Previous in Forum: Power System   Next in Forum: Hyundai Vertical Motor
Close
Close
Close
11 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Woodstock GA
Posts: 17

Discolored Wires

04/13/2010 11:48 PM

I saw an installation today of 3 bulb 4' T8 flouresents.

No circuit is overloaded. The highes I was 8 amps on a 20 amp capability circuit.

The circuits each go through contactors with coil volts operated thru a switch The contactors are in an enclosure ajacent to the breaker panel.

The 4 months since the opening there have been many failures of bulbs and ballasts.

Upon inspection today the ground wires from the fixtures are discolored in the ground buss in the contactor enclosure.

Also the hot wires are discolored at the contactors,

What is causing the failures and the discoloring of the copper wires at the contactor enclosure?

The neutral wires go to the breaker panel neutral buss and are fine.

__________________
JS CPQ
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 3054
Good Answers: 141
#1

Re: Discolored wires

04/14/2010 1:13 AM

Did you measure if current flows through your ground wire? It is also not exceptional that wires discolor. Some batches might be out of specs. That is what I understand with discoloration.

If they all turn out brown, on the way to burned....

Than there is really a problem. Maybe first check if everything is wired correctly. And megger the circuit out, contactors included, and also the ground bus on the contactor. Feedback appreciated.

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Discolored wires

04/14/2010 1:26 AM

The 20-amp breakers may be oversized for the actual loads. Though 8 amps may not overload or trip the CBs, it may be overloading some individual conductors. If memory serves, the internal wiring in fluorescent fixtures is about 18-gauge, which is good for about 6 amps. Thus 8 amps may be overheating some wires. You might want to consider supplementary protection for the individual fixtures. This is all a bit of a guess; I don't do very much lighting.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 3054
Good Answers: 141
#5
In reply to #2

Re: Discolored wires

04/14/2010 9:45 AM

If this is the case, it should be checked out first. I just wonder here how the fixtures can pass a test or the set up lacks installation regulations (if they do not restrict the number of armatures to be connected through using partly the same wires).

But the case has to be solved.

If the discoloration is very local, close to the connector points, and the wire is of appropriate size, maybe the screws are not tightened enough?

Is it the copper that discolors, or the insulation of the wires or both? And what about the screws and seats? If a heat scanner is available, it should show where temperatures are too high.

If the wiring is undersized, I should expect discoloration on more spots. I also don't exclude the contactor, where depending on the type, maybe a bad contact heats up one output. Although the ground connector should not be switched. Maybe as a test, you could connect through a CFGI 1. Before 2. Behind the contactor. Ground faults will show up this way. The ground wire involved looks strange to me too. Am I missing something? Thanks Tornado.

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Woodstock GA
Posts: 17
#6
In reply to #1

Re: Discolored wires

04/14/2010 12:02 PM

no current on ground wires.

No more than 8.5 amps on any light circuit.

Connections all tight

N wires are OK

__________________
JS CPQ
Register to Reply
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2181
Good Answers: 255
#3

Re: Discolored wires

04/14/2010 3:05 AM

Discoloured wires near the breaker (or any connection) implies a high resistance connection creating local heating.

Given the other symptoms that you described, a voltage drop may be contributing to the other symptoms.

A QUALIFIED electrician could easily check this by measuring voltage drop in the live circuit. Remember SAFETY is the important issue here. They may also be able to check and confirm correct wiring during the same visit.

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#4

Re: Discolored wires

04/14/2010 5:14 AM

Consult a qualified electrician locally, ideally before a fire results in damage, destruction and loss of life.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#7

Re: Discolored Wires

04/14/2010 5:15 PM

it could be a ballast with a very poor power factor leaking a lot of harmonics back onto the line that is causing the wires to heat up too. try to determine if the wires are heating up, preferably using a non-contact IR thermometer. if they are not heating up, then it could be oxidation due to ozone or a reaction to the UV leakage of the fluorescent tube.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Woodstock GA
Posts: 17
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Discolored Wires

04/15/2010 6:25 AM

Local EC asked for help.

Did the IR all ok.

Discoloring is in an enclosure with the operating contactorsThe lights are T8 3 bulb 4 foot troughers. Voltage is 120v with ballasts rated 120 to 277v

Wire is green, red, blue, which should eliminate the bad copper theory.

Monitoring overnight for volts amps, harmonics, PF, freg.,etc.

Primary concern is failures of bulbs and ballasts in afast food resturant kitchen only open for 4 -5 months.

__________________
JS CPQ
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Discolored Wires

04/15/2010 7:23 AM

Could it be environmental? Grease vapor from the deep fryer maybe? plastics (pvc) could absorb grease and discolor.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Woodstock GA
Posts: 17
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Discolored Wires

04/15/2010 10:42 AM

The copper is discoloring not the insu;ation as I have said 4 times before.

__________________
JS CPQ
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Discolored Wires

04/15/2010 2:48 PM

I'm very sorry Joe, sometimes I can be pretty thick, I didn't pick up on the fact you were talking about the copper not the jacket before. Mea culpa! (I've gone back and re-read and still didn't see where you made it clear you were talking about the copper not the jacket, but like I said I can be pretty thick at times too.) But even then it could still be environmental, high humidity and/or corrosive vapors in the air (cleaning products such as ammonia based glass cleaner or chlorine based bleach are pretty bad about turning copper dark. it can embrittle it too.). you might just have a cleaning crew that is being too dang good at their jobs! animal fats can be pretty dang corrosive too.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 11 comments

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

dvmdsc (2); JOECPQ1 (3); Just an Engineer (1); PWSlack (1); Rorschach (3); Tornado (1)

Previous in Forum: Power System   Next in Forum: Hyundai Vertical Motor

Advertisement