Motor Oils: Are We Brain Washed?

I wouldn't run anything other then synthetic for 5k miles in my car. You should check out this site is you'd really like to know more about oil. Like CR4 its a very active community.

Bob is an Oil Guy

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16,000 register members who love to talk about oil

I have to agree with you. Synthetics are the only way to go with 2 exceptions.

If you have a brand new car most manufacturers recommend that you don't put a synthetic oil in your vehicle until you have a minimum of 6000 miles on it. You have to allow for a thorough breakin period before using synthetics as the process stops immediately after you start using it.

The other exception is vehicles that are high mileage vehicles. High mileage (over 150k miles) vehicles tend to leak past the oil seals when converted to synthetics of the same viscosity. If you intend to change to a synthetic oil in this instance it is recommended to take it up at least one if not 2 viscosity ratings.

As for brand. I personally am a fan of Valvoline. Just using their non-synthetic oils i have had at least 5 vehicles that have exceded 350k miles. I average 35 to 40 k miles per year minimum. The only other oil I would recommend if you plan on changing to a synthetic is Mobil. They are the innovator of synthetics and were the first to introduce it to the general public.

I'm sorry to have to twist your tail, but that is NOT correct!

It's only in the past 5 years or so that most manufacturers stopped lying to customers by telling them that synthetics will void the warranty. Most still know VERY little about them. It is totally unnecessary to wait 6,000 miles. Still in doubt? Ask the oil manufacturer. They are not going to tell you to use their product in a manner that is going to disappoint the customer or damage the equipment.

It is NOT necessary, and very unadvised to use higher (especially two steps) viscocity. This is ESPECIALLY true with synthetics. They have a much superior film strength than dinosaur oil. You can even go down one( NOT that I'm recommending it). Whichever brand you use, MAKE SURE it's made from type IV (PAO) base. The type III is just rengineered petroleum, and the rules allow it to be called synthetic.

The only brand of synthetic lubricants that are cost effective is AMSOIL. AJ Amatuzio invented the synthetic motor oil in the 60's. It was rated 25,000 miles even then. AMSOIL was incorporated in 1972. The AMSOIL line of lubricants and filters is the best in the world. This is an undisputed FACT.

One oil change per year, including the best automotive filter available, costs about $55.00 (plus whatever additional oil your motor uses during the year). Plus you get an increase in fuel economy. Plus there is more horsepower available. Plus less time wasted on frequent oil changes. Plus no more hassle trying to schedule those frequent oil changes. Plus easy cold starts. Plus peace of mind knowing you are using the best lubricant available to protect your engine, transmission, differentials etc.

Check it out on the Amsoil web site www.amsoil.com

feel free to contact me for more information. superlubes@bellsouth.net

Mason Westling

LOL You sound like an amsoil rep.

1. What I was referring to on the breakin had nothing to do with warranty only pure mechanical operation of the motor. Even Motorcycle manufacturers with their 12000 rpm high reving motors still recommend waiting for a solid breakin before changing to a synthetic.

2. From experience I have discovered that when changing to synthetics in a Higher Mileage engine that the superior film strength has nothing to do with leaking by worn seals. The much more fluid nature of synthetics aloows it to move past and older worn seal thus the needed increase in viscosity.

3. I don't care who manufacturers the synthetic oil you just have to stick with a good grade of oil recommended for you car.

4. Its not a matter of getting my tail twisted. However 25 years of working on all types of machinery as well as cars boats and motorcycles, qualifies me to be able to speak with a great deal of experience on this. I don't just give idle advice.

Thank you for your time.

Would love to get 350,000 miles. Any other tips. Have you had to change transmissions, undercarriage parts, and a lot of other stuff?

Ron

Seems wrong to me my "old" 2002 Rcommends 10w20 semi synthetic oil and my other 2002 truck also uses the same and per the maker if not used will VOID my warranty on the engine.

Bob, recently Hot Rod magazine had an article about oils in which they examined the effects of the new EPA oil pollution standards and how the removal of the additives such as the metallics and phosphers will shorten the life of all sliding engine components. There was also an article in which Comp Cams, a major after market cam manufacturer, had increasing failures of their highly loaded flat tappet cams due to the removal of oil additives. Both the articles recommended using diesel grade oils as they still have the additive packages and won't be required to delete them until well into 2008. Since you're an oil guy can you shed any light on what oil additives a guy could buy "off the shelf" which would have all of the phosphors, molys and anti rust compounds needed to protect highly stressed engines? John

Which motor oil should I use?

As the old saying goes. You get what you pay for. As a general rule the more expensive oils are the synthetic and in my opinion they are far superior to petrolium oils. They orginated from the Airospace industry. Developed to withstand the extreem temperature differences of a jet engine. A synthic oil can stand very high temperatures (jet exaust) and very cold temperatures (stratisphere temps <-60F) without lossing it lubricating properties. But be prepared to pay $4.00 or more per quart. but they last a lot longer than 3000 to 4000 miles.

I do not wish to get into a debate about the best oil, but I can personally vouch for Castrol.I have 2 Hondas with over a half-million miles combined milage,no rebuilds, no engine problems.I change oil and filter every 3k to 4k. I have not used synthetics at all yet.I don't intend on going into the stratosphere or Death Valley.

Synthetics may be better, but how would I know? I may not ever wear out these cars.

I hate to change brands when I know I have a good one.All the oils may be the same if they have the same rating, but I am sticking to what works for me.

Oil does not "wear out" per se, but it mainly becomes dirty, with products of combustion and metallic wear particals from the engine.A cold start also contaminates the oil with water from combustion, and raw gasoline from wash-down of the cold cylinders.

Engines that run on Liquified Propane do not have to contend with wash-down, or high-carbon contaminates, so the oil never gets black or dirty looking.But it still must be changed regularly because it gets contaminated. Also, some of the additives in the new oil get exhausted.If I was faced witht the choice of either changing the oil or the filter,but not both, I woud choose the filter.Look at your first-pass efficiency ratings of the filter and compare before purchasing.

