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Earthquake

03/25/2010 5:09 AM

Sitting today in our office in Alabang (a Manila Philippines suburb) I experienced my first significant earthquake. The quake was 6.0 on the Richter scale and I was sitting on the 18th floor of the building, swaying pretty good!

So the question is:

Sitting on the 18th floor in a earthquake what is the best course of action?

1) Sit calmly and hope for the best?

2) Run for the stairs and get out ASAP?

3) Calmly walk to the stairs and start down?

We all sat calmly and hoped for the best, but I really wonder if the stair well might have been safer, and at least calmly starting to walk down seems now to be the best course?

What do you think?

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#1

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 6:35 AM

Parachute

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 6:42 AM

and practice base jumping.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 6:56 AM

Transcendental levitation?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 7:23 AM

6.0 on the 18th floor of a building you think that may have awaken some homesickness?

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 7:39 AM

It would for me although I wouldn't mind doing a stretch in Malaysia.

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#14
In reply to #1

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 3:45 AM

Having experienced a tsunami throwing me from the water-bed on the 19th floor during and earthquake 6.0

Parachute/para-sail first though comes to mind GA...

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#19
In reply to #14

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 11:41 AM

I was going to suggest avoiding those places Steve frequents but decided not to.

Otherwise, kudos to Dkwarner for posting that good advice. I have family living on the west coast of the US and Canada and sent them a copy.

I've only been in one unusual earthquake (1999) which was centred close to North Bay Ontario. It was caused by a rock burst and measured 5.2. The effect of being directly under it sent objects and people directly into the air and yet those who were a few miles away felt a high frequency swaying motion. Close by it lasted no more than a few seconds but further away the duration was considerably longer and much more pronounced in areas that were located on bedrock.

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#6

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 8:40 AM

A few ideas come to mind that might help make such a decision:

Do the building codes in that area provide a measure of earth quake protection?

Is there any published information on how fast a building collapses at different Richter levels?

Are there any studies on stairwells offering better protection?

Can you move your office to beside the stairwell without appearing a wimp?

How much will co-workers poke fun if you go down the stairwell and nobody else does. A live dog is better than a dead lion!

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#38
In reply to #6

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 4:54 AM

No, your co-worker will only make fun of you if you do:

  1. Scream
  2. Ask for your mother
  3. Turn to your same sex co-worker and tell them "I love You"

Seriously though, 18th floor, well I would wait it out then clamly go down the stairs after the rumbling stops.

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#41
In reply to #38

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 8:48 AM

Hello Oz,

Thanks for your approval: Stay where you are! This is the safest place on Earth for the moment! If you follow one of the known religions, please tell your God "be nice"!

Sorry! I personally don't scream because I let women to do it but I don't scream at women too, Gil.

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#7

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 1:10 PM

I don't know about the stairwell idea. I know getting outside is good but 18 flights of stairs may be risky. At 18 floors up, you might be near the top of the rubble heap, if the building goes down?

I have lived in earthquake territory but never experienced one, and never learned what to do in a high rise building. The emergency response we learned was to get under a desk. Getting under some sturdy furniture is a good idea, because the thing that hits you is when the ceiling above you collapses.

So I would suggest, the best response may be: stay put, get under your desk and wait till it's over before you move.

On the other hand, if the furniture is right, perhaps you could hold a desk over your head while runnning down 18 flights of shaking stairs.

Your office should definitely have an earthquake response plan!

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#8

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 2:08 PM

How about a Geronimo line.

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#9

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 8:06 PM

On this building, 18 is about half way up. Right in the middle of the rubble.

Sitting under a desk will be little help if the floors pancake. I still think in the stairwell there is less heavy material above you and you have a better chance.

Windows cannot be opened so Geronimo lines were not a real option. Off shore we have escape shoots that can be deployed over the side, some buildings have them as well, but not this one.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 8:58 PM

The integrity of the building for earthquake risk is the key. Did you see the difference in the damage, between Haiti and Chile. Yes there was structural damage in Chile but minimal loss of life for such an event. Really an engineering success story, they have strict building codes for that reason.

A really good stairwell sounds like a good thing to build into earthquake codes.

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#11

Re: Earthquake

03/25/2010 10:50 PM

My experience with big earthquakes suggests that there is no absolutely correct answer to this. Usually, in a mild quake, less than 6, let us say, all the action is over with by the time you figure out what is going on. If you are on the 18th floor of a building when a quake hits, the effects are going to be magnified, but how many flights of stairs do you think you could get down in 1/2 to 2 minutes? Essentially, by the time you have figured out what is going on, and taken time to consider the options, the action is over with.

Now, AFTER the quake is another story. You don't know how much damage has been done to the structure, nor when the aftershocks are going to hit.

So, the best thing to do is wait for the motion to stop, and you are still alive, then quietly and calmly evacuate, and don't go back in until someone you trust has said the building came through OK.

The time to worry about what the quake is going to do is before it happens...

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#12

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 12:56 AM

I spent 2.5 years in Chile, feeling an earthquake on average once a week. A year of that time I worked on the 12th story of a 13 story building, so I have an idea of what you experienced.

My response is: READ THE FOLLOWING.

EXTRACT FROM DOUG COPP'S ARTICLE ON THE: "TRIANGLE OF LIFE"

My name is Doug Copp. I am the Rescue Chief and Disaster Manager of the American Rescue Team International (ARTI), the world's most experienced rescue team. The information in this article will save lives in an earthquake.

I have crawled inside 875 collapsed buildings, worked with rescue teams from 60 countries, founded rescue teams in several countries, and I am a member of many rescue teams from many countries.

I was the United Nations expert in Disaster Mitigation for two years. I have worked at every major disaster in the world since 1985, except for simultaneous disasters.

The first building I ever crawled inside of was a school in Mexico City during the 1985 earthquake. Every child was under its desk. Every child was crushed to the thickness of their bones. They could have survived by lying down next to their desks in the aisles. It was obscene, unnecessary and I wondered why the children were not in the aisles. I didn't, at the time, know that the children were told to hide under something.

Simply stated, when buildings collapse, the weight of the ceilings falling upon the objects or furniture inside crushes these objects leaving a space or void next to them. This space is what I call the "triangle of life".


