Can Syngas Be Used As An Industrial Gas (As An Oxyfuel) To Cut Metal

How does the energy content compare to other gases?

Methinks you already know the answer.

I honestly have no idea about the calorific value of either Syngas or Magnegas. My question is specifically about Syngas. Thanks.

"The energy content of the gas depends on the approach used to supply heat to drive the gasification reactions. Most designs use oxygen, either in air or in its separated form, as an oxidizing agent to generate heat by partially combusting the biomass feedstock. When heat is supplied by partial oxidation with air (air-blown gasification), nitrogen in the air dilutes the product. The resulting gas is classified as a low-energy gas and has a heating value of approximately 2.5-8.0 MJ/Nm3. Low-energy gasifiers are best used in situations where the heat content of the gas is not a critical issue such as co-firing applications, district heating systems, and many electric generation systems."

That I knew but indirectly from industry comments but thank you for that. But does it cut metal in an oxy fuel torch? That is the heart of the question....

Look up the relative energy conten.......................

Never mind. _{<Removes self from conversation>}

Lyn, I think your mixing amount of energy in the fuel with the relative temperature of the combustion process. Note that propane and butane have similar combustion temps, even though the energy contents are somewhat different.

Syngas was used in WWII by occupied countries for cutting metal with O2...It was a measure of last resort....The H2 content is going to be related to the source and method of gasification, it must be scrubbed, and used in highly ventilated area, preferably outdoors....I don't recommend it....

Thanks for the intelligent comment. Why ventilated area and why scrubbed?

Syngas may contain particulate and toxic byproducts...

Ok, Thank you that I knew but wasn't sure if you were referring to something else. Cheers!

ANYTIME A FUEL IS BURNED, have adequate ventilation. ANYTIME!

Also, be vey careful setting up the cutting flame and getting the right mix. CO will also need some O2 to form CO2, or you might have a carburizing flame. (but you knew that already, right?)

Reid,

No! Carburizing the flame is new to me, I looked it up thanks for that!

This is my first post here and I pushed "reply" to a comment that tickled my funny bone however I'm not shure if it will show to what I replyed to and I'm neither shure what Syngas is ---- well it seemed to mention hydrogen & oxy so I thought this story might be relevant. [this top bit is an edit]

Don't you just love the whee comments in these posts !? , we too knew that he knew or rather, we suspected it and smiled to ourselves . you just couldn't help yourself so placed it in brackets , like we placed our tounges in our cheeks , only out loud .LOL.

I remember at the inventors trust meeting I've attended some 15yrs, a talk by a chap who used to market gas producing machines . He made small single phase machines , mainly for jewlers & the like, and one put water in the top of it, plugged it in and whala ! hydrogen and O2 to the torch . Nothing new here .

He went on to show photo's of him in Japan with 15 of the top companys reps watching as a worker cut through what appeared to be about two inches of steel useing this guys large 3 phse model gas producer.

He said the machines all produced gas on demand and at a cost of ONE TWENTY FIFTH the cost of oxy accetalene !! he later went on to explain how they were able to buy him out and shut him down ! Hmmm not surprising eh .

It was many years ago [ the talk] but a few thing I remember was him explaining how unstable working with hydrogen was/is and although I forget the reasons I remember him saying, much to the amusement of all listening , that he " got my hearing back after about tow weeks " on two occasions . [ he'd made a mistake and the thing he was working on blew up !] .

Welcome to CR4

That story? That's what they all say. The dangers of damaging ears is not new though

My college welding textbook (1973 copyright) had a small table with various welding gas flame temps

I assume Syngas might be slightly less, but you can try to test it and see how it works. Depends on how much CO you have.

If Syngas is such a common byproduct of many different processes why wouldn't someone bottle it and sell it as an Oxyfuel?? It most do a very poor job at it.

it will usually make more sense [efficiency] to use whatever source of energy directly

for example: using coal to make syngas as an intermediate step on the way to say diesel, is done because you have lots of coal & no diesel, not because the process is efficient

if in the process of chemical refining, syngas is a byproduct, this would in most cases indicate the process is less than Ideal

in many cases out of concerns for safety, the byproducts are thermally oxidised close to the source

Understood and agreed.

Ok, so has anybody on this forum actually cut metal with Syngas and Oxygen?

Or does anybody have a link showing that it can be done?

I have looked and looked but nothing.

Barring that I will try it myself....

Good. Let us kinow what you find.

Thanks Lyn, that message was not meant for you, I am hoping that some of the experts on the topic might be able to help me either with their direct experience or with a reference.

Thanks though.

it will be easier to help if you can tell us more about the source of the syngas, they are not all created equal

http://www.netl.doe.gov/technologies/coalpower/gasification/gasifipedia/4-gasifiers/4-3_syngas-detail.html

Garthh, thanks for your intelligent post and you are right so let me explain:

This syngas is coming from MagneGas Liquid Gasifiers.

