DIY Steam Generator

The steam age already gone,try solar system.

thanks for seeing the simplicity of it. Chuck

Who told you that steam has gone away. Most power plants today convert thermal energy to mechanical energy by the use of the conversion of water to steam. The steam then runs through a steam turbine to spin the shaft of a generator. Did you think that heat (thermal energy) just ran backwards through a resistor to produce electric energy.

Oh, I forgot to mention that this is called the Rankine Cycle and is the closest we've gotten to the theoretical limit of the Carnot Cycle for converting thermal energy into mechanical energy.

"Did you think that heat (thermal energy) just ran backwards through a resistor to produce electric energy"

actually, if you have thermoelectric generators, or peltier/seebeck devices, it does, lol.

I have a few i put together to play with. if i put a propane flame on one side, 6 led spotlights light up at the other end.

I don't know what part of the planet you're on but, surely you must be a full-on moron!

What kind of an answer is this to his query? Aren't you part of a NWO cult by any chance?

LOL

I'm not sure how to do this but I'm willing to try if you teach me. Here we go,,,,,, I need to know how to burn household trash with the sun and create a way to run a power generator at the same time from the energy you will get from burning the trash. I'm excited about doing this, please explain soon. Thanks ,,,,Chuck,,,,,BTW,,,,I am about as red neck as you tried to make me out to be however I do own a paid for CNC equipped machine shop doing production and job shop work. And I didn't get a dime from Daddy or Mom GOD rest their souls, my wife and I busted our arse's for it all. And "YES" we did stay in a "Holiday Inn" thank you. The reason I have time to do this project is I'm not much of a salesperson so I have very little work thanks to China and Mexico. I lost 3 major customers to those two countries. Anyway I'll be waiting on your instructions with baited breath,,,,,LOL,,,,Chuck, a Hard Working Redneck in Sugar Tit South Carolina and Very Proud of it! God bless all those little pigmi children in the down,,,,,,owwwww what ever he says on the comedy tour thing ya know,,,,,,,lol,,,,sleep well all,,,

Basics - you need to burn the trash to make steam or hot water or both. Solar thermal is of no benefit in burning trash but perhaps you could use thermal panels to augment the low temperature heating of your water (feed water in the case of a boiler). Unless you have a need for steam stay with hot water. The moment you decide to go for steam you need a step change in technology in having a boiler. If you make steam but have no need for process steam then you complicate matters further by having to recover the energy in a steam turbine. If you are going to use a stem turbine you need high pressure steam. A pressurised system - for home manufacture - is that much more demanding since you will need to follow the appropriate codes for materials, welding and safety. If you have enough trash - and a rule of thumb is if you have more than about 2 MW thermal worth of trash - then it could make sense to have a steam cycle generating perhaps 500 kW of electricity and some hot water. With less than about 1 MW thermal of trash it would be difficult to make any case for the complexity of a full fledged boiler and steam turbine-generator. Since you are considering household trash I expect you have less than 1 MW thermal at your disposal and I would suggest that you keep it very simple - so it works - rather than trying for an all-singing, all-dancing installation which doesn't. My suggestion would be: 1. an old fashioned grate type furnace which is easily constructed - essentially steel fabrication - and which is fairly tolerant of variation of heat content of the fuel. A fixed grate rather than a moving grate for a unit of this size. You would need stainless steels only for parts subjected to the highest combustion temperatures. If your heat exchange tubes are not too close to the combustion zone you can avoid any exotic materials. 2. Even though a grate is very forgiving of fuel quality you would still need to sort the trash to avoid glass and other alkali containing materials (to avoid corrosion) and some materials which are slow to burn and emit carcinogens and materials which cause slag at low (relatively) temperatures. 3. Design only for hot water and avoid the complications of controlling a boiling process. Simple designs of fixed grate furnaces are readily available for example here - http://books.google.com/books?id=KE565zmFumQC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=fixed+grate+furnace&source=bl&ots=wHz9Cd7jgu&sig=J5GnvVPX_Inf-xDrnDxocsG5OVg&hl=en&ei=c0tqTP-GFsrKOJHu-fAB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved= Good luck! ktwop

Thanks so much. You gave me exactly the help I'm looking for. I need to study on all you've said to make sense of it and my idea. You are correct I'm sure now that I think about it in the fact that I will not have enough trash to go the steam way. However what I really do have in mind is a very small system more or less "proof of concept" type thing. For that matter I'll change my whole idea if someone has a better one. I just want to get ride of trash and receive some kind of energy in return. I already save all my cans and melt them down to make small molds of aluminum to make stuff from. Basically I believe in recycling everything, waste nothing!! I try everyday to find something I can do with all this plastic from the water bottle works that has taken off so. Thanks again for your thoughts and please stay in touch. If you have anymore ideas please share. Thanks ,,,,Chuck