The larger the object, the stronger it is, and the less it will compact. The less the object compacts, the larger the void, and the greater the probability that the person who is using this void for safety will not be injured. The next time you watch collapsed buildings, on television, count the "triangles" you see formed. They are everywhere. It is the most common shape you will see in a collapsed building.

TIPS FOR EARTHQUAKE SAFETY

1. Most everyone who simply "ducks and covers" WHEN BUILDINGS COLLAPSE are crushed to death. People who get under objects, like desks or cars, are crushed.

2. Cats, dogs and babies often naturally curl up in the fetal position. You should too in an earthquake. It is a natural safety/survival instinct. You can survive in a smaller void. Get next to an object, next to a sofa, next to a large bulky object that will compress slightly but leave a void next to it.

3. Wooden buildings are the safest type of construction to be in during an earthquake. Wood is flexible and moves with the force of the earthquake. If the wooden building does collapse, large survival voids are created. Also, the wooden building has less concentrated, crushing weight. Brick buildings will break into individual bricks. Bricks will cause many injuries but less squashed bodies than concrete slabs.

4. If you are in bed during the night and an earthquake occurs, simply roll off the bed. A safe void will exist around the bed. Hotels can achieve a much greater survival rate in earthquakes, simply by posting a sign on the back of the door of every room telling occupants to lie down on the floor, next to the bottom of the bed during an earthquake.

5. If an earthquake happens and you cannot easily escape by getting out the door or window, then lie down and curl up in the fetal position next to a sofa, or large chair.

6. Most everyone who gets under a doorway when buildings collapse is killed. How? If you stand under a doorway and the door jamb falls forward or backward, you will be crushed by the ceiling above. If the door jamb falls sideways, you will be cut in half by the doorway. In either case, you will be killed!

7. Never go to the stairs. The stairs have a different "moment of frequency" (they swing separately from the main part of the building). The stairs and remainder of the building continuously bump into each other until structural failure of the stairs takes place. The people who get on stairs before they fail are chopped up by the stair treads - horribly mutilated. Even if the building doesn't collapse, stay away from the stairs. The stairs are a likely part of the building to be damaged. Even if the stairs are not collapsed by the earthquake, they may collapse later when overloaded by fleeing people. They should always be checked for safety, even when the rest of the building is not damaged.

8. Get Near the Outer Walls Of Buildings Or Outside Of Them If Possible - It is much better to be near the outside of the building rather than the interior. The farther inside you are from the outside perimeter of the building the greater the probability that your escape route will be blocked.

9. People inside of their vehicles are crushed when the road above falls in an earthquake and crushes their vehicles; which is exactly what happened with the slabs between the decks of the Nimitz Freeway. The victims of the San Francisco earthquake all stayed inside of their vehicles. They were all killed. They could have easily survived by getting out and sitting or lying next to their vehicles. Everyone killed would have survived if they had been able to get out of their cars and sit or lie next to them. All the crushed cars had voids 3 feet high next to them, except for the cars that had columns fall directly across them.

10. I discovered, while crawling inside of collapsed newspaper offices and other offices with a lot of paper that paper does not compact. Large voids are found surrounding stacks of paper.

Spread the word and save someone's life.... The Entire world has always experienced natural calamities so be prepared!

In 1996 we made a film, which proved my survival methodology to be correct. The Turkish Federal Government, City of Istanbul, University of Istanbul Case Productions and ARTI cooperated to film this practical, scientific test. We collapsed a school and a home with 20 mannequins inside. Ten mannequins did "duck and cover," and ten mannequins I used in my "triangle of life" survival method.

After the simulated earthquake collapse, we crawled through the rubble and entered the building to film and document the results. The film, in which I practiced my survival techniques under directly observable, scientific conditions, relevant to building collapse, showed there would have been zero percent survival for those doing duck and cover.

There would likely have been 100 percent survivability for people using my method of the "triangle of life." This film has been seen by millions of viewers on television in Turkey and the rest of Europe, and it was seen in the USA, Canada and Latin America on the TV program Real TV.

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 3:55 AM

Great advice, and GA

although I do not expect to have a need to use these guidelines,

this is triggering some thoughts: to be able to give advice may be of utmost importance.

Thank you

RHABE

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#22
In reply to #12

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 10:21 PM

wow. thanks for great advice, I will take it to heart if I'm ever in earthqualke country. This is the opposite of what we were told, like the children in the school who were crushed under their desks..

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#23
In reply to #12

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 10:36 PM

Wow DK, great article. Thanks now I will be better prepared if I ever experience it again...

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#25
In reply to #12

Re: Earthquake

03/28/2010 8:17 PM

So just for clarity, here is the Snoopes article on the above post....

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/triangle.asp

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Earthquake

03/28/2010 9:37 PM

Thanks Steve. Very interesting! I have to confess that I did not think to try Snopes or anything else to verify the validity of the Cobb article. It sounds so logical that I took it at face value. Apparently a lot of others did the same, for 16 people to give the post a GA!

I only read the Snopes article once quickly, and I've just come in from a fairly strenuous day's work outside. I'll read it again in the morning when I'm more alert and rested. From my one quick reading, and in spite of possible fraud etc., I believe Cobb's ideas do have merit. Hopefully I'll never need to make those decisions...

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#32
In reply to #25

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 10:25 AM

OK, I'm rested and more alert now. I re-read the Snopes article and several of the links therein. I see I misspelled Copp's name, he may be a 'self-serving opportunist', and he clearly exaggerates when he uses 100% for anything, but I remain convinced that his 'Triangle of Life' is a valid principle, in the USA as well as elsewhere. Habits are formed at school, so how young people are trained at elementary school is very important. Clearly most school desks are not strong enough to protect a child from anything more that falling ceiling tiles, which are hardly life-threatening. I'd certainly take my chances beside the desk instead of under it!

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#34
In reply to #25

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 1:56 PM

Hey Steve I think that you should look a little closer at the advise. There are a lot of controversy over it. Some of his advice has merit but a lot doesn't. Whats to say any of the structure items that you lay down beside are going to stay in place. Many of the cars on the Ca. freeway collapse where over turned by the shaking of the earthquake. Instead of being killed by the roadway collapse from above the road your car may land on you. Also in the fetal position you will be just like a ball rolling around you have no control over it.

