Stimulating the Economy the Real Way

GA Anonymous Hero

"It is not easy" is an understatement. It is very, very complex and if one is not smart enough to recognize that the business plan comes first and the invention, one has already lost the game. Preparing such is harder than any prototyping could ever be and only complete engagement in the whole process will bring success.

I just had difficulty even spelling that S word and have had none so far but am playing by the rules and will do as I am told, or better obey common sense. Being assisted and encouraged by friends to walk that wobbly tight rope helps but is no guaranty whatsoever.

Nothing comes from nothing and the day one finalizes whatever one wants to put to the public and make them buy the product, one will have recognized an even more demanding pursuit and that is to deal with the international patent law and its ways and means to make you pay until the cows come home, and then a bit. Service from there side: Do not expect any, at all, just bills and they can be crippling and one can lose ones mind over this injustice. I am talking about a single identity inventor and not inventing for a large company with funds set aside for this.

Would I suggest to anyone to go all the way? A clear yes from me! But then, I love what I do and live my life accordingly.

Yours faithfully, Ky.

Hey marcot,

great idea. It is very similar to Ky's thread to assist inventor's within CR4. There are 450 or so posts.. but no angels. they are hiding in the woodwork, so if you know some.. bring them here... the inventors will come...

I've got a few ideas myself looking for investment... so even some solid practical knowledge on business plan writing would not go astray.

Chris

Thanks Chris for mentioning that link. It's been not even 2 years since then and I do not regret getting it out in the open and admit that I was struggling, big time. It was a call for help and what marcot is putting out there reminds me of what it reminds you of.

To any one who wants to know, it has progressed into something bigger than I ever expected. Not only has the bloody lazy Canadian become a real good friend but a few others participating in the thread mentioned, have supported me in any way they could. This is a kind of encouragement money can't buy and is very much appreciated.

I did have to jump my shadow though, meaning that I had to trust people without a NDA or what we call here a Confidentiality Agreement. It is usually not worth the space it takes up on a screen, but like I said, evaluating a person by their writings in CR4 made me jump my shadow and convinced me to trust again. I was a badly burnt child so it took quiet some guts to trust again.

To attract them, the entrepreneurs, like AH mentioned, is a hard act to follow and if one does not accept the status quo one has no chance. They don't eff around and have no time for sentimental crap. It is similar to developing a prototype: If the first one needs improvement, so will the next and the next, next, next, next.

It is the same with a business plan. It changes with every piece of information one receives. If I would put all my versions together they could form a novel. Just yesterday, I thought of changing that sentence or leave out a paragraph because that sentence would not stand the context of the overall plan.

The people reading BP's do it for a living and don't take shit from any wannabe inventor. They demand, and rightly so, a clear rundown of the strategy. One could hire a gun but that will cost. If going for a government grant there are people for hire and they take a share, up front that is, not some promise of future royalties. They just don't care and do it for a living.

Heidi, the better half, is calling me for late lunch so I better obey me best Mate. With out her, I would have thrown in the towel many more times than I have.

Good luck to the brave, you will need it, Ky.

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Good morning Ky,

Thank you Chris for the link!

I was impressed by that thread. As Chris said, it is similar to what I proposed but with a few distinctions.

My original intention was not to discuss the details of the inventions in the open but to form "private" correspondences between the interested parties before going to step #2 where real physical involvement is done. This is why I asked for the geographical location of the inventor to be disclosed. At one point, the "angel" will need to meet with the inventor to help testing and validating the product. An inventor located to far might be to expensive to support.

A good example is that your idea #8. Dry bleaching/restoration process for fine art, prints and books (Ozone) is interesting for me. I could certainly contribute with knowhow and test equipments. Eventually, I could provide a manufacturing facility as it is the business of my employer. The problem is that Australia is about right across the world from Canada. My "angel" budget does not cover a $5K-10K plane ticket. I assume that you would take me in as a guest to save on hotel... I could turn the trip into a holiday but my wife would not appreciate looking at kangaroos while I sweat in somebody else garage. Women are like that...

I don't want you to ship your prototype to me either unless you come with it but the expense would be also prohibitive and take money away for your product development. For this reason, we are not likely to collaborate closely on this project. (But I will try to answer your questions on the subject if you have any)

This is why we need to identify people within a few hour drive. A long weekend visit would be feasible for most people. It would be partly social and partly technical.

The dis-advantage is the reduction of the brain storming effect that public CR4 posting does. The advantage is that your idea is less likely to be copied by people that surf the internet looking for product ideas to copy...

Good luck with your product developments.

Marco

I understand Ky went to school and apprenticed in Art Restoration. (and has spent time working in that field, as well as creating some fantastic art)

we've been working on and sharing product ideas since that thread started. I commend him to you. (I also haven't been to Magnetic Island either.. but someday, I'll go see...)

Chris

Good morning it is marcot

If you look carefully you will find that no details of any inventions or innovations (there is quiet a difference) have been disclosed in the thread Chris has supplied. That was one of the problems with that thread, that it was to avoid putting ideas in the public domain and hence, make them impossible to patent.

The tyranny of distance had no influence on a creative partner ship with Chris and others, which I will not mention here, but who have been very supportive and helpful with all kinds of advice. It did increase my phone bill for a while but in the past I have spent more money discussing technical issues (broadly) in the pub. One has to be very careful about details of an invention. No, not paranoid but just a bit guarded.

