Ship Breaking

Good thinking. Only they use everything that floats to leave Haiti. US coast guard and the Caribbean have their hands full with refugees or "immigrants" from there. Anchoring will not prevent it. I think the problem there is a lot more complicated.

Thanks for the reply.dvmdsc

I know of the complications or think I do. Giving in to complications is not the answer but naming them in detail is asked for. I am sure the people on the ground are doing just that but it takes more than lip service. That is what I am doing but at least I have learned from what I have seen and heard and am not happy with the solutions presented.

It will take a long time to heal the wounds and get back a state of normal affairs, which the people of this island have never experienced. Not to late, ever. Now is a good chance to clean up the mess and go for it. The eyes will soon be off this location and the better we educate about the possibilities the better they will understand that we do mean well and are not after their country but after them becoming a part of a world that shows true compassion.

If I only could do more, Ky.

I brought ships up in the Shipping Container thread because they are one of my pet ideas.

Fema actually did lease at least one as a living place in the case of New Orleans and Katrina.

I think the Queen Mary, is parked in San Diego? LA? and the Queen Elizabeth? in Dubia.

Same as Shipping Containers, using ships for shelter, holiday hotels is done.

There are prison ships parked in the Hudson river in NYC, at least there were when I lived there. There was also an old Ferry docked that people lived on.

Some people live on their boats in Marinas all over the world.

It is definitely doable.

Berthing ships are desirable for living spaces, as a type. Really I'm all for it. There is probably somebody in Greece that has some they are already trying to sell to the UN for use in Haiti.

Far as Haitians and how and where they want to live, there is an awful lot of evidence stretching back decades now that many do want to get away from the place. I hear that Haiti is about the size of Maryland. What's the population of Maryland? Prior to the Famine, or Starvation of the Irish, their population was about the same as Haiti's is now. I think the current population of Ireland is now about 4 million.

I like the idea of using ships as homes or hotels, and have long ago discussed it.

As homes or hotels they have some advantages.

I looked at what it costs to buy those that are for sale.

I looked at the numbers of people they might shelter.

I considered all factors, and put them on the back burner.

I am for evacuating as many people as possible from Haiti though.

In fact I'd recommend reducing the population dependent on Haiti, by half.

Currently I am recommending that all relief supply ships, and water delivery planes carry away on them refugees from Haiti.

I continue to recommend that from Atlanta they go to Louisiana where they can speak the creole language and have some common culture, as well as experiences related to events of Katrina, and the Haiti Earthquake.

I'm figuring that dollar wise sending water by plane and all that to doom people to continued poverty and squalor, is not a good idea.

The US would probably be better off if it simply bought Haiti and got more soldiers as the UN uses Pakistan as a manpower pool for their PeaceKeeping force.

As far as Working Class Street Cred, I have cut ships apart, and been down in a dark that cannot be darker mopping up diesel fuel way below the waterline.

Do not go down into a dead ship, without a flashlight.

P.S. To anchor them on beaches pile drivers and steel beams are what you do to park 'em. There does appear to be some time when just hanging around in the port or Port-au-Prince is not recommended. We may want to speak to some sailors to get the real deal story. DOD, Department of Defense used to just sell more, but now things are tighter. Old liners are available, and relatively inexpensive, but it's sort of a thing since 30 years ago there were more of them around in better shape, but it is long since they really had any world.

Personally I want an aircraft carrier.

Thanks Trans, good to hear from you.

Let me reply, now that I have done my chores and have a bit of time up my sleeve.

I like the idea of using ships as homes or hotels, and have long ago discussed it.

As homes or hotels they have some advantages.

That must have been before my time but this is now and I would like to continue bringing my idea forward, even if it would be carved in stone, somewhere. These advantages ad up, on rough estimates, to be at least 16. I have also done a bit of research on the availability and price of such and transporting water in planes just knocks me over. One way ticket for the manufacturers of bottled water to make a killing.

In fact I'd recommend reducing the population dependent on Haiti, by half.

Now my friend, if this would have happened here, Dog forbid, and someone would suggest this, to help us out and place us were it is convenient and cost effective but otherwise really 'over the top of our heads' decisions, we would be up in arms. I believe that the real locals just want to stay were they are and get a chance to prosper, with our help and not be made victims of the fleeting history of decision makers. They would become slaves to fantasies of do gooders.

Even taking all the difficulties of language and other obvious discrepancies into account, such a move would be disastrous in my eyes. Braking up family structures, were they need mending most, is just shooting down all good incentives that have and will arise in the future, if supported by us. Bottom line, if it would happen to me, I would stay and form strong groups and sort the good doers out and tell them to leave my sister and her kids alone. 'We are family' has to be the message, not get out of here and become victims in a world with no future.

I'm figuring that dollar wise sending water by plane and all that to doom people to continued poverty and squalor, is not a good idea.

