Retaining Sandy Hillside During Underground Home Building

Dunno what natural materials you have available? I'd say long thin wooden stakes doubled over like staples pinning down brush wood, netting, car tyres, cardboard waste, politicians, bankers or similar.
Longterm, I'd try to get some vegitation of some sort growing on it.
This could of course be bonkers as it's not my field of expertise, and you don't really explain the scale of the problem.

As for flooding, a ditch around the perimeter a good way off to encourge the drainage away from your site?

Good luck, it sounds like a fun thing to be doing...If I had the time and resources I have now 30 years ago I'd love to build my own place.
Del

Thanks for the reply. We can definitely come up with some materials to cover the hill side after it's dug out and while we're making the foundation & dome. That's a good idea. I know we have to back fill with gravel of different sizes before putting the sand back & then probably burlap and grass seed with other landscaping. The dome will be 50 foot in diameter & 30 feet tall which includes a 5 foot stem wall (on bottom before dome wall starts). Thanks again.

If the soil that you wish to build this home on is that unstable. Why would you choose to build there in the first place. What would keep it from doing so after the home complete. Or the weight of the home from settling into it.

You can't walk away from 483 acres that you don't have to buy!! :) The other thing is that it's not quicksand and dome homes even float during an earthquake!! Another reaso we're building underground is because the prairies frequently catch on fire. Dome homes that are even built above ground survive fires with no problems but a little scorching!! Even if there is a tornado, which does happen occasionally, being underground, we'll be safe from that too.

We're building the foundation & dome with rebar and concrete.

This is not my field but I think if you remove sand behind the site and build the dome onsite then fill the sand back in. If this is like a dune that you are building into then cut aay the sand and build like a break wall of concrete. thus repeating this several times. Build your home then fill in the sand covering the concrete. Using vegetation as a long turn way of controlling the movement of the sand. If I remember correctly you are going to need a concrete pad for the dome anyway. So good luck.

Although we have some fine civil engineers here, this looks like a problem requiring local knowledge of the soil. Maybe there are some desert dwellers who have experience building on sand.

Maybe inject a stabilizer( cement) around the perimeter to form a berm or wall around the outside of the house? Or dig, form and pour a wall?

Sounds cool.

I have considered building into the southern side of a hill back on the farm in Ark..

Good luck.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, we'll have to consult one if not many civil engineers. We also live in Arkansas right now, in Bee Branch, which is north of Conway. We have remodeled a two story 3000 ft. barn looking home. I was so glad to save this house from becoming too far gone to fix. We have to sell this home before we can build in Nebraska but we think we can build the shell (foundation & dome) till then.

Reading your last sentence reminded me about shotcrete which we'll use on the dome. We could shotcrete the hillside too!!! Thanks, that will work. I also just remembered a "Dirty Jobs" episode that they used Guar Gum shot all over a hillside to hold it there till the grass grew back. I need to google that and see how much it costs!!! Thanks

I'm east of Hot Springs. (About once a year, in Oct.)

My avatar is the barn in Minn. we bought to preserve the character of the neighborhood. The owner was going to build a duplex on the front part of the property. We have the house next door, too. I couldn't stand to have a duplex there. It's close to the birthplace of Laura Ingalls Wilder.

Good luck. We really like pictures. Send us some as the project progresses. You could even do a blog.

Have you considered sheet piles around the perimeter? That should stabilize the hillside until the place. Then remove the piles. I hope this helps. I am in the gulf coast area. This is how we prevent wet sand from collapsing into the area of work.

45 years ago I was a young Navy Civil engineering officer stationed at the Navy Auxiliary Air Station Whiting Field a few miles northeast of Pensacola, FL, in the panhandle. I was working in the Public Works Department and one of the things we had to deal with was drainage off the airfield pavements.

The soil at Whiting Field is mostly sand with a healthy vegetation cover as one might expect of the Gulf Coast. Even in the worst summer thunderstorms the water that hit the ground would sink right in. Puddles were rare. But where it streamed off the pacements it would rapidly erode the soil. So the entire station was drained by a network of concrete line drainage ditches. On the south side of the station the drainage ditches led to an established creek. But on the north side there was no such natural drainage. So some distance from the station boundary the drainage poured into a low area. After some 20 years of operations there the water had carved a canyon in the sand some 30 feet deep and over 100 feet wide. This is instructive.

My recollection of that area was that virtually all the structures from small dwellings up to admin buildings, hangers and heavy industrial buildings were built on slabs.

The air station Public Works department had quite a bit of heavy construction equipment for various maintenance and repair projects including road building equipment for keeping up the various graded perimeter roads. Some time before I came there a young public works officer had brought in a sheepsfoot roller, typically used for compacting soil such as under a paved road and towed by a decent sized tractor.