You are correct to say that a meeting and a demonstration of the invention to the CV's is a must. That has now happened with one of my inventions and being on track is a good thing. Were these tracks will lead is another thing altogether and is dictated by the interested parties. They know best and the rapport I have with them is one of mutual respect. Only time will tell.

The dry bleaching demoulding/foxing process is quiet straight forward and I require only a manufacture and distributor. I am sure it will create some interest in the arts community but at the moment I hardly find the time to scratch my back side. I still have the main components but have used the perspex for something else by now.

Once I have a bit more time I will get back to you and give you a rundown on the principle involved. It would not require any more research but a company that, after evaluating the invention, would be willing and able to present it to the market. It is a limited market but it would cut a lot of guess work out of the dangerous (for the object to be restored) techniques employed in the past.

I have learned from my past and would never offer a not fully developed prototype. I am aware that there never can be a final one but when that stage, injection moulding details for example, comes into play one is usually home and hosed.

I have to go now but will further contribute in an hour or so. Some points you have raised need to be answered or responded to and I think I can do that.

See you soon, Ky.

Me again marcot

I have nearly said it all and have done most of it in the thread mentioned by Chris. I appreciate your willingness to assist and help. I must really stay focused on what I am doing now and getting sidetracked is a disease that inventors have. The best cure is to see how things can go wrong if one tends to too many weddings at a time.

Once I have a bit more time I will get back to you and because Chris at least lives in the same country as you, you could talk to him in the future. He is my agent but has only found out right here and now. You know, a good sense of humor is so important for a creative relationship.

I am looking forward to the day were all is in place and I can lift the Vail on what we have been working on. Not for the faint hearted, I can tell you.

Gotta get going marcot, good to talk and lets see what the future holds. It's a pleasure to know you are there and good on CR4 to make all this possible. I am looking forward to what others have to say about this. We have a lot to learn and it will never end, Ky.

We live on thin ice and breath thin air and have no contractual agreements but big hearts. Greed is not part of my genetic makeup and Chris would not even know what the word stands for. Not only has he contributed with CAD's for the injection molder, but has contributed in other ways as well. What is coming to fruition now has taken a long time, and all on the basis of good trust and assistance by others in the link Chris mentioned. You know who you are and many thanks again.

Everything will go its way and due diligence, when it raises it's pretty face, will be part of any future development, as it has been in the lead up to the situation we find ourselves in now. I keep saying "Not long now" and am convinced that we will get there. Just spoke to one of the VC's and he told me that now, that the train is moving, I should enjoy the ride. Just as Chris said the other day. It's still moving at a pace were I can pick daisies but soon I'll have to watch out that I don't fall off.

Good to know your are here and any future contribution from you is appreciated. One step at a time. This invention will create many jobs and solve quiet a few other issues as well. I could go on for ever, as usual, so I'll leave you to it for now.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

There's are limitless ideas lining up for vc money. Teaming up with the brightest engineers won't guarantee a nickle of investment.

The fastest way to get an idea to market is to mortgage everything you own, borrow from all your family and friends, use the resultant cash to build your invention and take it to market. Therein lies the real test for how much confidence you have in your own idea. Btw, many inventors don't even have enough confidence to pay for patent fees and expenses on their own idea - which would go a long way in adding credibility and perhaps increase chances of opening vc wallets.

The problem is that confidence in a product is not enough! Money is not enough either! (it just makes the failure more confortable)

Most inventors are very confident in their un-workable idea. They just need the means of testing them without using all their resources.

Any product and idea has to be bonced of somebody else (with understanding of the issues) and a prototype must/should be prooven before investing the family home in it.

I do not want to spend years of my life working on somebody else idea but I could help somebody nearby to perform tests on their product. I can also supply a few ideas for improvement even a few electronics parts that can be difficult to get for a lone inventor.

I have done this in the past with a mechanically enclined inventor who needed some help with a simple electrical control. The market didn't end up being as good as he hoped for but at least he didn't loose his house testing the proto.

The tests we did were simple for me but very expensive to conduct at an accredited lab. Of corse, he didn't get an official report from me but all he needed was to know if the circuit could sustain a few thousand volts DC. Half an hour with the highpot tester and the 200A variable voltage supply that I use regularly in my work gave him the answer he had tried to get for many months but couldn't afford the thousands of dollars asked by test labs. I had fun working with him! I met a good man.

It was only by luck that he had called a school teacher who remembered me.

What I am trying to do is to make this connection process easier. I want to give a fighting chance to theose inventors that are resourceless and isolated. It doesn't matter if their chances of success are low. They deserve to know if the product has a chance before investing the house.

I cannot back you up financially but if you need to test some dielectric strength or a specific idea on a control circuit, I am willing to give you an hour or two as long as we have fun doing it. I simply hope that you will do the same if you have a chance.

It seems to me that this already exists to a certain level- but a lot of the critical interaction will take place "off line"- through private messages or direct contact. One makes very good contacts here, and I find that many participants are more than willing to assist with a good idea (although I have yet to see evidence of business plan writing expertise- maybe because it has been a while since I have had a marketable idea?).

Not harsh at all but reality - You added to each point I made and correctly!

Pet rocks were easy - from there on it only gets more difficult.

The shyster that is trying to force table saw mfgs to use his auto stop probably ran up against a solid wall and is now trying to use the courts to break down the wall.