This is covered in point 5 of my suggestion. All ships, however bad condition they are in, will have water storage facilities or easy repairable systems to keep the water at potable quality. Why build new ones that could be subjected to all kinds of mishaps when they could come with the quarters, the place of abode. This is the case with all the other points I mentioned and as you say, you have mentioned in the past. Then why not follow up on it and buy a fleet and send it there. No, not empty but full of donated goods and hands on helpers.

The US would probably be better off if it simply bought Haiti and got more soldiers as the UN uses Pakistan as a manpower pool for their PeaceKeeping force.

PEACE MAN!!

To anchor them on beaches pile drivers and steel beams are what you do to park 'em. There does appear to be some time when just hanging around in the port or Port-au-Prince is not recommended.

I am not sure were you picked this up Trans. I never mentioned ships any where specific. They could be placed at whatever strategically, well worked out positions and would not be subjected to high tides as much as they would be around here. They could be serviced and maintained by small rowing or motor driven boats. Why put them in one place, were you have all the potential troubles that you are mentioning.

It would make it a coastal community, that is right, but who cares if they have the 15 other points in place, which could guaranty a worth while start of a new life in their home country. I know that they love their cricket and that they not only like it. Suggesting to brake that apart is just not thinking it through. If you would take my star batsman from me, to settle in Dreamlandu, I would be on your case in no time at all. You can replace the bats man with any other person if you like. A competitive, well meaning person will always find his/her place in any kind of team

I would make my stand and tell you to go somewhere and do something nice to your body. No way you could implement that Mate, no way known and we should not get all our heads in the sky but remember we are talking about real people here with real families and friends. Most of them still mourning.

Personally I want an aircraft carrier.

Yeah, one of those could supply the whole island with power but that power does not come for free. It has to be earned in some way shape or form. That's what Governments used to do when they cared about their people. Bloody hopeless it seems but the world will go on with or without good intentions.

If I can contribute to a family intact, I would prefer it to a family or friends split apart and not given the chance to stand up for a life and society which they might want to stand up for. I forgot to mention schools on board those ships, shame on me.

I will outline further thoughts once I get more responses to my suggestions.

If you buy 2 get one for free? I would, Ky.

Haiti is in the hurricane zone. Each year they have damage, landslides. Whole Armadas sunk in that regio. Haiti happens to be a dangerous place for more earthquakes. No money has been invested in solid structures, buildings, economical, political. I think the world needs an overhaul, a rethinking of population, travel and political structures. A new development plan and strategy.

KY-

This is an excellent concept, even though there are issues that would require addressing. The ideal scenario, in my mind, would be a fleet of these vessels, preloaded with emergency relief supplies, dispersed about the world in strategic locations.

The biggest issue I see with this is the cost of fuel. It takes a lot of fuel just to maintain a ship in standby, and a lot of fuel to move it, and a lot of fuel to operate all of the water systems and waste treatment systems and power generation systems and whatever other systems you want to include. Also, one needs trained operators for these systems, and this is not inexpensive. The cost of the ships themselves is not going to be the major impediment- it is the maintenance, operation and manning of these vessels that needs to be addressed.

I do not believe that it is feasible to wait until the next crisis strikes to start thinking about accumulating scrap ships. One needs to have them ready to go when crisis strikes.

Once they are on site, and the crisis is over, one could simply beach them and leave them as a present to the local population, to do with as they will. Cut them up for scrap? Turn them in to hotels or factories or residential facilities? Anything is possible.

Thanks to all for the replies

Charles

I considered all the points you are putting forward and agree that trained personnel will be of utmost importance. And fuel to get there and stay, as a functioning unit will be needed. This will be the fuel needed in any case, on land or on water. Just, that on water, you have less friction in many areas.

My thoughts are more on the issue of creating a space were people (natives and volunteers) can feel safe and get to a place after work were security becomes less of an issue. Imagine working all day and coming "home" and be attacked by some disgruntled dude and being forced to do things one would not want to do, like handing over rations.

Just keeping up security will use more fuel on land than keeping a ship and its valuable functioning assets in working order, not to mention getting things from a to b. by using small boats.

Whatever the final solution to the misery might be, fuel of whatever kind will be needed, including the strongest fuel of all, which is determination to do something and not to filibuster about a whole country in deep, deep trouble.

If I would be in such a situation, I would demand of my leaders, to at least give me the peace to eat my food and put me in a position to start from scratch and not be molested by destructive forces who have ruled this land for far to long. They have to be put in there place and separating the good from the evil will help.

The price of fuel comes in as so secondary that it is an insult to even mention it. To the willing participants of an up and coming Island in the Caribbean the cost of fuel should not even rate on any bean counters table. This is not aimed at your comments but is aimed at the people who have received hundreds of millions and who knows were those funds are diverted to?

Thank you for your response. I will now get to responding to other interested CR4rers.