The oldtimer civil service maintenance guys had only one use for that thing and that was to have fun with the young engineering officers like myself to find out how much we really knew. That was because sand doesn't compact. (I escaped that ritual claiming ignorance born of my mechanical engineering specialty)

Anyhow, I suspect there is a good bit of knowledge of building on sand in that area among construction folks and building codes.

Ed Weldon

There will be some interesting reading found on the Google results on

GEOTEXTILE

Mark
Relativity PL

this idea was originally posted to the 'shipping containers for Haiti' thread, but might be something you want to consider. basically if you can find something underground to tie to... (do you mean it goes down 1000 feet vertically before hitting bedrock?)

you may also want to get a geological and structural engineer to have a go at designing something... there are probably existing ways to deal with the sand.

if all you have is sand, you are probably looking at deep pilings.

good luck

chris

I strongly recommend you to get a PE / Civil Structural Engineer to design this thing for you. Going on your own, even if its concrete & steel, you still are jeopardizing your hard earned money and your own safety.

A few more $$ and you can get a qualified Engineers to design this out for you. Good luck in this venture. If you have doing it on our own .. you need more good lucks every time you are in this house.

Br\\
Fareed

Your final structure needs to be in itself a single unit. Really a sort of "ship of the sand" that no matter what happens around it, it just "stays" where its put.

The vegetation is important as well both for looks and stability.

Keeping rainwater away means that:-

a) you MUST look at the lie of the land and pick a site where rainwater WILL NOT RUN TO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

b) Collect the rainwater for use in keeping your foliage green and healthy. Pick plants that will flourish in the sandy conditions that you have.

Build on the top of a mound if possible as the wind and weather effects should be easier to understand.

Do not forget the effects that wind can have on unstable sand....

Club together with other builders to pick their brains and offer your ideas back.....

Let us see some pics when its finished and the best of luck in your endeavours.....

I am not sure if your dome home was same as mine gut I had sand on one corner and it caused no problem and I did have a qualified engineer check it out for stability. You can view my home at www.domehome.ca. There can be many pitfalls in this type of building and I experienced many of them. They can all be avoided with careful attention to detail and some quality consultation. I would not be too concerned about loosing soil during construction unless you received a once in 100 year storm. My contact info is on the web site. Wonderful homes if done correctly.

That must rate as the world's most boring website...

I could not be bothered even to look for photos, which should of course be prominent on such a website!

UGH!!!!!

I gather that you just need a way to hold the sand in place while you excavate the foundations and the underground portion of the house. The remedy is sheetpiles - great flat panels that are driven into the ground before excavation. The more sophisticated versions are interlinked by a sliding connection, and are driven alternately so that they continue to overlap over most of their length. You might not need to do that - just drive the piles so that they slightly overlap, then tie them together with wales as you dig down. Of course, the sheetpiles need to extend downward beyond the eventual footing/basement floor level. With nothing but sand, sand, sand for a thousand feet down, you should have none of the usual problems in driving the piles.

Look up "sheetpile" in a civil engineering text to get the gory details.

Contrary to what some are writing, it is possible to have stable foundations in sand; in fact, it's far less dangerous than some kinds of soil - expanding clay comes to mind. I'm assuming you plan a raft-type foundation and shearwalls to handle local subsidence?

As a Professional Engineer / Civil - Structural Engineer of over 30 years that has personally designed several reinforced concrete Earth Shelters, I strongly recommend that you obtain the services of both a QUALIFIED Geotechnical Engineer and a Structural Engineer (both licensed & Registered in Nebraska).

First, no matter where you build this home on the sand dune you will be facing constantly shifting sands, and yes even landslides, because sand is not cohesive nor compatible. You cannot rely solely on a vegetative cover to retain the soil mass; most undoubtedly the Geo-tech Engineer will recommend placement of temporary (and possibly a permanent) steel sheet piling in the upward slope of your excavation. Do not attempt to do this yourself without the written instructions/plans from this type of engineer.....the uphill slope of sand, even if it is moist, will be highly unstable and prone to sliding directly into the excavation, hereby burying your work site, equipment and possibly killing and/or injuring everyone within the work excavation. Also, the downhill slope may become unstable due to the excavation and extra weight imparted by excavated soil all around the work area/excavation....your concrete slabs,walls and dome may end up sliding down the sand dune to it's toe.

You will need to obtain the service of a Structural Engineer to adequately design the reinforced concrete dome and the house walls to structurally resist tremendous earth loads. Do not believe that you or your husband have the adequate knowledge base to correctly estimate the magnitudes of these lateral and gravity loads acting on the structural concrete members of the house, let alone know how to design these structures, as in my experience most layman (even if they're Contractors or have had a limited amount of engineering schooling) do not have or retain the knowledge, design skill sets, and engineering judgement to do so. In essence you'll be only fooling yourselves to save a few Bucks, will most definitely be playing with fire and burning yourselves, and ultimately placing your lives and those helping you during any phase of the construction in tremendous peril.

