Effects of Wave Type and Hz Variance on Tungsten Heaters

Sounds like a homework question. Start by looking up 'RMS' voltage.

If I were to design a more efficient 'space heater' -- one that could produce the same BTUs as a 1500 Watt unit, although only consume 500 Watts, would the altering of the following variables achieve this?

1) try differing the 60Hz to somewhere between 500Hz and 20k.

2) try square wave forms, or triangle wave forms.

3) try frequencies that have some resonant association with the mass of the filament.

Questions? Comments?

The short answer is NO. Consuming 1500W will give you 1500W of heat, nothing will change this.

That is simply not true, and a poor answer, 1500watts consumed by a dimplex oil heater will provide x energy release as heat and produce x temperature variance, a reflective carbon sheath using 1500 watts will be different and so on

so 1500 watts consumption gives you 1500 watts conversion into heat energy not heat as a measurable BTU amount, that is complete rubbish why? because there would only be one heating manufacturer in the world.

For instance we have a 12 volt 100 watt heater that can produce 100C in 15 litres of water over 2 hours, no other heater in the world can do this at 12 volt 100 watts, in short we are about to change the course of water heating forever, (not a prototype, we have manufactured 100s) and are in the process of completing the design for the heater to be adapted for caravans. Proving beyond doubt that 100 watts is not the same heat output for all devices.

Why with ours? simple, we have no metallic element to heat first, no element that in its own conversion of energy to heat to expand and contract and convert the energy input into other forms other than heat, colder days will require more energy simply to first get a normal sheath element or old style resistance wire hot, ours is as ambient as a woolen jumper remains.

Nothing ever changes, simply better designers and better materials.

So yes you can provide more "heat" with 1500 watts with a more efficient wave design- in short heaters perform primarily designed on the good or bad materials chosen - heat capacitance is key- follow by radiant control then insulative or directive properties. Finding the perfect wave form will not grant you the perfect heater simply the perfect wave to element energy conversion, if the element is rubbish and the remainder of the heater then the point is moot

That's total bulls$h!t. I don't live in your jurisdiction, nor have I been a victim of this nonsense, but I hope some local yokel nails this to the wall.

Live in your jurisdiction? been a victim of this nonsense???? I am not sure if you are answering this thread or having an argument with an out of towner you found ringing your partner.

Our electrical heating equipment is sold "to" the Japanese. So this may be slightly out of your league technology wise.

If you were answering my remarks, I fail to see how one would fulfil your contradicting request, if your are saying intellect from outside where I live cannot have a conversation over the internet due to some supernatural phenomenon I am unaware of I am prepared to let you have these beliefs, though it would seem that "A local yokel" as you put it would imply a hillbillie or some such character, which people of lesser intellect spring to mind, in which case outsourcing from your area due to this supernatural intellect blocking would seem moot.

You are free to disagree with any of my comments, though it would appear the same cannot be said of yours.

Check out our website, perhaps i can sell you a high tech non metalic element heater.

You will never sell me anything.

100 Watts for 2 hours heats 15 Liters of water to 100 degC ???

IF your STARTING temperature was already 88.5 degC or you are using a heat-pump with a SEER greater than 6, that may be possible. Otherwise, your claim is either delusional nonsense or deliberate fraud.

Using simple high-school math and physics and standard values for water...

100 [Watts] = 100 [Joules/second]

100 [Joules/second] * 3600 [seconds/hour] * 2 [hours] = 720000 [Joules]

15 [Liters] = 15000 [grams]

720000 [Joules] / 15000 [grams] / 4.18 [Joules/gram-degC] = 11.5 [degC] (Temperature RISE)

Simply adding 100 Watts to 15 Liters of water for 2 Hours will only RAISE the water temperature 11.5 degC.

I welcome any mathematical or Units corrections. Regulatory test labs and probably law enforcement should be notified to investigate your claims.

Wow I really do enjoy reading comments from people who don't do this for a living and have some great book knowledge of contribution - perhaps engineers need no longer be qualified/ perhaps a few years of reading from text books is all it takes/

For those reading the aforementioned diatribe of mathematics, you may note it is missing some four calculations which render it worthless the moment it misses the first

For a start, voltage or watts do not determine power - 12 volts at 1000 amps will cook an elephant, 1000 volts at 1 amp will knock you over.

This is a 12 volt system and when you change to lower voltage amperage increases, as i said this technology is over the heads of beginners and internet only engineers, for a start every heat exchanger or element you have described is a series element like Resistance heating, this is a parallel interface the energy travels beside itself not in a continuous stream. Perhaps if you researched thin film carbon element you would realise the element is neither metallic nor is the energy forced to travel in a Que, it arrives instantly at the point of heating.