I've always been told that oil does indeed "wear out" as the carbon chains break down and the oil loses its lubricity over time. Even with perfect filtration one needs to change oil regularly. The oil may look clean, but it still breaks down. The synthetics don't break down as quickly. The single pass 98% efficient synthetic glass and cellulose filters are probably worth the money too, but I would rather change the oil than the filter if I had to choose.

Petroleum oils DO wear out. Listen to Castrol's commercial. "The best protection against viscocity breakdown." They also degrade from the heat in an engine.

Follow this link, if you've got time, to learn everything you ever wanted too about engine oil! My experience is this, do not put synthetic oil in a high mileage, mineral oil using engine, as it will rattle out! I now use semi synthetic oil in all my vehicles, don't get the most expensive, just check the API standard. I always go for the API3 spec, and have never had any problems.

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

The answer is yes you are! Take into account how and where you drive. Stop and go traffic kills an engine and your oil should therefore be change no later than 5000 miles but 3000 is recommended due to to the engine wear and the exhaust from other vehicles being sucked into the engine through the air filter. You also have to take climate into account as well. Like stated before by members a high humidity situation does build condensation in the engine and degrades the oil.

Ok, here are some number first:

The standard Shell oil 10w30 is made of the following 5 main part:

-6% of shell 100 (22cst group 1 base oil)

-70% of shell 160 (35cSt group 2 base oil)

-10% of detergent package

-13% of viscosity improver (for the 10 w 30 grade)

-0.3% of pore point depressor (to start in low temperature)

Now the two first part (base oil) are normaly, the only one that change in a synthetis oil

for either a group 2 base oil, like in Chevron HT or Petro-Canada HT (use in the Castrol Synthec) or group 2+3+4 in the Mobil One

some other number :

-group 1 base oil are petrol oil that cost about 0.50$ a pint. So if you buy a synthetic oil for 1$ a pint, you buy group standard group1 "Dino" oil.

-group 2 base oil are petrol oil super refine HT that cost about 0.75$ a pint. So for 4$ a pint you buy group 2 oil still "Dino" oil.

-group 3 + 4 base oil are synthetic oil that cost about 4-11$ a pint or more, So for 10$ you buy a mixe of group 2 + 3 + 4 oil. But still some "Dino" oil in it.

The detergent package is the only part that do degrade with the acidity by-product and the carbone particule that are generated in the motor. This part degrade at about the same speed in the synthetic or standard base oil. In normal operation the detergent package do last around 6000 to 7000 miles. The viscosity improver do degrade with high temperature and high load like in a diesel motor. But in a standard gas car, the operating point are normaly not high to do any damage to the viscosity improver. In both synthetic and "dino" Oil, the base oil part do last longer and the additive part. the pore point depressor high start a low temperature. It help a lot in the group 1 oil, but less in synthetic oil, but if the oil become full of carbone particule, neither will start at low temperature.

In Conclusion, if you do you change of oil normaly, you drive normaly, you don't do stop and go all the time, you can buy a Standard oil and it will do OK.

Hi, A local quick lube recomends an annual flush of the oil lube system with some kind of cleaner. Is there any thing to this or are they just trying to make an extra buck?

There is something to it AND they are trying to make an extra many bucks. Otherwise, no. The local quick lube should immediately be reported to state consumer protection agency. To see if they've crossed the line into unlawful. Local TV station should be encouraged to investigate as well. Then there would be something to it....to all local consumers benefit.

The manufacturer's handbook for the vehicle will advise on oil-change frequencies.

Take everything from a manufacturer with a grain of salt. Toyota recomends an oil change every 3,500 miles and in adverse conditions more often then that. I think this is a little excessive. While a manufacturer will know its engine best, the manufacturing dept has to bow to the "we need to keep the customer coming back as often as possible to generate a future revenue stream." If the manufacturers can't do it creating a defective product then they must do it by getting the customer back as often as possible for planned maintenance.

There are benefits with certain oils, but if you have always used a particular type or brand of oil, it is best to stick to it. Changing from mineral to semi or full synthetic oils can cause seals to break down and leak. You generally find the mineral oils are better at keeping the oil seals in perfect condition, as they are made from the same 'natural' or mineral based materials that is used in the oil. If however, the car manufacturer has used synthetic based seals using silicons, then a synthetic would be better to keep it lubricated and retain compatability. Hope this makes sense.

C

Silicones, I hope

ANOTHER OLD WIVES TALE All lynthetic motor oils are compatable with all engine seals. Petroleum doesn't change the chemical structure of the seal so that it is in compatable with synthetics. That's foolishness!

Unless you are running an ultra-high-revving engine, I think that most manufacturers recommend oil change closer to every 10k miles. There's probably some advantage in more frequent oil changes during the first 10k miles, but with modern engine materials, oils and filters there's practically no advantage to changing more frequently thereafter. You need to use the same type and grade of oil that is recommended by the manufacturer, but anything more is probably a waste of money. And, stealing your words - has your local lube brainwashed you into changing the oil more frequently than the manufacturer recommends? If so, I'd also be suspicious as to whether you are getting the expensive branded oil that is written on the bill.

Seems one thing is being left out of all this mileage frequency of oil change talk: the calendar frequency of oil change, mileage notwithstanding. Typically, engines (and oil) degrades more quickly on lower mileage-accumulation-rate vehicles, and conversely. Therefore mileage cannot be the only criterion. For vehicles driven lower amounts and less at highway speeds, following a calendar schedule for oil changes becomes the greater factor than mileage. The same holds true for driving under "harse" conditions: dusty; stop/go; hauling or towing; extensive idling; ice/snow/cold; and so on. This hold true whether naturals or synthetics are used. Therefore many, if not most, tend to focus on mileage when their oil change schedules ought to be primarily calendar based. Of course, mfrs will mention this but emphasize mileage...for reasons that are not hard to fathom.

In my experience, they say mileage or time - and always on the same sheet. They have to do this in most jurisdictions to protect their legal position, I think. Because the manufacturer has no idea how the vehicle will be used, the time limit needs to be quite conservative, so it must assume (my guess) an average of about 3 cold-starts per day, and the worst weather conditions for the region for which the instructions are valid. If the vehicle is used mainly for occasional long runs, or the temperature conditions are relatively benign where it is used, it follows that the time specification is also rather conservative.