Please let us know how you plan to proceed and afford us updates of your work. Again, I can't stress any more the importance of my recommendations to you both. Good luck with your housing venture!

Signed,

CaptMoosie, LPE / PhD

Civil/Structural/Environmental/Transportation Engineer

Upstate New York

GA loxy. There's nothing line wisdom from people "on the ground".

Ed Weldon

GA loxy

"thinking" - I like it.

Much nicer than; 'bombastic blowhards, who have never done it, fear-mongering about "qualifications" of artisans actually doing it on daily basis' - as I was 'thinking' of posting.

So just as well you posted - not me - ay

any use ?

Slope stability

• File Format: Microsoft Word - View as HTML
  If you pour dry sand out of a bucket into a heap on the floor it will form a .... large) even building some distance from the case of the slope can be effected. ... roots and animals) can also have an effect, especially in soft cliffs. ...
  www.abdn.ac.uk/mrm/MR2502/Slope%20and%20cliff%20stability.doc
• Buglife | Advice on managing BAP habitats | Maritime Cliffs and Slopes Soft cliffs often form less steep slopes and are therefore more easily ... wet muds required by many species of solitary bees and wasps for nest building. ...
  www.buglife.org.uk/conservation/.../maritimecliffsandslopes
• How-to build a patio - Get Advice - How to Article Another important feature is to make sure the patio has a gradual slope (25mm ... For a good mix use a ratio of 3 shovels building sand, 1 shovel of soft ...
  www.getintogardening.co.uk/getadvice/howtoarticle/26 - Cached
• [PDF] Guidelines for Building a Concrete Brisket Slope for Loose Bedded ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
  Guidelines for Building a Concrete Brisket Slope for Loose Bedded. Freestalls ... up the slope a little, while smaller cows sink down into the soft sand. ...
  www.vetmed.wisc.edu/dms/fapm/.../guidelines_brisket_slope_freestalls.pdf

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this ones better.

1. [PDF] Building on Sand Dunes File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
   The Risks of Building on Sand Dunes – Page 1. 1. INTRODUCTION. This document is intended to outline the broad issues and problems where development and sand ...
   www.shoalhaven.nsw.gov.au/council/pubdocs/.../Bldg_on_Sand_Dunes.pdf
2. Cronulla sand dunes, Kurnell Peninsula - Wikipedia, the free ... The sand has been valued for many decades by the Sydney building industry, ... to be an ongoing problem amongst community groups and environmentalists. ...
   en.wikipedia.org/.../Cronulla_sand_dunes,_Kurnell_Peninsula - Cached - Similar
3. Sand mining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It also destroys fisheries, causing problems for people who rely on fishing for their livelihoods. ... Main article: Cronulla sand dunes, Kurnell Peninsula ... The sand has been valued for many decades by the building industry, ...
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_mining - Cached - Similar Show more results from en.wikipedia.org
4. coastal dune erosion Removal of, or damage to, dune vegetation exposes sand dunes to high coastal winds and ... fire or building works will ultimately cause erosion problems. ...
5. A guide to managing coastal erosion in beach/dune systems Coastal dunes accumulate sand blown inland from the beaches in front of them ... Problems can also arise when accretion dominates, because the excess of sand ... driving vehicles over dunes, the removal of sand for building materials or ...
   www.snh.org.uk/publications/on-line/.../erosion/2.2.shtml - Cached - Similar
6. [PDF] Coastal Sand Dunes HAP 2010 File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
   The key dune building grasses in Sussex are Marram Grass and Lyme Grass. ... Nutrient enrichment resulting from dog fouling can cause problems in sand dune ...
   www.biodiversitysussex.org/file_download/116/
7. Sand dune - Country Report, Great Britain - Coastal Wiki 15 Jan 2009 ... It attempted to provide a description of the sand dune vegetation, sites and conservation issues throughout Europe including Scandinavia, ...
   www.coastalwiki.org/.../Sand_dune_-_Country_Report,_Great_Britain - Cached - Similar
8. Los Alamos National Laboratory: History: Building the Atomic Bomb ... Because of serious problems in producing uranium, the plutonium problem put the ... region near the Great Sand Dunes National Monument in southern Colorado ...
   www.lanl.gov/history/atomicbomb/trinity.shtml - Cached - Similar
9. Sand dunes (images of British biodiversity) page 1 ness dune building out from the coast;; tombolo where sand is deposited in a .... This may pose conservation problems where rich slacks adjoin popular beach ...
   www.bioref.lastdragon.org/habitats/Dunes1.html - Cached
10. Coastal Management Issues in the Barcelona region 27 Sep 2009 ... The indiscriminate proliferation of buildings and infrastructure ... sand are something of an eyesore and merely pass the problem on to ...
    geographyfieldwork.com/Coastal%20Locations.htm - Cached - Similar

My goodness Peter, that is a lot of good information!