The building in Turkey they dropped straight down. It was not a real test of the motions of and earthquake.

One article said his rescue crew when they showed up at the 9-11 disaster comprised of a film crew. There where some very strong comment by some of the fire chefs on the scene about him.

Just think you should dig a little deeper before following all the advice.

http://www.earthquakecountry.info/dropcoverholdon/Petal_on_Copp.pdf

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 5:11 PM

Hi Oz,

Thanks for the clarification of the subject! Great! So, in conclusion, I was practically right by saying to do not move from the place you are at the moment of the earthquake. It means that the safest place is at that place where you are. Any other can be fatal. I never was present in major earthquake situation but I can imagine the confusion and lost of judgment at this critical moment.

Protection of the head, neck, and the torso is the most important.

All other recommendations are just dreams. Every occasion is different and the "surprise effect" of the earthquake is the worst. It's creating individual panic, psychological treatainings, and we all lack of good judgment at that moment. When you are with people, the "number effect" will or can create more problems than successful solutions.

I would like to get some percentage or ratio of victim/survivor,Gil.

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 5:54 PM

Thanks Ozzb! Your linked article certainly discredits Mr. Copp more than the Snopes article.

I guess we all just have to use our best judgement. Certainly the advise in your article to tie down large objects is wise. In the recent major Chilean earthquake, a friend had his large CRT-type TV end up on the floor. Who would have thought to tie it to the wall?

I seriously doubt if those cars that were overturned during the quakes were overturned by the shaking alone. I just reviewed a bunch of photos of the Chilean 'quake, and all the overturned cars I could find were already in motion at the time of the 'quake, or were overturned by the tsunami.

I definitely agree with your article's advice to crouch, rather than assume the fetal position - so you still have some control, yet have a small surface and not far to fall.

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#30
In reply to #12

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 9:22 AM

Thank you for posting the article. It seems I should have read all of the recent posts before I posted. Thank you again.

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#33
In reply to #12

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 1:04 PM

Hi Warner,

Very educative and simple! Thanks.

As you mentionned, concrete slabs are the worst. Absolutely. When the concrete building is big, some 35 to 45 storey high - I already speak of comparison Porte-au-Prince, Haiti and Hong Kong, China. With the high-rise buildings disaster would be 10 or 100 time more important than in the slum. It's the same as Titanic. Bigger is better but when it's going down, it's dramatic!

Again, I admire your courage to stay in earthquake areas and help surprised people by a moment of "rage of the nature".

All the best in your actions, Gil.

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#37
In reply to #33

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 6:00 PM

It was posted with the best of intentions, but I'm not the one writing the article, and see the links provided by Steve in post #26 and Ozzb in Post #35.

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#68
In reply to #12

Re: Earthquake

04/08/2010 4:37 PM

I was about to forward this "Triangle of Life" write-up to my installation safety people and searched for the original on-line. What I found was interesting and fortuitious.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/triangle.asp

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#69
In reply to #68

Re: Earthquake

04/08/2010 5:19 PM

Hi Lynn,

Thanks for the information but we already know who is Mr Copp. First, all concerning him is a "hoax". Second, I believe, we have to be lucky to survive during an earthquake. Just add together the survivors and who will be remembered as dead.

I understand, everyone wants to stop disasters but we, individually can do nothing against nature. You can be a believer or not but it's that way and point!

Respect for everyone but I stay and wait for the end of the rumble and shaking, Gil.

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#70
In reply to #68

Re: Earthquake

04/08/2010 5:23 PM

I think you must have missed post #26

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#71
In reply to #70

Re: Earthquake

04/08/2010 5:29 PM

Oops, sorry. I must have unsubscribed this thread before that showed up. Try as I might, I can't find a job that consists solely of keeping up with on-line discussions, and must break away to do work SOMEtime.

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#72
In reply to #71

Re: Earthquake

04/08/2010 7:14 PM

oh come on... you aren't really trying...

my partner and I just had a talk.. and she says "are you EVER going to get a job?"

muuahahhaha.

okay fine.. I'm not really evil... and it is true, I'd rather work for myself.. but I am definitely underpaid..lol

Chris

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#87
In reply to #12

Re: Earthquake

04/15/2010 10:16 PM

If I would only pay attention ... I had not noticed your post at all, and just now posted the same information.

Truly sorry.

Actually, after seeing more of the facts from those who know, and today reading this same article sent to me from a friend, it terrified me that my original opinions about survival were so wrong.

I have asked the admins to remove my first posting, and again apologize to you for not seeing your posting of the same article.

Kind regards ...

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#88
In reply to #87

Re: Earthquake

04/15/2010 11:00 PM

No problem! When threads get this long, very few of us have time to read the whole thing from start to finish. I still have very mixed emotions about Copp's article; it seems pretty clear that he is less than fully altruistic (to say it mildly), yet quite a bit of what he says seems quite logical... Judging by the responses, it seems that a lot of others are similarly perplexed!

Dick

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#92
In reply to #88

Re: Earthquake

04/16/2010 5:38 AM

"this long"...it's only 90 posts. Try this.

Sorry, couldn't resist!

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#13

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 3:02 AM

İ once received a suggestion for such a scenario - crawl under your desk, place your head between your knees and kiss your backside goodbye - just in case.

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#16

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 4:27 AM

Good guidelines - İ was telling my wife about them and she commented that was exactly what they say to do here in Turkey where there are fairly frequent earthquakes.

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#17

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 11:04 AM

I tried to find info on the Quake in the Manila Bulletin, on-line, and the Enquirer, on-line, and wala! That evening, we did see some news clips on both GMA and Wowwowee channels (north of Boston, U.S.). My wife is Ilocano (Pangasinan). As re what to do if you are on the 18th floor, I would think that the elevators are hindi! The stairs would be questionable, as you might have a very high ceiling in the stair well, where dislodged concrete, bricks, etc could fall on you. If the Quake is not too strong, best wait it out. We saw two diametrically opposed results from very strong quakes in Haiti and Chile. In Chile, their earthquake was up to 500 times stronger than the quake in Haiti, but almost all buildings in Haiti were damaged or destroyed, while buildings in Chile had much less damage. Building codes and the quality of the cement and concrete used in building was probably the major difference. Digna, my wife, was in the underground in Baguio, as a young girl, during the huge quake of around 1990, and she came out and watched the hotels crumble. Bridges were down and Baguio was essentially isolated for a time. If you see and film clips of the recent damage, I'd appreciate you forwarding them, if possible. Maraming salamat.