In regards to conventional oils, I have read from a resource I do not remember that there are 2 types. First came solvent refined motor oils that were terribly inconstant from brand to brand. Pennzoil is "apparently" one of the only few brands that is still solvent refined. Now most oils are manufactured using a process called hydrocracking. This tends to generate much more consistent higher quality oil, thus making all conventional oils close to equal.

I do know that some oils come with friction modifier additives such as Chevron Delo. Mercury Marine recommends Delo because of its Moly additive though other engine manufacturers warn to stay clear of it.

In regards to synthetics I know nothing. I would like to know what the difference is between say Mobil 1 at $4 a quart, Mobil 1 extended 15,000 mile at $6 a quart, Redline at $8 a quart, and any other vastly expensive or cheap synthetic?

I do stay clear of cult like oil companies speaking of "brainwashing". Amsoil anyone?

I know nothing about oil. The manager at a nearby auto parts store, tells me that his "Parts Master" oil is actually packaged for them by Valvoline and is the same oil.

While I have no way of verifying this, it is believable. There may be other "off-brand" oils that are the same oil as the brand name oils.

In europe, a lot of modern cars use the car computer to track the driving conditions and give you warning for an oil change about 2,500 KMs before the change is required.

This allowed me, (towing trailers and other heavy stuff) to run over 30,000 KMs before a change was required. The oil used was Longlife II Full Synthetic, which is not cheap, but as I could drive over 30,000 between changes, that makes it a lot more attractive.

I have used ONLY synthetic oil on all my cars since 1989, I have never had an engine problem at all. I always change filter and oil together, otherwise its like changing your underwear, but never washing your backside to my mind!!! Or the reverse of that.....

One car, a petrol engine, covered well over 360,000 KMs without even showing a sign of wear and tear, it was still not using any oil and started and ran like a new motor....it only did the first 10,000 KMs on normal oil that was put in there by the manufacturer.

It also survived a severe overheating when I was filled up with Agri petrol (instead of Super which I paid for) in Italy. Something that the mafia kindly does to tourists most years!!!

All of my other cars during this time were diesels and only covered about 130,000 KMs or less before being sold, but all were sold with little or no oil consumption.....like 1/2 liter per 10,000 KM... or less.

A taxi firm that I used to use had Skoda TDI taxis and they sell them when they reach about 500,000 KM, but all engines are run only on Synthetic, also the engines are still in full best of health when sold.......!!!

I will not use anything else. But now the present car manufacturer states that it must be Synthetic and of the newest kind (Longlife III).

Good experience with 9 different cars show me that it really does look after the engine... (7 Diesels and two petrol). They were run on the original synthetic oil, then some on longlife II and the latest on Longlife III.

Environmentally, I feel that running with synthetic reduces the shear amount of oil that needs to be disposed of each year. Also, I (and the various car manufacturers!)have never seen the need to change as often as you Guys in the USA do and we have fast motorways etc that the USA is devoid of......is your normal oil really that bad???

...or could the low mileage specification between changes be a result of the litigation culture?

Remember--the cost of 3000mile oil and filter changes (with high quality conventional 10w40 or 5W30) is very small compared to major engine damage. Do not use 'energy conserving' oils as they have insufficient zinc based anti-wear additive to protect high stress valve train and upper cylinder/top ring areas against wear. Zinc di-alkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) is the very best additive for ensuring against scuffing of cam lobes and rockers as well as cylinder/top ring wear in the upper portion of the bore--especially in engines operated at high power (high speed freeway), towing, etc.

Unfortunately, ZDDP is a poison to the 3-way catalytic convertor, and oil consumption has increased in modern engines as designerd have moved to lower internal friction designs for increased fuel economy.

Hence engine oil formulators have reduces the ZDDP content by as much as 75% so they can retain the 'energy conserving' label on their products and therefore qualify as 'meeting all auto manufacturers specifications'.

Your best defence against valve train and clinder/ring wear is more frequent oil changes to keep the ZDDP content up and the oil clean. ZDDP actually chemically reacts with the highly stressed metal surfaces and forms extremely wear resistant iron phosphates..

Stop and go, slow city driving is harder on engines and oil, so frequent oil changes are advised.

Hot, high stress, and/or high revs driving will also need frequent oil changes.

Long highway drives, steady running, moderate constant engine loads provide an oppurtunity to stretch out oil change frequency.

Cold, hot, and/or dusty environmental conditions usually mean more frequent oil changes.

Since I have older vehicles over 100K miles with mainly short trip city driving, I try to change oil on 3-4000 mile (3-6 month) intervals and use standard "Dinosaur" based oil products. I do try to check oil level and color when I fill with gasoline (discount stations), and if I empirically think the oil is "dirty" I will schedule a change. If the engines had some high value, or if they were driven extremely hard, I might consider paying for oil sample analysis but the cars I have are not worth that kind of expense.

My 2 cents to the discussion.

My guess is that the military, and fleets use the cheapest oil they can get that meets manufacturer specs. That is what I would do.

Synthetic oil is another issue, and my dealer said it wasn't worth the price.

Another issue we are brainwashed on is the 3000 mile change. I change every 5000, and don't burn oil after 158,000 miles. Would like feedback on that too.

Ron

By cheapest, I would assume you mean to include remanufactured oil, and you would be correct. But I would say that single-minded reliance on any mileage or calendar schedule of oil change (except perhaps for managed fleets) can also be "short sighted." The clearest indication of the need for oil renewal is the look (primarily) and feel (secondarily) of the oil itself...as the oil on the stick, itself, will say if its ready, or overdue, for being replaced. So it's a good practice to check the stick when new oil is added, and afterwards, to that the look and feel of exhausted oil is obvious.

I agree entirely. There is definitely a change in the look and feel of the oil when it is time to change. My truck doesn't use oil at 160000km, except if I go a little too long before changing oil and suddenly it will burn a half to a quarter liter. Change the oil and it's good again. I usually go 5000 to 7000km between changes. I've tried partial synthetics and higher grade non-synthetics and I haven't noticed any significant difference.