Stay in touch, Ky.

PS: sorry for not editing, a bit raw, I know.

Hey Guys,

Something you guys ought to consider about these old ships. Something that hasn't been discussed yet: Many are environmental time bombs with becoup asbestos and heavy metals present and scattered throughout the ship.

That is why the US Navy spends mega dollars cleaning up the ENTIRE interior of their ships prior to sinking them to make artificial reefs.

Good thought, but bad idea...you'll undoubtedly make a lot of Haitian sick in the long term due to all of the toxins present, so I suggest dropping the idea of making the old ships into floating havens....more like barely floating hell holes!!!

Ah, well, actually, since I have worked at the job of ship breaking, well, ah, Captain Moosie is right.

I know he is right from doing the grunt work with diapers to soak up fuel oil, and cutting decks apart, and loving the idea of using old ships for more than scrap.

-One of the reasons I just wanted to park them in the sand on the beach, since they are just not even as useful as a shipping container by the time they are done for their purpose.

As a worker, my street crede really does rest on the fact that I have worked at ship breaking. It is a terrible and dangerous job.

I of course, sort of liked it.

However it is really really dangerous.

That's why I recommend parking hulks in the sand to strip out and renovate.

That's why I put the whole idea on the back burner, since it is fraught with every risk you can imagine, and is a economic disaster if you know what the numbers are.

Here is the truth about me. I have pet ideas, and ships on the shore are one, but while I can afford to spend some money on cats without hiring an accountant, buying ships is something I won't do unless it makes sense, money.

Give me 500 thousand dollars worth of plywood and Black and Decker screw guns and screws and I'll make more shelter than possible if you spend 1.7 million on a junked ship.

P.S. I'm for explosives to make fast the foundation leveling problem. I'll put a prayer on my site within two days. Prayers are more difficult to write than poems, since God is the editor.

Gee Ky, you've attacked me and Captain Moosie. That's sort of cool considering our history.

Last week sometime I went over to BBT and reflected on my flaws, and how what goes around comes around, so I deserved a few lumps for some of my posts similar in tenor to yours towards me here.

Others in this thread have pointed out many of the reasons Ships are problematic as shelter for Haiti.

I even said it was a "pet idea" of mine, and that I like it, but I put it on the back burner for reasons of practicality.

One of the reasons I looked into how to secure a ship using steel pilings driven into the sand of a beach had to do with realities of even getting on and off them.

There are ocean liners for sale that might work, and there are some berthing ships maybe available, though last I looked I didn't see any for sale.

The idea of using ships for shelter is alright, as it does no harm per se. However it will not work for but so many people, and is certainly not the end all and be all solution to the problems in Haiti.

I wouldn't call it an attack... just common sense guidance.

Chris

ps.. what is BBT? I know what bbw is.. but you went there..I don't wanna know..

The Bath Breaking Technique.

I started my study of the alternative uses for ships as hotels 15 years ago.

I brought it up in the course of the shipping container thread.

I've actually worked at ship breaking.

Even said I had it coming.

Said I love the idea, and know how it could work.

Told y'all what ships to look for to make it work.

Didn't get into the order of things again.

Trans

I think I have found the source of all the confusion. What a waste of time!

So are you blaming the confusion on me?

You titled the thread Ship Breaking.

I don't think the discussion is a waste of time. Otherwise I wouldn't have spent the time on it I did.

I love old ships, and new ones too.

I've spent a good deal of time over the past 15 years researching how they might be used.

Our disagreement is that you want to turn them into forts, and I say they would best work as UN offices and a market tourist destination, as far a Haiti is concerned.

No Trans, not you personally but your words were the first to mention ship breaking there. Maybe that is what caused the confusion in Moosies mind. If I find a flaw in something I go back to the potential source and do that with anything I deal with. How else could I clear up such a situation?

Your contribution is much needed and your hands on experience, even if hell holes (not sea worthy ships) would be the aim of this enterprise. I will get back to this but have other, more direct and real adversities to deal with at the moment.

One of them is that cyclone Uliu wants to take a chunk out of us and in any case we will have power failures which happens at the worst time imaginable. Just can't win a trick at the moment. Please Russel, bear with me and once I have my plan of attack better out lined your skills and experience will be much needed.

If you don't hear from me I am not gone but just restricted in my online activities by matters beyond my control, Ky.

All US Navy ships were rehabbed and the asbestos was removed by the late 1970's. even the old WWII cruisers.

The ship I worked on scrapping had asbestos on it. It had been a dredge ship, so maybe it wasn't exactly US Navy. Eventually it was sunk to make an artificial reef.

The asbestos was dumped into the river, which supposedly due to being wet rendered it harmless.

