Refrigerator

EXACT-A-MUNDO

Umm, I am of a dissenting opinion. It's not so much the refrigerant that is the issue, but the compressor oil.

Laying the refrigerator on its side may cause oil from the compressor to run into the cooling tubes. It depends on the refrigerator.

If you have no other choice, lay the refrigerator on the opposite side of the discharge line. You can look in your user's manual to locate where the discharge line for your refrigerator lies.

Do not lay the refrigerator flat on its side. Keep the top of the refrigerator higher than the bottom. At least this minimizes the risk of mixing compressor oil into the cooling tubes.

Leave the refrigerator unplugged for 2 to 4 hours after transporting in a non-upright position.

The best solution is to rent a truck and strap it upright or simply pay an appliance store (or local mover) to move it for you.

This is mostly echos what kramarat's post says.

I'm leaving my GA vote in place, cause the fact is laying it on it's side does no damage to the fridge. It's turning it on too soon that's the problem.

Cheers.

I've always just found a way to move them upright. I think it's another one of those things that was imbedded in my brain by my Grandfather when I was a kid. Just gotta remember to slow down around those corners while transporting.

Hi guys. This is not so smart, I am on another computer and forgot my password but wanted to respond to AH. Yea, it really is me.

I know this is no excuse but I was up all night and am exhausted thus I wrote the wrong thing. You are absolutely correct in the fact that it is the oil that must drain back, but I believe the refrigerant is also a factor in some small degree.

Now I am going home to take my son to Scouts then I am going to sleep. Be back on Friday!

Go Scouts!

You forgot to mention that the discharge line is the smaller of the two lines that enter and exit the compressor. If the suction line (the larger of the two) is on the up side, than it can be layed flat on the side opposite the suction line. I still would go for the 24 hour wait to allow any oil to return to the compressor and it may need to be warmed up before usage, depending on the climate during moving.

Good catch.

I would concur that waiting longer times can't hurt.

This looks like good advice.

http://www.applianceaid.com/faq-side.html

Whenever possible I use one of these and pack stuff around it to prevent movement during transport.

Sounds smart to me, too.

I would agree with Anonymous Hero.

The lube oil is always there in the compressor. The discharge line wont let the oil pass through it, because of an NRV reaction of the compressor's pump, but it can easily flow through the suction line to the cooling lines and it may cause problem if the oil reaches back to the capillary tube. So, that's why a Refrigerator should not be layed down flat or upside down and it should be left unplugged for an hour or two to let the oil come back to the compressor, this is where it belongs. As for the refrigerant, I don't think it has something to do with it, because it will always circulate through the whole refrigerator circuit during the normal operation.

This is merely what my mind says. Hope others will agree with me.

Not so smart solved a mystery I thought about for more than 50 years.

When visiting some folks they had their fridge standing upside down. They were instructed to do so by someone (manufacturer?) . then had to have it standing right side up for a week and restart.

On the next visit the fridge was working fine.

(note it was a paraffin model - don't try this at home)

Their fridge was/is an "absorption" unit... It has no compressor or lube oil in its system... The refrigerant is, as I recall, ammonia, and it is standard practice to up-end the unit for a short period if it stops working... I have personally done this many times with absorption units of several different makes and types, and Yes! I do believe this is a manufacturers instruction for these old units... I guess this dates me ;-)

Was this an adsorption type of a refrigerator?

Odd I have hauled refrigerators, freezers, window air conditioners, heat pump units in every position but up and never had startup issues.

Typically what little oil gets into the lines is pushed right back around to the pump as the pressures build up in the first few seconds of operation. Or that has always been my theory being that if you ever look at most refrigeration system layouts not all of them have everything routed nice and neat with any form of intentional gravity flow assistance to the working media.

How do you think those big roof mounted AC units that are sometimes 30+ feet above the refrigerators and freezers in your local grocery store deal with oil in their systems when the compressor is at the top and the rest of the system is some distance below it?

Re: Odd I have hauled refrigerators, freezers, window air conditioners, heat pump units in every position but up and never had startup issues.

