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What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 3:44 AM

Just thought I'd throw this into the ring. Any comments. Too good to be true? Hope that Blink is still with us. Yep, were is Ken when you need him;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDpDZWNnRc4

Any takers?

I'll comment a bit later, gotta get a bit more reading done first, Ky.

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#1

Re: What's your take on these guys?

04/28/2010 4:41 AM

Interesting but I find it disturbing, no explanation of the manufacturing process other than it brakes down the raw material into atoms that are rearranged into the finished product. And the the combusted gas produces oxygen? This is only available to a selected few and investors?

Regards JD. Good to see an inertesting post.

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#10
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Re: What's your take on these guys?

04/28/2010 11:07 PM

I wonder if it is a variation on the Super Critical Water Oxydizer. (for breaking down biological waste to atomic levels)

Chris

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#28
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Re: What's your take on these guys?

04/29/2010 4:56 AM

Hi Chris, The chemistry is a bit over my head, but I do remember a well advertised process back I believe about 1975, in New Zealand, that had a catalyzed system to brake down natural waste into combustible material, I believe in liquid form but not sure? IMHO I suppose it raises the the point, is there a more cost effective process to produce a combustible fuel than a biological one?

Regards JD.

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#2

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 9:27 AM

After watching bwire's offering of You tube logic, and now this, I can only conclude that we have too much leisure time on our hands.

Color me skeptical.

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#3

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 10:38 AM

I think it sounds like they are talking about syngas. This is the first article I have found describing why we don't have plasma incinerators all over the place already.

http://news.discovery.com/tech/plasma-scorch-trash-hurdles.html

Drew

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#4

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 3:55 PM

I don't trust anything on YouTube, so here is a link to the actual company website.

http://www.magnegas.com/

Looks dodgy to me as the process is about using electricity to generate a combination of gases (mostly hydrogen) that can be used as a fuel. Doesn't this sound familiar to anyone else (hint- water electrolysis and browns gas).

Given the vast quantities of natural gas available this enterprise doesn't seen very economically viable. Sure there is plasma arc technology available that is doing a similar thing, but the purpose of that is primarily garbage disposal (with power generation as a secondary benefit).

From the scientific background page

http://www.magnegas.com/Scientific-backgr.html

It looks similar to one of many scam pages I have seen before (and I am not to sure about their views on 'clan burning').

Seriously though, there is nothing here I haven't seen before in one form or another, whether or not it is a scam I don't know (at least not without a closer examination), but I will say it looks too good to be true BUT may be worth a closer inspection for specific niche market buyers (potential investors beware without close examination of the companies 'books').

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#11
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 11:15 PM

it is simply the binding of hadrons together with magnecular force grids. Duh! ("bonded together by opposing magnetic polarities in toroidal deformations of atomic orbitals")

Why didn't I think of that?

oh, because these are "energies that cannot be even conceived, let a'one treated with the 20th century sciences" [sic]

Now I don't even have to feel bad.

Chris

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#14
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 11:43 PM

Hi Chris

That's the sloppiness I mentioned above. Terrible. Some bloody journo stuffing up all the good work. These guys have no time to edit and leave that to the underlings. Poor management.

Even in some technical details there are some inconsistencies. That's why I thought I should bring it up here and have others have a look at it.

In general I am open to the concept and understand most if not all of what they are doing. That's the stuff that makes this funny sound when it goes over your head.. Because I can see what they are getting at and am willing to do that extra step, namely stay as objective as possible for as long as possible. Maybe there are some crumbs for me to pick up. Nothing comes from nothing.

There was this sound again. Carlos say's Hellow

Wish you were here, Ky.

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#29
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 9:56 AM

If it's not a scam then the oil companies will do everything in their power, including propaganda claiming it to be a scam, to prevent a product getting on the market that can and will cut into their own profits.

The oil companies have the money and the power to do it and they are above prosecution.

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#33
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 3:11 PM

As part of my job I work with the oil companies and based on my experience, these conspiratorial comments are not actually based on real life. At the very least they would buy the company out or start their own (like BP and their solar initiative).

Sometimes the world just isn't as dark and scary as books and movies make it appear.

Jack - Trust no one (except perhaps You tube)

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#34
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 3:45 PM

I believe you. They would buy it up and if they deemed it a good risk they would market it themselves.

As far as conspiracies go. Standard Oil of New Jersey was selling to both Germany and the U.S. during WWII. They hold no loyalty to any particular country.

