Perfect Sphere

Nothing is absolutely perfect. Where do you draw the line as far as tolerance goes?

Mathematics is the only thing that I can think of.

.

QED

Nothing is perfect in nature. Blame Eve.

The concept of perfection is a human one. Assuming perfection makes the math easier. I blame the mathemagicians.

I went to a G.I. Specialist. He said he had seen a few perfect circles during his career but in reality they were perfect sphincters from start to finish.

well, there are no gods and no spheres made by gods.

They do make spheres, but as long as they are made of matter they can not be perfect spheres because if you magnify enough you will see the gaps between the atoms = not perfect.

I would agree about the nature of perfect. Perfect in the physical universe is based on a definition of acceptable tolerances. What is acceptable can change from one context to another and is usually based on need. What do you need your perfect sphere for? Define your tolerances.

As stated, nothing is perfect. However, a soap bubble in a zero gravity environment may come close.

Bernie Katz

Ball bearings come close. Even they have a level of surface roughness that strays away from "perfection".

So, the tolerance for the sphericity of the desired object needs to be stated.

I think I'm becoming a Bernie Katz fan.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing true zero gravity. As long as there is mass in the universe, won't there be gravitational fields generated?

Then again, how close to perfect spheres are atoms, themselves?

Why would anyone require a perfect sphere? A truly perfect sphere would be so amazingly perfect that even it would be considered a god and then people would worship it and the real God would then be angry. In fact, even considering the thought of a truly perfect sphere could be considered worship of another God.

there seem to be more than 10,000 gods, each feeling they are the only one, do you think they get argumentative in the common room?

Trinitron. I agree with you, you have a point! What I don't understand is this; Why do we humans strive so much for the perfect? The perfect is non existant, if we lived in a perfect world in a perfect universe we would not be seeking the perfect in anything. Perfection is limited only by the degrees of perfection, and what pray are those? This is the stuff of philosiphers, and even they are not perfect! Perfection is the domain of God or if you prefer, the Gods? Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool!

god is not perfect either, because then he would have created a perfect universe

But a perfect universe would be a bore, that's why God gave us free will, because He has a sense of humor.

Hi Guest, your right, hahahahahahahahah, hohohohohohohohoh, heheheheh, hahahahahhaha, ad infinitum. Amen

Whether there is 1 God or many, the chances are He (They) probably get a rise out us mere mortals striving to achieve perfection. What cheeses Him (Them) off is the fact that we dare to attempt to devise anything as good as a god and also that we seem to waste so much time in doing so. After all there is more to life, like caring for our fellow beings who suffer while others follwo worthless goals!

I used to have a Trinitron. That was a good TV.

Someone else who read flatland as a kid?

If it were possible to view the universe as a whole from outside of it, would it not be a perfect sphere, since it has been expanding equally in all directions from an infintissimally small point, which would be the center?

Why does it have to be expanding evenly?

I have never seen any explosion that expanded as a sphere.

T-Rex

Any gravitational non-uniformity in the universe would result in any supposed hyper-sphere* not being truly spherical. Our existence on this planet alone is evidence of such non-uniformity, albeit on a 'small' scale. The theories of the rapid expansion phase of the universe predicted non-uniformity on a much greater scale; the observation of variations in the cosmic background radiation in the COBE experiments has been taken as supporting these theories. Even those who argue that gravitational fields due to "dark matter" might account for at least a part of the observed variation would accept that such fields would contribute to medium-scale non-uniformity.
*And even that assumes that the universe is finite - see for example Jorrie's blog on an expanding infinite universe)

Fyz

I agree.

FYI, I am God and none of this blather even comes close to bothering me. Get real!

In response to your question as to whether a perfect sphere or a perfect circle exists...

God lives just down the street from me. I saw Him at the convenience store and asked Him if there are any perfect spheres or circles in the universe. He laughed, and told me that He was aware of this thread, and that no, there are no perfect spheres or circles in the universe.

"Why not, God?" I asked.

He turned and looked at me as He was on His way out of the store with a newspaper under His arm and a carton of milk in His plastic shopping bag.

"Not necessary." He said.

Just thought I'd pass that along to you, seeing as God is an old Value Engineer.

Mark

As the perfect sphere would prove that pi is a real number and exists within our numbering scheme - which we all know is not the case...