Normally people find that sand is not a good base for a building...that you have to build a sort of ship which floats in it. You have to be careful that holes don't just fill in and trap workers! (What Capt. Moosie said...take that VERY seriously! Its life and death that is!) That being said, if you take precautions, and make a big enough pad, even the sand will support a surprisingly heavy weight...I supported a 15 by 30 foot post and beam building on four 2 foot by 2 foot pads and it was steady as if I had built on rock. The building codes said it would, I followed those, and gosh darn it, they were right!

However, you didn't post on this forum to find old boring building methods! You want crisp, new, exciting building methods! I can help with that!!!! One of the best methods is Magnesson's rather innovative way to consolidate sand dunes which he is using in Africa.

yeah... he turns the sand dunes into sand stone. Really! Using the same natural process that nature uses! Its quick, quicker than excavating the sand. Its solid...the pyramids of Egypt are built from this stuff! It is engineering at its most exciting and cutting edge.

Please check out Mr. Magnessons' TED talk here and let me know what you think!

Is this to be a monocoque concrete dome, or stick-built on top of foundation walls?

I live in a dome house built on a slope, but the foundation is cinder block, forming a walk-out basement. It's the biggest room of the house, and the only one without sloping walls. You'll come to appreciate that, so I recommend building a full height basement.

I didn't build our dome, but I could tell you lots more about the pitfalls and quirks of living in one- but that's a topic for another thread when you get further along!

One of the most popular methods for earth retention is steel sheet piles. http://www.skylinesteel.com/

While it may seem cost-prohibitive, in the long run, you will save a lot of future heartache and problems.

In addition to retaining the earth during construction, sheet piling offers very good foundation support for permanent structures.

I would advise contacting a sheet pile or even a crane contractor in your area.

I can't thank ya'll enough for all the replies. First let me clarify the dome. On the foundation will be a 5 ft. wall first, then the cement dome will be built on top of that "stem" wall. The hill side is no more than 100 ft tall with a gradual slope. It is part of a pasture for cattle ranching so already has grasses & some bushes to retain the sand and yes, the sand is 1000 feet deep per the University of Nebraska. I was looking for bedrock too. I have started to google the "Hydromulching" which I think will be the most inexpensive way to hold the sand. I just don't know if it's the BEST way, so have a lot of research to do yet. Cement walls will be much more expensive since when we back fill the dome, what ever we use will be covered. As for Sheet Piles, we had not considered them and I haven't researched those yet. We will look in depth at both and find out which will do a good job and is economical too. It may be that a combination of the two would turn out to be best, the Piles on the steepest part and the Hydromulching on the gentle slopes. We'll see. Thanks to ab72756 for the info about the sand. (If that's your birthday, my son was born on 72786!) Also thanks to peterg7lyq for all the search threads. I'll copy them and check them out. Yusef1, I just watched the video and it's AMAZING!! That would be so cool to take a house size container with a water soluable mold in it of the reverse part of the house. Pour in the sand, add the bacteria, the sand turns to stone, stop feeding the bacteria, they die, add water to dissolve the mold and PRESTO a stone house in a day!!! WOW! Totally cool! Thanks so much! My first few questions would be, what do the bacteria eat so that you could stop feeding them when you wanted them to stop making the sand into stone and if they are in a sand hill, how do they get the food. This is really great. Magnus Larsson said the bacteria work in a day, so they would make the dome really fast and cheap!! You could even have a stone 2^nd floor! I'll have to really do some homework now!

I thank everyone who is concerned about this project. We definitely know we need professional advice, so we will find them as soon as we start and as we progress.

I have built one and there are lots of pitfalls. Feel to contact me through the www.domehome.ca web site.

I am reminded of a statement in a rammed earth building book I own, and it has stuck with me for years. "You won't believe in rammed earth until you have rammed up a block, propped it on an angle in the back yard and let the rain hit it for a year. Then your faith will be unshakable." I feel that this same statement will apply to Mr. Magnusson's remarkable concept. I am really tempted to try this out. There may be other uses for it....would this make a sort of concrete? Could you cast a stone driveway with it? Or will this discovery be suppressed by the concrete lobby?

This is certainly the correct forum to report on such a radical building method, and for good or ill, I hope to see a LOT of the astounding engineers here on CR4 commenting on Mr. Magnesson's building method.

Here's some stuff about Compressed Earth Block, which is a deviation of rammed earth construction

A commercial electric block press

Here's some open source design stuff

We talked about this a bit on the shipping container housing threads

a percentage of portland cement is mixed with local soils to produce stabilized blocks