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#18

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 11:21 AM

Chile can not really be compared to other locations. They have frequent major quakes - something like 50% of the major quakes in the past 50 years have hit the one country. Anything that can easily tumble down did it years past. They have learned how to build something and have a good chance it will survive.

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#20

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 12:53 PM

Hi Steve,

Forget your particular situation. In any cases, you have to use your judgment. It's a philosophy turned into a game. Here is the safest place? Solve it!

We are safe where we are! Another safer place is for someone else or for you but later. Now, between your actual and future safe place you have a certain time difference and the situation will or can be different too. Do you follow me? Yes? OK! However, when you move from your safe place to the safer place, the future and safer place will stay safe? You don't know, because we cannot predict the future. There is no certainty with any guarrantee. In conclusion, following your point of view, the safer place is were you are actually! For someone else there is another safe place but it's not yours.

So, in your earthquake situation, you are the safest place where you are actually, and you have to "wish" the best that it's really the safest place for you. It could be or not! For example, in the 18th floor you will receive on your head only what is above you. If you go down the stairs, you get more on your head if the building collapsing. Still, you follow me? At lower places you can get more dammages because you have more above your head. It's simple! Please, don't argue with me. Just explain why you think differently than I do. This is the simplicity!

Now, I have a suggestion. Don't go where difficulties and troubles can be for your life! In my life I moved from "communist country" - the goulag was in front of my nose - to another country who did not liked and still don't like emigrants. Here, in Canada, and in particularly in Toronto, everything is safe, including your pension.

Your solution was the best to stay at the same place without moving to an eventually unsafer location! Imagine you have no chance to read my blog. Congratulations! Keep cool!!!

Let me know your impression about my proposal for the next earthquake, Gil.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Earthquake

03/26/2010 2:11 PM

Are you suggesting that determination is a static moment? If it is as you say then all things are at the exact point at which the inevitable possibilities become characterizations based on the inescapable personality of the ostrich. In other words.....with proper information you know what is safe and what is not.

btw...gov't pensions in Canada are still 'safe' for the next 15/20 yrs. Bankrupt after that. Corporate pensions have never been 'safe'.

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#28
In reply to #21

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 9:05 AM

Hi Duck,

Please, read your first sentence and correct it!

I am never wanted corporate pension. For me, corporations, I'm talking about big businesses. No, thanks! Extremely rare that an individual can learn really what she/he wants! Your brain is frozen by internal laws and have to follow your bosses ideas!!!

Thanks for the 15 to 20 years! It will be not necessary after that, Gil.

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#31
In reply to #28

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 10:19 AM

OK....."are you suggesting that to determine one's immediate condition is as a static moment?"

BTW...I know of many corporate pensions that treated it's retiring workers very well. There were also those for reasons nefarious or just poor planning that did not...earthquakes notwithstanding.

As to following the bosses ideas ...... (I know that with this crowd I'm on thin ice here).....I'd just like to point out that there are those who actually are in that position because of their expertise. Working with guys like that IS an upward learning curve.

nazdharovye

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#39
In reply to #31

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 8:20 AM

Hi Duck,

First, there is no "static moment" in our life! There is only "evolution" in events and time.

Second, I never worked for money, including corporate pension. Money is compensation, which follows you. When you earn your money, you were productive and served to solve someone else's problem, and this is work and compensation.

Third, when you want to achieve something, and you are able to know what it takes to do it, you are on the good route to succeed.

Concerning the earthquake situation? Every situation is different, including in the same location. There is no prediction what will happen, just guessings, and elaborated guess-work never works. I accept the fact that I don't know what will happen in five minutes from now. You know? Thanks for the honesty.

I suggested, I can honor any critics, that the "present place is the safest". If I am in error, let me know with some explanation to understand and could be useable by someone in the future, Gil.

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#42
In reply to #39

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 9:10 AM

Hi Gil

If by 'the present place is the safest' is in fact the immediate place fate has placed you then fate is fate only when there are no conditions that reality dictates to make it anything else. In that respect there can be no argument (unless one argues with God). However, to be able to anticipate and make an informed choice gives one a position in the argument of whether one desires to be squeezed or squashed in the event of an earthquake.

Perhaps the true value of doing anything to save oneself is in the panacea it affords....?

Some prepare by conditioning themselves (the Japanese) to react immediately.

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#43
In reply to #42

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 9:35 AM

Hi Duck,

I am a reasonably good chess player, and when you play with someone (the nature as earthquake) you (the victim of the trumblings of the nature) try to predict what the opponent will do but you don't know. Each move is a risk.

You do the same during the earthquake, stay put and wish the best for yourself. If you move, you have two different situations: You survive in the other place because it was safe for you. If you die, this new place wasn't safe for you but was safe for someone else who stayed at the really safe but original location. You can catch me?

It's pure philosophy as life by itself, Gil.

NB: Please, don't play chess when there is an earthquake! You can lose a pawn!

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 10:48 AM

Perhaps it is nature that plays chess........

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 11:42 AM

Hi Duck,

You're "chalked in the river". See you on the board, Gil.

NB: I'm white: " g4 " !!! HaHa! Duck, you're in trouble!!!

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#46
In reply to #45

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 12:19 PM

There are times when the winds blow from here to Toronto, Becker.........

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 12:38 PM

Hello Duck,

No earthquake in here but I and many others are ready to stay at place when the building starts to shaking and/or trembling and asking that the wind from your place will not carrying some radioactive materials. I like what I see, Gil.

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 4:31 PM

Toronto....ha...A fools paradise if I ever saw one. Utopists without reason.

Take a closer look at the St. Lawrence fault line (hint...it's the big crack that extends from Lake Erie to the Atlantic).

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#49
In reply to #48

Re: Earthquake

03/31/2010 1:01 PM

Hi Duck,

So, we are more than 4 million foulish in this town of Toronto? Thanks for everyone.

I could be without reason or being unreasonable but I am immune to polite critics.