Might I suggest that there is no such thing as a perfect sphere because the number that defines perfection, pi, doesn't appear to fit into our numbering system?

John.

Unless you are a mathematician:

Consider a perfect sphere....

Consider a spherical cow...

Exactly where does one milk a spherical cow?

Mark

One performs a simple inversion, and the milk is now outside :)

Phenomenal! <|{:-)

Can this trick be applied to my Stuck! problem?

Mark

Indubitably

Just because our decimal numbering system is not rational with respect to pi does not prove that a sphere or anything else to do with pi cannot be as close to perfect as otherwise possible. Suppose we had a numbering system with the base pi rather than the base 10. Although the base 10 is convenient for a myriad of reasons, a numbering system can have any base we wish it to.

Bernie Katz

In the absence of other forces, gravity attempts to pull matter into a sphere. Small droplets of liquid in weightlessness do a pretty good job of getting spherical. However, matter itself seems to be composed of discrete bits with space between them, so getting to "perfect" seems unlikely.

Then again, are the smallest bits (quarks, leptons) round? We can't say, as there's no way to measure them at present.

Not a single perfect sphere, yet so many perfect asses :)

Kindly allow me to wax philosophical for a moment...

When humans say "perfect" we usually mean "uniform and static" as in a perfect silence or a perfectly clear sky. As we learn about our Universe, we find that everything is fluid and dynamic. From the simple rhythms of day and night to the overwhelming cosmic expansion, we see nothing static or uniform. Space and time themselves are variable, and even a "perfect vacuum" seethes with virtual particles.

Our simple human ideal of "perfect" can't hold a candle to the active exuberance of nature. I suspect that the Universe's expression of "perfect" would not be like a math student's Perfect Circle, but more like a surfer's Perfect Wave!

(Just my own ponderings. Thanks for your indulgence.)

yes, in nature all changes, nothing is perfect

Of course perfect circles exist, however we cannot 'view' them. Light speed is not fast enough.

Once a circle is viewed pi will no longer be 'irrational'

Of course we are all forgetting the fundamentals of engineering...understand the requirement. We should of course ask the customer the background behind his request. Understand the reasons for asking and then devise the solution. It could be that the perfect sphere isn't perfectly spherical. Maybe it is spherical sometimes but flexible such that it will also fit into the proverbial square hole! Maybe the question arose because he had been spoken to by some God who was looking for the perfect sphere (to settle some argument down the local of its existance)!

If you stand far enough away, everything looks spherical.

Have some extra whiskys. The more you drink, the more perfect collored circles you'll see in the air in front of you

HI bhrescobar, I tried that once, and you are right, there were so many different coloured circles and spheres that I lost my balance and fell asleep. The big problem was that the next day my head felt like a whopping great cube. Further experimenting with whisky has produced the same results.

Try single malt, and drink more water before you pass out.

Hi Guest, I only drink single malt, my favourite is Lagavulin but I also like Glenmorangie. I hate water, and anyway drinking whisky is the only method that I know of when I can see perfect circles and spheres. I'v tried vodka, gin, bourbon and home brew but nothing works as good as whisky.

That must be what the Disney animators were knocking back when they drew the "pink elephant" scene in Dumbo - the scene with all the psychedelic bubbles. What a trippy bit of video that is! Kids don't notice it much, but adults (and college kids) get a serious kick.

In my (long but limited) experience, you can't taste the water if you time it right, and it doesn't intersphere with the feres. But it sure ameliorates the cubes (I didn't enjoy the scouts either)

During the U.S. Revolutionary War they made cannon balls by dropping molten iron ore into water. The water pressure being equal on all sides, cooled into a sphere. Just a little history on cannon ball making near Boston. LOL! I would say that in nature, it is probably impossible to create a perfect sphere, because of too many factors acting on an object here on earth. In space though, in a controlled environment the chances are alot better. Is this a new shuttle experiment??

Actually, they've done something similar, making very tiny and very uniform spheres for medical and chemical use. Micro-gravity is a useful commodity for manufacturing!

Also: I saw a video of an astronaut "pouring" his coffee into the air. It made a nice oscillating sphere. He then drank the coffee out of the air. Cool.