I knew an accoutant for Exxon Oil, that served on the Alaskan Pipeline and experiened the gas crunch of 1973. He told us that the United States only imported 2% of our oil for the sole purpose of claiming we have to import so they could increase the prices. He also told us that the routing of fuel trucks into the desert and dumping the fuel so it would reach the gas pumps was not a rumer but that they actually were rerouting those trucks to dump fuel. He said there was so much corruption that he couldn't handle it and took an extended leave of absense and was still on that leave of absense when we met him.

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#38
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/03/2012 8:44 PM

Strip away all the press release stuff and you get a process for electrolytic transformation of new propylene glycol (aka "antifreeze") into a bottled metal-cutting gas that's (according to an assay in MagneGas' MSDS document):

69.5% hydrogen, 28% carbon monoxide, 1.4% methane, .67% nitrogen, 0.22% oxygen, and some other gases

It's a competitor for acetylene because acetylene costs more to make and this stuff supposedly burns hotter and cleaner, with less added oxygen (and doesn't have to be shipped in acetone-filled containers to manage the explosion risk that acetylene has).

I'd LOVE to see Underwriters Laboratories evaluate this claim. That would be blue-chip enough for me.

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#43
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/05/2012 1:53 PM

Humm, You just joined and your posts are being immediately voted as good answers on a thread fro 2010.

So who's sock-puppet are you??

Admin, please look into this guy.

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#44
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/05/2012 5:02 PM

Good answer is good answer. But I was told that there is ban for anonimous posters, or that is Your web name?

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#45
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/05/2012 5:43 PM

Henrik14

It's possibly a member who is aware of the rules and wants to be smart on the side. This (CR4P) happens here from time to time and with such a complex issue at hand such interruptions should be left by the wayside.

Post#38

was a legitimate post and just the mentioning of Underwriters Laboratories opens a new can of worms but should clearly be seen as a professional why to sort things out.Enemies of this technology would have done their homework by now and if it sell and keeps selling it would be better for all of us.

On the other hand there is more to welding than meets the eye. Here is a link to another discussion

Can Syngas Be Used As An Industrial Gas (As An Oxyfuel) To Cut Metal

For people with my understanding of welding it was an eye opener. I think the welder is the person to ask, in the end.

Kind Regards, Ky.

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#46
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/05/2012 7:36 PM

Fine. My father was gunsmith so I vaquely remenbered term "carburizing flame" which should b properly called "carbonizing flame" as it hardens surface of steel and make it corosion resistant. Sorry that father hass no time to teach me what he knew, but I was computer programmer by then so maybe he figured this would be of no use to me. Still I remembr things about tempering steel by watching the color it get when heated, beautifuly blue for springs.......

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#49
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/08/2012 12:44 PM

Anonymous Poster #1: "Humm, You just joined and your posts are being immediately voted as good answers on a thread fro 2010.

So who's sock-puppet are you??

Admin, please look into this guy."

PLEASE look into me. I'm no one's sock puppet. I'm a retired systems analyst from Denver, and numerical analysis of physical problems was what I did for a living before I had to retire.

As far as why my posts are getting good feedback, why, I assume it's because I'm sticking to the facts, and not snarking off. But that's just my take on it.

All I said is that MagneGas doesn't have to be hauled around in pressurized tanks full of acetone as acetylene must be to avoid sudden detonations. I made NO representations as to its comparative efficiency as a metal-cutting gas or its purported ability to liberate more oxygen than is used during its combustion, because no one has produced anything other than anecdotal evidence to support those claims.

In fact, I asked that someone get Underwriters Laboratories (or another firm with the same reputation for integrity) to evaluate the claims MagneGas makes for its product.

If that makes me "someone's sock puppet," according to someone who signs as "Anonymous Poster #1," I want to know why. Perhaps "Anonymous Poster #1" works for a certain welding gas manufacturer in Tarpon Springs, Florida....

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#48
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/06/2012 9:28 AM

Jean, That is a very good idea regarding UL....

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#5

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 6:38 PM

I just lost one hour of writing by accidentally pressing the return button at the wrong time. I'll have to repeat a bit later on, life is taking a hold on me right now. Some interesting comments though. I'll do it in MS word later and not risk it going 'out' into the big black hole again, or is that 'into' only.

Sorry, Ky.

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#6
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 7:13 PM

Ky,

I believe that out is not necessary. I believe that, "not risk it going into the big black hole again," is fine.

I don't believe, "not risk it going in the big black hole again,"is right.

I believe that, "not risk it going 'out' the big black hole again", would not convey the correct meaning either.