Just a few words about "earthquake". I born close to a small "cone" in a plain area, which produces one of the best red wine of the country. It has also sulfurous hot water, around 87*C at the origine, smell like hell but visited by thousands and thousands people and deep their feet or legs into that hot water to heal some skin or other problems. Every year, we have some shaking for a few seconds. Everyone talk about during the next few days, and some suggests that one day this "cone" in the plain will be a volcano and will kill all of us. The next week, no one talk about and life take its normal rules. Seismologs told that during the last 10 or 15,000 years, this "cone" was not a volcano and very little chance to become one. What can I do against scientific explanations? Nothing.

If you want to learn what is prediction as suggested originally, read my other comment, Gil.

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Earthquake

03/31/2010 3:15 PM

Allow me to guess......Moravia.

How's my chess?

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#53
In reply to #50

Re: Earthquake

03/31/2010 4:56 PM

Hi Duck,

Not at all. The river will tell you something. You lost the game by check-mate! Guess again, and your prediction will be appreciated, considered but not criticized, Gil.

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Earthquake

03/31/2010 5:49 PM

OH Well, after Moravia the choices with sulphur springs are many.Tarnopol Ukraine, Moldova, Lake district Germany, Crimea, Azov area.......Ballaton .......

btw....not predicting, just having some fun.

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#56
In reply to #54

Re: Earthquake

04/01/2010 8:50 AM

Hello Duck,

The answer is Villany in Hungary. I born close to that small town. However, your chess game must be better to hope a victory.

Again, others' prediction that we have to move from the original place to a safer place is questionnable. Who knows that the next place is safer than the previous? No one! It's guessing! Again, after analyzing possibilities and situations, and including people around you, a calm evacuation is not possible, only is when you are alone but at 18th floor you necessarily live with other people if not with many. Also, we have to concider the "funnel effect", which will happens in the stairs. Imagine if you have 10 persons on each floor, when you are at the door to go out, we have the pressure of 170 to 180 persons. To maintain calm and ordered, wait a minute!

To understand more mass evacuation, read reports on fire in bars, restaurants, churches or other events with people. Everyone wants to be outside the first. It's impossible and this impossibility to get out the first, creates "stamping" over smallers and falling people. The results are disastrous. Just get the information on Moscow subway bombing. Injured, not killed people were stamped to more critical injuries or died. The psychology of chaos and lack of organizational capabilities are combined, I recommend to stay where you are and let pass the shocks and hope for the best results. The "earthquake" already work against you, don't let other people harm you.

I would like to get the comments about this subject of a professional psychoanalyst to understand better human reactions in these occasions, Gil.

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#55
In reply to #53

Re: Earthquake

03/31/2010 6:27 PM

Sharon Springs?

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#57
In reply to #55

Re: Earthquake

04/01/2010 8:55 AM

Hi Bob,

Where is that? The answer I already gave to Duck.

You see, predictions are confusing and difficult but never easy, precise or difficult, hard. It's in between but not clear cut. Chaos and confusion is the best definition.

Tell me what you think about that, Gil.

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#59
In reply to #57

Re: Earthquake

04/01/2010 1:02 PM

Sharon Springs is closer to you, than to me.I am posting this tomorrow, so don't expect to get it today.

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#73
In reply to #42

Re: Earthquake

04/09/2010 9:46 AM

Hi Duck,

I re-read and read again your and my comments and conclude that:

1) We absolutely don't know when and where the earthquake will be, and what will be its force on the Richter scale!

2) We don't or never know, if we will be involved in an earthquake.

3) No one can tell us, uncluding our "God", what to do and how to do during the earthquake. He never called me!

4) After the first three points, the final conclusion: No one can make "informed choice" and "anticipate" anything because we are ignorant about the earthquake.

Now, I am not arguing about what you and someone else said, I just saying that every suggestion is foulish and dangereous or life-treatening. You told that my suggestion to "stay put" and "wait" for the end of the trumlings and shakings I put fate in, was not good and I have to move to a safer place. Where is the safer place? Fate and other dreaming suggestions are irrevelent against nature. This is what I am saying!

Before, during, and after an earthquake, we are alive or dead. How I can choose the correct action when I know nothing? I dream, put fate in my becoming, stay on place or move. The result will be the same in each occasion. So, I choose the simplest, stay on may original location. Simplicity is better than complexity, isn't it? I stay simple, Gil.

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: Earthquake

04/09/2010 10:21 AM

I didn't say it was good or not good. Ones' own instinct to survive will direct what one will do anyway. I am just saying that if given the correct survival information and being aware of one's immediate surroundings one can make an informed and immediate choice. Having just read about the survivable triangle makes a lot of sense to me.

For eg.......kids in Japan are taught what to do. They become hardwired from practicing reaction skills.

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#75
In reply to #42

Re: Earthquake

04/09/2010 12:14 PM

Hi Duck,

It's me again. Concerning the Japanese, they react immediately. You're right. They react because they have for centuries all kinds of propaganda program to endoctrinate them to act such way about something or someone, their king or emperor, or understand another way something or somebody else. We cannot do that in North America. We cannot be disciplined. We are individualistic. We are ego driven people. We are not obedient to no one, including ourselves. We wish to have order but we act as chaotic as possible. What's better? No idea but we, with chaos, are leading sometimes, they, with discipline, are leading some other times.

Again, no one argues with God. We just follow what we understand from him, and others reject everything from him.

Finally, during an earthquake, I stay at the same place and wait to the end, which will happen soon, a few minutes, because the nature created chaos around me, and I have to be disciplined. If I'm chaotic too, it will be trouble for everyone, the nature, being responsible to hurt or kill me and me, hurt or killed. When someone move from one place to another, what will happen? First, the staying person can be killed at the original place. Bad for me! Second, can be hurt during the move. Bad for the moving individual! Third, also can be killed at the new location. Bad again for the mover. The final count is the following: I can be killed once and the moving individual can be killed three times. I honestly opt for the single opportunity, Gil.

NB: Did you like my mathematics?

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#76
In reply to #75

Re: Earthquake

04/09/2010 12:32 PM

Hi Gil

"Again, no one argues with God."

Then why would we do any engineering whatsoever? We humans build build build... all the things we imagine, and that God did not provide. I think God does not interfere at all. We have complete dominion here. God will judge us in Heaven, but not on earth. This is our domain and we are free to do as we will. imho.

therefore, I repeat, let us engineer rapid escape systems as I outlined in my previous post.