Far as the industry of ship breaking, it is hardly done in the US for regulations make it about impossible to make any profit. Mostly it is done in India. Friend of mine knows a guy in India whose business is shipbreaking, or scrapping. Think he loses to fatal accidents something like 5 guys a year. While I was doing it 2 guys in Wilmington on nearby docks got killed.

That isn't necessarily a reason to not do it, as fact is people get killed at all sorts of jobs, or driving to work, or walking across the street.

Might be an industry for Haiti considering exchange rates and all, but that is a bit different from buying one in good shape and docking it for Haitians to live on as if it were a fort.

Trans

I think I have found the source of all the confusion, Ky

G'day Skipper

Good thought, but bad idea

Well my supreme leader, I don't think so, at all! Please give me some more time to detail my plan of attack and please don't treat me like some effing juvenile who has never known respect for real authority.

It has now been cleared that a more "not filibustering' approach is needed and not some unqualified generalizations of the situation. A clear plan of attack is needed here and I am getting sick and tired of some participants grandstanding and seemingly enjoying being of importance.

I have read every comment you have made in the container thread and repetitive recognition of your former strong positions lacks credence by now. No insult meant here Mate, just being realistic and putting in a complaint to my commanding officer.

Now, what would you do, if you were there, without sufficient security. I betcha Mate you would want to be on the ship that is just a mile off the coast. Maybe one day we could have a drink on one of those and delve in the past. I'll be in charge though, Ky.

PS: I should have edited this one, or wiped it out completely, but a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do.

Ky,

After looking around a bit, I can see that shipbreaking is an environmentally sensitive issue. While your plan seems brilliant at first glance, one would have to be careful not to leave the beaches of Haiti with the burden of disposal of rusting hulks full of toxins, that can't be transported to other locations.... "Temporary often has a way of becoming permanent."

I do think that in this regard Haiti might consider shipbreaking as an industry, that might provide much needed income, but they would have to have some additional infrastructure that might be even more difficult to maintain, in terms of recycling steel.

here are some of the links I found.

http://www.environmental-expert.com/resulteacharticle.aspx?codi=6415
http://www.greenpeace.org/india/campaigns/toxics-free-future/ship-breaking

You should know that governments, especially the US government and navy pay close attention to what the RAND organization has to say. (this document is actually one they paid for) While this has a price tag listed, if you look further down, it also has links to all the pdf's.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1377/index.html

It may be that this would have to be examined on a ship by ship basis, to ensure that the ship doesn't pollute or become a burden.. given a green flag, the ship idea would be an extremely helpful addition to the situation. In terms of value, this is a very intriguing 'swiss army knife' idea, which can offer a great array of options. the bigger the ship, the more help provided.

I rate your thread 5 stars! way to go!

Chris

Hi Chris

We spoke on the phone today so you know what I am on about. Thanks for the support you are giving to this dilemma and it will not be in vain. Like I said, you will need strong (mentally and physically) participants in such a situation. This, introducing ships, will not jeopardize any existing plans on land but they will have a base (fort) which is easy to protect and could provide for all of the 16 (including schooling, 17) points I have put forward.

SAFE HAVEN DURING RECOVERY!

That's all I am asking for, Ky.

PS: Less time less editing, sorry.

Yes this will certainly help the situation, every little bit helps.

As others mentioned extreme weather can cause serious concern of shipping etc. but most often alternatives are available with advanced notice too.

Thanks ky...

All though Your idea is good and for a noble cause, I believe it would take a herculean effort to put into practice. I believe the population of Haiti is over nine million, more then one million in port-au-prince alone. I understand that the entire population would not be put on board ships but even if You put one million on ships You would need one thousand ships if each could house one thousand people. How long would the people be kept on board? Would they be able to come and go as they please? Each ship would have tobe run as a small city in its self which presents a whole lot more problems. I don't want to throw a wrench into Your idea , but Your list of all the good things that would justify doing this can be offset by a list of bad things that would not justify doing this.

On the plus side its better then doing nothing at all. Also to add to Your idea if it were implamented would be to have the cruise lines run the logistics of providing food, laundry, ect. they are quite adept at doing this.

oilcan13

Hi Tom

I did reply to your comments with a GA but these are kept anonymous on this site. I hope this admission helps to get even more poison out of such a potentially constructive thread.

All your points have been taken in and are to be considered once I can make a rhyme out of all the information which will hopefully be coming in during the next few days.

Thanks belatedly, Ky.

Ky,

After thinking the problem through some more, I think an older cruise ship could be used to house & feed all the engineers, civil afairs folks, contractors, etc. that will be required to rebuild the country. Basically operate it as a floating hotel. The costs would still be high but I don't think there are currently any places for outsiders to stay and Haiti needs outsiders to help rebuild. The ship would need to be pierside to avoid many of the previously mentioned problems/limitations with movement of people and provisions to a ship at anchor.

Good luck with the cyclone!