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#7
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 7:50 PM

Yep, got that

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#8
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 8:18 PM

Regularly copy and paste into a program like notepad least you feel the annoying sting of a loss of work.

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#9
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 8:43 PM

It's all still there in my head. This way I save myself the editing later and do that in my head as well. It was all your fault any way because I wanted to include jack of all trades, as I have done here, and hit your profile by accident. Then I hit the return button and all was gone.

I'll be back, Ky.

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#12

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 11:27 PM

Told you I'd be back

Well, the only thing I can say for sure is that they have a bit more explaining to do. That this technology has come to this stage is thanks to some very smart people and in all fields of expertise. It is a bit of a shame that the people, who could understand what is going on in detail, are very limited and the rather sloppy presentation (Journalist?) does not do the technology (as far as I understand it) any favors.

Any one interested in this subject should be able to recognize the potential positives that come with such a system. If what they claim is true then it will find support. If they are crooks they will be found out. Red faces and a few disgruntled share holders, so what? A new casino was just opened in Singapore and it only cost 4 billion. You know how that can happen, don't we?

The financial documents are more of a let down but maybe they plan to just be honest. I am surprised though that with such an amount of R&D behind them, we are talking decades here, they are not up and running already, never mind the millions it will take in the future. If I had the funds I would demand to see more and so will the ones who can afford to send a specialist or two. There are guns for hire, you know.

Maybe it is a paradigm shift we are witnessing. Some aspects or views on Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics have been looking a bit shaken lately. Not the laws, no, but the possibilities how to apply them in the twenty first century. My research is partly concerned with some of the issues involved here and I know from personal experience that formulating a different approach can be very risky and that "The Old Guard" does not like to be doubted.

I will keep my eye on this and hope that all works out fine. There is no stronger fuel than hope, Ky.

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#16
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 12:14 AM

I'm with you...

If it releases oxygen in the burning process, then the synthesis was incomplete, and the energy stored is less than optimum. It takes energy to release oxygen, and that energy can't be used to power machines!

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#17
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 1:08 AM

It takes energy to release oxygen, and that energy can't be used to power machines!

I have read this a few times now and don't seem to get it. Could you elaborate a bit more, if you find the time.

It takes energy to release oxygen. From what and were to were?

that energy can't be used to power machines! Sorry, which energy?

I hope I'm not having a blond day and getting it all frack to bont again.

See what happens, Ky.

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#18
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 1:14 AM

" ...getting it all frack to bont... "

As long as you don't get your 'tang all toungled around your eye-teeth, then you won't be able to see what you are saying'. (or so my wise father has always told me).

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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 1:31 AM
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#22
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 2:08 AM

I have NOT analyzed what compounds they are using for fuel stock, nor whatever it is that they are producing as a fuel. I don't buy the hadron thing... From Wikipedia:"All hadrons except protons are unstable and undergo particle decay – however neutrons are stable when found inside the atomic nuclei"

It takes significant energy to ionize an atom (separate the electrons from the nucleus). It takes WAY more energy to break a nucleus into its hadrons (separate the protons and neutrons from each other). The fact that these guys use the word hadron tells me one of two things: 1) If what they are saying is true, then they will need humongous amounts of electrical energy, and as Chris and probably others said, all they are doing is moving the CO2 production elsewhere. OR 2) They are using words that very few people understand, hoping to lure investors (suckers) who are in awe of the words but have no idea of their meaning. I suspect the latter is more probable.

Now back to the Oxygen. If the process releases Oxygen, that Oxygen had to come from some compound. One possibility would be an alcohol. All alcohols have an -OH radical on one end. In order to release the oxygen, it is necessary first to separate the -OH from the rest of the molecule, then to separate the O from the H. both of those bond-breaking steps require energy. If that energy comes from burning the fuel, it is energy that can't be released as heat, and therefore can't propel a machine.

The fundamental concept of combustion is to combine oxygen with a fuel. This process is exothermic - gives off heat, and it is that heat that causes the expansion of gasses which in turn propel the machine (engine or whatever). If combining oxygen with a fuel is exothermic, then surely separating oxygen from a compound is endothermic - requires heat from somewhere. I'm no expert on this; I could be mistaken, but it would take a fair amount of explaining to convince me otherwise.

Do I make sense?

P.S. Right now we could use some of that energy! It's almost the last day of April, and here in the California foothills there is snow on the ground right now (640m above sea level). I've had a pretty good fire in the stove all day long. Time for a nice warm bed!

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#24
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 3:09 AM

Perfect sense;

In "clean coal" they 'forgot' the energy to obtain the oxygen to burn the coal to get the smaller exhaust, to 'sequester' 'economically'.