I try everyday to find something I can do with all this plastic from the water bottle works that has taken off so.

the world health org is now touting regular clear 2 liter bottles for water purification. Fill a bottle full with settled cloth filtered ditch water, put the bottle in the sun all day, and the water is biologically sterile and safe to drink that day. of course this does not remove chemical contaminants, if present.

i believe most plastic bottles made are pretty clean burning PETE now, so you can toss them in the fire,too. I do it all the time

There is quite a hobby interest in small steam engines, and a magazine called "Live Steam" (I think.) Searching on model railroading might also turn up many good ideas. In a minute I will try a Google on "steam engine plans"....Yeah, lotsa stuff. Sounds like a great project--with your tooling and background, you'll have good luck and likely success.

The more modern method to small scale heat to electric power conversion is to use Peltier coolers running in reverse or Seebeck units to directly convert the heat source into DC electricity.

Although they are not super efficient a good design will be roughly equal to that of a small steam system but has the advantage of being zero pressure system and the waste heat energy is easier to capture and reuse for other purposes. Plus it would have no moving parts on the power production side and a extremely long working life with minimal maintenance.

This method would make it possible to build a waste fuel to electric generator system without the need for using pressurized steam or mechanical parts. Basically all you need is a temperature controlled water jacket to stabilize the fires heat output (large thermal mass for temperature regulation) and a method to draw the excess heat off of the solid state generator devices (basically a heat exchanger or heat sink system) and some place that extra heat energy can be use beneficially.

Its just a thought any way.

No idea what size system Chuck (the OP) is envisaging, but after a quick look round I came up with about £250/kW for Peltier effect devices.

Given that he has essentially free man-hours and machine shop access, the costing could be a fine balance.

I must say the lack of moving parts/pressure systems etc for power generation is attractive (albeit boring ).

LOL, I'm an old motocross racer John so "I must say the lack of moving parts/pressure systems etc for power generation is attractive (albeit boring

)." seems very attractive to me,,,LOL,,,, if you know what I mean.

Nothing beats mechanical clatter and the smell of oil, eh?

However, as I gather your output could easily exceed 1kw, therefore, I would think of something substantially more powerful than an auto generator. If you consider to use steam engine you could dress its fly-wheel with neo-magnets and just 3 coils to create a simple 3phase generator since they all have governors. Should you decide to rectify it then rev stability ain't important.

"Nothing beats mechanical clatter and the smell of oil, eh?"

Correct, however I lost my sense of smell when I was but 21 years old you see from motocross racing motorcycles with my face getting too personal with the ground.

Isti80 ya lost me at "3 coils" though. I do know just enough about electricity to get me in the hospital. LOL, I know 3 phase, governors, but not "rectify" nor "revstability" lol unless you meant "rev-stability" and thats got something to do with the back door at the hospital doesn't it?,,,lol,,,if we don't laugh we'll go crazy don't cha know????

Thanks, I'll look these up as you got way over my head real quick ya see. LOL. Thanks again,,,,Chuck

What size generator are you thinking about to drive and would it operate 24/7?

any size really I'm not even sure yet. For cost savings I may even use a car alternator. The whole idea is just to do my part in keeping stuff out of our locale landfill and make some energy in the process. For the neighbors and youth a proof of concept type thing you see. Thanks ,,,Chuck

I guess that you have considered composting? or you might already compost a lot of your food refuse? The decomposed material becomes plant fertilizer.

....true, but don't forget it also gives off the same amount of CO2 as if you had burnt it and heated something up with it......slower, but thats all!!

Not quite true. Composting leaves a fair amount of organic matter (humus) that may never leave the soil. Burning releases all of the carbon.

Think about how the organic matter for the oil we are using today got there. That was all through long-term, large scale composting!

Yes we do compost. I can even add to that with the fact that as I have said I have a machine shop and have done a lot of cast iron work in the past when work was better. With all these cast iron chips that has come from the work done I do everything from put them around tree trunks for fertilizer, to building ramps off concrete pads because when the chips rust together it makes a very good driving surface at little to no cost.

You hit the nail right on the head, who is going to be around 24/7 to feed the rubbish into the boiler????

Its a job done by underpaid people over the last 1 1/2 centuries.......which is why its gone severely out of fashion......the only way to do it is to make (a totally unpractical and costly) automatic feeder.......

If you restrict it to say 4 - 6 hours a day, you will still get rid of the rubbish and save some money, get a lot of books read between loading and not need to do it automatically.....

Or see if you can "swap" all your wood for wood pellets. They can be automated very easily.....see any home pellets burner!!