That description sounds more like a contamination effect than anything else.

Not sure which you are responding to; however, glad you agree with both: that when oil becomes "contaminated" (changes color or opacity, thins or loses viscosity, shows combustion by products or detergent suspended matter...) then it is due for, or overdue for a change.

Right - except that some traditional oils change colour very early in use, without any related change in other properties. I think it's a side-effect of a reaction between the additives and the metal; the only problems are that it makes genuine breakdown difficult to detect - and if you don't know about it you might waste money by changing the oil early. Plus the unstated message - check the oil really does go through clean filters, and look for the source of the contamination - nearly all modern oils should last longer than that in any gasoline engine manufactured in the last thirty years (with normal vehicle usage)

I think that we would have to do an oil analysis in a laboratory to determine what the causes are for discolouration and for the change in 'feel' of the oil. I suspect it would be both contamination and oil breakdown. As for suddenly burning oil, I am more inclined to think that this is the result of oil breakdown. The thinner broken down oil slips past the rings and is burned. I am not an oil expert so this is only a guess.

Agreed. The intended implication was that the breakdown was caused by contamination. The reason for this supposition is that a uniform rate of addition of contaminants tends to result in what appears to be a sudden breakdown, whereas ageing under clean conditions appears more gradual.

I think that US Citzens have been brainwashed and coerced into this 3-5000 oil change interval with non-synthetic oil products. We will never be able to change your way of thinking or the way you worry about your engines if an oil change is made later than this.....

Here in europe with modern car electronics, Longlife 2 & 3 oils, we can achieve well over 20,000 miles between changes (a minimum of once per year if that mileage is not reached). But we do think about the environment a lot over here.

My advice to you is to only use Synthetic from new, change the oil say every 15,000 miles, with the filter. Make sure that the motor always is at least on the minimum level or higher. You will save money, your engine will last longer with synthetic oils and you will reduce the amount of old oil that needs to be disposed of.

I little test to convince the fainthearted - take a piece of aluminium sheet, make two large dents near to each other with a large ballpein hammer, put a few drops of normal oil in one dent, a few drops of modern full synthetic oil in the other. Heat equally but slowly using a small gas flame from underneath - watch what happens to both oils. You will never use normal oil again.....

That is what is happening in your motor on hot days or days when the load is high for long periods!!!

A good oil holds the dirt from combustion in it and when the oil is replaced, all those nasty bits and pieces are also removed.

With normal oil, that stuff drops out and coats the inside of the engine and also lands in the oil pan, once it has settled, not all of it is put on the move again to the filter etc.....that builds up as a sludge, especially wear from white metal bearings. Engines that are badly designed or incorrectly used (or both!) also get too much water buildup in the oil, this forms another kind of oil sludge that can actually block oil ways in the block and starve important areas of oil, with no warning till something breaks. Synthetic resists that much, much better.

Whereas the synthetic tends to carry the minute particles (that the filter cannot catch anyway) along with it, the larger particles are transported quickly into the filter and caught - which is why with synthetic oil it is even more important that oil and filter are replaced at one and the same time.

I have never seen any form of sludge buildup in an engine run correctly on synthetic oil, not even with very high (above 200,000 miles) mileage.

So if you really want peace of mind, move to synthetic. Then drive 5 times the usual miles between oil changes like we do. Check the level relatively often till you know exactly what is going to get burnt or lost - in a good condition engine, the usage will be less than with normal oil, loss will be the same if you have leaks!!! In an engine on its last legs, there will be no positive effect I would imagine....no negative either, except probably extra cost.

Andy, if I had a car that was made in the 21st century, your advice would be well taken. But in my particular case, with stop and go driving, short trips that barely warm up the crankcase, and dirty driving conditions on older engines with small leakage, are conditions where oil that gets dirty faster and needs changing more often. Under these conditions I do see the oil in my older vehicles get dirty around 2000 to 3000 miles. I will also note that the oil level also starts dropping a quart low at that point also.

An engine operated for long durations at steady speeds in a clean environment could easily make longer durations between oil changes. And I understand that synthetics are less prone to breakdown, so I can believe you can get 15-20000 km between oil changes.

When I get a new vehicle with a well engineered and built engine I will probably spend the extra $10-20 bucks per oil change for synthetic oil. But as long as I am driving 1993 and 1997 vehicles with high miles and some oil usage/leaks, I will be cheap and use lower price oils and change more frequently. (At least the locations that change my oil do save it for recycling in industrial burners. Cement Kilns love used oils and waste solvents for fuels. At at a 2,000 degree F burning temperature the emissions are relatively clean.)

Ried

My vehicle is of similar vintage. It was designed to use oil at about one US quart in each 3000 miles, so that's not untoward. Provided that I never let it go below minimum and also ensure the filters don't get clogged, I don't see any problem before the 10k miles when the car goes in for other checks anyway; at that point I have it routinely (and probably unnecessarily) replaced. My typical trip is between 4 and 10 miles, though that only accounts for about half my mileage. The car uses 'semi-synthetic' oil (whatever that may be) and has done over 150k miles so far (it was used as a 'pool car' for my company before it retired - with similar variations in mileage).

Many non-synthetic oils discolour during the first thousand (or so) miles as a matter of course. If your engine is running cool for a significant proportion of this time, this would delay the discolouration - probably to about where you see it. So, are you certain he discolouration is due to contamination, and not just part of the built-in initial conditioning?

I have never heard of a car (90's vintage especially) that is "designed to use" or lose a quart of oil every three thousand...or even 10,000.... What car are you driving and how many true odometer miles? Had I purchased such a car new, it would long since have returned to the possession and ownership of the seller.

It did that from new. It was a known "feature" of the particular engine - all of that size burned between a litre and three litres between nominal service checks, but gave good MPG for the size, and were known to be durable. Many manufacturers at that time (early 90s) still had one or two such engines in their line. FYI, there has been no change in oil usage over the entire 150k miles so far. Like others of its ilk, the engine has been discontinued, in spite of being good in other respects.

