Previous in Forum: A Millisecond Moment: When The Moon And Space Station Eclipse The Sun   Next in Forum: What is This Device?
Close
Close
Close
17 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru
Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Centurion, South Africa
Posts: 3921
Good Answers: 97

Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/07/2011 2:15 AM

I know there were posts about lightning strikes already but I cannot find what I was looking for.

My son had a lightning strike a few days ago in his double story house. (Fortunately they were all on the ground floor when it happened)

The bolt knocked a 1/2 meter hole in the cement tiled roof.

Then it struck the wiring.

Some of the nails keeping the ceiling to the brandering was either sticking out about 20mm or was on the floor or furniture.

all the embedded light fittings popped out.

The ceiling is broken in some places.

one of the roof beams snapped and there seems to be a 500mm part missing.

the reason why I am asking is that the insurance assessor said the damage was caused by the vacuum when the oxygen were used to oxidize material. These agents must know what they talk about because the do many such cases. BUT????

There should first be a shock wave , supersonic expansion because of heat. hammer blow action when hitting the tiles.. Particles / plasma moving into the roof area.

What actions and reactions did or could occur ?

__________________
Never do today what you can put of until tomorrow - Student motto
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#1

Re: Effect and mechanics of lightning strike

01/07/2011 2:40 AM

You may not have much choice, but can you request a better insurance assessor?

Short circuit currents and other such transients can induce large magnetic forces capable of moving cables and busbars into or away from each other. Rapid heating of moist areas could generate steam at explosive pressures. But even if a fire is started, the oxidation process would not be so rapid as to create a large vacuum (maximum of 6" Hg even if all the oxygen were instantly consumed).

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#2

Re: Effect and mechanics of lightning strike

01/07/2011 3:00 AM

Hi, Hendrik, Glad they are ok.
Dunno what the mechanisms are, I expect theyve done some scale model high voltage discharge tests at some time...I mean if you worked in an establishment that had a HV machine you'd just have to do it wouldn't you? Zapp your Action Man or Barbie too I expect
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Resting under the Major Oak
Posts: 4347
Good Answers: 181
#3

Re: Effect and mechanics of lightning strike

01/07/2011 6:34 AM

Good that they're OK.

I know what they must have gone through. I was sat in my local pub when it and the house next door were struck. The house took the brunt of it causing a minor fire, all wiring and appliances fried.
I was sat at the bar with one eye on the television news when all 3 televisions around the bar exploded, the satellite system caught fire and the jukebox was a smoking wreck. Strange thing is all the fixed wiring survived.
Good job they serve "real" ale, I could carry on drinking.

__________________
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Analog and Digital Circuit Design Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Transformers, Motors & Drives, EM Launchers Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Applied Electrical, Optical, and Mechanical

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 1207
Good Answers: 119
#4

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/07/2011 8:43 AM

The superheated plasma (air blast) alone is enough to severely damage walls and ceilings (especially old plaster).

The primary mechanical/structural damage comes from the discharge vaporising even the smallest traces of water to steam with explosive results. We used Megavolt Marx Banks (tiny energy compared to actual lightning) on typical construction lumber and cement based building products. The stud lumber bursts into toothpick sized splinters and concrete block just explodes period. I'd expect to see twisted or melted nails and fasteners, but we didn't test those because of inadequate ballistic shielding.

Your adjuster may know claims values, but he should leave the scientific explanations to people who actually know a little about the topic.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Wannabeabettawelda

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Posts: 7940
Good Answers: 458
#16
In reply to #4

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 6:06 PM

GA.

Especially the part about moisture content of materials being turned into super-heated steam. I've seen plenty of trees where the lightning strike blasts off the bark due to that same process. When our neighbors tree was hit by lightning about two years ago, I found pieces of bark in my back yard, 50 to 60 feet away from the tree that took the direct hit. We lost a number of electronic items on that side of the house just from being in the vicinity of the strike. All in all, we were lucky we didn't sustain greater damage or injuries.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1688
Good Answers: 145
#5

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/07/2011 10:37 AM

The experts don't all agree upon things so I would not automatically assume that the insurance assessor knows everything.

The process started (the part you are not asking about) with a corona path upward from something that is often high and/or often sharp. This could have been the house, a nearby tree, a TV antenna tower, whatever. Then, you probably had some more significant current rise upward toward the cloud in a somewhat jerky manner. After that, you probably had from one to seven or eight "flickering flashes". If the discharge was from the bottom of the cloud then it was probably negative charge and if the discharge was from the top of the cloud then it was probably a positive discharge. This all could have taken about a second, more or less, which is a pretty short time but it might be longer than many people would have guessed

As the above was taking place the wind might have been blowing. The corona path may have started somewhere upwind and been blown 5 to 15 feet onto the top of the house by the time (probably less than one second) that the big bolt started to flow.

