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Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/27/2010 5:27 PM

hey folks,

just wondered what is the geophysical/meteorological explanation for the fact that the storm system that dumped snow from Florida, the Carolinas, to New York, is now dumping rain on Nova Scotia and Newfoundland in the north.

Did this system warm up because of passing over warm bodies of water? Just wondering, because I think the norm is the opposite: in winter months, rainy systems in the south usually turn to snow by the time they reach us up here, after passing over cold bodies of water.

Also noticed, the wind speeds seem to increase the further north. Not sure why?

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#1

Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/27/2010 6:04 PM

How about if we just chalk it up to a weather anomaly. It's now dumping snow in the north, where you seem to think it belongs. (Just kidding, I don't want the stuff here in southern Arizona) New York City's airports are closed, or were just an hour ago. It's there now.

This has been a strange weather year, Ja!

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/27/2010 6:29 PM

Yes it has been a strange weather year, no doubt!

But the system is really dumping rain on us right now in Newfoundland. It may still be snowing in New York but further north it's going up to 6 or 7 degrees on this storm, and all wet.

While the south (and Europe) have been struggling with unexpected snow, we've been battered up here with rain storms bordering on hurricane like conditions all through the christmas season. I put it down to the usual unusual weather anomalies (for which we are duly famous), but was surprised to see snow south turn to rain further north.

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#5
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/27/2010 6:35 PM

I'm dense. For some reason, I thought you lived in New York.

Sorry for the ignorance on my part. I see what you mean.

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#18
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/29/2010 11:23 AM

New York will eventually be part of Canada... when we take over... mmmuuahahaha

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#19
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/29/2010 11:26 AM

remember, along with NY is her debt.......your not laughing as hard are you? ;)

can I also interest you in a state called.....Illinois

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#20
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/29/2010 11:44 AM

good one....

the only difference I can see between germany in the twenties, and america in the 2kteens, is that america is steeped in the ideology of freedom, especially of speech.

It is changing, and one day soon, a new empire will be born in the US, that will cut through the bullshit, and dictate the solutions. It is a recurring theme in human history.

I don't say this with a lot of enthusiasm for the subject, but the seeds are sown, and growing.

Debt is presumeably an investment. What are the real returns on giving the military a trillion dollars a year to spend, while millions of families lose their homes? Where is the ROI?

Americans are still smart, hardworking, adaptable people.. there is still time to come to sense. Right now, money rules politics. that is a bit of a problem.]

Chris

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#22
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/29/2010 12:30 PM

oh......a revolution....yep, were 1 for 1 on that. That thing about Illinois, they are broke and bad credit....thee state troopers (police) the gas stations are even reluctant to have them fill up. They pay with vouchers. .......so if someone tells you 'your in a state of illinois'.....it means your bankrupt and have bad credit.......aaahhh corrupt government working at it's best.

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#40
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

01/01/2011 9:13 AM

Would be nice if the US could spend less on the military, but unfortunately, that would mean that other countries would have to shoulder their share. Ain't going to happen.

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#26
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/30/2010 11:25 AM

And if you are considering Illinois...you may as well stop by here in california too.

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#35
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/30/2010 7:17 PM

being from wisconsin.....i can't talk too smart either. We just elected a new governor that turn down fed money to build a rail to MN. He turned it down because after running it could not sustain the operating cost and he wants to be fiscal responsable...... There's hope yet.

I hear your feet are pretty wet in CA, you keeping yourself dry?

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#23
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/29/2010 3:34 PM

Actually isn't NY where those old Irish groups used to form to try and go north to invade and take over Canada (Until the US military stepped in of course)? You wouldn't want some place where anti-english irish reside, aren't the anti-english french bad enough?

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#24
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/29/2010 3:47 PM

I'm not sure what you are referring to... (doesn't sound like the 1812 stuff I know of)

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#25
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/29/2010 7:25 PM

Wasn't it the Fennians in the US after the civil War that tried to ivade and take over Canada?

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#2

Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/27/2010 6:20 PM

Not yet official, but the UK's almost certainly had its coldest December since 1910. Climate change just fu*ks things up.

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#7
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/27/2010 7:01 PM

It's interesting about the UK thing, my dad pointed out to me years ago, that when there's bad weather in the UK we tend to get it nice over here. Since he mentioned it, I have yet to see any occasion when there was severe weather reported for UK and we did not have unseasonably nice weather in NL, just as he said. So there seems to be something to it, and maybe an alternate weather pattern associated with "La Nina" perhaps.

In fact the crappy weather you've had this year (and last, if I recall right) are the sort of weather we usually have....

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#8
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/27/2010 7:19 PM

I seem to remember that they put last year's chill down to a wave in the jet-stream, or somethin'. Could be that if it wiggles down (southward) here maybe it'll be going up over your side.

[Just heard on the radio: "... our record-breaking cold spell is coming to an end ...", so maybe better get your snow-shoes dusted off].