----------------
I lurve mixed units

Hmm. Seems I missed that one. But I got to thinking...if it wasn't for your desciption of the engine as durable, I might have thought you had an MG. As I recollect, these cars ran motor oil both in the engine and in the gearbox...I think that's what is was.

But its plain...why they got good MPG...if you don't count the oil passing by the rings which was also burned. Obviously, such an engine would not be able to meet emmisions standards today; I don't think. Maybe that's the main reason it went away.

Mazda Wankel rotary engines use a bit, A friend of mine had a VW Golf (2002 spec) that used a lot and was informed by the dealer they all do that. Yeah right!

Andy, I would tend to agree with both yours and the responding posts. However, you must recognize that the driving environmental conditions, and driver habits are, on average, different in U.S. than in Germany where, for one, there is far more reliance on public transportation for local mobility. So, for example, when your post mentions large mileage accumulations between changes--but fails to mention passage of time between changes--it presumes that mileage is accumulated rapidly (as a factor of time driven)--as, for example, with autobahn driving.

Another consideration not mentioned in your discussion starter is the frequency of oil filter changes. Since it is true that a good full synthetic will have superior engine scrubbing and contaminant suspension qualities, it is also true that filters--especially premium filters--will entrap more contaminants passing through it--and faster. Therefore, greatly extending oil change duration intervals increases the prospect of diminished filter flow capacity, to the point at which (even synthetic) residue-charged lubricants might be bypassed around the filter and recirculated through the engine--so, eventually, deposition does become a possibility--or more rapid oil contamination--or diminishment of detergent effectiveness. Such an eventuality is, unfortunately, something which would not be perceptible to the vehicle operator. So, periodic filter changes (for which a quart/liters of synthetic will or might need to be sacrificed) between total oil changes is a reasonable precaution. Apart from that, as implied above, both mileage and calendar passage, must be taken into account to find the "happy median" most applicable to a particular driver's vehicle use habit.

Dear guest,

you should read what I wrote more carefully, I specifically mentioned that the oil and filter should be replaced as a pair, due to the way that Synthetic keeps the engine clean. Also, provided that the oild change is made at the correct point, there is no need to replace filters earlier. But at least that is a step in the right direction.

For people reading this who drive a relatively modern VW diesel engine (since 2000 aprox), or BMW since about 1988 (and several other manufacturers too), the motor management system keeps track of the oil change and the way the car is driven and how long etc etc and tells the owner up front when the oil needs changing. All the cars that I have owned with this type of system allowed me to over run the old fashioned interval by a factor of between 2 & 4 !!! None of these engines was ever in any way damaged or needed work to repair such damage!!!

Which tells me that the oil change for engines without this feature errs dramatically on the side of safety, cars mentioned often in this Blog (for the car manufacturer, not the user).

My thoughts are that you can take the usual 3-5000 miles and double it without doing anything else different provided you do not drive like a lunatic for long periods. (The US police will soon put you in jail if you do anyway!!! Come to Germany for autobahns without limits!!!)

Furthermore, if you use good Synthetic oil, you probably double it again......at least. You are still not getting anywhere near the mileage we achieve with our inbuilt oil monitoring......I am also not a slow driver on the Autobahn and each year i knock up 10,000 KM or more with a very heavy trailer. None of which seems to reduce the life of the oil....at least not enough to notice dramatically.

I do not believe that the "rest" time between driving plays much of a role in improving the oil, in fact the reverse, I believe the oil ages whether you drive or not, which is why there is a minimum of one oil change a year, even if you do not get the monitor to request an oil change.....

Even though I am retired, we are driving about 30,000 KM per year. Before I used to notch up between 40-60,000 KM per year when working.

I sincerely believe that the oil companies have sucessfully brainwashed the American Public to line their own pockets and from their point of view - who cares about that or the environment! They have done a remarkable solid job on you Guys and nothing can shake your belief.

It needs a few brave souls from CR4, who have high mileage vehicles, without heavy oil usage (almost a contradiction in terms when using normal oil !!) or leakage, to be brave enough to test the theory for us all:-

a) only use synthetic oil

b) to at least triple his mileage etween oil changes, quadruple would be better. Change filter only with the oil.

c) document the whole exercise on CR4 for all of us to read.....

Maybe we can then undo the brainwashing for a few brave US folks!!!

NOTE

A few points that I have vever mentioned before, aircooled engines should not be used for such testing of synthetic oil and anyone who uses oil that has been "recovered" is living on borrowed time anyway if his engine is still running should not make the test either.

That sort of oil is the very worst (maybe 'best' is better English!!!) to quickly finish an engine off whether new or old. Its lubricant and cleaning properties have all been used up. Its also a mixture of many oil types and sometimes small amounts of hydraulic oil get also mixed in with the rest.....what can you expect?

As you wish....

Regret that this topic seems to push so many buttons with you.

Suckered American.

Actually the only button that gets pressed for me are the environmental costs for this smll planet, what it costs YOU Guys in YOUR pockets in time and money, is for me secondary......but I always try and be exact and helpfull.

It would appear that the brainwashing is so complete, that nothing will change it either, sad really! Money could be saved, engines could last longer, time could be saved.

"You can lead a horse to water, but he must drink on his own......"

But thanks for your kind thoughts. Have a great day.

There is a long way to go to convince people to change oil less frequently in thier automobiles here in NA. People freak out when I tell them that I often go 7000km before changing oil in my truck. This is in severe driving conditions of extreme cold (today it is -30C) and plenty of dust on gravel roads and I have a lead foot (I love the autobahn! - I'll be there next week.).

However, I think that there is a move toward using less oil in industrial equipment. In our older tractors, the original manufacurer's spec's were to change oil every 100-150 hours. The newer ones reccomend 200 hours. If we use the maufacturer's (John Deere) brand of oil, they say you can increase that by 50% without affecting the warranty. This is a huge improvement in oil consumption when you consider that some of these engines hold 5 to 7 imperial gallons of oil.

Wow, that is a substantial increase and of course the environment thanks you (and John Deere also!)