In terms of the damage it is not possible for most of us to understand the power of a little superheated steam. My neighbors tree was hit once and a 1" x 3" x 0.75" piece of bark flew about 75 feet and knocked a 2.5" x 6" hole in a 1x6 fence board (rather new board, was in good shape).

The electromagnetic pulse of a lightning strike is strong, but I would be a little slow to accept that it threw the nails across the room. Frying equipment throughout the house is very realistic, even if the energy was induced and not directly conducted.

As for the missing part of your roof, did you check in the bushes two or three houses down?

Bruce

__________________
Few things limit our potential as much as knowing answers and setting aside questions.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Anonymous Poster
#6

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 12:02 AM

I understand why you want to know what happened; however, I'm a little confused about the insurance company. Are they, or is he, saying that you are not covered?

While it's nice to propose a theory, you want the insurance company to make you whole.

Get a second, and perhaps a third, opinion. For the Supreme Creator's benefit, don't sign on the dotted line until you are satisfied!!!!!!

Good Luck in the contest.

A radio operator who has suffered a EMP

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Centurion, South Africa
Posts: 3921
Good Answers: 97
#7

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 12:06 AM

Thanks Bruce & all

The ceiling is gypsum board nailed onto brandering nailed onto the wooden beams.

The ceilings of all the rooms bulged out and some of the about 30mm nails pulled out.

Maybe the assessor will say the policy do not cover damage caused by vacuum - we will wait and see.

The satellite dish was in on the fun (although not directly hit) The face plate (about 100 x 100mm) on the outlets on both floors was blown of. The pvc covering on the coax to the decoder flared open. The decoder show heat / burn marks and was fried on the inside.

Even the radio linked PIR alarm sensors is out.

The TV was on but survived because it was coupled via the decoder/DVD.

__________________
Never do today what you can put of until tomorrow - Student motto
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sheboygan, WI USA
Posts: 372
Good Answers: 13
#8

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 12:09 AM

I have an eyebolt that was the anchor for an insulator of an 8kV utility line. Where the eyebolt and insulator made contact the eyebolt is oxidized and non-conductive for about a 1/4" area, the top of the pole was burnt. In the non-conductive area of the eyebolt there was arcing to the insulator base and in the insulator causing Radio-TV interference.

James R Booker said lightening can do anything it wants to, he had a bolt with a 3/4" diameter hole burned the length of it.

An interesting finding recently was that at the base of the arc there are x-rays, coupled with the ozone from the ionized air and materials, and the UV light from the lightening bolt. There is some research that exposures (combined with and for how long) may have connection to Lou Gehrigs Disease or others. Electric arc welders would be exposed to this frequently, along with high voltage line repairmen and electric substation workers if this is true, which electric field intensity and maybe magnetic field, versus the person being near a lightening bolt of some magnitude which would need to exceed some as yet undefined threshold. Not defined is the key word.

__________________
"I believe we are masters of our lives - we hold all the cards and it is up to us to use them right." Vesna Vulova - survived 33,000ft fall
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 348
Good Answers: 10
#9

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 2:23 AM

Air is a mixture of gases - 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen - with traces of water vapor, carbon dioxide, argon, and various other components, accordingly a total extraction of oxygen ( 21% constituant) from air even if it ocours simply cannot create vacum thus the insurance guys are just throwing jargon in their vested interests.

During a thunder storm a cloud gets charged and induces an opposit charge on earth, when the gradient reaches 5000 to 10000 volts per cm flash of lightning starts from cloud to earth (or to another clod as the case may be) with a speed of 0.5 % that of light or approximately 30 cm per micro second, as the pilot reaches the earth electrostatic field increses a streamer shoots up from the earth as well.

A lightning strike which appears to the eye as a single flash is a number of strokes with a time interval of 0.005 to 0.5 seconds.

The lightning stroke being of vevy high gradient and v high frequency has the inherent cheresterstics to travel through shortest or a path of lest resistance hence after striking at a certain point can jump across air gaps inside a building.

A tall structure (building) would provide protection to smaller adjescent buildings if these happen to fall in a zone under an angle of 45 degrees from the top of the taller structure otherwise in areas of high lightning probablity any building would require a lightning protection to save from damage ( Grids and transmission lines have lightning protection in the form of ground wire conductors atop).

__________________
Knowledge sharing is a WIN-WIN situation
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1630
Good Answers: 20
#10

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 2:39 AM

I suppose if your house does get hit by a lightning bolt all sorts of nasties can happen............but vacuum.............I think not. Were windows blown into the house, which I think would have had to occur if a vacuum was created inside the house, particulaly if, the the said vacuum, was responsible for the other damage!!!

