Water Additives to Decrease Conductivity.

Heat. In other words, distill it and remove all those pesky little ions that make it conductive in the first place.

I'm not aware of any additive that would reduce conductivity.

But, then again, I not aware of much anyway.

Yes, I'm aware of the distillation. However, My curiosity falls between some guidelines I have not listed. For example, my real world conditions are as follows: Max 120°F Fluid Temp. The Fluid is not only water but an emulsion, of lets say 95% water, and 5% oil, which is why it is so conductive. I am trying to come up with a possible chemical which could be safely added to the emulsion to lower the conductivity. I'm no Chemist... Almost didn't make it through Chem101 way back when. Just a lowly Mechanical Engineer dabbling with chemicals. If anyone has ever known of something that actually attaches itself safely to all the pesky little ions to neutralize the electrical conductivity i would surly love to know. Thank you! -R

Oil (well most oil) is itself fairly non-conductive, I think. So you're back to removing the wee little conductive mineral bits suspended in your fluid.

Offhand the only even vague suggestions might be to run the fluid through a demineralizer resin bed - but I'm not sure what the oil would do to it or vice versa. As far as an additive, maybe there's some kind of flocculant that would work? Seems unlikely, but maybe worth looking into if desperation sets in.

Removing all the water and the dissolved substances that go with it will make the problem go away. So, consider changing the fluid for a non-aqueous one.

Not sure what to add to it, but with water you can take stuff out by distilling it.

Actually no idea at all but what will the effect be if a flocculant like alum is added.

Flocculants treat turbidity, not conductivity. It's those ions again.

They can't be flocculated.

Good thoughts. I'm not sure about flocculant's, I'll read up on them, but from my basic understanding, would that cause particle contamination? The fluid it also used as a wear lubricant, and would need to be kept clean as to not damage the equipment. This is just an idea, as I have never seen anything like it on the market, in fact, I'm not sure if it's even remotely possible. The purpose of trying to find a solution to the conductivity is to reduce bi-metallic corrosion in the system using the oil-water emulsion. Hmm.... I think I need to find a good chemist. Thanks everyone, Keep the ideas flowing! -R

Oh, and by the way, if you do come up with a non-conductive fluid, you'll need to use corrosion resistant steel or plastics for the plumbing.

Thats just the problem. There is no getting around using the current materials (Steel & Brass). Currently the conductivity of the fluid is very high causing extremely aggressive bi-metallic corrosion to occur. Changing the fluid, or the components is not an option at the moment (although I have suggested switching to a water glycol fluid instead of the emulsion). It just seems like there must be something that can be added to the emulsion to attach itself to all the ions, leaving them non-conductive, much like an antioxidant works to attach itself to free radicals in the body. Antioxidants are stable even after giving their charge to the Free radical (ion). I'm just sure there is a way out there somewhere, somehow...

Great thoughts, and great input, Thank you. They have done all they can to electrically isolate, earth ground, etc. The zinc anode has been brought up a few times, but would cause too much increased particle contamination. Active protection sounds very interesting, and has not been brought up, or thought about yet at all. I'll have to look into this, just off the top of my head i'm going to say it would either eliminate the problem, or make it much much worse... but definitely worth a second look. Thats why I love this place (CR4), people bring ideas and thoughts to the table that may be completely overlooked otherwise. Thanks! -R Don't stop bringing ideas to the table, hopefully this is an interesting subject for a few of you. I know in the hydraulics world people just give you a funny look when you mention galvanic reaction, or electrolysis. These problems don't happen when oil is used, but I'm seeing more and more water based fluid being used in industry, mostly to be "green" even though it's an engineering disaster.

ChaoticIntellect is putting you on the right track !! BUT !!!

(1) will need a lot more information to determine if components can be isolated?

(2) due to inability to control voltages in a sacrificial environment this is probably out!

(3) An ICP System is probably the way to go [will need a LOT more information] and more than likely a monitored installation with remote adjustment features as an integral part!

Big Question becomes? Can you live with distilled water or are you prepared to spend some serious money to Stop The Corrosion?

Go to NACE.ORG , Look under resources, then try (online community) keeping in mind you may have to join to have access to all the articles, Look at (NACE Resource Center) and try Universities with Corrosion Related Courses! A lot is being done to obtain longevity of medical machinery subject to corrosive environments caused by drugs infused that promote corrosion cell formation!

You've got some homework to do, but at least NACE deals in Facts!!

I wonder if anyone looked at the link?