This would tend to agree with what I have been saying all along too.......apply that to cars and you can see where I am going!!

I somehow feel though that for the rest of the US, there is no possible hope of getting anyone's Brain, 'unwashed' - so to say......it is simply to little too late. The oil wells will have to dry up before anyone does anything to change their attitude.

Even in the 1970's I was shocked at the way oil was used in the USA (petrol too of course) with your 7 liter 8 cylinder gas guzzlers, nothing has changed much really since those days.....

I had hoped that the regular import of Japanese & euopean cars would help you Guys to change......

Have a great weekend.

Let's see now. That would be 4349.59 miles for us ugly, brainwashed U.S. Americans. Not so much different than the older 3000+/- standard for auto's; and certainly within the more recent (world wide) mfr recommended ranges for most cars. So it seems you might have proven the exception to the (brainwashing) rule by proving the rule itself? This is not to say that engines are not sometimes tolerarant of neglect of oil change: some more, some less. But, whereas U.S. Americans might be less astute than some others, they are also quite practical: many are aware that, even decades ago, car engines could be given extended lifetimes--even hundreds of thousands of miles (and decades) by frequent oil changes, sometimes as frequently as once a month! (Conversely, virtually no cars survived the first hundred thousand, under normal use, changing at the mfr recommended intervals or less.) And, perhaps, that practicality extends even to the Deere producers, who recommended the 4350-to-6525 mile oil change schedule for your truck--and who also, no doubt, recommended the Deere-branded oil as well. (Surely a Canadian--or Deutchlander--would not be so brainwashable or advertisement susceptible as to believe that Deere actually manufactures its own oil! Or that the oil on which it puts its brand is altogether different from other, premium oil brands?

Now, just in case Herr Andy's post obscured the intended meaning about oil filter change periodicity, let me repeat: that with greatly extended oil renewal periods (that's much more than your 7000km, and probably much less frequently than, say, 6 months or less (assuming you are an average engine consumer)), it is not unwise to change filters not only at time of oil renewal, but also halfway (or more frequently, depending) between oil changes. If the spin-on filter is mounted upwards or obliquely this will entail a small sacrifice to replace the oil in the filter; but that is better than the alternative.... Why? Because of the possibility that the filter (the one from the last oil renewal) will partially or fully clog due to extended Normal change interval during which more contaminant might have been suspended in the oil; suspended contaminants which are more likely with synthetics than petrol oils, and more likely with extended oil renewals. Does such a precaution always have its intended effect? Who can say? How could you know if the oil if being bypassed (blocked from going through the filter by the filter's bypass valve) at any particular time? Whether it is or is not would not normally be detectible. So, given the risks entailed with circulating unfiltered detergent oil, it can do no harm to take such steps to avoid the possibility--especially since greatly extended oil renewal periods with (especially) synthetics; and especially when, as is most freqequently the case, the engine was operated for a time with petrol oil before converting to synthetic use. As Andy or someone said already, an engine driven for a time on petrobased oils will be likely to have accumulated oil derived deposits--deposits which will be resuspended when the transition to better synthetics is made.

Now that last part leads to another benefit of synthetic use. Did you catch it? Yes, that's right: converting from petro-based to fully synthetic oil can serve to clean the converted engine of sudge deposits; and thereby extend the life and servicability of that engine! Again, attention to suspended contaminants and oil filter changes is a prudent precaution.

And, what about the idea of "prematurely" sacrificing a quart or so of expensive synthetic...during intermediate filter changes? Is there a benefit to offset the possible loss of up to 1/2 of the oils "investment" value? Possibly yes. As any detergent oil does its dirty work, the efficacy of its detergent is depleted--another reason for oil renewal...at some interval. So then, if the sacrificed quart of oil represents removal of oil which as been detergent depleted, replacement of that lost quart or so will, to a degree, bring about detergent replenishment! Where every little bit helps!

It would seem that you take insult to the discussion here. I mean no disrespect to Americans or anyone else, take it as you wish. I certainly don't mean to say that Americans are any more or less brainwashed than us Canadians or anyone else. Furtheremore, I don't remember calling anyone ugly. ;)

I doubt that my truck example proves or disproves anything. It is only one vehicle and there are thousands of variables. I did say that my truck(F150) is used under extreme conditions, which (as stated by others) shortens the life of oils. Ford recommends 8000km(5000 miles) oil changes for normal use, and 5000km (3000miles) under severe duty. So yes, I am within the normal duty range but above the severe duty range. I usually change oil based on observations of the oil rather than relying entirely on the odometer. Occasionally I have changed at 10,000km(6000miles) or more with longer road trips. The point is that people in general just follow the 'change oil at this odometer reading' sticker placed on the windshield by some garage worker rather than look at the condition of their oil.

I don't use Deere oil in my truck - I am not so brainwashed. I can't say for sure what life expectancy there is for my engine but my brother's F150 truck with similar treatment made 400 000km(250 000 miles) before needing a camshft. The bottom end is still good with excellent oil pressure and it is still in use. Maybe the camshaft would have lasted longer with extra filter changes or better oil, maybe it's former life in the Alberta oil fields did some damage - who knows.

Perhaps it is worth a test, to see if changing the filter is justified. When you remove a filter, is there any way to test if it is plugged? It would be nice if filters had an indicator on them to tell us when they are full and bypassing. If I knew the filter was full and the look and feel of my oil didn't justify changing, sure, why not change the filter. If it is time to change the oil and the filter is still not full, there wouldn't be any point to changing the filter earlier would there? Perhaps it is only out of ignorance (or am I too lazy?) that I keep the same filter on until oil changes. Maybe those European cars that tell you when to change oil are also measuring oil pressure at the filter, thus determining when it becomes plugged.

Of course Deere oil is not manufactured by Deere, and there are likely other equivalent oils (perhaps better) out there but if you want the engine warranty then you'd best use their oil. Their claim is not so much that the oil is better, but that their additives (Molybdenum for one I think) are specifically designed for longer oil change intervals. Maybe it is BS, who knows. Given the expense of replacing/repairing of a 400Hp deisel engine I don't care to push the oil life much beyond what the manufacurer recommends. I am happy that they have extended their recommendations.