There is a traditional bit of wisdome that says "Just because something can be done does not mean that it should be done." As my crawlery to that, "If it can be done, and people are dying because it hasn't even been tried, then it should be done."

Chris

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#77
In reply to #76

Re: Earthquake

04/09/2010 1:30 PM

Hi Chris,

Everything is fine without argument. When we want to build something we try to predict what will happen. All my explanations are trying to predict what's happening in the case of an earthquake. There is no prediction. Nature act and we are subjected to the trumblings and shakings. We don't know when, where, and how it will happen? However, we humans, we think and we want to create a picture about the future situation. This is what I want to say. If it happens the earthquake, I probably, without 100% guarrantee, act that way. I add "probably" because the circumstance is unknown at this moment, so I don't know my reaction to the future situation.

Also, I don't want to argue with God. There will be only the written and existing answers for me. All the best from Gil.

NB: This answer is the reaction to your comment. Simply.

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#79
In reply to #76

Re: Earthquake

04/12/2010 4:02 AM

Corollary.

Just because I can

GA.

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#82
In reply to #79

Re: Earthquake

04/12/2010 10:19 AM

You're better than I! I couldn't figure out what 'crawlery' was...

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#85
In reply to #79

Re: Earthquake

04/12/2010 11:20 AM

You don't think I could mangle that word that bad accidentally do you? I thought it was a fine addition to the language myself. I was quite proud of it.

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#91
In reply to #85

Re: Earthquake

04/16/2010 5:28 AM

ROFL !! That deserves a GA just for the sheer brass neck!

Have a rice wine on me

PS: "... that word that badly accidentally ..." : it's an adverb here, not an adjective.

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#95
In reply to #91

Re: Earthquake

04/16/2010 11:28 AM

true - it was badly put. tks.

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#96
In reply to #95

Re: Earthquake

04/19/2010 4:33 AM

Tee hee!

Did you follow the links (there are 2 of them)?

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#97
In reply to #96

Re: Earthquake

04/19/2010 9:38 AM

ah, I see them now.. cute

do they have those for french? would help learn all those nasty verb conjugations.

chris

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#98
In reply to #97

Re: Earthquake

04/21/2010 4:14 AM

I don't think Tom bothered with French - he was (and probably still is, although he no longer broadcasts) a superb satirist, as well as a professor of Maths at Harvard.

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#78
In reply to #75

Re: Earthquake

04/09/2010 2:30 PM

If by your mathematics you intend to prove that North Americans are egotistically driven by self-contained feedback loops it would be the same as saying they have one thumb in their mouth and the other up their ass. That analog is temporary at best......otherwise the demise becomes permanent, earthquakes notwithstanding.

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#80
In reply to #78

Re: Earthquake

04/12/2010 8:17 AM

Hello Duck,

You confirm what I said; You don't accept others opinion, so you are right and everyone is wrong. Your ego is up on the top. I wish you are comfortable and take your thumb.

During an earthquake, just saying, we have 90 people in the streets and 10 people in the buildings. After your opinion, and you have one, what will be the result and how many will die and survive? Wait for your answer, Gil.

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Earthquake

04/12/2010 9:34 AM

Thankyou.........I'm outa here.

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#83
In reply to #81

Re: Earthquake

04/12/2010 10:59 AM

Hi Duck,

What's the problem to answer or guess about the eventualities. Ah, you don't want to involve yourself? It's good! Stay on your pidestal, Gil.

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#84
In reply to #83

Re: Earthquake

04/12/2010 11:17 AM

I'm really not interested in engaging in a personal exchange of vulgarity. If I was anything less than a gentleman I'd say GFY but being the gentleman that I am I won't tell you to GFY.

What's the problem to answer or guess about the eventualities ....with you it's more a matter of need.

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#24

Re: Earthquake

03/27/2010 3:38 AM

I propose retrofitting buildings in quake zones with 'external' shelters on each floor. These would be attached to the side of the building so they aren't flattened in the pancake, and would be painted / decorated to be thematically consistent with the rest of the building. (ie, mirror plated)

If the building collapses in a quake, its a fairly sure thing it will collapse pancake style, so if it is attached to the floors, i think it might survive the ride to the ground... just pad the inside with at least a foot of solid foam or airbags or something. The shelter pods themselves would not be allowed to be vertically aligned, so they can't crush lower ones upon arrival at the ground.

They should also be fitted with radios and locator beacons to assist rapid recovery, as well as a surival pack (food & water), first aid kits, fire extinguishers, flashlights etc... because if you are buried under rubble, it may take a bit of time to get you out.

and like any good escape pod... if you and your co-workers have run into the shelter pod while the building is shaking... perhaps you can eject early, and have a cable controlled descent to the ground.. but I can see potential moral dilemmas arising if anyone gets left behind...

after installation, of course, people who enter the building will have to be trained in the rapid egress to the escape/shelter pod system.

There are a lot of systems that can be retrofitted to buildings... cable systems, ropes, drop tubes, even giant inflatable slides like airplanes. most especially, as Dcad has noted that it takes the ordinary person a few seconds to recognize a quake.. that electronic sensors can detect vibrations long before a human.. and set off an alarm, giving you that few seconds you need to pull the pin and get on board. training with the system would help immensely.

but again, this only makes sense in quake zones..

Chris

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#40
In reply to #24

Re: Earthquake

03/30/2010 8:42 AM

Hi Chris,

It will save lifes for sure. The realization of this project has some difficulties. Imagine Hong Kong with 7,5 million people, their government, their habits to collaborate, and volonty to do what it must be done but not well understood by the minority, they are not concerned with it, the majority who has the daily life is the most important, not the safety in certain and/or eventual occasion.

When it will happen once, they will do something about it, not before. Human being is that way; We have to suffer first to realize the true reality of life. Chaos first and we turn to complex solutions, and finally when nothing works, we become simple.

I don't know if every building collapses in a pancake style. In New York the building collapses were extremely stylish but not pancake. We can tell as automated or something of this gender. Everyone talks about it! There, we didn't have any chaos.

Thanks for your sending. I learn and try to apply as is or make some changes for different situation. All the best, Gil.