On best art, energy expended obtaining O2 to combine perfectly per kg of carbon was 315% of the heat energy resulting.

So, even if the station was 100% efficient in converting heat to power, it's incapable of running itself by a factor of 3.

Even if the O2 obtaining was 100% efficient - and the fuel perfect, recovery conversion 100% efficient - output is zero - it can't feed it self or run internal functions - never mind sequester the exhaust.

Sort of an understatement that the "energy providing the O2" is "unavailable to the machine".

Ky do you remember John Howard handing out the first grant of $60 million? I sure do - fastest I ever ran to keyboard in my life.

D.K, it's a fair bet this guy has "forgotten" his power bill.

Kyz

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#26
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 4:27 AM

OK, now I understand. Just want to make sure we are not talking about two different things. Thanks for that, Ky.

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#23
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 2:11 AM

"It takes energy to release oxygen, and that energy can't be used to power machines!"

Ky, I think the best way to grasp quite a few things in energy is looking at photosynthesis.

This is basically making and breaking CO2 and water, using solar power.

The solar input is equal to what you get recombining the carbon and oxygen (burning), less the energy for other breaking losses (H's off O's), which are not available in 'recovery', 'cause they're expended elsewhere.

You also need an ignition energy to start the reaction. And energy to raise all fuel mass supplied, to ignition.

These 3 exampled energies are 'unavailable' to a machine.

Kyz

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#25
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 4:17 AM

Hi Ky,

Oxygen can be released only from oxides where it is >>tied up<< with some other atom like in CO2 where it is Carbon dioxide, or H2O where it is tied to Hydrogen.

Now, this two compound chemicals could be break up using electricity, separating atoms, so in case of H2O we get Hydrogen and Oxygen each on one electrode.

Same thing is with CO2 or C2O, where You get Electrographite on one electrode and Oxygen on another.

That is way to remove CO2 from air permanently using electricity, which is at moment too expensive, but would not be when my WindSolars would produce 1 MW for 10 Euro or less, specially when mass produced and installed (they would have near zero Land Footprint, therefore no reason for not covering as much area as possible).

Anyhow, this electricity used in my example is energy that has to be spent, and of course what is spent cannot be used other where, right?

I am sorry that I am not able to see this Video, since I installed WIN7 and there is no 64 bit version of Media Player or anything else awailable.........

Therefore I am sorry that I cannot see what it is all about, perhaps new Project TOKAMAK?

If someone know where to look for 64 bit versions I would appreciate information.

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#27
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 4:37 AM

Hi Henrik

Just try some of the other links suggested earlier. They are just written material. Seeing the moving pictures is a waste of time and meant for the suckers. With your background you should be able to make sense of it, or like me, still not.

Greetings, Ky.

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#30
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Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 10:37 AM

Well, I skimmed over this as right now I have not much time.

Only common denominator that I can see are atomic covalences that are caused by quarks existing in hadrons.

Using electromagnetic resonance caused by high frequency magnetic field, it may be possible to break connections that hold atoms together inside chemical compounds, causing chemical compounds to disintegrate into free atoms.

Since materials they are converting are mostly hydrocarbons, perhaps resulting mix fast recombine to some simple sorts of hydrocarbons like Methane, Acetylene or other gaseous compounds, and some oxygen remain as surplus after such reactions.

Shown use of torch suggest Acetylene which is used with Oxygen in metal cutting torches.

So, IMHO, thing has some ground to function without spending much energy, but still there has to be energy source as depicted by Wind and Solar electricity sources.

I think there main point may not be energy production but trash elimination and converting into useful products.

So, even if total energy gain would be zero as some theorized, still useful work would be done as waste is removed from environment.

If they succeed to get even little energy surplus, it would be profitable, or at least enough to pay for installation and operating costs.

Actually, if they succeed to remove all kind of trash and waste, they should be paid for service as this would save land used to deposit waste. Perhaps old deponia could be digged and burned as well.

But, process would in the end generate large new quantities of CO2, even if this is kind of recycling trash.

If Methane is product of this process, it can be used to power vehicles, for cooking and heating, but also to synthesise Urates, artificial fertilizers for agriculture.

So trash and waste is recycled into CO2, which plants can reuse in photosynthesis to produce new food and other hydrocarbons like cellulose.

With additional energy expenditure it could be possible to remove Carbon in form of Electrographite and there would be more Oxygen released, and some of this can recombine with Hydrogen into water.