Cheers, Tom

Exactly that is my train of thought. But I am going to go a bit further than that but this will include setting up a complete new industry there. Again, to put this into a credible proposal, I will need more time. Enough half baked ideas (and fully baked ones) have been presented and what I am working on is a very multifaceted approach and will, if implemented, require Government support.

BTW, all and any drugs I take are prescribed and are the responsibility of the medical profession. It's no fun getting older and regretting to have played footy for too long. Just want to make sure it is understood that my source of inspiration is from an open minded source and not drug induced.

He who defends him self is guilty, I know.

Thanks for getting back to me, Ky.

ky,

My comment of a budding industry had nothing to do with ship breaking.

You're holding your cards close but I think I think we're on this same page.

Yes Sue, This is true.

Cruise ships are appropriate.

Sweet as Trans

Cruise ships are appropriate.

If working on a cruise ship is something that the locals would want to do, they could generate appropriate income and meet the goodwill of the volunteers first hand and tell the people back home that these hardworking dudes are really nice people who are not interested in ripping them off but there to help, no, really. Honesty, Mate, is a universal language.

I have said this a couple of times in the Container thread, that is, to leave more decision making to the locals and get out of their way after hours and let them and security on land take care of the rest. Fraternizing? Yes, but only on the ship. Other wise the place will go up in sweet smoke and nothing will be done.

I have also mentioned that a good, peaceful rest can be as important as food, sometimes. That is part of a bigger picture and I will take my time to get some figures on a real case scenario.

Once you have a fractal of something organic or some thing functioning at all, it can then just take on its own momentum/journey and multiply if the environment is right, or even half right and, in a few cases, even in a disaster zone.

Final adjustments have never not happened in any enterprise, even tying ones shoelaces has to be trained but once that little "pixel" is in place, it is smooth sailing for the knots of the future. Did I just mention training?

Starting off with an unfertilized field is a waste of seeds. This will take time but in general, I am counting on the participation of a huge youth movement that could travel the world by being part of a real life experience in humanity. Back packers with out boarders sort of a thing.

This beautiful Island, were I live, has greeted many completely well educated young people from all over the world and some of them would be more than willing to take part in a well organized paid holiday and make a difference. Statistice made up on the spot. Oh, insurance comes to mind!! Well..................................

The solution I envisage is on a much larger scale than just Haiti but introducing the same procedure (Fractal) any time something like this happens (close to sea), the same humanitarian principles and hard ware follow. The golden arches for catastrophes and with profit to be made on many levels, especially the bereft people. Equal "floating field" if you like.

See what we can come up with, regarding numbers and figures. As you know I could be out of power (electrical) soon, so don't hold your breath. Nothing wrong with a candle and pencil and paper though.

I had a bit of a day, so let me get back to you later, good talking, Ky.

.....occupancy rate...

Getting closer, Ky.

It is highly likely that we will see Cruise ships parked at Port-au-Prince prior to the commencement of the Rainy season, whether we do anything or not about it.

You can pretty much count on it for it is dictated by the options.

I'm interested in what Cruise ships, from what lines, were leased to Fema for New Orleans.

It is likely they have already called, due to their self interest.

It will be interesting to see which line, and which ships that the UN hires for their offices.

Obviously it will gain traction as permanent staff working in Haiti discover they can't build enough fast enough to replace the offices they worked out of there prior to the earthquake.

Trans, there were three cruise ships from Carnival: Ecstasy, Sensation, and Holiday. And the Scotia Prince brought down from New England. The latter is currently laid up in Bulgaria.

My only personal experience with the topic. During the 1998 Ice storm my ex-wife worked for a shipping line in Montreal. With 4" of ice covering everything power was out to 95% of the city and traveling more than a block or 2 (on foot only) was next to impossible. Her company docked one of their ships in the Montreal port, a short distance from their offices and had snowmobiles running back and forth. This ship provided temporary housing for the essential staff required to keep the office manned during the emergency. Now it was a cargo ship not a luxury liner but it sure did the job for the dozen or so people who absolutely had to get to work. Must have cost the company a pretty penny though to have the ship idle.

Thanks for the evidence.

Ice storms are something. They happen around here in NC and knock out power too.

Think the last big one was in 91 or 92. If we'd not had a gas stove, it would have been much worse for us. To warm up the bedroom I boiled water in the largest kitchen pots we have, and set them in the bedroom.

Where we are is landlocked, so help from a ship is not gonnah happen.

Bet it did cost a good deal of money for the shipping company. What company is that, by the way?

Ever hear the joke? "What's the best thing about Toronto?" - "The road to Montreal."

I've got a friend here from Montreal, who just got divorced, I tell him he could get most any girl he wanted around here if he just speaks French to them. Really, he can say a few sentences in French to them, and they start to get a glazed pliant sort of look.

