn't know Jacques Schitt about paint, naturally, thought I knew it all, naturally, and bought the cheapest crap I could find with my very limited funds. I was sure I had purchased plenty of paint to do the job, but you know how it is with crappy paint. You might as well be painting with skim milk.

About three-quarters of the way through I discovered that I didn't have enough paint to complete even the first coat. Worse, I no money to buy more. So, to save face - and to get the job done and get the hell out of what I could sense somehow was going to be a bloody debacle - I watered-down what paint I had left whilst no one - save God Himself - was looking. Hopefully no one would notice. My deed caught up with me soon enough. Bad Karma.

About mid-week a summer storm blew through town and washed away much of the crappy paint - particularly the part I had crappified even further - with the result that the parsonage now looked worse than ever. "Totally Ghetto," as my kids would say.

That Sunday the pastor glowered at me all through the sermon, which I'm quite sure I inspired and during which he vacillated between "going the extra mile" and "brotherly love." I figured the first part was aimed at me for not having done so, presumably, and the second part aimed mostly at himself as an exhortation to himself to not stake me alive over fire ant nest, not feed me to his gigantic mastiffs, which hated my guts, and to not throw me out the church belfry with piano wire around my neck, bungee-style.

After the service he kindly ordered me to take a seat in a nearby pew whilst he took up his usual station by the door and shook everybody's hand as they exited. On occasion he would glance my way to make sure I'd stayed put. At these moments his face instantaneously transmogrified from that of a pleasant, God-fearing country preacher to one of The Grim Reaper, Incarnate - only worse (in retrospect, I'm sure he was related to the Devil. Maybe a cousin or something. No mere Human could make a face do things like his did).

Finally, when the last parishioner was gone, he quietly shut the door, stalked up to the pew and, towering over me, shook a gnarled, bony, accusing finger at me and bellowed,

"YOU THINNER!!! RE-PAINT AND THIN NO MORE!!!"

Hi europium,

I like your story and the whole of post 34.

We all have to learn or should learn from our mistakes, right?

I did much the same thing accept I did not spray, I always brushed. I did not try to make money quickly, but, for a while times were hard and I had to go to a new Town (to me anyway), and the company I was going to do this one job for bought the paint. And though it looked the same colour it too, as you say was like thin milk, when I wanted a two coat job using 'thin cheese'? It was the first and last time I used this paint "Johnston's" it was called. It was on a new building and as Gil said just like painting sand, they way it was sucked in. It took two weeks to do and was 'grinning' all over the place. (Grinning: Showing the underneath coat and some wall colour).

They had to get more decent paint, which not only covered but sealed and it did the job in one coated, as the initial colour was almost there, the final colour with good paint needed just the one coated. I was just paid to paint, and the arse of an Architect had got a 'deal' on this paint and the Factory Rep' who sold it to him asked just a an eighth of the average cost of good stuff. I stayed an extra week to pretty this appalling job up with decent paint. Made no difference to me, but as a professional Decorator I could not have that known as a job I had done, and fortunately the bloke who owned this new place wanted it finished in bright white, not in what looked like a grey colour from the sh¿tty first coats.

I always got my paint from a professional supplier, and could rely on it. But the rest of my Friends always thought I was OTT about this and, would get a 'bargain two for one' deal from the local market, which did not look too bad when it was done. But it absorbed the dirt like a sponge and they had to repaint it at least once a year, where I would paint, knowing it would be fine for 5 years or more. Especially in those hard to reach places where a scaffold has to be cobbled together to reach just the highest last couple of feet!

Good luck, and happy holidays!

Great Story.

My first painting adventure came about cause I was digging a bomb shelter in our garden lot, and the old man on the block said I was wasting my energy, and hired me to paint his rental house.

I was about 13 and I think he paid me 30 dollars to paint an entire two story house.

Even in 1966, that wasn't much money for the work.

When I was running out of paint, he said, "put some water in it."

I got stung on my eyelid by a wasp I disturbed in the eves at the top of a ladder.

Burned like hell.

The big hole I dug in the ground was disused and filled with water, and rats drowned in it.

One day I filled it with gasoline and threw in a match.

Hello Europium,

This was relaxing and enjoying to read and wish you will put more similar on the screen. Sometimes, your remarks are "bizzzarrr" to me but this was a honestly good verbal production. Felicitation and please, let us know your ability to make laugh people all around the world, including the Chineses and the Russians. The latest don't want to become democratic and the first play communist. Why? It more convenient to not change too much than lose control on people. Let the Chinese execute on the spot the drug importers and the revolutioners who wish to change the political tendancies. One day I asked Steven Harper (In my imagination) when we start to do business with the Dalai Lama or Tibet or with both at the same time. Steven, my unique and unsupportable premier, he never answered (I his non understanding, again my imagination) to this important business question. Finally, the correct decision was made this week, he told to the Chinese, we have raw materials for you. He finally and definitely corrected himself (Probably he made connection with my imaginatio) and accepted to not talk about human rights and other boolimy. Just for laugh, Gil.