Big equipment companies are not interested in cute add ons that would make their goods more expensive with marginal benefit. What would happen if the saw stop we recently commented about ever failed to work - most likely some lawyer would be after the company for big bucks - even if it was the fault of the user.

The ARRA (stimulus package) is a bad joke anyway.

The full amount is still not spent. How in the world do you have instant job creation from investments in projects that are 1, 2, 3 and more years out? It makes the fearless leader feel good to say he is doing 'unprecented' and wonderful things while in reality his the fiddler while the US is burning.

China did better at getting money on the table and making their economy start to move again. In the US the politicians just fed their favorite causes with little justification or reason other than that it made them feel good and most of the voters are too stupid to understand anyway.

It's good to know I "added correctly!" though I'm confused about "each point" you made.

"Pet rocks were easy" - really?

"The pet rock sold for $3.95 and estimates state Dahl sold over 5 million of his pet rocks in a six month period. Even more, each pet rock was purchased for a few pennies and Dahl estimated that the packaging and accompanying manual cost him under 30 cents per rock in bulk to produce. Therefore, assuming incidentals and delivery cost Dahl another 65 cents per rock, then Dahl was profiting 3 dollars per rock. With these totals Dahl earned over 15 million dollars during a six month period in 1975 which would be estimated at $56,166,419.02 today."

"from there on it only gets more difficult"?

With ~ 30 million dollars p.a., how hard do you think it gets?

Did you know;

"In 2009, Martin Abrams of the Mego Corporation bought the rights to the Pet Rock and began manufacturing it. His company, i-Star Entertainment, currently manufactures a new line of Pet Rocks that are sold at retail stores."

I'd say it qualifies as reasonably successful; armed with an idea $75 dollars in copyright lodgment and a lot of 'doing it himself'.

I think you managed to misunderstand what I said.

By 'added correctly' I was saying that I agreed with your points. I don't think the posts contradict each other.

Pet rocks were a rather simple idea (can anyone suggest otherwise?) that turned out to be an excellent money spinner.

That was about as simple of an idea as I can think of that turned out very successful.

Most ideas that make money are far more complex than the pet rock!

Very few small companies, inventions or patents will generate the income that the pet rock did! No shortage of raw materials and no necessity to import either.

Au contraire - "down-loadable ring tone".

Cost that one out?

Indeed "Credit Cards" Good one!!!!!!!!

A Very, Very Good Answer, 34point5.

I haven't personally been down the road that you have but I can identify with all your points - just as if I had actually been down that road.

I hope that I can keep all your points to the forefront because I imagine it's easy to lose your way in the fog and compromise when things get difficult.

Thank you.

Maybe you are looking too big!

I have met a few inventors over the years who didn't become rich but started a small business supplying their product to their "local" market.

One of them, many years ago (1980's), produced a simple trailer with an hydraulic boom to install aerial antennae on people's roof. His business was the service that was possible using his machine.

He could have bought an industrial truck but didn't have the money and the maintenance would have been to high. The market couldn't bare the cost of such a machine.

He spent a few months in his garage while collecting his unemployment insurance building this contraption. When the unemployment insurance ran out, he didn't go on welfare. He started his business. Eventually, the recession of the 80's ended and he sold the business and went back to work for somebody else.

He was a good worker, not a business manager. He didn't grow his business, he created his job! The next guy grew the business for a while but the cable TV spreading in remote areas and the satellite dish took over.

The idea here is to create ones job more that creating a multi-national business.

Please read my foot note which says as under:-

"Engineers should not look for jobs but should create jobs for others" by Dr.Radhakrishnan Ex President of India during my college graduation day

This question is related to Economics of the nation. To encourage industry big or small Govt. should spend money on infrastructure projects like highways, dams, power plants, fertiliser plants etc. Such projects will generate business for small and big industry. Now if country's economy is war based then trillions of dollars goes in war expenses is like going in drain except for industry based on war economy.

not to mention the Afghani's have been at war eternally

the US certainly has ignored history [ask the Russians]

Even Britishers who fought with them 100 years back could not win over them. They are very strong fighters. We have here in Mumbai, India, a church named "Afghan Church" which was built by Britishers in memory of soldiers and officers who were killed during war in Afghanistan.

On the New York Times Op-Ed page of Friday August 6th is an column by Paul R. Michel and Henry R. Nothhaft titled "Inventing Our Way Out of Joblessness". Apparently the US Patent and Trademark Office is backlogged. Patents in hand attract Venture Capital. Patent fees have been used for other purposes than support of the Office, hobbling it, and creating 1.2 million applications yet to be examined.

"each issued patent is associated with 3 to 10 new jobs."

The article estimates that if the US Patent Office was restored to functionality 675,000 to 2.25 million jobs would be created.

It also says that the average cost of a patent is $38,000 in lawyer and patent office fees.

Over all the article supports your, and others like Ky's thesis. So far while CR4 is a fine community, it is mostly about discussion as an end all and be all, and has no apparent interest in formally facilitating anything more than that.

Ideas flow in and out and all around in the CR4 community, and sometimes great columns and stories are just put out there here exemplifying the strange desire of humans to simply share a life of the mind.

No politicians are welcome here. The Marketing Department of Globalspec is apparently in control of CR4, and seems to see it as a bother instead of as a place where out of could come things to market. If that was not the case, CR4 would long ago now have instituted a formal way within the community to support with money some of the ideas impossible to really make fly without money.