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#27

Re: Earthquake

03/28/2010 10:05 PM

Steve it is good to here from you again. Hurricanes, earthquakes. Do you freelance for the weather channel?

A few days after the Haiti quake I happened to see a show on surviving earthquakes. It was supposed to be based on lessons learned from the Mexico earthquake. It was widely shown in Europe (I think), but little coverage in USA.

The results showed that there are safer places inside buildings if we know where to look. If you are in an office, you don,t want to be in a doorway, or next to a wall.

There will be many safe triangles created when the collapse happens. The roof may fall, but it will not be able to crush a stack of plywood. If you are in a quake prone area, look for safe zones in rooms as a way of life. If you have a desk in your office, fill the empty spaces with reams of paper. There is very little space to crush a ream of paper. All those old files, don't throw them out, stack them in an old cardboard box and store them under your desk. Anything you can do to stop the desk from collapsing lower, will leave a taller survival triangle. Don't go under the desk, lay next to the desk. In a house, look at the furniture. A table made from 2" thick wood will support more weight then a piece of crap made with 1/2" pressed sawdust. In a bedroom, don't get under a bed, lay next to the bed. When there is a choice, get next to an exterior wall. If you are alive and trapped, you will be better able to make yourself herd if you are nearer to the outside.

Try searching on line for earthquake videos. There were a few more survival tips there worth looking at. Good luck.

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: Earthquake

03/29/2010 9:15 AM

Hi Bob,

It's unconvenient to talk about but the question was done.

Imagine if Porte-au-Prince, Haiti was Hong Kong, China with 35 to 45 storey buildings. The number of dead will be multiplied by 10 or 100. In the slum, little dammage!

I persist to say; In earthquake situation, what's above is the most important, Gil.

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#51

Re: Earthquake

03/31/2010 4:26 PM

I would recommend calmly exiting the building. Earthquakes can cause fires by breaking gas lines, and the 18 floor of a burning building is a bad place to be.

Glad you're ok.

Roger

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#52
In reply to #51

Re: Earthquake

03/31/2010 4:51 PM

Hi Roger,

I accept the idea of "exiting the building" but "calmly" will be very hard. Why? The panic at that moment to reach a crisis will be incredible and just do something alone is hard and labourious.

The big problem is the rupture of everything, water become non-existent, gas will be free flowing up and up, and can ignite, and burn the rest of the building from top to down, and people in.

Thanks. It's good to remember, Gil.

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#58
In reply to #52

Re: Earthquake

04/01/2010 9:10 AM

Hi Gil,

I don't agree with your assessment of inevitable panic. For instance, during the evacuations of the buildings during 9/11, there was little panic, it was quite orderly in the stairwells. At least that's what I've read.

However maybe a prudent course of action would be to wait till the shaking stops and then evacuate the building. That way the earth quake, which may incite panic, is gone, but you still have time to evacuate before any fires get out of control.

Roger

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: Earthquake

04/01/2010 2:39 PM

Hi Roger,

I agree with you that it was calm at lower level, where people did not have any idea what was happened. Through communication they get advice to quit the place rapidly, calmly, and they did. However, close to airplane crash, under and above the panic was dominating. Imagine, poor people jumped from the top. It was not a calm situation or a little panic.

A real earthquake, magnitude 6 or 7 at Richter scale, will be a much better example. Roger, think about and let us know if I am wrong or closer to the right explanation, Gil.

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: Earthquake

04/01/2010 3:05 PM

I guess the truth is I don't know what sorts of situations make people panic and which don't. As I was saying earlier, probably little is gained by leaving for the exit as the earthquake is occurring. So I would suggest to wait till is stops and then calmly use the staircase to evacuate the building. In my mind I feel like if the building is going to collapse it will just come down to luck if you survive. However I think a subsequent death by fire afterward could be avoided by prudent evacuation.

Of course, I don't ever remember hearing about a skyscraper burning after an earthquake, so it may be an unnecessary precaution.

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: Earthquake

04/01/2010 3:24 PM

Hi Roger,

That's right, when a critical situation occurs, you need luck to survive! No one can stop the shaking and collapsing. Human is a victim or a survivor but he cannot chose, he is subjected to the event and its consequences.

When everything is became calm, you can walk down the stairs but, including at this moment, human need luck to not receive or get something heavy on the head. Finally when human is out of the building, he can say; Now I am in safe place!

Imagine another situation, when this person is outside safely from the building, his neighbour want to shoot his wife, miss her and the wife-missing bullet don't miss the earthquake lucky person, and kill him on the spot. You see the safety prediction was good a moment and was wrong in a few seconds later. Unlucky safe person, Gil.

NB: Choose wisely your neighbours!

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#66
In reply to #62

Re: Earthquake

04/07/2010 9:45 AM

Hi Everyone,

I would like to make an important correction. I said; "When everything is became calm, when human is out of the building, he can say; Now I am in safe place!"

This is not necessarily true! What's happening with an "after-shock"? If I'm too close to the building I just left, can fall on me, and this could be another disaster, and particularly to me. I have to watch my elegant and rapid conclusions. More you think about it, more you have to care what and how to do it. This is a good exercise!!!

So, I have to conclude that during an earthquake, we need luck to survive. Only luck, nothing else!

Wish you an "earthquake-free" day, Gil.

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#63

Re: Earthquake

04/06/2010 10:54 PM

Now they are chasing me. Sitting at my desk on the 18th floor of the Petronas Tower 2 in Kuala Lumpur this morning I experienced my second earthquake. Very minor in KL, even though it was 7.7 in Sumatra. Just caused the chains on the blinds to rattle back and forth.

Perhaps I need to avoid the 18th floor of buildings.

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Earthquake

04/06/2010 10:59 PM

It's all your fault!!! The earth is coming apart at the seams, and you are the focal point of the stress!!! The sky might be falling, too- but my aluminum foil helmet should protect me from that...

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#65
In reply to #63

Re: Earthquake

04/07/2010 7:01 AM

Glad to hear you are alright, Steve.

Seems the earthquakes this year are never ending.

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#67

Re: Earthquake

04/08/2010 12:30 AM

"Hi. This is Steve S. reporting to you for the natural disaster channel......."