As for quoting thermodynamics, perhaps you should have note for a basic experiment in series power- the extension cord - keep increasing the length until no power comes out the end - watts, as in the 1500 watts described is a set amount of power - at 240 volts is x amps, at 12 volts, well I am sure those who do this for a living well understand what would happen to a standard 10 amp lead at 12 volts - In short large amounts of energy is consumed in transmission always either by heat transference to the supply cable - distance and metallic expansion of the element.

I doubt you could explain where the energy goes in the distance equation - the1000 meter 10m amp lead does not get hot,yet at the end of the line it simply will not light the house light bulb. the fact your grand equation, had neither amperage nor any other variable shows the level of you true knowledge-

If wikipedia or whatever sites you surf for your answers was even close to accurate, then there would be no need for education, we would simply arrive on site and surf the net.

Or if you are indeed correct, that would mean the largest Japanese shipping firm is buying dud heating equipment and that they have gone from the country of masters of electrical engineering to idiots overnight, and have continued this for some 6 years and over in excess of 2000 units.

By the way Joule calculation does not work.

Try this, energy to lift is equal to the energy derived from the fall - that is Newtonian thermodynamics correct?- or in English, you cannot get more energy from the falling object than it takes to lift it as the amount of energy is the same

So in joules using any joule calculator that you like try this.

what is the energy required to lift 10 ton 10 meters in one second?

now using the same calculator, see how many joules you get from ten ton falling 10 metres in one second.

the calculators show that for the mere power of a light bulb you should be able to lift ten ton ten metres in one second- most modern lifting equipment is not brilliant but is around 80 percent of written (non Joule)equations- to say that the joule calculation is correct means that modern machinery needs 10000 times more energy than it should and is also is saying that a wooden lever is 9900 times more efficient than a crane.

everyone reading this should try that exercise -

additional proof it is a calculation that never works is using joules for heat transfer for cooling, that method and logic would mean a house roof run as a heat exchanger would equally cool a house in summer by each degree that the temperature rose or close enough to it. gee what a genius you are, you can take your calculator a save the world from solar flares and take out every airconditioner company to boot

I came on this site imagining that it was for engineers not school students or net surfers, not simply pretending they are clever, but insinuating that people who do it for a living are not. I think i will pass on returning to this site.

Good riddance.

One last one for those who wish to show their children, why these calculations are false.

9 volts according to these newtonian calculations cannot melt an ounce of iron in under 2 minutes.

take your child outside with an ounce of steel wool and a standard qsquare 9 volt battery and keep running the battery through the iron use tongs to hold it as it lights up and disintergrates before your eyes. evry calculation says that one once should take 10's of kilowatts to melt it, hence your pots do not melt on your stove at 3000 watts, you can put such a battery on your tounge, it bites but there are no such wattages or amps.

Great engineers understand how to modify the item you are heating through mechanics using low voltage to give the sane result as a furnace, idiots follow books that a child has just seen can be proven false, and futher easily understand that if you can melt steel in seconds with such voltage, then heating water really is a breeze for an engineer that understands the difference between the real world they can see and prove, and rubbish in books that cannot show the calculation in specific heat capacity of iron and wattage and the outcome you have just been shown

What calculation ever said that it would take 10's of kilowatts to melt an ounce of steel wool? Those are not the most relevant units, anyway. Do you just make this stuff up? Since when are electrical calculations "newtonian"?

GA, I'll believe your calculations and use of basic physics until something better comes along.

I'll wear your "poor answer" vote as a badge of honor.

I hope your scam doesn't defraud too many people before you're shut down.

You can't do that, period.

Assuming that the waveform changes only in the x direction, the filament temperature should average the same regardless of frequency.

Nichrome is usually for heaters; tungsten is usually for light bulbs. What is the whole drift of this exercise, anyway?

All this work has been done.

Look up RMS of waveforms, it's a bit of secondary school calculus for calculating the relationship between a given waveform, and the amount of energy given as heat. The factors for many standard shapes (sine, square, triangular) are usually given as well.

In general changing the frequency doesn't make any difference and changing between waveshape doesn't make any difference (assuming they have the same RMS value). You'll have to increase the current through your heater if you want more heat.

Efficiency cannot be improved by varying the waveform shape or frequency. Electrical resistance heaters already convert 100% of the electrical input to heat.

You appear to be looking for an over-unity condition which would violate laws of physics that apply in this universe. I strongly suggest you avoid the junk science of over-unity devices.