Chemical Mixtures

I believe that an industrial drain system can be fabricated to accept both the acid and base waste that you have listed. The key question is, is your industrial drain system made this way?

Our industrial drain is made of polypropylene so it can handle all the chemistries individually without question. But will those chemicals create a reaction that is volitile, exothermic or in any other way hazardous?

Chemistry is not my primary field of expertise, so don't just take my word for this. Listen to the people you hired.

One of the reaction products I expect you will get will be the release of ammonia gas (NH3) and chlorine gas (CL). These are both poisonous gasses. But without knowing how your system is vented and the volume of both materials used I would not guess if this can be done safely with your single disposal system.

Hello redfred,

Chemistry is not my primary field of expertise, so don't just take my word for this...

Well, that's an understatement! To wit:

One of the reaction products I expect you will get will be the release of ammonia gas (NH3) and chlorine gas (CL).

Since mixture 1 is quite dilute, neither NH₃ or Cl₂ will be released. In the process of the neutralization, salts will be formed. One of the salts in this instance is NH₄Cl, bonding the NH₃ and Cl into the salt, a solid at room temp (when not in solution of course!).

I leave as an exercise for you to review the composition of the two mixtures and do the stoichiometry of a complete reaction between the two. When you do this, you may have a question for me.

If you, redfred, do this and ask the right question I'll tell you the simple solution so that you can design a useful acid neutralization system.

Mike

Alright, maybe I did deserve some of that from from how I answered an apparent electronics homework problem. I certainly was honest about my chemistry knowledge. Unlike some who proclaim bad ideas as sound. But I was not certain that this particular pairing of the two strong acids of sulfuric acid and hydrochloric acid mixed with hydrogen peroxide with the weak base ammonium hydroxide would form a salt or release the gasses. I do remember though that one should add acid to water when diluting a strong acid to prevent the excessive heat from boiling the water.

As far as an added question though, what do the percentages in The mixtures in particular are: 1) H2SO4(96%),HCl(37%), H2O2(30%) supposed to be telling someone? Adding up the percentages one gets well over 100% so I knew that that doesn't make any sense. So I made no assumption about concentrations. If H2SO4(96%) means that 96% of the hydronium ions available from this acid is dissociated then that's hardly a dilute mixture.

Oh, do you know a simple way to stop thermal runaway from happening in a push-pull BJT amplifier?

The last part of my post was meant to be amusing because I really enjoyed the last part of your post on the push-pull amplifier.

As far as the percentages of the individual components of the mixtures are concerned, they are the percentage of the compound in water. Think of the percentages as a purity level. Let's do an example:

If mixture 1 was 2 parts H2SO4, 2 parts HCl, and 1 part H2O2 (all by weight), the breakdown would be:

And yes, this (above) mixture 1 is not a dilute mixture, but mixture 2 is.

Oh, do you know a simple way to stop thermal runaway from happening in a push-pull BJT amplifier?

But of course; submerge said component in a cold water recirculation tank with a mean velocity high enough to achieve turbulent flow!

Seriously though, your grasp of chemistry is better than my grasp of electronics, though ironically I am more interested in electronics now than I ever was with chemistry.

Cheers,

Mike

Well that was one of the ways my fuzzy memory on chemistry recalled what those percentages meant but I wasn't sure that I was right. I thank you for refreshing my chemistry memory and for the nice comment on my push-pull amplifier response.

I did notice though that you had to choose a ratio to come up with the final numbers. The OP did say that fluid 1 would actually have various ratios. I was also apprehensive to say that these two batches of hazardous fluids could be mixed because the OP did say that this was an industrial drain. Industrial implies to me tons of fluid. I won't recommend that anybody dispose of tons of a weak base into tons of an uncertain acid concentration that already has an oxidizer mixed in. A possible exothermic reaction with an oxidizer and possible organic parts in the drain fittings just didn't seem like a good idea.

Now I am glad to see that the possible hazard of chlorine gas being produced was real but it clearly will not be from reacting with fluid 2.

I've noticed the push-pull amplifier thread seems to have ended. I think I will add later today to it the thermal runaway reason and solution.