I have noticed that with the partial synthetic oils, my truck starts burning oil sooner than with regular oils. Is the synthetic oil washing all the gum and tar from my rings and valve guides, causing oil to slip past?

How strange! First Andrew, that other fellow in this discussion, took umbrage when I agreed with his post for the most part, and added information which he misconstrues as disagreeing with his post, although nothing was stated that was contrary to what he had posted. Then, in order to clarify what I had said--it was about making filter changes between "normal," oil change filter changes--I posted what many might have taken as a humorous post, as a response to your post, a post also in which I did not disagree with anything you had said, but in which, in order not to give further unintended insult to Andy, I resorted to some self effacement just to let everyone know that, even if this oil thing is somehow a charged subject for some, I would prefer to discuss it in a thoughtful and considerate manner...to see what we might agree on as opposed to what we can't help ourselves from disagreeing on. But, instead of a reasonably anticipated cordial response, I find myself instead being perceived as taking things as an insult when in fact it appears that I am the only one not taking things as insults--the only one not so wrapped up in the topic. So, maybe we can get back on a more agreeable track if I just start with something we have not as yet managed to misperceive a reason to disagree about...

Yes, I agree that it would be nice if a filter could give an indication when it is bypassing oil, but I doubt that it would be feasible. A mechanical indicator on the filter itself would be situated in a position where it would not be readily visible--at least without a mirror, or modifications to the vehicle itself, to make it visible. A sender unit built into the filter would also not be feasible (for most average usages) as it would add considerable complexity (filters get very hot and oily) and undue expense to the filter, as well as impart lower filter reliability--and would also require modification of the vehicle. And, who would want the extra bother of trying to change such a filter; or extra expense of paying someone else to change it? Such a filter also would present a further risk, from a manufacturer's point of view, in that if the filter condition indicator (the filter sender or remote display) malfunctioned for any reason, or if the owner relied on the indicator to neglect filter or oil changes, the manufacturer could be placed in a position of liability. So, as we have mostly agreed--I assume this because it was I who first mentioned it--it seems the only practical and sensible alternative to more or less scheduled oil changes is to actually monitor the condition of the oil on the dip stick. Please understand that when I spoke of intermediate filter changes, I was speaking from the point of view that, even if the last bit of serviceability was not obtained from the (possibly prematurely) removed filter--even if the filter had not shut down and begun bypassing--both it and the small amount of oil needing to be added with its replacement would not amount to a large monetary outlay in comparison with the potential damage or degradation that could occur as a result of using synthetic oil too long...of having contaminant laden oil circulating again and again (through and/or around the filter and) through the engine; circulating it in such a manner where even though it had dislodged and/or kept contaminants suspended before, it might redeposit them again later (possibly in a more critical engine passage) on account of...the oil was used so long that its detergent/surfacant properties were no longer effective...and so long that a filter, especially a multistage or ultra fine filter, was either impeding lubricant flow (and with it engine cooling) or not catching contaminants at all.

Hopefully we agee about this. And hopefully it is now clear that this is not a subject about which I could easily be insulted--or easily enthralled--if at all.

Sk,

Oh yes, I forgot to say...

First I want to think about the questions in your post to see if there's anything that I could, or should, add. So please stand by. Also, I seem to recall seeing a spin on filter where the bypass valve is actually visible...at the truck supply where I buy RedLine synthetics for my pickup's engine and drive train. Since it's for use in freight tractors mostly, it is a filter I do not consider to be for "average consumer" use; and though I considered trying it (because it comes in the right size for my truck) I decided it would not be worth the higher price. I will see about possibly finding a picture of it for you to see. Okay? Okay.

I guess it is hard to read/convey the intended humour in simple text. I did try to indicate the humour in my first paragraph with the 'wink' ;) at the end but upon reading it I see how it could still be taken wrong. Indeed, there is no reason to get our hackles up over this topic.

Now that we have hopefully cleared the air, I look forward to any information you might provide on those visible bypass valves. It sounds like a good idea to me, but perhaps not for everyone if it is solely relied on.

Done that! 1989 Honda, 170,000 miles, runs on Cheap fully synthetic, been to Le Mans from the UK twice without a change!

I would not consider this with a similiar period Ford!

Hey Andy,

I'm running 0w40 Mobil 1 on my BMW which just turned 200k miles. I only change my oil every 10k-12k miles. Basically when the service indicator lights say too. I recently did a leak down test and the motor is still within factory compression range even after all these years. Personally when it comes to oil I think you get what you pay for.

stilljester

Do not missinterpret what I was saying with regards to Brainwashing, that is in the title of this Blog!! I was not intending to upset anyone and I am not upset at any of the comments either. This is a discussion Guys with different viewpoints to be aired. It is sad when people take umbrage for no reason whatsoever, it just colours the air wrongly.

My point is/was that in europe we can get a lot more mileage from a liter of synthetic oil, inspite of the high speeds (everyone agrees that this is hard on oil!), whereas in the USA, where generally (at least the law requires!) with mostly much lower speeds, you change the oil very quickly and seemingly have little interest in trying Synthetic oil for most cars.........

I do realise that other conditions like dust etc, can reduce the possible life of the oil, but in your major cities that cannot be much different to a european city and a lot of your farmland is difficult to see the difference to european farmland......all in all, I somehow suspect that the differences are not so great in that area. Have I missed anything vital out that affects oil life?

Assuming I have not for the moment, then I sincerely believe that US cars could, if you wanted them to, be driven a similar distance on a similar oil as we do........but seemingly few are interested in even trying.

I was very surprised at someone feeling that his oil consumption increased when using a partial synthetic, but this could have been an engine that was well past its best years and as the owner thought himself, the synthetic took off some of the piston crown coke that was doing the job of the worn piston rings and consumption increased. Put normal oil back which burns and leaves a residue (synthetic does not) and he got his piston crown ring of coke back.....

In this particular case, you would be possibly worse off with changing to synthetic. Whereas if that engine had been using only synthetic after the first oilchange, it would have been in a far, far better condition than that at the same mileage and usage.....and not even been halfworn out....just run in...