Hi BabyBear,

Sorry about my stubbourness about the paint we must use. I work in the paint industry for over five decades in three continents. My stubbourn conclusion is that everyone who use solvent for paint making is a lost individual for the society. We buy a gallon of mineral spirits to make 2 gallons of semi-gloss alkyd paint, we apply it, and wait to let evaporate half of a gallon of the expensive mineral spirits. What was the use of this solvent. Convenience for viscosity and application properties. This solvent could be used for making more profitable object for the whole humanity. For example, to produce Vitamine C and help African countries. Just for saying. Now, I produce only waterbourne stains, sealers, and pigment dispersions for many customers who before used sealers with Xylene and Toluene, and produced head-aches, sometimes the applicator has difficulties to eat and sleep after the absorption of vapours. However, if you want to use solvent to make coatings or any other products, go and make them now because within a few years legislations will eliminate production of products with solvents. I know, all governments hesitate to act to not hurt the economy, but our economy is already down-stream because we wait and wait, without acting. My insurance is lower than solvent handling producers, and my people and equipment are safer, without flammables around.

I think you have to thing straight. First, if every human use 25 ml of solventbourne paint, pollution and danger will be bigger around makers, sellers, and users. Second, I don't make plastics like you try to tell people. Please, stay straight and talk only about paint coatings and related products. Forget plastics. Plastics are another subjects to talk. Nothing personal, just want to clarify what was said. Have a nice evening, Gil.

Hi GB,

Your stubbornness you talk of, and how careful you word your post, bothers me not. Just because you are a so called "expert", do not think your silliness is going to release you from some very honest talk from me. It sounds to me for a very good portion of your life in one way or another you have made a living from paint of all sorts so do not come the goody goody.

Facts: There will always be times when only an oil based paint will be the way to get a job done effectively. Whether that is in a kitchen, bathroom, or for those troublesome areas written about here, where a stain will not be covered by anything other than an oil or thinners based paint.

Try standing outside, truck, and car factories and showing your banners, if that is how you go about things, and they will tell you where to go. As far as I know there is no way to finish a car or truck body other than by using some kind of solvent. Get a life eh?

You take it as an accusation when I mentioned plastic. I never said you sold, dealt, or manufactured plastic.

Hi BabyBear,

You missread my notes. I am not an expert, I just want to succeed at what I do. I also recognize, after my travelling around the world that pollution is disastrous in many countries, including ours, and if we don't stop to do what we do actually, we will run in ecological, political, and religious troubles. Look Somalia. They are revolted against everyone because they have nothing. Who is the next.

Concerning the paint business? Within a decade or less, all government not allow manufacturers to use solvent or it will be not possible to buy. The Americans need to declare the volume of solvent buy during the year. What they do. A Canadian producer can sell the choosen formula containing solvent without telling one pound of solvent was bought but this will not stay for long.

I never protested against individual, company or government and never have in my hands no one banner like you accuse me.

The last, concerning plastics. I just want to tell you I am concerned with solvent and water-based paints. I don't want to be involved in the story of plastics because we have stories but not much realities. Just to mention, we have a hidden story about Bisphenol A and company. I would like to see the many supposed dead names.

Thanks to give a chance to correct myself and promise to be carefulabout my opinion about others opinion. I hope we solve the problem of discolouration. Wish you a good day, Gil.

Hello GB,

You found me on a bad week and I meant nothing personal.

I do not agree in any way with what you say, end of story.

Take care and good luck.

...with a flat roof

Can we look forward to a continuation of extension Dilema's in 2010 ? "Unplanned Lido - please help" by Del.

ps - I have several lengths of beading if you want them to repalce the 'old' ones.

I'd have just glossed over the whole issue (if I was sure water ingress had stopped). Worked great when I had a sight spillage* in the loft.

*serves me right I s'pose. Shouldn't have taken a crate of beer up there whilst doing the wiring. It got all fizzy as I hefted it up.

I have a spray can of BIN ZIZZER, a white shellac that is made for this job. Since you mentioned beer i will come over tomorrow and spray the patch for you and help you demolish the carton, or bath, or anything actually.

Sure...

History of Linseed Paint

Paint failure was unknown 100 years ago. Paint used before the 1920's contained primarily pigment, boiled linseed oil. Lead was later extensively used until it was found to be causing serious illnesses. Lead has been replaced since 1978 in the USA and since the 1940 in Europe. The paint did not build up on the outside of the wood surface and the linseed oil allowed any moisture in the wood to easily escape. This eliminated any chance of paint failure (paint flaking & peeling). Linseed paint preserved the wood very well. We can see proof of this in several hundred year old buildings in Europe and in the United States. Problems with paint were not common during the 1800's and early 1900's. The paint job lasted much longer than it does today.

http://www.solventfreepaint.com/info/history_linseed_paint.htm

Hi BWire,

Finally someone, and please, accept my deepest congratulations. The information about linseed oil paint is excellent.

People, turn questions about rust or other discolourations passing through painted plaster to dirty trousers, there is a margin to logic and crazyness.

I make and I am proud of it, and only recommand waterbourne paints based on extremely low VOC containt vehicles without coalescent solvents, and maintain VOC of all finished products under 50 g/litre.