While English is the language of business, I have strong suspicions that French is the language of love. And wow, those women I've run across from Montreal, with multi colored eyeshadow long before it was at all thought of anywhere else, made my heart race.

The shipping company was Fednav.

Yes I miss the women from Montreal too, and since coming west I don't get to use my French at all which is a pity. Using it here doesn't make any friends with the animosity between Quebec and the rest of Canada. Silly people.

Here is a little info on that ice storm, there is also a "Disasters of the Century" episode about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_ice_storm_of_1998

http://windupradio.com/icestorm.htm

Nothing to compare to an earthquake but it was certainly an experience. Montreal is an island and the first things closed were the bridges. 3 million people and no way off. There was 1 powerline that withstood the ice and that was all that was supplying the water and phones for us. There were power company employees dangeling from helicopters in the worst of the storm trying valiently to restring the fallen lines.

I miswrote time by a decade. Was 2001, or 02.

Try it on girls., the French, not ice. I look forward to a report.

Puh-leeze. Harrumph. What a shallow, sweeping generalization, Trans.

What if I said my French perfume would drive all men crazy because men are a bunch of knuckle-walking Neandertals?

_{I'd probably get a nasty email from a knuckle-walking Neandertal.}

Some girls prefer a Scottish brogue or some Aussie-speak.

Is this off-topic?

I try it on my wife but just to annoy her.

She is from PA, speaks not a word of French and was so glad to leave Quebec after 5 years.

I took Parisian-based French for 6 years (Junior High & Senior High) and still to this day cannot understand a word a French-Canadian says! Apparently over the centuries, Cannucks have trashed the classic French language to the pint where no one but someone from Quebec can understand them!! *LOL* Last time I visited Montreal, my head was "spinning" by the time we left for home some 4 days later....many could speak the King's English, but for some stubborn rule of theirs refused to do so even when it is apparent that I understood, spoke and read French! ohh vie!!!

My sincere e apologies to you Canadians out there...I meant no malice...just an observation of sorts!

Due to economic recession cargo ship not in high demand and attached to shore power maybe be minor expense.

Take for instance the 150+ tankers anchored 50 miles out of Indonesian waters for the last two years...ironic that China is supposed to be sucking oil of the ground with a straw when those tankers are idle.

Tourism being down worldwide makes cruise ships more available.

What do you think...?

bwire

I,m still on the case and lost a couple of days due to cyclone preparations. I'll be back soon and still think that something can be done with second hand ships.

Talk to you soon, Ky.

great idea,but it takes too much power to make these ships function,too much fuel,labor, refurbish,granted some ships have sleeping quarters and small medical facilities. Some individuals are using shipping containers for housing, they are strong ,mobile,they can hook up power at little cost. Even in the US. some individuals are incorporating containers into neighborhoods and making them very attractive,I'm in the scrap industry in the US. and I know what and how they dismantle ships overseas it's criminal and they claim they are providing jobs. Bull,that is why we can't dismantle in the US. we have laws that protect the enviroment and human life India for example runs the ships aground and dimanles right there on the coastline,fuel spills,people losing limbs,all kinds of abuse to Human and the enviroment,it still continues monet talks and walks it's greed.

Fix this first. Then the rest becomes much easier.

http://www.slate.com/id/2246336/pagenum/all/

Thanks to all

I think this idea has run aground. People with more experience concerning this issue have made very valid points. Good to be reflected upon so quickly and with arguments that really count. 1000 ships for 1million people is a big ask and belongs in the realm of fantasy.

Thanks to all for getting this idea out of my system, looked to good to be true and it was. Maybe next time I should not be blinded by my euphoric willingness to help and take a more critical approach.

Godspeed to the people at the front, Ky.

Here is a converted barge capable of housing 160 workers and designed for the purpose. Last I knew it was for sale...

Something the more experienced folks in the nature of ships didn't say may still allow usage of ships in this endeavor.

Don't cave so easily.

The security factor can not be simply paralleled on shore.

if you google "Ship Breaking Haiti", this thread is the first hit.. so the idea is out there.. if any shipping magnates are searching for solutions, maybe they will find it and save the day.

_{^{{I also know that Ky is very judicious with his time, so if he feels something isn't going to pan out, he will focus on more fruitful areas of development.}}}

I don't see why this thread is even continuing regarding promoting ship breaking in Haiti, especially in light of health and safety issues, and deaths resulting from this type of criminal endeavor. Have you not seen the posting herein stating that its a huge mess. Have you not even considered the environmental fallout (literally and figuratively) resulting from the dismantlement of ships on a beach or beaches. Last year I saw a program devoted to this issue on one of the Discovery Channels (or was it the National Geographic Channel?) where they beach these old ships and the consequences resulting from those actions. One of the most important issues overlooked in d is the environmental aspects: contamination of the surrounding beach sand, the waters, the coral reefs, not least, the fish and other organisms. We are talking about pollutants such as heavy metals (chromium lead, etc., asbestos, oil and other petroleum products, fuels of all types, and PCBs. Once the damage is done it'd take a miracle to get it all cleaned up....in many ways, you'd be promoting the creation of a several mini-Love Canals (Niagara Falls, NY.... the FIRST Federal EPA Super Fund Site!!!!!).