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#9
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/27/2010 9:51 PM

Sure enough, a colder spell is in our forecast. darn!

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#4

Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/27/2010 6:31 PM

Pretend globally; try to apply locally.

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#6
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Re: Snow in the south, rain in the north

12/27/2010 6:42 PM

locally, towels are being applied to soak up generous leaks which are both caused by and can't be addressed in high winds and wet weather..

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#10

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/28/2010 12:13 PM

maybe you should ask Al Gore.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/28/2010 3:10 PM

It is not Al Gore, but since the time when US stared to follow up the Saudi King wishes and orders and carry out wars in behalf of him in Yugoslavia,Iraq,Afghanistan the problems started.

We should call him the king of USA.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/28/2010 4:17 PM

The petrodollar can do any thigh he wants,even to buy top leaders,no wonder.

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#11

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/28/2010 3:01 PM

Every thing changed upside down in this world ,not only the weather,don't wonder too much.

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#14

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/28/2010 10:28 PM

there is a lot of hot air in Washington...

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#29
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 1:31 PM

Begining with Nancy Pelosi

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#15

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/29/2010 12:36 AM

The ocean is warmer. The polar drift is warmer.

The climate energy is higher, so the violence is higher.

It will be interesting to see if the polar regions get more or less polar ice forming as a result of these energy expenditures. I think the latter, as several thousand times this current weather energy expenditure is more like the surplus to be addressed.

But on the bright side, Newfoundland might become comparatively idyllic as the major storms seek the major energy release centers, rather than the 'natural routes'.

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#16
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/29/2010 7:31 AM

heh heh. We are naturally hoping for some kind of "Bahamas north" outcome... But the way things are going this year, I suspect we are going to lose a lot of trees to big wet hurricane-like systems as a result.

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#17
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/29/2010 10:46 AM

I think you have it right. Pump more energy into a closed system (ocean and atmosphere) and you get more turbulence. I'd say that the jet stream is more convoluted than 'normal' this year, and when it dips south all that polar air comes rushing in. And the polar air is wetter than usual because the polar ice cap is shrinking, leaving more exposed water. Last week we saw California battered by an unending 'pineapple express' with warm, wet, subtropical air rushing northward. The violence of the impact when that wave crashed into the polar air pushed cold air out of the way and into our neighborhood. The OP asking why the storm seemed to warm up as it raced up the east coast is a bit baffling, but the center of the storm appeared to be offshore and it was more or less following the Gulf Stream. It may have picked up warm water vapor along the way. Nova Scotia may become more like the Bahamas on some days, but more like Baffin Island later in the week. Get used to it - it's gonna be a rough ride (and don't forget to bring a towel).

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#27
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 12:23 PM

Aren't permanent polar ice caps a relatively recent thing in the history of earth? It is my understanding that current hypotheses and data suggest that during the period between the 5 Ice Ages there weren't any permanent Polar Ice Caps. These inter-Ice Age period are substantially longer than the Ice Age peiriods themselves, thus permanent polar ice caps are really an anomaly. Even during this current Ice Age of 2.5 MYA there have been interglaciation periods of hundreds and thousands of years where the estimated mean temperature, based ice core data for the last 450,000 y, was substantially higher than it is today, which might suggest the ice caps receded substantially more than today.

So I guess the use of the term warmer is really relative to the period to which you are comparing. It sure seems colder than 6 months ago.

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#32
In reply to #27

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 2:59 PM

Yes it's all fascinating how Earth came to have a Man enabling climate about 0.2 MYA.

By the look of things early Man had a fairly tough time, and didn't 'succeed' until 0.06 MYA. Didn't 'prosper' until 0.002 MYA

(I think it's helpful, when considering 'time lines' and 'cycles' if all the values are in a common unit.)

34.5

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#21

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/29/2010 11:48 AM

I live in the southeastern US. The temperature here was cold before the weather system arrived. The weather front arriving from the southwest provided the moisture but the existing temperature caused it to be snow rather than rain. If you had warmer conditions at the time of arrival, you would get rain.

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#28

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 1:10 PM

Artsmith

My take on the warming currently in Atlantic Canada, as well as southern Ontario and Quebec is related to the low pressure systems now in place. The low pressure system off the Atlantic seaboard is allowing the counterclockwise movement of air to bring cold and wet air along the US sea coast (nor'easter). This cold wet air turns to snow once on the mainland.

Meanwhile, lows moving along the jet stream allow warmer southern flow of air to move across Ontario and Quebec and exits to the Atlantic Ocean through Newfoundland. The second low from the west overrides the southern low along the seaboard. It brings warm air to the Atlantic region of Canada. As this Jet stream low passes north of England and its counterclockwise rotation cold wet air will dump on the UK especially when the low is positioned east and north of the UK.