I intend to use cheap electricity produced by my Power Stations to do exactly this, as process is known and in use right now, just product is expensive due to high electricity prices.

In any case this would IMHO be much more useful than capturing CO2 by some chemical and then dumping useless product into old oil wells, as producing this chemical certainly produce more CO2 in first place......

So much for my 2 bits..........

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#31
In reply to #25

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 12:43 PM

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-windows.html

I'm not sure there is a 64bit version yet, but it is a very good player.

Chris

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#35
In reply to #31

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 5:12 PM

Dear Chris,

I still get message that I have to upgrade ADOBE FLASH PLAYER to look at YOUTUBE movies.........

So it is not for same purpose, or I would have to restart computer first.......

We shall see.....

Thanks anyway!

Regards,

Marijan Pollak

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#39
In reply to #16

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/03/2012 9:00 PM

Again, the assay from the MagneGas MSDS page,

http://www.magnegas.com/MagneGas-MSDS-Rev-03-09-19-11.pdf

says that this gas is:

69.5% hydrogen, 28% carbon monoxide, 1.4% methane, .67% nitrogen, 0.22% oxygen, and some other gases

My last stochiometry calculation was back in college, BUT - let's take a stab at it.

35 H2 + 28 CO + 1.4 CH4 + .33 N2 + .11 O2 -----> no free oxygen, just some water vapor and carbon dioxide or carbon monoxide, depending on how much oxygen was ADDED during combustion.

That's what I get, admittedly not a formal stochiometric equation, but back of the envelope, based on experience, what the reactants are apt to end up as after burning.

If Dr. Santilli wants to claim he gets free oxygen as a combustion product, that's his business. He's made other claims that are (prima facie) as out there or more so.

But if he wants me to believe them, he'll spend some of those millions he's gotten in a capital offering on evaluations of that claim by Underwriters Laboratories or another outfit with a large enough reputation that it wouldn't pay them to lie for money,

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#13

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 11:38 PM

My guess is substantially methane CH4 - so "much less CO2" per Watt out. About the same energy as LPG (high methane %). Can be made in a digester from all sorts of stuff, most of which got a mention. The "making oxygen" has me puzzled, unless they mean it has O2 (or air) in it, so oxygen is "provided" for combustion "in the fuel". Might also contain some ozone. If so - Fairly "Brave".

There is every chance that powering the process is releasing more CO2 than the fuels it's replacing. It's a common trick to just shift the CO2 evolution "off site" to make something "green" - E.g. Gas turbines for generation, syngas making etc.

HHO is not really compressible - so probably not that, as he still has a shed. But might be a small %.

Kyzine.

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/28/2010 11:56 PM

High Doc

"HHO is not really compressible"

Well, what if I told you that his cousin is a good friend of mine and he loves pressure. The more the merrier. He thrives on it.

So? What now? Is it compressible or not? I mean, really!

See Ya, ebulrm

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#20
In reply to #15

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 1:38 AM

Oh, No, Not the "is it compressible?" mega question!

Yes it is, but you tend to get a spontaneous bang out of it.

"The minimum energy required to ignite such a mixture with a spark is about 20 microjoules"

"Oxyhydrogen will combust when brought to its autoignition temperature. For a stoichiometric mixture at normal atmospheric pressure, autoignition occurs at about 570 °C (1065 °F)"

Squish it a bit and that lowers.

Squishing adds energy. Squishing fast adds lots - see line 2.

I vaguely recall a pressure at which it decomposes explosively - but don't see it on Wiki - check your American Institute of Physics Handbook

Have your cousin check out this US patent 3262872, note the springs and other relief provisions.

And a lot of "as see on TV"

Good luck to Cus.

Kyz

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 1:58 AM

That's the old stuff the granddad of them all. There are hundreds more, if not thousands. You would just love to know what I am on about, wouldn't you Kyz. Well the good news is that you will hear about it in your life time. The bad news is that I will just shut up about it.

It is not a position I want to be in. If I don't play it right I will get hurt. No, no, not by some exploding gasses but by indiscretion. If I declare myself my own cousin does that make me a hill billy? I hope I am not offending any one here.

Gosh its always fun with you Mate, hang around, Ky.

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#32

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 2:54 PM

Thanks! I enjoyed a really good belly laugh on this one. The website almost had me in tears. Suggest you watch them (to see when they close their doors), but save your investment money for something with a lot less poorly worded "snake oil" fiction.