I'm with Topcatter and several others on this one, kill off this Blog because it's just a very bad idea just for the sake of a few low paying jobs, long term disabilities and the lining of the pockets of a few wealthy fat cats, that'll result in a environmental disaster and lots of heartache for the Haitians.

Remember this, Haiti relies on a fair amount of Tourism for it's survival....and what tourist wants to see beaches littered with dead ships in the process of being dismembered and contaminated beyond belief!!!????

Also, by contaminating the fish life you are going to deplete the fish stocks as well as thoroughly contaminate the flesh and organs of the fish and crabs, etc that do remain, making them useless for consumption.

I honestly think some of you guys mean well, but you need to take a few Environmental Pollution refresher courses to finally get a real grip on real world problems.

Also, bwire your statement that all US Navy ships had their asbestos removed from them in the 1970's is wholly incorrect.Where are you getting your information from, a Cracker Jack box or something??? I just viewed a cable show not more than 4 months ago where the US Navy thoroughly cleaned out the old WWII US Navy carrier the USS Oriskany so that it could be sunk of the NC coastline to make it a new reef. The removed every type of pollutant you can imagine from the interior of that old warhorse, including ASBESTOS!!!!!!!!!! Before you type down something verify the facts everyone, because it's sort of taken as Gospel by the rest of you fellows for the remainder of the Blog thread.

Okay, let us see a showing of raised hands on how many of ya have ever walked through a USEPA Super Fund site before? Nope, didn't think many have.....not a pretty site, eh??, for the ones that have, eh?!!! Well I have on several occasions and in several different locations nationwide and every time I think back to those I get really pissed off at the arrogance and greed that helped perpetuate those hell holes....make ya want to line up the bastards that created them and make them drink and drink the contaminated waters, earth and biological entities! Lining them up against a wall and shooting them like the Gestapo or Waffen SS would in fact be too easy (lenient???) on them.

Enough said....please kill off this blog thread and find a better and more feasible project to help the Haitians!!!

'Onya Ky.

Cheers,

Stu.

Thanks bwire

Don't cave so easily.

My real and only excuse for not keeping my teeth in this is the lack of time I have to do further research and publish these findings and combine them with some still very encouraging thoughts in the back of my head, I have regarding the use of ships.

I also wanted to create a new thread and if possible keep fence sitting to a minimum. This is all happening not fast enough and soon we will not care any more unless we hear of some horrific storm hitting these poor people in the near future.

I could come up with plenty of good points but will have to leave that to a later stage and get it more presentable and worth while for some more experienced participants to have a look at. Not only the guys that know how a ship works but people who can deal with big ideas and not be put off by obstacles which will be there what ever is going to be done in the end.

I have also noticed that my reactions have been quiet rough, if not rude, to some and that is a sign for me, that I am emotionally too engaged. Not a good idea especially when there is so much at stake. More patients and tolerance is asked from on my side.

The security factor can not be simply paralleled on shore.

That is were I started to think about ships and soon recognized that with out it, potential volunteers could be held back because of fear to go there. Sure the old boys club will find ways to infiltrate but the chances of a good nights sleep on land is practically zero, or so I think.

Leave it with me for a while and I will get into some more details. It was said here that it will take a lot of money but I am thinking of even making them some money in the end. More later.

Caribbean Center for Disaster Relief.

Gotta go now, Ky.

This approach is rite on. If these ships are available as you suggest they could be on site in a matter of days any where in the world. Katrina, Sunnamies, earthquakes,whatever natural disaster occures next.

Whilst on the surface it looks like a good idea, it has been pointed out, and is true, that these ships will cost a motza to run. Convincing someone to cough up the moolah to do this will in itself be a feat.

The reason that the responses have been slow to date is because of the lack of funds to support this. Oh, I know big figures have been tossed around, but it's being done by those who have no idea just how difficult it is to make this dough in the first place.

If you're in the US, quite apart from any private philanthropy you might engage in, your taxes WILL go up as a direct result of Haiti. The government spends YOUR money. And there's only so much of that. Asking the cruise companies to contribute will result in higher costs for cruisers in the future, etc, etc.

J/P HRO and a very few others are the only ones spending their own money.

Everyone's looking for the biggest bang for the buck. Naturally.

Now, if there can be grown an industry in Haiti to establish a fund in trust, to supply interest funds to cary the project, there might be a thing. But it'll be a rocky road. A couple of posters have thrown this in already. Who's going to administer it so that it succeeds??

Stu. ps. There HAS to be a way, but I don't know what that is from here.