I don't think it's startup issues so much as longevity issues...

On a slightly different note, I was advised to always tighten shipping bolts that hold the compressor so that it would not move on the spring / rubber mounting--then loosen those bolts before startup again.

you posted "How do you think those big roof mounted AC units that are sometimes 30+ feet above the refrigerators and freezers in your local grocery store deal with oil in their systems when the compressor is at the top and the rest of the system is some distance below it?"

Engineers a lot smarter than me carefully design and layout the piping with the special fittings and tanks in the system to control and direct the oil flow in the system to prevent problems with oil in the wrong place. Like in the compressor suction line.

It is called a "P trap" for every ten feet of vertical pipe starting at the bottom, on the suction line. When they fill with oil the velocity increases and the oil is pulled beck to the compressor. Some larger units will use and oil separator also.

That is one of several schemes designed for oil control and return. Sometimes the traps have a drain to return oil to a separate oil sump tank next to the compressor, somtimes the oil separator yoou mention is used.

I used to work as an engineer for a fridge manufacturer. No, it won't hurt. As you've been told, stand it up for 24 hours before starting. Let the oil and refrigerant settle down.

I saw ones in the lab that were tipped over on the backs, allowed to lay that way for long periods, tipped back up and started immediately; a lot of them worked okay, but some did fail quickly. The 24 hour wait is just good insurance.

Normally refrigerators are kept upright for ease of shipping as the footprint is smaller compared to when it is laid down horizontally. The problem of laying it on its side is the oil in the compressor would drain out into the suction tube and find its way to the coil in the freezer compartment. Oil in the coil would affect the performance of the refrigerator and loss of oil from the compressor would cause it to seize.

Modern day refrigerator compressors and its system are better designed to minimize this, even a slight tilt of up to 5 deg should be of great help to mitigate it.

I can't believe some people respond to something they know nothing about. It is free advice though. A typical refrigerator compressor works much like a 2 stroke engine. It has reed valves. The case which has oil in it can leak right into the cylinder if the unit is laid on it's side. You really don't want to do that. Compressors are vapor pumps, they don't compress liquids! A few people mentioned refrigerant. Refrigerant will migrate to the coldest area in the system, ALWAYS. If you have a high quality unit it might have a refrigerant heater in the crankcase. If it does you can plug the machine in AFTER making sure you have the selector switch to the OFF position. You don't want it to run, just supply power to the heater for a few hours to chase any refrigerant out. You can also just put a heat source next to the compressor for a while and achieve the same thing. Someone mentioned a 24 hour rule, interesting. They must have knowledge of how much oil is in the cylinder and where the piston is in it's stroke. I have no idea where it is. The bottom line is this. If you filled the cylinder with oil and have a slug of oil when you start it the compressor is gone. The advice to use the proper dolly is your best choice. Anything else is a gamble with potential for complete compressor failure.

Hey, I read it some place on the internet, so it must be true!

"The Internet is like a bathroom wall. Any one can post any thing whether it is true or not." (a mis-quote from an old Eric Zorn article)

This is free advice. It is up to the reader to use some degree of judgement whether to follow any of it. As you noted some is OK and some is hearsay or guesses. Hopefully the original poster (OP) will exercise good judgement as he sorts through the various replies.

I agree. It just makes me shake my head when someone gives advice that has a high probability of causing damage or wasting time. If you don't know something, why not just pass? I only offer my 2 cents on things I'm certain of or I'll clearly state what parts are less than certain. But as you said, it is free, so buyer beware!

My old Grandpa knew his stuff on a lot of things mechanical. I guess it boils down to, do you want to move it upright, and know it's going to be fine. Or do you want to lay it down, wait 24 hours, and be pretty sure it will be fine.

I have spent the last thee decades with refrigeration. I am yet see a crankcase heater on a domestic one, unless it was after market.

The vending machine companies use them where their unit might be outside and exposed to low ambient temperature. Commercial systems should all ways have them, it not than are taking a great risk of an oil wash out, or refrigerant slugging.