Polypropylene should be suitable for all combinations of both mixtures in the concentrations indicated. Too dilute for exothermic issues to create drain damaging temperatues.

You still there Mophat?

As long as the pipes are of a material compatible with all of the components, especially the acidic mixture and, since mixture 2 is very dilute, I say yes, use the same transfer piping. For safety, I would flush an amount of water after the transfer of mixture 1.

Mike

The first mixture can form explosive peroxides with accumulated organic matter. Very dangerous. Organic peroxides can explode for any reason or no reason.

And yes, solution (1) might generate chlorine, so there's a slight risk of generating toxic chloramine where the solutions mix. I'd do the calculation to confirm, but then I'd have to send you a bill.

I'm assuming that both mixtures conform to your company's waste control procedures and EPA regs.

Dangerous Bill

IT IS NOT ADVISIBLE TO DRAIN THESE CHEMICALS IN ONE DRAIN DUE TO FOLLOWING REASONS

H2SO4 IS VERY REACTIVE WITH HCL AND GIVES EXOTHERMIC REACTION WITH WATER, IT RAISES WATER TEMP IMMEDIATELY

FORMATION OF THIONYL COMPDS CAN NOT BE RULED OUTWITH H2SO4 AND HCL

PRESENCE OF AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE SHALL SPOIL THE POSITION FURTHER BY MAKING AMMONIUM CHLORIDE.THIS GIVES HEAVY VAPOURS OF AMM CHLORIDE AS AMM CHLORIDE SOLIDIFIES AT LOW TEMP ONLY .AMM CHLODIDE VAPOURS AFFECT EYES AND YOU CAN NOT STAND IN THAT AREA DUE TO HIGH TEMP OF MIXTURE

H2O2 PRESENCE MAY BE EXPLOSIVE IN PRESENCE OXIDATION REACTION DUE TO H2SO4 PRESECE.

IT IS SUGGESTED TO NEUTRALISE H2 SO4/HCL WITH LIME OR LIME STONE BEFORE MIXING

H2SO4 IS VERY STRONG ACID AND MAKES THE EFFLUENT HIGHLY ACIDIC.IT TAKES LOT OF TIME AND CHEMICALS TO MAKE PH CONTROL

IT IS BETTER TO RECOVER THESE VALUABLE CHEMICALS OR GAINFULLY UTILISE D INSTEAD OF DRAINING

ALL THES CHEMICALS ARE ARE VERY STRONG AND CHEMICALY REACTIVE ,SO IT NOT SUGGESTED TO DRAIN IN COMBINATION WHATEVER THE MATERIAL OF CONSTRUCTION THE PIPE/DRAIN HAS FROM SAFETY POINT OF VIEW. ALL THE CHEMICALS MUST BE NEUTRALISED SEPARATELY BEFORE MIXING IF AT IT IS THE NECESSISTY.

Can you please let us know the products of reaction of dilute sulphuric acid with dilute hydrochloric acid?

None. There is no reaction.

NO REACTION BETWEEN DILUTE H2SO4 AND DILUTE HCL. BUT REACTIONS ARE TAKING PLACE DUE TO IMPURITIES IN THESE ACIDS AND TEMPERATURE CONDITIONS. NORMALLY IRON IS IMPURITY IN H2SO4 AND HCL WHICH CAN GIVE DIFFERENT SULPHUR PRODUCTS AND SULPHATE FORMATION AND HYDROGEN GENERATION.

Mophat

The limit of my chemistry is making the early morning cuppa for "she who must be obeyed".

That said and reading your question, it would seem to me you have a doubt about these chemicals being mixed in the same pipe, therefore I guess you think its a safety/hazzard issue?

If you have any concerns over safety, then don't even attempt it.

Study your Haz chem info sheets, do your risk assesments, call Safety, but I strongly suggest you take a step back, get someone to oversee what you are doing and if there is any doubt.. STOP!