The gas composition is almost identical no matter what liquid is used, 65%H2 and 35% Co, there are some trace gases but nothing more than 1% of anything.

The rub is that MagneGas cuts metal very very well but when some industrial gas experts look at the chemical composition they say "it's Syngas and therefore it is impossible that it cuts metal". We then go ahead and show them how it cuts and they say either the chemical composition is incorrect or what is in the bottle is not what it should be:

Video:

http://ir.stockpr.com/magnegas/media-center/view/223

Cryogas article:

http://www.cryogas.com/pdf/Link_Magic%20MagneGas_Davis.pdf

So I am trying to get to the bottom of this discrepancy between what industry experts say and what is the gas composition.

If the flame temp is high enough, it will cut metal. Producer gas has been used as a cheap cutting gas for many scrap yards. It might not be the hottest flame and therefore maybe not the fastest cut, but it can work.

Another issue might be gas impurities and potential effects on the edge of the cut, but I am NOT a cutting expert. I'm just sharing the llittle bit I do know from historic sources.

Ried,

Thanks so much for another intelligent comment, in the end one needs to balance out the good and the bad.

Anyway, yes! Producer gas is a generic term for Syngas as well so that is another good lead.

That's what happens when you ask for free advise!

you're running into the good ole boy effect

airgas don't own it so it must not work

there are certainly plenty of users of Brown's gas

what kind of storage pressures?

on the cutting rig what kind of tips, similar to propylene?

in other words how much would it cost to switch over

customers could run into problems getting their other gases, like oxygen & argon, if you were to gain much market share

Garthh,

MagneGas had the same feeling and not just from Airgas but other producers in other parts of the world. It wouldn't be the first time they were feed a pile of bunk from the Industrial Gas "leaders".

The link you sent is excellent excellent information because that was the proof I needed people are cutting successfully with Syngas derivatives and it's in the torch design possibly that makes it happen.... thanks so much!!!

The tips used to be two piece tips similar to propane but MagneGas has moved onto smaller two piece tips without the recess, that effectively brings the flame out closer to the metal instead of ignition starting in the tip. The orfice (suitable description for...never mind) in the central piece is smaller and the groves on the inside of the sleeve are smaller and tighter.

Pressures I don't know exactly but switchover costs are regulators, torches and training.

This message is directed at you.

It should be obvious to you, by now, that no one here has cut metal with syngas!

Also, finally, your true adgenda has appeared. So, you aren't just out to learn about sungas, that's jusy a ruse for your commercial friends or employers.

Why didn't you ask the real question in the first post?

Never mind. I don't want to know.

Lyn,

If I asked the question in the context of MagneGas it would have possibly influenced people's responses certainly chronically subjective people such as yourself, the question is about Syngas and the question still stands.

I am appealing to those people on this forum who God forbid have more experience than you in this matter and are interested sharing information for the benefit of others.

I hate to be rude but please do what you said you were going to do in your post #5:

Lyn: "<Removes self from conversation>"

The question was indeed in the context of Magnegas, so why hide it.

Why not be honest with the questions and your motivation for asking them.

I'll go quietly now, since I can't help you.

Good luck.

I agree with Lyn ask the question you want the answer to, by not wanting to influence people you have influenced people and wasted peoples time.

Grochy,

Thanks for your input, actually I think this thread worked out very well for everybody and I thank them for their input and interest in helping people.

The question has been answered:

Does Syngas cut metal: the answer is yes with the correct torch.

Good point but not completely correct.

The heat melts the metal, not cutting it. The added stream of high velocity O2 with the molten metal acts as an erosive hydro jet to actually cut the metal. Somewhat similar to water jet cutting, except instead of ambient temp water the process uses liquid metal and O@ at a very elevated temperature.

I'll stand my ground.

The metal is burnt to achieve a cut not melted.

According to wikipedia The metal is first heated by the flame until it is cherry red. Once this temperature is attained, oxygen is supplied to the heated parts by pressing the "oxygen-blast trigger". This oxygen reacts with the metal, forming iron oxide and producing heat. It is this heat that continues the cutting process. The cutting torch only heats the metal to start the process; further heat is provided by the burning metal.

That's what I was taught and 30+ years of experience on the tools confirms this cutting model.

I'll be happy to accept a revised cutting model with a citation.......

As I may have mentioned earlier, I am not and do not profess expertise in welding arts. I just provided what I remember being in older texts regarding fuel combustion temperatures. Based on the temps of H2 flame, it appears "syngas" can be used to cut metal.

I acknowledge your superior experience and knowledge about the actual process!

How very strange that GlobalReach does not already know this. Two months before this thread he was promoting syngas (the Magnegas brand) for cutting. He wrote:

• Roshan, MagneGas actually signed a distributor in India but things have been moving very slowly. MagneGas as a replacement to Acetylene is doing quite well, people in this industry could care less what the theories are behind it as longs as it cuts better and is safer than competitive gases.