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#40
In reply to #32

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/04/2012 7:06 AM

If it is "Snake oil" iz is in selling stage now, as one city here is prepared to buy this technology, with credit from EU. I suggested to mayor of the town to first demand to see iz in use, lest we become guinea pigs, and they should prove to him that their claims of getting molten metals separated, plastic and other things that such installation produce, beside more electricity than applied to start it since they claim process is self sustainable. Price tag is 50 million Euro, but just to get rid of garbage and recycle some materials without need to sort things out and melt them separately would be worth the price, as they perhaps can process the garbage of several nearby cities as well.

So, if it works like they claim, that would be wonderfull, but if this is demonstrable fact, why it is not already sold to all big cities by now? Maybe price tag is the reason, or perhaps others suspect dioksine is generated in not so insignificant quantities...

They also claim to capture electrons directly so no burning of anything is required, nor all usual things required to produce electricity by thermal process. There surely is lot of free electrons in Plasma so on face of it if they suceeded to channel them into wires as DC and direct them to power the process, then perhaps it is possible, and even logical.

New moment is also that it is supposedly been invented by some scientist from Russia who got Nobel prize for it.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/04/2012 8:14 AM

Using a plasma arc to break down hazardous waste into less harmful components IS one valid application. A plasma arc can also be used to break down other waste streams into combustible gases. However, unless ELECTRICITY is FREE, the process appears to be very inefficient and costly.

For hazardous waste decomposition and some specialized combustion gases, the high process cost may be justified and acceptable. For any other application, this seems to be a very poor use (waste) of electrical energy.

There doesn't seem to be anything new or novel here except a well crafted marketing strategy to hide a very inefficient conversion of one energy source to another.

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/04/2012 9:14 AM

True, but important result is elimination of waste that is standardly burried on deponia so it wastes land as well and polutes underground water with heawy metals and poisons released by burried waste degradation.....

If only problem is expensive electricity, then soon this would be no problem as my WndSolar Power Stations would be producing electricity at cost of 10 Euro per MW for start and after mass production lover the cost of manufacturing them, and specially because first users of WindSolars would be exactly factories producing their parts, at least half less...........

But, they claim that more electricity result from process than is spent and that metals in molten state are extracted and separated.

Well, let them prove it in practice, it is all that matters, and if no harmful chemicals are byproduct, then what is there to worry about?

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#50
In reply to #42

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/08/2012 12:58 PM

"True, but important result is elimination of waste that is standardly burried on deponia so it wastes land as well and polutes underground water with heawy metals and poisons released by burried waste degradation.....

If only problem is expensive electricity, then soon this would be no problem as my WndSolar Power Stations would be producing electricity at cost of 10 Euro per MW for start and after mass production lover the cost of manufacturing them, and specially because first users of WindSolars would be exactly factories producing their parts, at least half less...........

But, they claim that more electricity result from process than is spent and that metals in molten state are extracted and separated.

Well, let them prove it in practice, it is all that matters, and if no harmful chemicals are byproduct, then what is there to worry about?"

That's a whole lot of "if's."

I'm naturally suspicious of a process that claims to take a wide variety of feedstocks of various compositions and yield the same product regardless of what's put in.

I'm also sort of suspicious of the potential for dioxin formation at that spark gap after a motley mix of organics are fed into it (actually, Henrik, you raised that point in another post, but it's a good point).

Let's have a reputable third party like Underwriters Laboratories operate the MagneGas "refinery" as per spec with all the different feedstocks MagneGas claims to have used to get their product, and perform a chromatographic and/or IR absorption spectral analysis on what comes out every time.

"Garbage in, garbage out" is an old computer science adage. Maybe it doesn't apply to the MagneGas process. Let's find out, shall we?

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/08/2012 5:11 PM

Honored coleague,

I am also Systems Analyst and Systems Engineer like You, and also Economist, Business Adviser and Professional Problem solver.

I am also inventor of new kond of turbines for Wind, and I know how great opposition and suspicions are greeting me exactly from those that should understand first.

I have less trouble explaining how my turbine work to someone from vilage than to Dr.Sci.Prof. Eng. persons, because they were told it is "NOT POSSIBLE" and they for 40 years tell everybody and teach their students also it is impossible.

When calculating energy of the Wind entering turbine, they take first formula for extractable Kinetic energy instead of total energy and they do not even consider putting another formula, but when I ask why is there 1/2 in front, they say: It is such formula. They also claim that it is not possible to extract more than 59.3% from Kinetic Energy even on "Ideal" turbine with "Limitless number of blades". I ask them how it is possible to have turbine with so many blades when space is limited, and where can the air pass betwen blades of such turbine, then they stress it is "Ideal" turbine. Still it cannot (IMHO) work. Moreover, i tell them if this would be the ideal turbine then surely it would be only ideal if it can convert all Kinetic energy from the wind, not just 59.3%....