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#86

Re: Earthquake

04/15/2010 10:05 PM

Hi to all,

After I posted my thoughts, especially the issue about getting under a table or in a doorway, there were many other posts with different instructions. My thoughts about the stairways was good, but maybe I just got lucky.

For my own peace of mind, I'm retracting my posting (if I know how).

Today, I received a general email from a friend who posted an article written by a rescue worker. I will cut and past it below ... sorry for length, but I think it's worth it. It's a little graphic, but good to know.

Finally, if this duplicates someone else's post or research, my apologies for not noticing ... as the length of the posts increases, sometimes it's hard to keep up.

Kind regards ...

EXTRACT FROM DOUG COPP'S ARTICLE ON THE: "TRIANGLE OF LIFE"

My name is Doug Copp. I am the Rescue Chief and Disaster Manager of the American Rescue Team International (ARTI), the world's most experienced rescue team. The information in this article will save lives in an earthquake.

I have crawled inside 875 collapsed buildings, worked with rescue teams from 60 countries, founded rescue teams in several countries, and I am a member of many rescue teams from many countries...

I was the United Nations expert in Disaster Mitigation for two years. I have worked at every major disaster in the world since 1985, except for simultaneous disasters.

The first building I ever crawled inside of was a school in Mexico City during the 1985 earthquake. Every child was under its desk. Every child was crushed to the thickness of their bones. They could have survived by lying down next to their desks in the aisles. It was obscene, unnecessary and I wondered why the children were not in the aisles. I didn't at the time know that the children were told to hide under something.

Simply stated, when buildings collapse, the weight of the ceilings falling upon the objects or furniture inside crushes these objects, leaving a space or void next to them. This space is what I call the "triangle of life".
The larger the object, the stronger, the less it will compact. The less the object compacts, the larger the void, the greater the probability that the person who is using this void for safety will not be injured. The next time you watch collapsed buildings, on television, count the "triangles" you see formed. They are everywhere. It is the most common shape, you will see, in a collapsed building.

TIPS FOR EARTHQUAKE SAFETY

1) Most everyone who simply "ducks and covers" WHEN BUILDINGS COLLAPSE are crushed to death. People who get under objects, like desks or cars, are crushed.

2) Cats, dogs and babies often naturally curl up in the fetal position. You should too, in an earthquake.. . It is a natural safety/survival instinct. You can survive in a smaller void. Get next to an object, next to a sofa, next to a large bulky object that will compress slightly but leave a void next to it.

3) Wooden buildings are the safest type of construction to be in during an earthquake. Wood is flexible and moves with the force of the earthquake. If the wooden building does collapse, large survival voids are created. Also, the wooden building has less concentrated, crushing weight. Brick buildings will break into individual bricks. Bricks will cause many injuries but less squashed bodies than concrete slabs.

4) If you are in bed during the night and an earthquake occurs, simply roll off the bed. A safe void will exist around the bed. Hotels can achieve a much greater survival rate in earthquakes, simply by posting a sign on The back of the door of every room telling occupants to lie down on the floor, next to the bottom of the bed during an earthquake.

5) If an earthquake happens and you cannot easily escape by getting out the door or window, then lie down and curl up in the fetal position next to a sofa, or large chair.

6) Most everyone who gets under a doorway when buildings collapse is killed. How? If you stand under a doorway and the door jamb falls forward or backward you will be crushed by the ceiling above. If the door jam falls sideways you will be cut in half by the doorway. In either case, you will be killed!

7) Never go to the stairs. The stairs have a different "moment of frequency" (they swing separately from the main part of the building). The stairs and remainder of the building continuously bump into each other until structural failure of the stairs takes place. The people who get on stairs before they fail are chopped up by the stair treads - horribly mutilated. Even if the building doesn't collapse, stay away from the stairs. The stairs are a likely part of the building to be damaged. Even if the stairs are not collapsed by the earthquake, they may collapse later when overloaded by fleeing people. They should always be checked for safety, even when the rest of the building is not damaged.

8) Get Near the Outer Walls Of Buildings Or Outside Of Them If Possible - It is much better to be near the outside of the building rather than the interior. The farther inside you are from the outside perimeter of the building the greater the probability that your escape route will be blocked.

9) People inside of their vehicles are crushed when the road above falls in an earthquake and crushes their vehicles; which is exactly what happened with the slabs between the decks of the Nimitz Freeway... The victims of the San Francisco earthquake all stayed inside of their vehicles. They were all killed. They could have easily survived by getting out and sitting or lying next to their vehicles. Everyone killed would have survived if they had been able to get out of their cars and sit or lie next to them. All the crushed cars had voids 3 feet high next to them, except for the cars that had columns fall directly across them.

10) I discovered, while crawling inside of collapsed newspaper offices and other offices with a lot of paper, that paper does not compact. Large voids are found surrounding stacks of paper.

Spread the word and save someone's life... The entire world is experiencing natural calamities so be prepared!

"We are but angels with one wing, it takes two to fly"

In 1996 we made a film, which proved my survival methodology to be correct. The Turkish Federal Government, City of Istanbul, University of Istanbul Case Productions and ARTI cooperated to film this practical, scientific test. We collapsed a school and a home with 20 mannequins inside. Ten mannequins did "duck and cover," and ten mannequins I used in my "triangle of life" survival method. After the simulated earthquake collapse we crawled through the rubble and entered the building to film and document the results. The film, in which I practiced my survival techniques under directly observable, scientific conditions, relevant to building collapse, showed there would have been zero percent survival for those doing duck and cover.

There would likely have been 100 percent survivability for people using my method of the "triangle of life." This film has been seen by millions of viewers on television in Turkey and the rest of Europe , and it was seen in the USA , Canada and Latin America on the TV program Real TV

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#89
In reply to #86

Re: Earthquake

04/16/2010 3:22 AM

Sorry DCAD, you need to retract this one too.

It has already been posted and a Snoops article citing the red cross has already been posted refuting it.

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#90
In reply to #89

Re: Earthquake

04/16/2010 3:37 AM

Maybe time for me to just BE QUIET :-)

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#93
In reply to #90

Re: Earthquake

04/16/2010 5:40 AM

Nah! If we all did that when we got out of sync, no-one would say anything.

See yah around

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#94
In reply to #93

Re: Earthquake

04/16/2010 5:54 AM

Thanks :-)

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