If a refrigerator is left off, doors open and unplugged in a house for 24 hrs, there is no warm or cold spot the whole system will be one constant, super saturated vapour.

You are correct about the compressor design for domestics, but they are splash lubricated and also rely on some return oil. There is not a whole lot of oil in them.

Lying one on its side for a short period of time will not allow what little oil at the level of the intake reed vale, to migrate into the cylinder.

The 24 hour rule is to allow a refrigerator to acclimatize to the ambient temperature and allow what little oil that may be in the cylinder to drain via the piston.

The other reason is that if you transport a refrigerator with the compressor suction side down, the oil will leave the compressor and fill up the suction line and leaves you with a dry start. Bad news.

I have transported many a refrigerator, incubator, chilling cabinet, environmental chamber over the years, not to mention, many refrigerators for friends and family.

I have not lost one yet.

I agree that laying a fridge on its side will not necessarily damage it, and that you do need to stand it upright for a good while before running it, but the most important issue is.

If possible do not lay the fridge on its side if it can be avoided and be extra careful when transporting it, the structural design of a refrigerator is to be upright not sideways, it could bend or be affected. This does not mean that you cannot do it for a short transport of say a couple of miles and maybe an hour, if it is more then the advisable thing is to store it and transport it right side up

You mention structural design, and I have to agree. A lot of new appliances are constructed with extremely thin sheet metal. Laying them on their side is an invitation for dings and dents as well as more serious structural problems.

I want to call more attention to the Fredski makes in #18--as others point out, keeping the oil in the right place, or getting it back to the right places is important to the life of the compressor.

Equally or more important is avoiding plugging the compressor by having a liquified slug of refrigerant in the compressor. That's why things like heat pumps (which have the compressor installed outdoors) have a crankcase heater.

I suspect refrigerators don't (have a crankcase heater), and thus, especially if they've been exposed to cold, you give them time to come up to room temperature before starting them.

(I'm calling more attention to this to help me remember--I didn't even think about slugging the compressor when I first saw the question, yet I know better based on my experience with heat pumps.)

Most heat pumps do in fact have crankcase heaters. All of them prevent slugging of refrigerant and or oil by use of an accumulator. Different concept.

Thanks for the correction / clarification. I presume running the crankcase heater is necessary to help prevent slugging? (IIRC, that's what my owner's manual told me--Bryant unit, 30 years ago.)

This applies to ALL refrigeration circuits. A little fridge or a big building. Refrigerant has a high affinity for refrigeration oil. Most systems have around 5% of oil in circulation at anytime of compressor operation so you have oil in the condenser, lines, evap, etc. If the case of the compressor becomes colder than the rest of the system refrigerant will migrate there. Once the compressor starts it can easily draw in a slug of liquid refrigerant/oil. You grenade the compressor before you can turn it off. By having a heater in the case you prevent this (although you can still slug the compressor under different operating conditions with refrigerant). With a larger system the heater will drop offline at the same time the compressor is energized. It's main use is as an offline protector, to prevent refrigerant migration.

So the heater isn't important once a system has started. It goes to work once the compressor goes offline. I hope that helped.

If you lay it down the oil will migrate and can obstruct the cap tube( metering device). Not easily diagnosed or repaired. I know how to diagnose and repair and AI would still avoid the action you are contemplating. 134a and poe oil are not kind to anyone.

So how is having a temporary stall due to oil in the compressor cylinder any different that having a stall due to a power blink when the system is at full working pressure?

When the motor stalls it heats up very quickly until the automatic overload device trips. While that overload is tripped the heat from the stalled motor causes the refrigerant to expand and migrate, or boil off if its liquid, which also moves any oil out of the cylinder along with it. the stall and reset cycle continues until enough oil has been displaced or the system pressure drops back to a level that the compressor can then complete its full rotational cycle and gain speed. Back pressure stalling from various conditions is a common issue with small compressor motors, typical single phase power types, so they are designed with a weaker starting torque than running torque so that if trying to start under a high load condition over torque related damage or internal issues doesn't cause damage.