Shred & pellitize the rubbish

Hi Chuck,

These are not for food waste but some simple instructions for simple wood gasifiers which are easy to follow. If you have the gear and the time, it may be worthwhile for the initial energy conversion. I understand there are some complete and cheap units out of India, from the boiler to the generator. There seems to be plenty of info on the net and changing all the time. Let us know how you go. Bob

http://www.clean-air.org/Ed%20Burton%20Story/wood_chips_to_bio.htm

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA208249&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

Thanks so much, just what I'm looking for, links on how too.

One of the biggest problems you may face is burning such a variable fuel cleanly. Rubbish can have a highish moisture content as well as some hard to combust materials. If they are not heated sufficiently you will create some toxic gases (eg carbon monoxide) as well as some highly corrosive gases. Your generator would need to be able to tolerate these chemicals. Nickel based alloys don't generally like sulphur compounds much, some stainless steels can embrittle at high temperatures.

The additional hazard is high pressure steam. Many people have been injured by steam explosions, there are boiler codes for heated pressure vessels (for a reason).

A stirling engine gets past the steam issue but often are filled with high pressure gas, although failure is unlikely to be catastrophic for a number of reasons.

I am not trying to put you off, just go into it with your eyes open.

Thanks for your kind input sir and I will keep my eyes open. Chuck

A shredder would be a good start

possibly mix the shredded trash with wood chips

composting some of the organics could produce some methane to enhance the burn

Excellent, to the point article, with appropriate cautions. Just the requirement that your boiler be constantly attended if fed with wood or coal (let alone trash) is usually enough to dissuade home steam plant aspirants. So GA

Damn guys, old age seems to be setting in well on me,,,,lol,,,,I've been reading all your replies and looking stuff up all the while just kinda passing over misunderstood stuff like the letters "GA",,,,,,lmao, I just realized after reading drbob's words that GA means "Good Answer",,,,LOL,,,now if that's not what it means, don't anyone tell me as I may loose it ya see,,,,,lol,,,,,having all this free time on my hands and not knowing where the next dime is going to come from makes ya a little paranoid ya see,,,,,lol,,, thanks for all the help you guys are trying to give me,,,,,Chuck,,,,ie,,,I just wanted to share that with you guys so you may be able to understand that sometimes I'm not the smartest cookie in the jar ya see,,,,,lol,,,however I can sometimes make stubbling on a flat surface interesting,,,,,LOL

Dude - you'll kill yourself. Start recycling and get a worm bin.

your correct as i don't have to go this way. I'm just trying to kill two or three birds with one stone. I'm very open to any other ideas on how to get ride of my household waste and create energy at the same time.

GA 's Sir slack. I didn't want to say anything on this thread, being that it is about something besides best engineering practices. The best engineering will tell you, you get better results with landfill reclamation for the trash, and a boiler is a poor application for burning trash alone. Chuck If your interest is in the care of the land, farm it well, be that trees or whatever.

only problem is it's not that cold very often

http://www.idcide.com/weather/sc/greer.htm

Garthh, "not that cold" obviously you don't know my wife,,,lol,,,no just joking as i have a great wife and a very poor sense of humor. You are correct it doesn't get that cold here. I lived in Alaska for 3 years just outside Fairbanks and I cannot get people here in SC to understand that it gets colder here to the body than it does in Alaska. It's a wet cold here, not in Alaska.

It's a wet cold then

my point is that given the relatively short winter, it would be harder to utilize a CHP [combined heat & power] system

I do know what you mean, 35º, windy & foggy is more uncomfortable than 0º[or worse] calm & dry

You, with actual experience perfecting and using a similar system, bring reality to what has been speculation and calculation till now. So, GA

Hi Chuck;

I had no time to read all posts, so there might be lots better than this and more usefull, BUT please take special care on the design of the boiler, even a small one weighing a few pounds can kill you if explodes.

Look, the rest of the system is pretty straight forward, I'm shure you'll figure how to rotate a PMDC motor (or one with wound field) and charge a battery, which is connected to an inverter to give you 120VAC, either "bypassing excess" voltage while charging or drawing from battery when turbine is off.

Don't waste too much time with this right now, you'd better concentrate on the design of the pressurized boiler, try to buy a manual or specs sheet.

Yahlasit

You may be pretty sure, but I'm not. Please don't think I know anything, teach me as if I was a child. Very young child,,,lol,,,Chuck

The Peltier effect sounds like fun. There is plenty of info on steam systems. Turbines don't seem feasible, but a reciprocating steam engine drives a generator very nicely. Building such a plant is a big deal, and it would be just your bad luck to have a government bureaucrat show up and ask you for your steam engineer's license and boiler inspection documents. A boiler inspection can cost tens of thousands of dollars. And, yes, steam can be very dangerous.