P.S. Anybody want to put up money for a patent on the Electric paint brush? I bought an electric toothbrush I intend to tape a brush on to paint with. Where is the Chromatic Electric Harmonica? There you go, two ideas from me worth about 200 jobs with no patent, no money to do so so as to justify any Venture Capital.

What Marcot is talking about is helping each other - good.

The quote about each patent is associated with 3 to10 new jobs seems a bit silly. The great majority of new patents will do nothing but collect dust.

Your bitch about CR4 is a bit difficult to follow! Seems to be the fault of CR4 that patents are not flowing from the group?

Your 2 ideas (you mentioned) and a million dollars and I expect you would end up with bills and zero dollars. I certainly would use similar standards to a VC if I put my money on any new idea/product.

How many out there have ever looked at patent documents. Companies patent the same thing over and over again with some supposed minor change to try to stretch out the patent life.

Very few patents become a product from what I have seen in the iron and steel industry.

I agree with you. We are too concerned with patents. These patent office bureaucrats are doing the same thing as all other bureaucrats. They slow down the industry and increase the cost of doing business. You have to be very wealthy to get any protection from a patent these days.

CR4's contributors are not likely to be in a position to help patent holders / hopeful.

We can certainly help the inventors / developpers who are trying to earn an honest living from their ideas. Good for them if it ever becomes big. For the moment, the importance is to give them a chance to make their own job / small business. The idea can be for a service, a product, or a tool to provide a service.

I am not interested in preparing an inventor to meet the vulture venture capitalists. That is for him to decide. Most small business start with somebody with an idea to exploits. Yes, some of those ideas are stolen by competitors but the vast majority of small business owners live more or less comfortably in their small market. They simply hope that the bureaucrats won't make their life too complicated and won't tax them too much.

They are usually ready to face loyal competition. It is also for us as a society to encourage the local people who are earning an honest living instead of the large multi-national company. While I shop at large stores for large projects, I usually buy the small hardware from the local store while taking a walk. It is more expensive but save me from the 2 x 15 minutes drive and keeps me fit. At the end, the local hardware store keeps me, and my community healthier than the large surface stores.

I do not appreciate your characterization of my description of CR4 as a "bitch". The article I summated factors in the patents that collect dust, and is credible.

I know where I am.

What I was saying was that what Marcot and Ky have proffered is in the air, and has been identified as a hopeful direction for business and government to take. I rejoined to say that Venture Capitalists look for patents in hand to which apply money.

If the patent office of the US is hobbled and patents are not given out in a timely way, then Venture Capital is harder to get.

I have made at least one tool that was used to help others make some income. No great fortunes made, but work got done and paychecks arrived. And guess what, the tool I designed and made was made of steel. So watch it, you might not know as much as you think you do about me, or anything else.

The CR4 community is creative on its own. I am aware of Innocentive, which asks for solutions to problems. Lately most of the requests are in areas of Chemistry and Biology, which I am not strong in.

I admit that it would be nice if CR4 was a more lucrative hang out, but it is what it is.

My suggestions for the community are intended to be positive, and I do think and believe in doing a little here and a little there best I can to help others as I would like to be helped. I am also of the belief that it is not so much the great big things you do every now and then, but the little things you do day in and day out.

P.S. An electric chromatic harmonica, like the electric guitar would find many players as was the event with the electric guitar, or electric organ piano, though not so much. The electric paintbrush would also have limited market, but some. Progress through Fun!

Transcendian,

I looked at Innocentive but as you said, there isn't much for me either and it is too involved for my spare time. Most of us are not looking for a second job. I just want to give a small boost now and then to somebody who is trying to break through.

The intention is not to produce a product for VC or a patent. If the inventor wants to do do it, it is his choice and his work.

There are many people who can use some help once in a while to create their own job. Read post #24 for an example.

I am trying to find a good way to connect the people together for a one on one collaboration.

Regards,

Marco

Good idea!

This would protect the little guy who is not likely to be able to patent or protect his idea.

I really don't like the patent principle that your product develop with trade secrets can be taken away from you by somebody who patents them later on. Selling a product should be considered a proof or ownership of the technology and force a later patent holder to provide a free licence to the original inventor.

Since your logbook can be used to prove a priory invention, why not a product?

If a patent holder comes to me saying that I infringes on his patent but that my product has been developed and marketed before his invention, he shouldn't have any right over my business.

In a patent challenge;

1. investigate the existence of prior art.

2. investigate any mention in 'common domain'.

If either can be demonstrated, the application lacks novelty - so is invalid (and they have done their #30⁺ grand) .

The error in a lot of thinking is; if the Patent Examiner didn't find either - that they don't exist.

Patently not the case

(points for double pun?)

If any one comes whining that they have a patent, and you are infringing, CR4 would be an excellent place to ask about prior art or common domain mention - even if their patent predates your activity.

Very, very, few Patents are actually "novel".

Show that in a letter of reply and you will solve the threat of "horrifically expensive litigation" for the cost of a stamp.

Because to go near a Court then, means they stand to loose everything, and then be sued for every cent so far extracted from the gullible.

solid knowledge. ga

_{^{how do we get the patent lawyers to happily pay for our patents?}}

Chris

You can't - and you remind me of .....

At the end of protracted and expensive litigation - (i.e a technically vacuous barrister finally securing the win he should have got first up), the Patent Attorney decided to make a triumphant (but actionable) statement to the media.

His "Winning Client" was then successfully sued by the infringing corporate for far more than the awarded judgment (+ costs).