The larger three phase powered equipment is typically in a fixed stationary installation where the system is unlikely to ever be moved as a whole so start up stall issues are far less of a concern and are usually handled by start delay timers that allow the system to balance its internal pressures before restarting after a power drop event.

My window AC units spend their whole winter siting on either of their sides or its back and every summer I take them out of storage and put it in the window and turn them on a few minutes later without a single concern. Maybe with cheap low quality junk appliances its an issue but being I don't buy or own cheap low quality junk I tend to have even less concerns which is why I personally have no real concerns with how anything has been transported or stored.

tcmtech, your experience is obviously different than those of us in the business. HVAC Talk is full of posts discussing and asking for help with this situation. POE oil is famous for clotting in small systems and the cap tube in a residential refrigerator amounts to a cats whisker for a bore. Your window shakers are most likely r22 with ab oil which is a different animal. Some like to tempt fate, I don't.

Yes I know. The new refrigerants and oil related issues are a crooked repairman's best source of income.

Most of what I work with are the home AC units and occasional recharging of the older R-22 based commercial systems for a few private customers of mine. I don't work with the new stuff that much because I feel its far to often just overly complicated and over engineered junk that was installed to make the dealer and repair techs easy money.

I like the old systems that only need a top off once ever decade or so not ones that are supposed to be so much better but need some level of usually expensive service several times a year.

I am not the the typical AC service industries favorite person by any means. Mostly because I sell my parts at cost and not 1000+ % markups and I also tell my customers what they need and where and how to get around the industry regulation loopholes so they can get what they need themselves before I ever do any work which often includes leaving them with copy's of the EPA and any other rules and regulations so that they can personally see where and how the loopholes in the system can be legally used to their favor.

I am in it for the customers satisfaction not the greedy service industry's gains.

"So how is having a temporary stall due to oil in the compressor cylinder any different that having a stall due to a power blink when the system is at full working pressure?"

Interesting you should say that. In countries where Electrical Standards apply to such appliances, a common parameter is 'locked rotor current'. Another, winding temp rise during cycling of the overload protection - just for resistance to those 'blinks' and 'transportation variables'.

It's interesting that one Authority was cutting open sealed units, to mechanically lock the rotor, to measure the current - not just 'blinking' the supply. Carry over thinking from testing the belt driven predecessors.

Never hurts to just follow the manufacturers instructions. Here's what GE has to say about some of their models. Looks like everybody is right. I'm going to continue moving mine upright.

Most modern refrigerators don't have a piston, so you probably won't blow it, but it's better to be safe than sorry. I would hesitate to move one on its back if there are coolant coils back there. You don't want one to get cracked and leak away the freon.

All small domestic refrigerator, freezers are sill using piston compressors. All new AC is now scroll. They start at the1.5 ton range, two large for the average home refrigerators.

A lot of commercial refrigeration manufactures are now using packaged (multiple ) scrolls either on a rack or In self contained cases.

After that then you get into the screw and centrifugal compressors, mostly for A/C

The little one in the middle is the rotary compressor.

To follow up with some more information, the manufacturer who I used to work for does in fact ship refrigerators both on their backs and upright when they leave the factory. They use a computer program to calculate the maximum volume of units that can be shipped in a fixed volume within a shipping container or trailer. Units are placed both ways (on their backs and upright) in one shipment.

Therefore, the company I worked for determined that standing up these units for 24 hours was prudent to prevent damage. I saw during testing in the company labs that some units would indeed fail if started up immediately after being stood upright. Some did work, some didn't.

The 24 hour policy is just good insurance.

Thanks everyone on the replys. Many mixed replies. I contacted Whirlpool. They reccomended leave it unpluged up to 12 hr. depending on how long it was layed down, Thanks everyone.

Don

By the end of all 49 posts, the OP would have picked up a fair knowledge of Refrigeration, with a little bit of theory he could apply for a licence too!

I would think that moving a refrigerator in the back of a truck over bumpy roads would do more damage. Hitting bumps and potholes would send shock through the compressor, mounts, fittings, etc, resulting in loose joints, cracked fittings or compressor failure.

Only if you drive fast and take the back roads.