So I tell them, let's assume this turbine IS ideal, and can extract 100% of Kinetic energy from the Wind, but from total Kinetic energy contained in it.

So, wind with say speed of 10m/sec. enters turbine and turbine extract 100% of kinetic energy, then this air should stop dead in its tracks.

They agree it would be so. Then I ask what would happen next when more wind try to enter turbine. They say "You tell us". I say this wind would not be able to pass without pushing this stopped air forward. In this wind loses exactly half of its energy pushing stopped air, so only 50% of energy that could be extracted in spite of fact that turbine is 100% efficient.

That is why formula for "Extractable Kinetic energy" have 1/2 in front of that other formula for total Kinetic energy contained in the wind.

Then, I ask them how it is possible that Betz Formula predict 59.3% of energy as limit that could be extrracted, when I have just proven that even 100% efficient turbine can extract just 50%.

Then they start telling me how I understand nothing as I am not scientist nor Mechanical Engineer, that I am wrong because so many great persons like Bernouli, Newton and others have proven this formula correct.

Bull****!

I keep telling them my turbine is not such kind of turbine as described by Betz Law and that each formula work only under certain set of assumptions that must be fulfilled. So, my turbine has no blades nor paddles, instead of "uniform air flow across the wing" (which actually I doubt is happening on the blades on standard turbines as air is losing speed traveling over it) flow in my turbine is accelerated using Venturi Effect, first on the funnel built into turbine and then in air chambers that are also acting as funnels or Konfuzors, but which are square in crosscut instead of being round. Air is turned by 90 degrees twice and exit on turbine side trough oppenings that act as nozzles. So because there is some law of "Momentum Conservation" sam volume of air has to exit from my turbine in same time unit trough smaller opening, therefore it has to have much greater speed.

So, even in case of 100% effective turbine and that it work by extracting the Kinetic energy from the wind, resulting stopped air would be "deposited" on side of turbine and opening of nozzle would move on leaving more stopped air in other place, and theWind which have missed turbine entrance would collide with stopped down air and IT would spend half of its energy to push it forward.

Which does not concern me nor amount of the energy that entereed the turbine and was 100% extracted, right?

Now, I am describing what would happen on "ideal" turbine that work by extracting the energy from the wind that pass it trough.

But, my turbine does its best to let ppass all of the energy trough it and out of nozzles, and there it act like force aplied allmost tangentially on the turbine mantle.

Since according to Law of Action and Reaction for each force applied on some vector there arise equall forve of opposite direction on same vector, it is this force of Reaction that turns turbine and produce Torque force.

They say I have great loss of energy that went out and that my turbine would not even turn.....

I consider oposite, that I extracted 100% of energy that has exited from turbine, save for eventual loses due to change of direction of flow.

But, since air trough my Air Chambers travel radially, which is direction where also Centrifugal Force is at work, when turbine get speed, it is also pushing air in radial direction, thus adding to the speed.

Esteemed Proffesors remaind me that I cannot get energy from centrifugal force, but cannot deny that it is influencing air flow.

They also see turbine as static, and of course it would be static if it would not turn.

But, it takes time for any turbine to react on the wind if it is self starting, asinertia of system has to be overcome by force exiting nozzles.

I have made the prototype and it works even if it is just 31cm in diameter.

Still, everybody say it cannot be working and if by miracle it would turn it would be very inefficient use of the Kinertic energy of the Wind.

This prototype was tested provisionally in the Wind tunnel and produced 2W of electricity, which standard models with three blades if scalled down from MW range models to 31cm diameter cannot produce and at this wind speed cannot even start turning..

So I know how it is when you have something that work and nobody believes you.

In regard to this MagnaGas mixture, I must tell You that long way back when I was installing central heating pipes and radiators, man came with three bottles and welder torch. Before I saw Acetilene and Oxygen bottles only, so I asked what is it in third bottle, and he told me it was CO2, which surprised me as I considered it us usually product of burning. Obviously, in plasma state rules are changed.

So, if it work in practice, and if our laboratories that would be atesting thing for use did not find any toxic product released, then it would be used, and other cities would follow and buy such plasma garbage processing units.