So I might just add; if you win, don't brag, and don't let anyone do it for you.

And don't expect a Patent "attorney" to have any actual knowledge of law, other than the one that says "it's never the scribes fault".

Naturally the above is offered without prejudice.

What was the "Winning Client" sued for..the statement by his attorney? Did the attorney slander the infringing corporation? Sounds interesting.

A normal enough sentiment among those in litigation is a 'win' would put the other party "out of business", or be "punished", or be "taken down", etc.

This is (arguably) defamation of the losers solvency in the public/investor/stock exchange/supplier/customer view.

As the share price usually falls on any corporate loosing in court, any such utterances can be held as 'exacerbating' a quite significant losses.

As said - don't brag.

Any competent lawyer will be just waiting to slam.

A $1 "win" could cost you millions.

_{Equally, if you are wanting names, quotes and litigation details - forget it.}

Understand.

No, I wasn't interested in names or quotes, etc.

Thanks

& of course your patent is worth no more than the amount of money you have to defend it with

you can't take being right to the bank

34.5 has a good plan don't bite off more than you can chew, you can always take another bite

I don't know if you are familiar with www.mfg.com, but they act as a hub for companies have projects bid on (ie, machining or provision of parts, etc.) by other registered companies. In that, they provide a digital NDA as part of the process of being allowed access to the bidding docs..

I would have thought that Globalspec might do something similar, and that technology might filter down to cr4.. and support the 'documenting' function. In the meantime, I'm not even sure if writing or posting pics on the web stands as 'copyright'.

but it is a great future sci-fi idea, which I'm sure will come to pass... perhaps a community of experts like cr4 would even participate in the patenting process.. of course, that would require Vision... (politicians with vision.)

Chris

Good concept Chris, I'll look into it in detail a bit later. I think CR4 would be more approachable than they were 18 months ago.

I am quiet embarrassed what I put forward that day. Just had enough of the self destructive attitude of some. Get out there and do it and keep doing it because nobody is going to do it for us. They, the CV's, only take over when the egg is laid and then they put one in charge of incubating. The rest is history.

Keeping an iron red hot and working on it takes a lot of energy and can go wrong if one is not super careful. Is there a patron of inventors? Let us pray

Ky

It is not directly copyright but it creates a prior art situation. That means, that once it is in the public domain, it can't be patented any more, because everyone knows about it or could know about it. Like esbuck suggests it is a good way of protection but has it' s drawbacks. For one, any VC would loose interest if the Patent (a commodity, company asset really) would not be in place. One can be married with out a certificate but when one would wish to take a loan or buy a house with the loan the legal eagles would be on your case sooner than you can say "But we love each other".

Pros:

If, at some later stage, the Company would be sold, the Patent will become an asset, commodity.

Cost for patents could be off set by tax or R&D credits. It would protect from copy cats for a short period.

Patent research would avoid potential future infringement notices by third parties. Trademarks could be established with out a patent.

Cons: It would protect from copy cats but only for a very short time. Cost for applications world wide would possibly exceed $200.000 in the second year. Cost for litigating against infringes would be enormous. Very complex and time consuming with out giving real enforceable protection. It does keep the attorneys happy though.

Patent attorneys thrive on this conundrum and are more than willing to help. That's what they do for a living and good luck to them. Unless one has the funds in place, from the outset, one should be very careful committing to this process. A year is over in no time at all (priority date) and if one can't follow up with the process one has lost the case, none the smarter and very disappointed.

Hope this helps, Ky.

"A year is over in no time at all (priority date) and if one can't follow up with the process one has lost the case, none the smarter and very disappointed."

I think we found the ultimate 'better mouse trap'.... it is run by the cats! it keeps the inventors running the gauntlet, leaving their money, blood, sweat and tears behind.

you know better than me; you have been through it.

Chris

Well put russ123 . It's all cosmetic and only to mask the real problem which is the patent industry itself. Not for the fainthearted. I have dizzy spells just thinking of it but will obey in the end. I can always say they made me do it, but then again they (VC's) pay for it and not me. I told them in no uncertain terms what I think about it.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

gets my vote too... sorry I can only give you one... I can't decide if it should be more for the neat paragraphing, which I really appreciate, or for the content.

chris

The paragraphs come with Firefox.

When I was using Chrome to access CR4 it won't allow such things for whatever reason.

Now I switch back and forth depending upon the destination and bookmarks.

You can have paragraphs in Opera, Chrome, Safari

[p] & enter

Yes. That is what I must do with Safari. You must manually type in the HTML characters.

Seems patently insufficient. Are the advantages of safari, chrome etc worth it?

Back to the real issue and the dangers concerning a single identity inventor and his ambition to create a job for him self and others. I am fully aware what the dictated bottom line is all about. But how to continue and still have some belief in the existing system?

It is really a situation of "catch as catch can" with the judges being bribed and the spectators loving the show and watching the train wrecks in slow motion, just for the fun of it. Rules are rules my back side. Has nobody any bored patent attorney sitting around who would like to comment on this with out $$ signs in his eyes.

For me this is a real life situation and not a game show. If I subtract my good humor from the equation, situation and have to sign a deed very soon, I am very concerned about this and more confused than ever, although I put on a brave face about it all.