I believe that a perfect sphere does exist, but it is not made of matter. Who knows what shape is ones spirit? Well, just the fact that we can immagine (I can...) a perfect sphere could mean that it is out there for us (among many many other things not yet discovered) to discover, even AFTER this short life on earth. I think that Heaven could be inside a perfect sphere... And that is exactly what faith is. I haven't seen one, but I believe it...

Seeing is not believing.. That is why God (the only one, Creator of all) is not to be seen with our human eyes... Then faith would not exist. Maybe that is our answer... Faith is a perfect sphere, so is Hope and also Love.

Met God at the bowling alley last night. Asked Him what he thought about your idea of believing being defined in the realm of 'not seeing'. He said that belief doesn't depend on whether you see a thing or not. Rather, it's the faith that your ideas about it are true.

"The difficulty begins," He said, "when you begin to base your life on beliefs; because they are, by definition, subject to challenge and potential disproving. If your life is based on a series of beliefs, or beliefs based on beliefs, you will open yourself up sooner or later to disruption and havoc."

BTW, God is a fairly good bowler. Bit of a problem with his approach at the foul line, but good control on the curves.

Mark

".. Walk by faith, not by sight... faith comes from hearing, and hearing through My word.... And look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.... I wish that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in My power... For in this hope you were saved... Now, hope that is seen is not hope... For who hopes for what he sees?... What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, I have prepared for you who love Me... And remember, faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen..." - God...

Ps...I used a perfect spherical bouwling ball last night...

And as for me?.. I have not seen a perfect sphere, but I sure believe there is one out there, somewhere..

Hi MarkTheHandyman, Do you not have faith in yourself, or believe in yourself? Christopher Colubus had faith when he set out on his voyage in 1492. Churchill and most of us Englishmen had faith and belief as did a lot of Americans during the second world war. If one has not got faith or a belief then one is nothing!

faith is the ultimate foolishness in science and keads to bias. evidence is everything.

with zero evidence validating faith there should be no faith or religion. 10,000 cults run their interminable con games to gain waelth and influence by propagating faith based chicanery

I entirely agree that "in science" evidence is (nearly) everything". Modelling and extrapolation are the other half of the picture, and drive the collection of evidence. The evidence is then used to refine or modify the models [a virtuous circle?]. However, depending on your perspective, you can look on that as a definition of modern science - or as an article of faith.

With regard to non-scientific input, I personally find the feel-good religiosity displayed on this thread a lot less offensive than the "alternative theorists" on several other threads, whose approach seems to be "if you can't be bothered with the detail, create a simple contradictory theory that appears to correlate with thee immediate effect, and call it science". The terrifying thing is that such contributions seem to be presented with more certainty and more frequently than properly worked explanations.

Fyz

I agree. Your tolerance is reasonable and as solid as mine. Was it the big bang, or the hand of God? The answer is maybe out there, but as an engineer, I have to go with the things that we presume to be fact from a scientific standpoint as objects currently exist, regardless of their origin. That is all you can do other than an educated guess based on other facts. A perfect sphere to me is impossible. An object may seem perfect, but put under the microscope so to speak, there are flaws. I can't imagine any object in the universe that was produced under such conditions that would cause it to be perfect. There is always an underlying factor that is the cause of not being perfect, structural or chemical. If you were within tolerence of being perfect, you would still not be perfect.

The question in the first place was if there is a perfect sphere or circle that exists (materially). The scientific answer then (according to evidence) is NO. But if some one wants to proof that there is such a thing he or she will have to believe that there is one until they found it, or give up and stop believing, or not start looking for it in the first place and just publish their statement that there is no such thing as a perfect circle naturally. As far as non-science goes I believe everything we wonder about will be proven or revieled as bogus eventually...and even the stuff we never even knew about... It is all science to me anyway. Thanks for the ears.

It puzzles me that this question has rankled so many people, just because it mentions God! Darwin, Hawking, and Einstein use the word "God" in their writings, with full understanding of the underlying concept. One need not be an atheist to be a brilliant scientist.

I find science fascinating, meaningful, absorbing, challenging, necessary, worthwhile. But even my friends who are atheists acknowledge that science isn't Everything. A life of only science, nothing but science? How bleak!

I thank God for science. I also thank God for all the realities above and beyond science.

In God we trust, all others please pay cash!

aMEN!

PS. Maybe halo's are perfect circles....