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#47
In reply to #40

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/06/2012 3:13 AM

Henrik, Hi there, I'm reporting a response to a similar question on another thread:

"There are basically two operating modes:

o Total Mode - where the liquid is totally gasified

o Linear Mode - where the liquid passes through the arc and is sterilised

Total mode produces a gas which on the face of it is Syngas (65% hydrogen / 35% CO) but it cut metal similar, some say better than acetylene. If you know the industrial gas industry you quickly realise that being able to produce an oxy fuel in small to medium quantities without using dangerous materials (such as calcium carbide) is nothing short of revolutionary. The market dynamics are playing right into MagneGas' hand: acetylene costs are going up, quality is going down and due to a few unfortunate accidents acetylene plants are being closed or moved off-shore. Other gases are available but they don't cut metal well and use many multiples of oxygen, so with these other gases you pay a little less for the gas, get a worse cut and use much more O2. So before now the industry didn't have a very effective replacement - until MagneGas....

Regarding antifreeze I think you are asking in your own special way a question as to why they are using antifreeze? I'd be happy to answer your question: their facility in Tarpon Springs doesn't have permits to bring in liquid wastes so instead they are using antifreeze to create MagneGas. But still after depreciation there is a large profit to be made at distributor price not retail! This is very important for their business model as most other large users of oxy fuel don't have permits either so they simply bring in virgin liquid feedstock and they can do that without any problem at all.

Regarding Linear mode, it also produces a gas but the primary purpose of this mode is to sterilize liquid wastes such as sludge and sewage. I am not totally familiar with this market space but there is a unit operating at a sewage treatment facility in Italy that I have seen. This customer and there are many more like it in Asia cannot handle the growth in their sewage so they are getting their sludge trucked off at great expense, with the MagneGas unit operating they don't have to pay for this disposal and yet get a gas they can use in Cogen later. Actually I believe they are diluting the sludge a bit then passing it through the MagneGas unit to sterilise and then it can be discharged above ground as fertilizer....

Again I am not an expert here but industry and academia are becoming increasingly aware that sewage is one of the richest and largest waste streams in the world. It is very much untapped and one reason is the difficulty in assuring total elimination of e-coli and other nasty things. MagneGas can quickly and totally sterilise these waste streams.

In summary I hope you better understand the technology, regarding metal cutting it's a slam dunk success their sales are only limited by their bottle stock, regarding sewage treatment it is a slow slow industry but things are moving in the right direction.

That said the founder is controversial and some of his theories are even more so but the product works.

I'd be happy to answer any other questions you all might have. Thanks,"

So in reference to waste elimination it's really waste sterilisation right now.

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#36

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/29/2010 11:39 PM

From the magnegas.com website ...

To initiate his studies under DOE support, Dr. Santilli recognized that there cannot be really new, irreversible physical and chemical theories without a really new mathematics, because all pre-existing mathematics had no time arrow, thus being itself reversible over time. Additionally, Dr. Santilli stressed that there cannot be really new irreversible mathematics without really new numbers. These studies alone required more than a decade of research of purely mathematical character, and resulted in new mathematics today technically known as Santilli iso-, geno- and hyper-mathematics, or generically has hadronic mathematics meaning a new mathematics conceived for the structure of strongly interacting particles such as protons and neutrons called "hadrons", although also applicable to the interior of any physical medium. It should be noted that hadronic mathematics consists of new numbers, new spacetime, new differential calculus, new algebras, new groups, new symmetries, etc. Mathematical maturity was reach in 1996 when a purely mathematics journal (Rendiconti Circolo Matematico Palermo) dedicated one entire issue to Santilli new mathematics.

Or, the shorter version: "You won't undersnad our new maths and science stuff so don't even ask, just believe".

Or the shortest version: "Open wide and swallow".

Sorry fellas, this is 100% bullcaca. DZ

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

04/30/2010 2:32 AM

Yes, it certainly sound like he invented wheel all over again and it is 4 dimensioned and square, but he can prove it would roll.......

As far as I can see, he should only assume that time goes in one direction only and that some processes cannot be reversed.

When I think of it, some chemical reactions can be reversed but it is not by same process that created them, i.e. oxidation and redox processes.

But even his process is reversible, by same process that created materials which are decomposed, once his product is burned to CO2, therefore it is cyclic in reality.

Anyhow, such discovery would be so revolutionary that all scientists would have to study it and replace old mathematic and the rest with new one........

But the way it is worded, even if true, it sound like You say..........

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#52

Re: What's Your Take On These Guys?

02/09/2012 6:43 AM

All,

This is not a technical review but sheds some interesting light on MagneGas in Italy and in the USA:

http://www.hydrogenambassadors.com/magnegas/magnegas.html

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