This warming trend will last until the weekend after which we will get our normal Arctic Spill from west to east. I am not sure this is good news for the UK as it likely means the southern low will move further north and deliver rain but a good possibility of snow as this low moves east of the UK. A waffling forecaster (is there any other kind?) told me so.

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 2:12 PM

aha, kevinm, like every weather forecast, it all sounds like it makes sense... except that we are having snow already today: our unseasonable warm spell is over. I should have looked at the jetstream maps back when we were in bahamanian bliss. I do think you're right that there are clues in the jetstream, but the interpretation is a little off.

The warm air that we did enjoy all through december does not seem to have come from Ontario/Quebec - since you guys were snowed under while we were enjoying temps well above zero both night and day.

BTW, I haven't had a chance yet to set up a meter stick or something to look at branch movement re: the barometer effect. We have had (seemingly unending) rain since then, that the sun when it briefly appears has become the subject of disbelief, wonder and ridicule.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 2:36 PM

Its is all due to Poll reversal. I think my sister the Paleontologist has it right. Every few hundred million years the earth goes through a poll swap just so we can renew our planets resources. never know exactly what we will find under that frozen tundra.

What fun we will all have!!!!!

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#38
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/31/2010 9:34 AM

Hummm, Pole Swap......

I am not quite sure how that would effect me here in Northern California (Tahoe) but my friends in Oklahoma would not be too happy. Would that be China and Australia as the Pole Caps?

Ahh a reason to go buy a globe always wanted a reason.

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#39
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/31/2010 11:00 PM

"China and Australia" Good grief - you need one

How about Opposite each other?

Like one here

and one here

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#41
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

01/01/2011 10:03 AM

Not south to North, but North to West, South to East it is considered that the pole swap but not on the same axis.

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#43
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

01/01/2011 8:53 PM

But that's what I did

You're just unhappy I put the new north pole at Lake Tahoe and now the south pole is a floating ice cap.

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#44
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

01/03/2011 12:21 PM

Well that was most unkind of you.

I am sure that Base Camp has some how now become the new Hawaii.

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#45
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

01/03/2011 4:33 PM

<Knock knock> ...

Hello?

Hi, Reality here. You taking your meds?

... mumble ...

Has water ice suddenly become magnetic?

... mumble ...

Jus' axin'

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#46
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

01/03/2011 5:06 PM

Well there is a thread on magnetic water

It's actually an interesting question if/how magnetic pole reversal changes anything.

'Slipping of the crust' relative to the axis of rotation would be a different scale of effects altogether.

Sort of "all Continent sudden drift put China at the axis of rotation".

But I'm not a paleontologist

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#47
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

01/03/2011 6:46 PM

"It's actually an interesting question if/how magnetic pole reversal changes anything..."

If it was a quick flip, it'd be helluva funny to have a bird's-eye view of a bunch of orienteers in full flow .

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#33
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 4:25 PM

We have not had any snow at all (well maybe 1 inch) this winter. I was in Toronto this week and no snow there as well. Very mild weather for the time of year. Any snow you are aware is Lake effect on the lee of great lakes. Lots in Sarnia area west of London Ont and south of Georgian Bay. Very little elsewhere, at least in S. Ontario. My daughter drove down (out) east and said the same about Quebec and New Brunswick. Not sure where you are located but in Kingston and TO, no snow. I guess you are more west.

Tree branches were up with sunny weather in AM but now are falling down. So snow/rain likely on the way dang it anyway. It is time for Canadians to reap the affects of climate change. Should be just fine to my liking. I would choose palm trees instead of balsam anytime.

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#34
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 5:44 PM

"..instead of balsam anytime". Weeeelll. I'm with you on wishing some warmer times up here, but I wouldn't give up the balsam every time. In July or August when the sap is bursting out with the heat, balsam fir is sweeter than a palm tree. (at least, palm trees don't smell good afaik!)

I suspect the var could survive a mild winter with no snow! Why not. Then we'll shoot the moose and grow some apples....

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#36
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Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 7:20 PM

I am not familiar with "var". Are var those stunted trees in Newfie? And yes I like balsam. They do make better Christmas trees than Palms but I haven never tasted the sap.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

12/30/2010 9:27 PM

Var is just another way to say fir. The stunted ones are crannicks. I wouldn't taste the sap it might be hard to get off your tongue!. Spruce gum is okay to chew when it's dry - but I think you know that up on Wolfe Island as well.

Just wait til the climate changes, then we'll see who has the stunted trees.

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#42

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

01/01/2011 11:22 AM

Sounds like pole reversal has finally arrived.

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#48

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

01/03/2011 7:01 PM

About face, cubbies. Now we go thisaway instead of thataway.

(Silva still exists, eh? We used the mirror/hairline version in the Forest Service.)

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#49
In reply to #48

Re: Snow in the South, Rain in the North

01/03/2011 7:09 PM

Mirror/hairline good (got one somewhere...). Didn't stumble upon a photo. Must be losing my knack.

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