It's like being worried about cancer and not having any symptoms (yet) at all but knowing that it is lurking in the background and the remedies, cures, although available, are very costly. With cancer there can be preventive measures taken but it seems that the pest of the patent industry is overwhelmingly destructive and that the legal eagles have a lot to answer for. Bring it on guys (PA's), can't you see that what you are perpetrating is hurting real people?

I can still hear my attorneys words which he uttered recently: "I've been doing it for 32 years". Is that supposed to calm my nerves. He has no idea how advanced my protective measures are so I leave him in the belief that after all these years he should know what he is talking about. Slimy mongrel, just taking advantage of me in a situation were I am asking for protection that he knows it can never be given, ever.

Well, like I said, others will foot the bill but it is not a decision made lightly to become part of this "cancer" and already know about the cost and treatment procedures after the event. It hasn't even started yet and I am up in arms. Give me a break, I have so much important work to do.

I feel better now, Ky.

"Seems patently insufficient. Are the advantages of safari, chrome etc worth it?"

CR4's web forum is the only forum or web page that Safari has an issue with.

I have an issue with just about everything Microsoft, so I use those products as infrequently as I can, including their OS.

Could not admin step in and do something about it? I am fairly new to computers so I'm out of my league even discussing it. Is it for security reasons or why the incompatibility of systems. Or is it like our (now defunct) video system fighting PAL back then. All to do with market share?

By the time I have learned all about it the next change will be upon me anyway, I suppose, Ky.

We've asked time and again, but the answer is always NO RESOURCES.

"Once an invention is sold for the first time it can not be patented by you or anyone else - at least in that country."

Unless the laws have changed; in the US you have one year from public disclosure to patent an invention.

In Europe, the law is different. You can not patent any invention that has been publicly disclosed.

I believe I am correct about the sale being a cutoff point but am working from memory and what the lawyers told us.

In Europe there were many different laws - each country being separate. I don't know how the EU affected that point - I was never involved in establishing patents in Europe. The process I worked with used large amounts of natural gas and that is one thing Europe has in exceedingly small quantity so we had no interest in their laws or rules.

I do know that in the US, Canada, Mexico, India, Argentina, Venezuela and many other countries an existing patent outside of that country has little meaning. The US company I worked for was a master at appropriating technology that licensees developed and patenting it so they could have another plaque on the office wall and claim the work as their own.

My information comes from a corporate patent attorney, but that was about 8 years ago. I have not kept up with any changes that may have occurred since then.

We brought in an attorney to educate the engineering staff on the patent filing procedure.

We have similar situation here in India. Govt.is sitting tight on millions of files in various depts. I thought things are better in western countries but alas everyone is sailing in same boat..

Bottom line - in the OP context - is forget Gov (unless it's a gov contract) and just go do it!

Far too much bleating about 'barriers' you can circumvent or just straight-out ignore.

More "cut to the chase"

and

There it is even more confusing as access to established patents is much more difficult.

We spent a good deal of time in discussions with the company lawyers on wording, what it was we were trying to patent etc. Several years easily go by during the process.

The real problem is too many people want to be millionaires rather than just sustaining a good standard of living for themselves, their familly and their employees.
This basically leads to 95% of the wealth being gobbled up by 5% of the people (or some such figure).
Don't start me on governments, bankers and solicitors.
I'm not talking communism, just a fair day's work for a fair days pay.

If you're in a car crash or a fire, who do you want attending? The £100,000PA Administrator/accountant or the £20,000PA nurse or fireman?

It's pretty obvious the people who set the wages and administer the money, give themselves the biggest share, even though in many cases their contribution isn't actually very important.
Del

Hi Del

I know that you don't like long posts and I can't remember the last time I have disagreed with you so fundamentally. I think the hat you have put on here does not only not fit you but after you have read through this you might even change your mind.

Cats just love having the same food served all the time and I can remember our cats face (many years ago now) when we tried a new brand of pet food. You know, the ones that are confused by foreigners with human food because of the labeling. She would not go near it and the look on her face showed true disgust for our experiment.

"The real problem is too many people want to be millionaires rather than just sustaining a good standard of living for themselves, their familly and their employees."

That is just a generalization and helps nothing and nobody. We are talking about small time inventors with there backs to the wall and wanting to create jobs and with products that can improve our living standards and reduce the impact on the environment and many other factors at the same time.

"This basically leads to 95% of the wealth being gobbled up by 5% of the people (or some such figure)".

If you are bringing in the legal system here, I couldn't agree more. It seems though that we have another generalization here, which holds no and if, only a minuet amount of water. I can't see what this has to do with the case before us, at all.

"I'm not talking communism, just a fair day's work for a fair days pay."

Well how about a few years of privately funded R&D. No holidays, family feuds, different jobs on the side, disagreements with Mates who let you know that you must have lost your marbles still going on and on and on. Being accused of having German blood in ones veins because nothing else can explain the seemingly endless stubbornness and dedication to and for a "simple" idea.

Were does fair come into it? The only unfair thing is that Chris has spent hundreds of hours on this and has not seen one brass razu, just promises, promises, promises. A fair days work my ass. But I think I know what you are getting at but that has nothing to do with this thread, again. Just a cheap shot kitty, with all due respect.

Look Del, I might have got this completely wrong but as I do, sometimes I sleep over things and held back yesterday when I read your comment first. Re-reading it today made me recognize that you either have no idea (which I know you have) or you think that a flippant remark might go unnoticed. Well it hasn't and hence this reaction (over?) to it.