Not so long ago a student of mine bought a brand new 20m cray boat, and we had rather a fierce thunderstorm and unfortunately his vessel received a direct hit from a bolt of lightning, which destroyed every piece of electical equipment on board including radar, sonar, engine sensors, gauges, electronic control gear, lighting and power circuits, etc............the boat had a lightning conductor and ground plate. The boat was a 6000 series aluminium/alloy construction.........there was no gripes at all from the insurance company.

__________________
TO BE. or NOT TO BE. That is the question!! The Bard
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 206
Good Answers: 4
#11

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 6:10 AM

Hendrik,

Ek is bly hulle is ongedeerd! Sê Henry se Willem moet vir my [sy skoonpa] fotos stuur.

groete

jurie de kock

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
2
Guru
Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member United Kingdom - Big Ben - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Altair 8800 - New Member Canada - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3968
Good Answers: 120
#12

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 7:05 AM

That insurance appraiser comment about the oxygen being quickly being used so the loss of 20% or the air volume makes the building crumple around it is a form of attempted fraud if they state they will not pay for that.

The strike is all done in a millisecond or so, the steam from water and trapped air push out over tens of milliseconds,but still short. The plasma in the arc can cause combustion if it is forced to travel by a bad conductor, like wet wood. With metal, it will take the metallic path - and cover some areas with metal oxide dust/particles.

The magnetic effects are also over in a millisecond. Nails drawn out, wires torn loose, etc.

This is all lightning damage. The insurance pays for all - except the deductable or other ratio they have.

These searches will help

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&expIds=17259,17311,27586,27757&xhr=t&q=%22lightning+damage%22+%2Bassessor&cp=28&pf=p&sclient=psy&safe=off&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22lightning+damage%22+%2Bassessor&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=2c0b2ef780091f9e

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&expIds=17259,17311,27586,27757&xhr=t&q=%22lightning+damage%22+%2Binsurance&cp=28&pf=p&sclient=psy&safe=off&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22lightning+damage%22+%2Binsurance&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=2c0b2ef780091f9e

__________________
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1630
Good Answers: 20
#17
In reply to #12

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/09/2011 3:00 AM

It would probably not even be 20%, may be more like 15% or even lower.........and whether or not a prduct of incomplete combustion, CO, would have had time to ignite maybe questionable........bearing in mind the time period over which the event takes place.

Just a thought...........not based on any empirical knowldge that I have.

__________________
TO BE. or NOT TO BE. That is the question!! The Bard
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1601
Good Answers: 58
#13

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 9:04 AM

While I believe that lightning was responsible for the damage,I don't believe the adjustor's explanation of the physics of failure. The important thing is to determine whether it's required for you to understand the physics, or whether you just want to satisfy your curiosity. I use a rather outdated publication "Lightning and Lightning Protection" by William Hart and Edgar Malone. Library of Congress Card Number 79-65691. "The destructive power of lightning arises from the high pressure generated in the lightning channel. In open air, energy deposited by a single stroke is in the order of 10e5 joules per meter. This is equivalent to approximately 22g of TNT per meter, or one tenth of a ton of TNT, for the average channel."

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Analog and Digital Circuit Design Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Transformers, Motors & Drives, EM Launchers Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Applied Electrical, Optical, and Mechanical

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 1207
Good Answers: 119
#14

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 10:39 AM

Hopefully your adjuster was just making light conversation and your insurance company will step-up and cover the cost of all appropriate repairs.

Direct lightning strikes can reach 5000 to 100000 Amps and release up to 500 Mega-Joules of energy. By comparison, Pulsed Power toys like Coin Shrinkers , Marx Banks, Rail Guns, Coil Guns, etc., have similar peak currents, but release only a small fraction of that energy. All of these devices can easily vaporize metal and throw shrapnel at supersonic velocities. While educational and occasionally fun to play with, they are lethal in many ways and must be treated with great respect.

My point is that the electromagnetic forces of a direct lightning strike can be orders of magnitude higher than most people think. While explosive vaporization forces may typically cause the most damage in home strikes, one should not dismiss the electromagnetic forces.

Note: Newest experimental railguns are up to ~30 Mega-Joules projectile kinetic energy. Impressive, but still small compared to mother nature.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#15

Re: Effect and Mechanics of Lightning Strike

01/08/2011 12:45 PM

To prevent next strike put a steel wrope along the roof and connect it to ground. This would take the shop and prevent damages to the house. Very effective protection, but sometimes the rope just melts if the lightning carried more than usual charge.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 17 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (2); aurizon (1); Brave Sir Robin (1); BruceFlorida (1); CoronaCameraMan (1); Hendrik (1); jurie sa (1); mjb1962853 (2); MOBI (2); mountk2 (1); TonyS (1); Tornado (1); user-deleted-1105 (1); welderman (1)

Previous in Forum: A Millisecond Moment: When The Moon And Space Station Eclipse The Sun   Next in Forum: What is This Device?

Advertisement