If you would like a challenging machining job, you might try to build a Stirling engine. That's a major job. However, if you care to contact me by e-mail, I have some designs for a much simpler external combustion hot air engine (the patent has expired) which could be built in different sizes, from a toy/demo model to big one suitable for driving a generator. If you built one and liked it, you might use your machine shop to make more and sell them. The only danger in operation would be burned fingers or electrical shocks ;-).

Just a couple of points relative to steam power:

Back in the days when people weren't so picky about pollution, the English generated power in London by burning trash. They injected oxygen, so the trash burned hotter (more power) and cleaner. Almost everything burned, cleanly, even the steel beads in old tires. Glass didn't burn, but the melted glass ran to the bottom and was tapped off. Apparently, even though the effluent from a tall stack was invisible, it contained extremely small particles (such as iron oxide), and the French objected to having them blow over Paris.

Steam railway locomotives persisted in South Africa for a long time, because economic sanctions stopped the importation of oil and they had domestic sources of coal. They found that, if steam was injected into the firebox, some of the coal was gassified (5C + 3H2O >> 2CH3 and 3CO), and the gasses burned cleanly, reducing smoke.

I have thought about this and I really think that stoking a fire to make electricity will soon get boring, after about 12 hours or so I expect!!

so I thought about it some more and I read all the other posts and the only thing I could come up with was to heat a large qauantity of water, in a well insulated boiler at normal pressures. And use this to be a source of heat to be "pumped up" to heat water for washing/bath and to run heating in winter.

You will need quite a large tank, depending upon the size of your house, but with a good bit of planning, it should be possible to get a good fire going for say 2 hours and run the house heating for maybe 3 days.......

Forget electricity completely.....

Just a few thoughts.......

OK, that's another way to go. The end to this whole thought that I'm asking for help with is wrapped around NOT throwing anything away that still has energy in it! Hell Guys, the whole thought brings up all kinds of new challenges like; making energy, making heat, storing heat or energy ETC..

Chuck,

I like what you're doing and have read most of the thread, so the suggestions that you just make hot water are about on the money as far as I can see.

I'll explain. Heat ind storing a LOT of water, 3000 gals or so, would give you a resource with which to heat your buildings for a protracted period, and with a little engineering get you refrigeration for cooling as well. I'm thinking absorbtion method. Yes it's old tech, but it's simple and reliable.

Regarding plastics. You might get some mileage from this: you may be able to harvest some electric from peltier in the flue.

As you have seen a downturn in you shop work it may be possible to commercialise the process enough to get serious money for the end product.

To qualify my self, I'm an old engineer (hands on) and inventor who loves steam and all it's glory, but it's complicated machining that you don't have to do to accomplish the end that you are chasing.

More power to you.

I'll keep thinking,

Cheers,

Stu.

Thanks so much for your input. I do hope to hear more from you sir.

Try getting the gas engine that will utilise the gas from the landfill site to generate electricity. Steam turbines in general are not environmental friendly and complecated.

If you are looking for the secret to burning anything combustible the trick is to put sufficient draft air to it from the bottom up and from the top at the same time.

Try burning sawdust, dry grass, or hay from the top down once. All it does is smolder and smoke. But put the draft air to it from the bottom up and then try burning it. You get a hot flame and lots of outgassing. Just add enough air to that out gassing and it too burns very hot and clean as well.

This also works well with garbage that has a high plastics or rubber content. It needs air and a self sustaining hot flame under it to get it to burn properly. By putting a forced draft into my boiler from the bottom up I get very little residual ash byproducts. Many times the fire is so hot that the remaining ash from what ever I burned will melt and fuse together into crusty brick like chunks! Now thats a hot and complete combustion process!

Also mixing different types of fuels together helps at times also. Add a percentage of wood or coal to harder to burn materials in order to balance out the burn rates and heat output.

This is one of the things I have tried to stress in my email to him that air-blow does help to keep the fire going better, even locos use the spent steam to create draft.

Try putting a custom built digital control system on friends boiler and then try to get him to understand that there is no way in hell he can make adjustments to a digital self adjusting system based on his level of knowledge.

"Start a fire then push the button" handed him his ass a few times. He got the 'push the button part' right, being there was only one to push, but step one wasn't working for him so he figured it must be a controller problem.

Hello sc6chuck9:

Personaly dont know of such web site. However from experience in building such things it may be of help if you first think of the wattage output you wish from your generator. Unfortunately vague answers only provide disaster.

One first appearance you have the necessary machinery. Also you need to think how to boiler seal, by weld or bolt.

Cheers Peter