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Curved Space?

07/22/2010 5:45 PM

Vectors plotted on a Euclidean plane obey certain logical rules. If you travel a mile in any direction, then a mile at right angles to it, and repeat twice, you get back to the starting point, but if you do this on a curved surface, you end up somewhere other than the origin.

I was musing on the idea that there might be an analogous domain where 2+2≠4, or perhaps, 2x2≠4.

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#1

Re: Curved Space?

07/22/2010 7:13 PM

Wait, you have not defined how you determine your path relative to the curved surface. I am assuming you are traveling along the outer surface boundary of the sphere, which implies curved paths, not linear lines.

If your path follows the great circle path along a sphere, you should end up at the origin. A great circle is either an arc or a circle where the origin or radius of the arc coincides with the radius of the sphere. For instance, a great circle of 360° will perfectly divide a sphere into two equal halves.

The problem is that you must compute your path in 3 dimensions and all paths must be relative to the sphere's origin at the sphere's center. In the case of an arc 1 mile long, the arc's radius must be the same point in 3-D space as the sphere's central radius. Complete three more arcs, each 90° of each other and you will return to the start of the first arc.

The art of mapping deals just with these types of problems. The problem is translating or projecting the curved surface of a sphere onto a flat surface always results in distortions in the map. There are literally scores of different types of map projections and the type employed depends on the use they are tasked to do.

If you draw my example I cited of four 1 mile arcs each 90° from each other on a flat map you would have four curved lines. The degree of curvature and the curve type depends on the type of map projection you use, but no matter what projection type you choose at least some of the lines must be curves and they will not appear to be of equal length.

The bottom line is, there is nothing mystical about transversing the surface of a sphere. Everything still adds up (i.e., 2+2 still equals 4). It is just mathematically more complex compared to a 2-D flat plane, which is where most of us have performed the bulk of their math and geometry lessons in school. That is why it is harder for us to wrap our brain around the problem unless you have specifically worked a lot of 3-D mapping problems, then it becomes second nature.

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#8
In reply to #1

Re: Curved Space?

07/23/2010 10:55 PM

the number of displacement variables must match the number of dimensions in order to simulate reality.

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#2

Re: Curved Space?

07/22/2010 10:30 PM

Yes, such regions are known to exist. One example is the U. S Treasury Department; another is inside the event horizon of the black hole at the center of our galaxy.

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#6
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Re: Curved Space?

07/23/2010 8:29 AM

You missed the point. You should reread the original post before answering. The Treasury Department does not exist in curved space, but is a product of twisted space. ;-)

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Curved Space?

07/23/2010 12:01 PM

Oh, the Treasury is a product of Congress. I should have considered that.

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#3

Re: Curved Space?

07/23/2010 1:12 AM

What color is the bear?

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Curved Space?

07/23/2010 7:37 AM

White!

/Hey, no fair, Tornado; you're already in Alaska.

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#4

Re: Curved Space?

07/23/2010 2:45 AM

23 + 23 = 113

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#9

Re: Curved Space?

07/24/2010 10:15 AM

What ever you're using to test this might be moving while you're doing this.

On a geographic scale, the further north you go the shorter the nautical mile becomes.

With each degree north you move the latitudinal lines move closer together but each degree is still 60 nautical miles.

GPS and Loran navigational aids have corrections they input into their calculations so everything works correctly but if you take two charts that are the same scale but one is for Southern California and the other is for Washington State, you'll find the about a 200 yard difference in the nautical mile.

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#10
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Re: Curved Space?

07/24/2010 12:54 PM

Definition of Nautical Mile:

noun

a unit used in measuring distances at sea, equal to approximately 2,025 yards (1,852 m). Compare with sea mile .

A nautical mile is the same distance no mater where you are on Earth.

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#11
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Re: Curved Space?

07/24/2010 1:05 PM

I served in the U.S. Navy as an Operations Specialist. In normal practice what you said is true, however I served on minesweepers in the Arabian Gulf and we used what is called the ISS/Hyperfix system to pinpoint mines in the water right down to within a few yards to give a plot to a Bomb Disposal Unit Diver to go down and diffuse the mine. The only way we could supply such a plot was having accurate navigational information and to do that we had to correct the input for the nautical mile for that area we were operating. Actually when you get up north in the upper part of the unted states the nautical mile is more like 1820 yards.

You can take two different charts of the same scale but one depicts a northern more region than the other and take your dividers and measure the distance from one and transpose it to the other and find they do not match.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Curved Space?

07/24/2010 1:16 PM

I thought the Nautical Mile was 'one minute of arc, subtended at sea level'. which is actually an angular measurement with the vertex located at the gravitational center of the earth.

so it actually does matter where on earth you are. so the actual distance involved does vary depending on your height above sealevel.

Chris

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#13
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Re: Curved Space?

07/24/2010 2:08 PM

You forgot one itsy bitsy piece of information with that definition...

That only applies to the meridian about the equator.

Also, modern day interpretation is at the Earth's geoid rather than sea level, since sea level varies depending on where you are on Earth.

The geoid is the mean seal level if all seas were at absolute equilibrium, but they are not, so an artificial level was created and called the Earth's geoid.

I don't know what the Navy was doing with compensation with the nautical mile, but in aviation and GPS, both of which I have been involved with, a nautical mile is a constant. However, like all measurements, it has been refined through the years.

I suspect the compensation that was applied had something to do with the actual variation of sea level at the specific location you were at and this was all before GPS was utilized.

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#14
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Re: Curved Space?

07/24/2010 2:41 PM

thank you. ga.

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#15
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Re: Curved Space?

07/27/2010 7:39 AM

Anonymous Hero, thanks for all the value information you bring to the CR4 group.

Nice to invest you time in this forum.

cheers

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#16

Re: Curved Space?

07/31/2010 11:46 PM

Another possible fly on the ointment is that the Earth is not a sphere. It is an oblate spheroid. This could account for a difference in "1 degree of arc" when translated to feet.

Imagine a tennis ball sitting on the ground (a sphere). If you step on it, the height becomes less, and the width becomes more. This is an oblate spheroid.

Bill

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