Just to throw out another idea (albeit a more outlandish one) that might resolve the security concerns previously mentioned while providing a stable offshore platform for housing:

http://bluelivingideas.com/topics/climate-change/future-business-created-sea-level-rise/

The Maldives are buying a floating island system from a Dutch company to replace the islands that are soon to be underwater as a result of sea level rise.

Creative thinking, BUT.....some serious questions come to mind immediately!

But what happens when the first Rogue wave or Tsunami or Typhoon hits the floating island? Does it get over-topped by the wave, or do the anchors get ripped to shreds or even pulled out of the seabed?? Things to ponder in the eventual design don't you think??? I just wonder how tall the highest part of the floating atoll will be above mean sea level?????? I'd think they'd need an automatic cable reel-in and spool system each tethered to the sea bead anchors???? let out and reel-in depending on the water surface level.......remember at the start of a Tsunami, the water drops down dramatically (by withdrawal of the water away from the beach, resulting in totally exposed unsubmerged seabed), then surges up to a great height!

Interesting.....possibly built like the Dutch floating houses semi-permanently anchored to shore of their rivers, canals, and lakes......those are an ideal model for Haiti that you y'all should be looking at..the reinforced concrete barges that the 2 or 3 story houses rest on!! Place the freaking shipping containers on the waterproofed reinforced concrete barges (that have additional Styrofoam bouyance installed).

You heard it first from Uncle CaptMoosie!!!!

while not directly related.. this is interesting.

237 us research vessels, 57 canadian research vessels, etc. complete details.

Though this maybe closely related and interesting as well...

Wow, it is happening.

Thanks Mate. See my reply to Chris. I'll take it in later. I think the first part of the seed has just broken through the surface. Lets see what others can contribute now that it is becoming clearer what needs to be found.

Obama is going to be visiting our country soon and if I see him I will take him aside for a couple of hours and give him a run down. You see, I would not be asking him for money but would like to be with a person who can think big and be able to reflect upon an idea excluding the "lizard" part of the brains. For that I would throw a few shrimps on the barbie but will not hold my breath. I hear he is not taking his kids, I'm sure they would love it. Me missus could show them Koalas in the wild and take them for a bush walk.

Thanks again, Ky.

Nice find Chris.

This should contain very good information for me to consider. As you know I lack the time to put forward a comprehensive approach but during brakes (mostly traveling) I think of it all the time. Once the idea has formed a critical mass (in my head) it will take no time at all to put every thing into context. It is more a logistical problem than any thing else.

The underlying theme will be:

How to help populations in need, with staffed ships, while at the same time not having to rely on donations and tax payers money and including the participation of the local population.

I thought that using the title "Ship breaking" would attract more participants. I know that is a bit entrapping but if I would have used the above title I would have needed all the information I am trying to gather here. It would have gone too far too early.

The ship breaking only comes into it to be avoided.

As you can imagine putting this into words and leave nothing to speculation, is a task for a team and a too large effort for me to pursue, at this moment in time. Although there is no time to waste one has to be very diligent and half baked solutions will not help at all. I know that getting it right first time is going to be difficult but possible.

Some American President once said something like. "If I had 8 hours to fell a tree I would spend 7 hours sharpening my ax", or something around those lines. (Any one know?).The seed idea has not even broken through the soil but has the message already contained in it. Using too strong fertilizer could kill of its further development.

Implementing it will take a major effort but the information in this (thanks again) will possibly contribute to putting interested parties together. The bean counters will have a field day! It seems to have worked for the pursuit of scientific research but I need to delve further into this.

I'm on the case, Ky.

Abe Lincoln: Give me six hours to chop down a tree, and I will spend the first four hours sharpening the axe.

Thanks Sue

Some American President once said something like. "If I had 8 hours to fell a tree I would spend 7 hours sharpening my ax", or something around those lines. (Any one know?

Abe Lincoln

a refresher of the Links to the Related discussions

The original thread Shipping Container Housing is over 1500 posts long

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/49244#newcomments

New Thread as a Compilation:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/52324/Alternate-Methods-of-Emergency-Housing-as-it-Relates-to-the-Crisis-in-Haiti

How to Install & Anchor Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50522#newcomments

Methods For Installing Doors & Windows In Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50523#newcomments

Drainage, Sanitation & Other Issues Related To Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50525#newcomments

Potable Water In Conjunction W/ Shipping Container as Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50537#newcomments

What Shelter Designs Work Using Corrugated Iron

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50850/What-Shelter-Designs-Work-Using-Corrugated-Iron

Scrap ships as housing

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/51898/Ship-Breaking

The new Blog started by Clemson University:

http://www.seed-haiti.net/?page_id=2

Bioneers Forum

http://connect.bioneers.org/forum/topics/alternate-methods-of-emergency

Please feel free to contact me should you need any help with any of CR4's features