All I am after is to be given a fair chance in life and be able to be as productive as possible with the least friction as possible so that one day when, down on my dying bed, I can say to my self: "even wild horses couldn't drive me away" not to mention the kitties.

Del, whatever it was that got me exited it is out now and it was not a fur ball but something much harder to regurgitate. Hope you don't mind that I had to put on my protective posturing in this case. Real friends can say these things without reprimand, I hope.

"The man who gives to the poor and has all, is just buying himself a place in heaven. The man who has nothing and gives away even that, is the true saint."

Not even sure if that is a flashback from my bible studies but it makes sense, in some way, Ky.

Hello marcot, I don't know if you have something similar in Canada, but here in the States, these people can be quite helpful.

There are not just engineers involved, but people from a lot of different fields.

http://www.score.org/index.html

They expect nothing in return for their help. From someone that is involved in the process, the idea is just the start. The process involved to bring that idea to fruition, and actually create a marketable product is daunting, to say the least. Having an engineer to help in the idea phase would be great, there is also a mountain of rules, regulations, licencing, starting a small business, etc. that must be dealt with.

Thank you Kramarat.

I will check into it.

Marco

I visited with the people from score in Greensboro, NC over a decade ago now, probably 15 years...They were very nice. At the time I was working on attempting to raise money for developing useful exoskeletons for final stage delivery of sheetrock.

Never did get investment to make it so in the states. The Hal machine is likely applicable. It was made with university support in Japan.

Been round with a Venture Capital Company. Wrote and rewrote Biz Plan for R&D Company with a unique method. Funny how really it seems the ideas, money, methods, et-al are secondary to the personalities for that sort of writing. The British and the "Americans" do seem to have many a blockhead on the lookout for a missplaced comma.

Those that have somehow gotten patents, or produced art like movies, music, games or mechanisms one way or another have been failed many times by elected government representatives. Drugs are another issue. Many times for the US citizens as a whole they are to pay both for the creating, and then it is demanded they give it away, or allow it to be stolen. The "Freeriders" got it for less, which was tenable as long as US citizens could afford to pay premium prices due to high paying factory employment for the common wage slave thrown bones.

Once so many simple jobs were shipped out this continuing operating procedure became untenable.

North Carolina has a significant history of power over more events than commonly known or understood. Congressman Howard Coble leaves a legacy that is pathetic due to his role in ignoring the importance of protecting intellectual property rights as Chairman of the Federal governments commission charged with doing that.

It has been a long time now since I researched and wrote my pieces on these events and factors and the personalities involved. I'd say I am pretty much burnt out and effectively crushed and realistically pessimistic that the US will empower its creative classes as it turns towards continuing hubris about where real wealth comes from, and hates real inventors.

P.S. This is just a post on CR4, and is not a researched annotated footnoted fully realized formal journalistic piece. Some of you might be surprised at how long it takes to actually do that sort of work. Flaws are the name of Mr. Cobles committee chairmanship, how many Intellectual properties were not defended on the international stage, especially in China and Russia, and the effects of Freerider attitudes towards US consumer dollars. We may want also to look at who causes and why gas at the pump is relatively cheap in the US while cars and trucks guzzle, and movies and music went to premium prices encouraging universal copyright infringements. Only thing really that made the US superior was its tradition of Free Speech, and personally if the US won't protect even that, it's bankrupt. Certainly I'd be for the UN more it they cared about Free Speech more. As well I'd be more inclined to regard the UN as worthy in Afghanistan or other nations if they were willing to really enforce Women's rights.

good stuff Russell. totally agree about the freedom of speech and women's rights. ga

Good to see you back around

Bureaucrats do have the need to make thems that do, jump through their own arse holes

like you say all about who you _blow know.....

A single inventor may have potentials and viable ideas, he can collaborate with other potential contributors like speciality engineering. CR4 is a place where special collaborations can be connected.

Future in engineering is confined to Sustainability and all innovators need to understand this. Master planning[ innovation] and strategic approaches are as important as the very invention. Play the waiting game and succeed.

The road to opportunities are never get closed for the true aspirants

I have ~20 years of professional experience with many design but no official patents (never believed in the system). My opinion is that trying to become rich working on an invention is just like trying to win the lottery. The chances are against us.

It usually takes too long to develop a commercial success. Most people are forced to quit before getting there. Using other's people money (VC) is not much better as it implies a loss of freedom and a dramatic increase in stress.

The few successful inventors that I know do so either for their employer or own part of the company where they work. Often the company's business is somehow related to the invention. This makes it easier to use some of the company's resources for the development. Meanwhile, the company usually benifits from the inventor's expertise.

Working for a company might be distracting for the inventor as he usually has other responsibilities to attend to but it also improves his life and financial security. I also find that working on other tasks can stimulate new ideas and bring the inventor to consider his invention under new lights. I have often found solutions for my problems in the other fields of work I was exposed to by my main job. My inventions didn't make me rich (yet)but they made me a partner in a business that employs ~25 people partly producing my products. Sometimes one has to share the cake in order to have enough for himself. If you try to keep all the cake, you risk loosing it all.

I therefore advise all the lone inventors reading this to consider starting or joining a related business that will feed them during the development stage and potentially become the outlet for the product or service invented. Then the business plan, the finance, and the sales becomes the other partner's problem...

Necessity has always been the "mother of invention".

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...apse-is-coming

The link above is Tony Robbins predictions on the US economy - remember he is one of the most optimistic humans on the planet.