Safety is foremost.... better to be safe than sorry

I FULLY AGGREE WITH THE REPLY. ALSO IN THESE DAYS OF COMPITITION ,SAFETY CAN NOT BE BYPASSED. SAFETY LEADS TO PRODUCTION AND NOT THE PRODUCTION LEADS TO SAFETY. PRODUCTION HAS TO BE ACHIEVED AT LOW COST,SAFE WORKING AND POLLUTION FREE ATMOSPHERE. FOR THIS ,ONE HAS TO DO ALL EXERCISES TO ACHIEVE IT BEFORE MAKING ANY OPERATION/MODIFICATION.

In response to many of these posts, many posters seem to have forgotten to read clearly a very important part of the original post. Perhaps one of the most important parts of it is--

Mixture one can any combination

Mixture two is in a 1:1:100 ratio

The concentration of Mixture one can be any combination of the 3 components. A very wide spectrum of reactions and adverse effects are possible.

All too many of us posters home in on only one part of the post which result in resultant answers being way off the original subject and some of the answers being grossly dangerous.

We are doing everyone an injustice if we present ourselves as authorities on a subject when we are only guessing with what we present as an answer or solution.

H2SO4(96%) is known as CONCENTRATED SULFURIC ACID, very lethal stuff

HCL(37%) is known as CONCENTRATED HYDROCHLORIC ACID, also very lethal stuff

H2O2(30%) is known as CONCENTRATED HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, also very lethal stuff

All of these are extremely caustic and strong oxidizers. Read the MSDS's!

THESE ARE SURELY NOT ITEMS TO BE GUESSED AT!

Do the world a favor and don't put anyone at risk by posting guesses or unverified answers. Your casual answer might result in harm or worse to another individual.

I was a Chem Eng for 40 yrs. Many of them involved with safety and environmental. Most of my accident investigations were necessary because of really dumb things that people did or the lack of proper knowledge. In those years we have gone from about a million organic chemicals to in excess of 5 million, most of which enrich our lives in one way or another. There are alot of people on the earth but unfortunately none to spare because of dumb answers.

Outstanding... that's why I wanted our friend to stop and think, or even better STOP. You have highlighted one very important point here, while we all like to offer answers and hope we are all helping sometimes I think that we miss the obvious, that there is danger in everything we do.

Correct me if I'm wrong but once a chemical reaction has started, it is almost impossible to stop.... with electricity you can switch it off. Give me the option of chemicals or electricity, I go for the latter every time.

We must all think responsible and keep safety foremost in our minds BEFORE we give an answer.

Here's to safe answers.

>>H2SO4(96%) is known as CONCENTRATED SULFURIC ACID, very lethal stuff

>>H2O2(30%) is known as CONCENTRATED HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, also very lethal stuff

The mixture of sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide is sometimes called 'pirhana', and it's used for destroying traces of organic matter when working with silicon blanks in microfabrication. Carelessly handled, it will form organic peroxides which are very sensitive explosives. Google 'piranha acid' to get lots of references and cautions on this.

Also, see the 'disposal' section in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha_solution

This is the foremost danger I see in this disposal.

DB

A Great big thanks to all that had helpful information.

In regards to safety it is my utmost conern as I would not want to be responsible for any injuries, and also is the reason I am going to consult a professional. I was just hoping to expand my knowledge from the people on this forum

in regards to the concentrations, when i say H2O2(30%), It is 30% H2O2 and 70% water. This is straight from our MSDS.

If anyone is still interested, the chemicals are drained from seperate baths by a valve at the bottom of each tank. While they are drained they are being diluted with DI water as well as city water directly tied to the pipe to continue diluting. The pipe goes to our acid neut system.

Mixture 1 is already in use and complys with all our safety regulations and permits.

Mixture 2 is for a new system.

Overall I believe this should be fine but I do not plan on proceeding until it has been confirmed. Once again thanks to everyone.

>>Mixture 1 is already in use and complys with all our safety regulations and permits.

That's surprising. 30% H2O2 (aqueous) reacts with strong or concentrated sulfuric acid to form a reagent that will form organic peroxides. Both acid and peroxide should be diluted with substantial amounts of water before being mixed together. Even though permits allow it, there is still a safety hazard.

Be sure to read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha_solution

Dangerous Bill