Upon reflection, as it is almost impossible to see in what condition a high mileage engine is without taking it apart, it might be better not to try changing to synthetic.....but after a good full rebuild, there would be no reason not to use it......CR4 has made me aware of a possible problem here, many thanks Guys.

By the way, bigend, smallend & camshaft bearings need quite different lubrication qualities in the oil than the cam lobes and the followers - a synthetic oil supplies both types of lubrication better than normal oil, especially with regard to cam/follower wear prevention.

The Guy who had to replace a cam in an otherwise good (truck?)motor is demonstrating quite clearly the limits for normal oil in this area of surface sheering. Normal oil has real problems here and the break down of lubrication in this area is usually in an engine that is otherwise well & properly maintained in all respects. Some engines are designed better in this respect anyway, so the problem is less apparent. Ball bearings rolling instead of just lobes and followers for example.

If I remember correctly, it is the polymer chains that get broken up, these are the chains that keep the oil film intact on a rubbing surface. I cannot personally think of another rubbing surface in most normal engines, but Felix Wankel (if he was still alive!)could tell you a long story about normal oil and Wankel engine vanes - rubbing action! It nearly prevented the engine ever being built, but it was still the bane of that engine and caused a short engine life. In the meantime, Mazda have managed to get things working better with more modern oil and design work...

We expect engine oil to work from freezing cold to far more than just boiling hot. To keep the engine clean and bring all the dirt into the filter to preven damage and to lubricate all parts fully, all the time......and if that is your expectation, then sincerely, synthetic is the best for this at this moment in time....in any car engine (in a good condition still!). Maybe tomorrow there will be something new and better!!

And I sincerely believe that you can forget Molybedenum, unless you run with no filter, as all it does is get lodged in the filter after a relatively short time. The idea is good though if the filter is not so good!! On a VW Beetle for example......

Andy,

I essentially did what you proposed after a discussion with a chemist from Exxon Mobil over ten years ago. I used to use 10W30 mineral oil with frequent changes (3000 miles). I switched to 5W30 synthetic and gas mileage improved 2-3 miles/gal. My change frequency is 10,000 miles or 6 months. I was told that one advantage of the synthetic is that it contains a more expensive detergent package which helps the engine run cooler. I agree that after-market additives are completely unnecessary. A lot of oil is being wasted with too-frequent changes.

Many thanks Mr Guest (Please join CR4 fully, its a lot of fun and it is difficult to sort one guest from another) for your input on this matter.

Basically you have just proved the point I have been trying to make that most others seem not to want to even try and understand, let alone actually put into practise!

Too much oil is being dumped in the environment (no matter where it actually lands!)and people are accepting higher engine wear & tear from using oils that should have gone out with the last Dinosaurs....

I thank you most kindly, maybe a few more brave souls will join the revolution because of your input and save both the environment and themselves money at the same time.

Guys, this is quite an interesting discussion! Just a few observations from down south (South Africa). We probably have similar situations to you up north - clogged cities/suburbia and open highways. We do travel fairly fast on the open road for very long stretches at a time, the 120km/h speed limit is more a guideline (Cape Town to Johannesburg = 1600km in one day is a regular trip for many locals). One major difference is that our winters are not nearly as severe as yours (-10deg C is the worst i've seen), another is that we have a lot of dirt roads. I'd like to know how the Aussies adapt oil usage with extreme heat, humidity and dust.

Our service intervals seems to be 15000-30000km depending on the model (petrol engines). Briefly, my vehicles did as follows:

• 1984 VW Jetta 1.6 - 10k oil changes, using no oil between services when sold @ 285k
• 1992 Nissan Sentra 1.6 - 10k oil changes, using no oil between services when sold @ 270k
• 1996 Toyota Camry 2.0 - 10k oil changes, using no oil between services when sold @ 259k
• VW Golf Estate 1.6 - 15k oil changes, using no oil between services until now (197k)

When I say using no oil, I mean less than 500ml/ 1 pint required. All oil changes involved changing the oil filter too. Also, this was using mineral oil - I understand that many of the high-tech vehicles are now specifying synthetic oil. I also see that many of the fancier cars tells you when an oil change is due.

With diesel vehicles, the high sulphur content of our fuel has meant that turbocharged diesels had oil change intervals of 5000km due to acid build-up. The fuel quality recently improved and diesel vehicles' service intervals are now up to 15000km, often requiring very specific synthetic oils in order not to void the warranty, and even proof of using specific fuel brands, otherwise you fall back on a 7500km oil change.

And BTW, my uncle ran his ±1978 Ford Estcourt(?) to 170000km without any oil changes - just changed the filter every 5000km and topped up when required. It was smoking like a steam engine if I recall....

Gideon,

Special decoration to your uncle, and some few hundreds millions like him, that for saving few Dollars (Rands in your case) are contributing to the world concentration of not only carbon oxides, but solid Sulphore particles as well.

God bless you all.

Wangito.

My 2001 BMW K1200RS came from the factory with synthetic oil in the sump. At redline the piston surface speed is around 80 feet per second. I would have to think this is F1 territory. I have driven for extended periods of time (1 hr plus), with the pistons travelling at around 60 feet per second. I have over 74,000 miles of hard use travel on that engine and have never had a problem with viscosity breakdown. The cams still look great and the compression remains @ 94% of where it was after it was broken in. Synthetic oil does what it is supposed to.

From me to the several Gentlemen who have as we say in the UK "Put their money where their mouth is" and not only supported me with regard to this Blog and Synthetic oil, but also placed their faith in it and driven large numbers of miles with no problems.......in fact their engines will last significantly longer as a general rule, so savings service costs, longevity and reliability......which was the whole point all along anyway!

I hope your efforts are not lost on all the other CR4 readers, most of who probably drive low mileage, relatively new cars that could go a lot longer (in both senses) with synthetic oil in the sump.

Those of you with high mileage engines, it may not be quite such a good idea unless you do an engine rebuild at some point, then it would pay you to do the same!

Thanks to all contributors from both sides of the fence, it was very interesting to follow this Blog.