I am working on natural binders as oils to make an environmentally friendly paint line for DIY users.

Thanks again, and wish you happy day, Gil.

Keep us informed, always interested in such things.

Once Del noted sucess for his query, it's gonna be a free for all, madcap antics are sure to follow

Welcome to CR4

Hi Gil, good to see you thanking BWire for input.

Good to see you appreciating (some) of the humor. (pity about the "we")

Ref a 'not too toxic' solvent for 'natural oils' and binders; what about alcohol - you know as in shellac? As in, the father technology of 'water based paints'.

Just have a think on that, no need to come on and do another 'product promotion'. Your goals are fairly clear and it's not a business forum.

Best regards Kz

One thing to keep in mind about Linseed oil, is that it is dangerous to leave rags around that you may have used to wipe down wood with, for it can burst into flame.

That's what the painters told me.

Hi wire,

It certainly looks like I/we may need that! Thanks.

Take care and good luck.

"That's what the painters told me." Very good practice to name your sources Trans.

Were this true, 1000's of artists, artisans and farmers would know about it.

The thing likely left out is; If you chuck your fag in Linseed oil soaked rags left around they can burst into flame.

I imagine the oil on the rags would have to be fully cured (as opposed to 'wet') or the fag would just go out, (as they do when you drop in the dish of oil - damn ).

How ever my opinion is only based on decades of wood wiping with Linseed oil, way back to cricket bats.

I'd be fascinated if anyone has data on the risk I've been oblivious to.

P.s 'fag' = cigarette. Not 'fag' = slave of upper form English school boy. Or 'fag' = homosexual. For a start, you would need a lot more rags.

One or two linseed oil soaked rags would be sufficient to cause spontaneous combustion to occur. The process of linseed oil drying is one of oxidation

Fascinating bwire - thanks for that link.

"oxidization" - fancy that - like rust?

I wonder if you have to have a particular rag material? Or some other contaminant, maybe detergent or bleach residual? Or maybe the rags were damp? (water). Or maybe a particular brand has some other additive?

I note the author has failed to reproduce the event, doubly curious.

I must see if I can get it to happen.

Mineral turps sounds like an interesting starting point.

And of course, a big pile.

I wonder if these folk all have swimming pools?

I wonder why the rake hoes don't burst into flames

Curious indeed.

Made me curious. Turns out it isnt oxidization, it is polymerization that creates the heat. With heat and a solvent, poof, flames. The ace hardware site selling a can even states it makes heat as it dries. I might have to ask my chemistry teacher about this and look up the chemical equation.

Drew

Read that link, interesting but the only 'reference' I see on the fire side of things is;

1. ^ KOB.com - Oil-soaked rags to blame for saloon fire

Which is a 'page not found' at KOB TV. Not that I distrust our magnificent media in getting the facts right, but absence of 'quantification' of the heat produced does bother me a bit. There are a hell of a lot of "exothermic" reactions with bugger all heat evolution.

Here's another source which (I think) supports the polymerization theory. It's an essay, but references are given at the end.

I do believe that explains it, or more accurately why I have never run into it.

First you need the boiled or tricked up stuff (foot p3 to top p4).

And second/third that which refers to my deliberately vague previous musings.

Thanks JD, solid job

Unfortunately the key work by Howitt, Zhang and Sanders seems not on the web.

This may have to wait until I get 'book time'

The claim was that the process of linseed oil drying is by oxidation.

The post was a response to Trans comment upon cautions of using boiled linseed oils.

'Bin' white shellac will seal rust stains, knots in #2 pine, etc. Don't use it as a whole house primer, but it is very effecive for spot problems.

I was wondering if you all could help me? I must be sitting on something rusty , because I keep finding brown marks on the back of my trousers. Any suggestions?

Sincerely, Packrat

Upon further investigation I have determined that the brown stains are not so much on the trousers as on the back of my shorts , any suggestions?

Hello Packrat561,

Your remarques are valueable for certain but out of the main subject. For you, I suggest to visit a convenient store and ask for toilet paper, Charmine for preference. Returne to the principal subject or issue for the next note, Gil.

Nota Bene: I correct no one except me, I teach no one except me, I tell no one except myself what to do. But, make a personal crisis and show how ignorant and disperser can be a human, it's too much to suggest how to eliminate some naturally upcoming difficulties as stains or discolourations. Pack your Rat mister 561 and hav a nice day, Gil.

Gil como vatoo, mon ami, just a little play to move the day along.

Merci for your advice,

Packrat

Hi packrat561,

Have you got enough to do a S-u-u-u-p-e-r-/-S-l-i-d-e-r?

Hey B Bear,

I'll try the stair rail,,,,,,,WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Packdrill

Hi Boys, you Packrat561 and BabyBear,

Your personal communications fill completely my screen as message twice a day. These will never solve the problem of some colour bleeding or same stuff. If you are too young tyo talk about what's the subject, please let others to do it. And you two? Take another subject and start some crazy sentences. All the best for you two, Gil.

N.B.: Again, I don't want to be your father but some discipline towards the world or human population. Wait for your action, fine people.

Hi packrat561,

Watch out for the knob at the bottom!