How about this for a way to create new jobs? Stop ALL immigration into the US except for people who own successful businesses and pledge to move their business to the US (or to expand in the US) and hire a lot of US citizens.

It might be enough to simply stop the tide of illegal immigration.

It looks like 1 in every 12 births in the US are from illegal immigrants

Being born in the US, regardless of the parents status as citizens, assures that child of US citizenship and the benefits that go with it.

While I really enjoy talking and working with foreigners (after all, we all come from immigrants), we are flooded with people migrating here. Between our unquenchable thirst for illegal drugs fueling the Mexican drug gangs, and the out of control drug cartel wars in Mexico, we are finding that battle front rapidly expanding into our own borders.

Do you think that is accurate failure analysis? Do the numbers back that conclusion?

Has the war on drugs been in any way successful? [other than to expand government]

Isn't the chinese keeping the exchange rate skewed in their favor one of the primary factors in outsourcing of manufacturing? Another factor has been the "free trade" movement.

Goods & Services from places that have lessor safety/environmental standards should have tariffs, that income being spent to rebuild infrastructure, including the electric grid. While there may be free trade, the main beneficiaries have been the mega corporations. The real cost has been the mass export of our manufacturing base...

Isn't the personhood of companies, increasing their influence over regulation/legislation, much more detrimental than immigration [all those greedy mouths suckling at the tit of public largess]

. We have always had illegal immigration, the difference is our greatly improved ability to accurately track it.

money is not free speech....

one of my friends suggested the candidate with the most roadside signs, has too much backing from friends that are going to need to be paid back in ways that probably won't be in the best interest of most of us...

We need real choice [the Tea/carpet Baggers have yet to be for anything but, a movement of not]

I remember back when I was closer to some of these things it was pointed out that Drug dealers and kingpins didn't give money to NORML. The people that run that business now have little interest in the legalization of their production.

"Never underestimate the power of greed." Every class has its traitors.

Then again when the US Congress and rest of the government see it as helpful compromise, which it may actually be, the good vision is that, the goal is civilization.

The goal is civilization for all.

Civilization is dependent on excess energy.

I've had some excellent civilized meals and times in Manhattan, and my wife loves Rome. Let us look to these two cities, and others to see what is common to their long lives?

I get very simple about economics and roll with the facts of Port Cities are to be imitated regardless of whether or not they are natural ports. If you look at the economic health over the long term for places there will shine out factors learned and relearned for a long enough time to come to conclusions of pivoting merit worthy of Natural Law basis for the laws.

The problem with equal rights of individuals in conflict with corporations having similar status means currently more mobility for the corporations, than for the individual worker. In essence according to Transcendian Theory all really do need two passports.

I resist issuing more passports for free or only 10 bucks, for there is no real back up number to call. There are about 250 passports out there.

(Turning a website into a Port City has so far not worked out.)

It is good to be tolerant of strangers in a port city. My greatest period of shared civilization with many from many places with distinct neighborhoods involved important understandings of the streets, and manners, and being strong enough for the contests. Everyday in Manhattan in the best of it between 96th street and Battery Park did involve some moment of terror. Things for me were better soon as I moved from 625 Flatbush, to Madison Ave. & 66th. Then it was down to the East Village where I belonged and could pay the rent, sortof...

Where was I - Oh yeah, if you want a long lived strong economy act like a port. We might ask the Merchant Marines what platform they would endorse in the interests of world peace, which will flow from the Transcendian Light Bulb theory, which is that people are like light bulbs. If they don't get what they need they don't work, and if they get too much they blow out.

CW President of BBT, Shipping Containers for Haiti, and drifted anarchistic contributing VP of Transcendia, which has no president really, and I am only Founder of not having the proper personality for President myself.

Some you will get taxes from, and others you simply better not even try. Of Ben Franklin stories one illustration of what can happen is the secret funds given by Quakers to defense. It is a terrific danger to ever believe in any theology or philosophy too much. The point of one scene in Electric Kool Aid Acid Test is that one may succeed in the reactive state of mental agility even when we know the aspiration is a revolution.

Machine failure is frightening even if you are not forced to run for your life on Court Street in Brooklyn.

If I had not driven a cab in Rochester New York, I would not have known what a Gypsy Cab was. Knowing what a Gypsy Cab was saved my life.

Little insights like that influence my economic theories. "Have you got cash?" -"Yes, get me out of here."

Only so many expensive medallions are issued by the City of NY. I'd probably be dead if that criminal cab, and cab driver hadn't been looking for a nighttime fair. I wonder how many lives he saved, for Court Street is a long street and changes.

So the fact is if you want civilization, you have to roll with it.

I am running a race, but then life is like a river. You swim upstream for only short periods, then drift back, and try not to drift beyond your starting point.

The goal is to blow up crossing the finish line.

Every little town ought to have a nice little airport if we are to advance overall international stability.

(I have a quarrel with the FAA regarding inappropriate strictures on Fed funds for small airports. The stricture of the reliever statutes from the design killed appropriate airport design to secure the funding for a vital bit of the transportation infrastructure.}

Now many a company will sensibly only have an office for sales in a city like NYC, London, Paris, Bejing, Moscow, Toyko, Hong Kong and the like. The underground offices in an airport for 12,500 planes is appropriate for business interests that hate real expansion.

Anyway while I am certain that R&D patent and manufacturing of truly transformational character will help the economic situation, in lieu of that, I say become a port of call.