It seems equally incredible that he is unaware of the uses of Brown's gas (HHO), given that the Magnegas "main guy" Dr Santilli, is an HHO enthusiast.

What a world.

Has anyone evaluated the danger of the carbon monoxide in this gas? (H2 and Co are typos; they should be H₂ and CO respectively.) One might also wonder about trace amounts of H₂S and/or SO₂.

1% of trace gases, may be significant depending on what it is...

Ok,

Checked my notes from a dutch lab report in addition to H2 and Co:

CO2 was 7.236%

Methane was 0.904%

Acetylene was 0.300%

Then it was in the 0.00X% and I have no notes on that

It would be nice to see what is in a bottle of to Acetylene see what sort of dangerous chemicals are present, does anybody know?

It would have been nicer to see the individual fractions of H₂ and CO (and also correction of the typos.)

The 7% CO2 is probably not a toxicological problem; don't know about GWT (global warming potential).

C₂H₂ of 0.3% also probably a non-issue. (I haven't yet heard of problems even in conventional C₂H₂ supplies, but I don't mean to rule out such questions.)

Tornado,

Thanks so much for posting an intelligent comment.

I will look at my notes on the chemical composition of MagneGas tomorrow and post them here.

It is interesting that this question comes up, since the variations of formulation of Syngas are quite large. It also maters which metal one wishes to "cut" is very important, too. Syngas, at some expense can be made into acetylene, the normal metal cutting fuel. however, syngas can mean bio-gas, methane, sewer gas, etc.

(BTW, it seems the spell check for CR4 is not set of chemical and science terms, this should be corrected.)

Now, I must say howdy to Garthh, long time no see, old man. take a look at my latest website: http://www.chtank.org/

The problem with a low energy fuel is getting the work up to the oxygen reacting temperature.

Acetylene is the common choice because its hot enough to raise a small area quickly enough to defeat conduction.

LPG and the like, can only do that on thin material and the time taken and heat affected area is far greater before the cut can commence.

Agree. Acetylene will be quicker to heat up the metal due to a 900F hotter flame temperature.

The economic analysis has to factor in the disadvantage of slower cutting or welding times.

Starting a cut has more to it than just the flame temperature.

Compactness, 'rigidity' and size of 'hot spot' have great bearing. Think of it as Watts density - and this characteristics mix, acetylene is supreme ^{_{(in the traditional non-plasma technology)}}

So indeed the 'experts' are not saying it can't be done with low energy fuels "technically". And it's not just 'economics', it's also a quality and performance farce for the serious oxy cutter.

After all, "technically", the flame of a disposable cigarette lighter is "hot enough", but let's see you start a cut with even 1000's of those preheating.

The easiest way to thermally cut steel with your Syngas is to convert the Syngas to electricity, run an air compressor, hook the air up to a Plasma Cutter, plug the plasma cutter in, turn it on and start cutting. No bottled oxygen required, there's enough in the air.

LOL

That's what I'd do too. In fact we do do at one location where LPG is the only viable gas supply.

Of course this is 'cheating' in terms of the OP.

Then again, as Lyn hinted, it does read a bit like the OP is looking for free expert testimonials

I guess we have both joined the "experts" who canned it

I think I'll give your post that earned "Good point but not completely correct" a GA to make it clear who knows what to any visitors.

34point5,

I was seriously asking if it Syngas could cut metal, I have heard so many different responses it was quite frustrating.

Garthh nailed it completely with that link to torches designed for using browns gas, that was the first time I had ever seen proof of if it worked or not.

Seriously I am very grateful and say thanks to those of you who added value to this discussion

BAHAHAaaaaaaaaaaa "completely nailed it" ahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Wot U actually didn't get that that was up there with posting an adult toy on an 'over unity' thread?

Browns gas; HHO

Syngas: CO+HH

spot the difference?

It has been a very long time since I have commented on this forum. Please forgive me, I have been busy. I do wish to add some important major information that does concern the topic of syngas and renewable energy.

I have "retired" from my Website CHTANK.ORG. As I am rapidly approaching the completion of my 80th orbit of the sun I find I am simply unable to keep up. I am still the founder and owner of CHTANK.ORG but have named Mr Roderick Whitfield as the Executive Director of the website and Mr Jessee McBroom as his Deputy Director. Both Gentlemen are highly qualified engineers, both are active on Facebook and especially active on LinkedIn. Both of their email addresses are available on CHTANK.ORG

When Mr Whitfield took command of CHTANK.ORG, he presented CHTANK.ORG/CHAPS to the United Nations Sustainable Energy for All Foundation which was excepted a participant. I am very humbled and honored, to say the least.

Also, Mr. Whitefield plans to incorporate the CHAPS Project as a 501c3 in the near future. Note that I have already declared that CHTANK.ORG is a nonprofit organization, funded only by me, for the expressed purpose of promoting continued adult education via Distance Learning and for promoting the tools for Sustainable Engineering for the masses.