I did look at the link. I wonder what they use? Probably basic glycol mix of some sort. My application requires literally thousands of gallons of fluid. So adding a positively charged ionic fluid to neutralize the existing ions is not a viable thought? I was on the antioxidant/free radical wavelength. I'm just sure there is some way to do this on a industrial scale (or at least I can wish).

Mineral Oil Cooling I don't know why anyone would ever want to do this.

pretty cool though...

I gotcha. That could get pricey. I doubt they would want to give you the secret ingredient.

There are also these, or similar. Not an endorsement of this particular company.

http://www.reskem.com/pages/demineralizers-deionizers.php

Would a demineralised water plant remove the ions? we use demin in large quantities & produce the water on site at low cost.

Not add. Remove. Remove the ions. Any number of techniques already exist, the applicability of which varies with the quantities and temperatures to be handled.

Since you are using it in what seems to be a machining process, there will be constant addition of conductive materials to your fluid.

For EDM, the purity of water was the critical aspect. More pure = less conductive.

If this is a machining application, then maybe the component surfaces could be coated (with a removable treatment) so that only surfaces that are cut or worked become exposed. If this was an insulating material it may also help reduce what you perceive to be galvanic attack.

The other option may be to change the pH to a point where such attack does not happen or at least is reduced. (For instance, steel inside concrete (high pH) is protected from corrosion by the high pH.)

Actually the fluid is a working fluid in a hydraulic system. It runs at relatively low pressures ~600psi. Changing the fluid is not open for discussion at the moment (although talks are in place). The problem is that all industrial hydraulic pumps and components use cast iron, steel and brass as the main components. I'm sure you are all aware that those materials are a bad combo while submerged in an electrolyte solution. The reason for using a 5% oil in 95% water emulsion was directly related to fire resistance. Any bad ground or slight bleed of any of the DC controls systems causes an electrolysis process to begin, causing catastrophic failure of all components in the system. Without a costly fluid/equipment replacement, I was attempting to identify a possible chemical fix for this situation to lower the conductivity, thus resulting in a less corrosive environment.

Yet another link that may help.

http://elysator.com/en/index.php?s=elysator

Nothing. You should be removing dissolved material instead.

I am confused by your question, but then I get confused easily. Are you trying to add something to the water to increase electrical resistance (that is reduce its conductivity). There is nothing you can add but if you remove the pesky ions with distillation, reverse osmosis, or ion exchange (de-ionizer) you can achieve such goal.

If the objective is to prevent galvanic corrosion as referred by Moronicbumble's good answer you can follow his advice. Or alternatively polyphosphate (PP) can be added to the water. It will create a monofilm on the piping and prevent corrosion. The PP will have to be added constantly with a metering pump and once you start you must continue the process as part of the operation. The major drawback in using it part time is that the piping will become partially coated. Where the PP does not protect more corrosion can occur at such points.

Your question does not state how much water is used or provide details of chemistry of the water. The problem should be made a little clearer.

The application uses literally thousands of gallons of fluid, it is a large hydraulic power unit. I have identified bi-metallic corrosion, and possibly electrolysis as a series issue with the system. Talk are in place to try and get the fluid changed... but that's playing politics, as this same system is used all over the world in mass scale. The main question is whether something could be formulated that could be added to a 5% oil in 95% water fluid to lower the electrical conductivity, therefore the corrosion. The politics are so vast and all encompassing with this particular company that trying to change components, or fluid is met with an enormous resistance. I knew that nothing was on the market when I asked the question, but if it were even remotely possible from a chemical standpoint (I'm not a chemical guy, I'm a Hydraulics/Mechanical/Electrical guy) to add a compound to the fluid to lower the conductivity of the fluid, it would help the problem until the politics can be hashed out to get this stuff changed to a glycol based fluid. I basically wanted to get the gears turning so to speak, and see if anyone had any ideas.

laundry soap. I cannot remember what kind / type however. as in previous replies, the water must be de oxygenated. and de ionized for best results.

IMHO: Changing to a non-flammable hydraulic fluid is the only realistic option.

Agreed, However, there is much resistance from this companies corporate headquarters.

So the question becomes, how to decrease this resistance?

LOL... yes exactly. However, that's not anything I can help with, as I have done all I can do by presenting the facts.

If the added Oil you are using is, by itself, non conductive, then you might get distilled water, as pure as possible from any contaminant 'peski' ions (as mentioned all along), and use it with the oil! That might work for you.

If the oil is electrically conductive, then you are limited on how much you can reduce the conductivity of your mix unless you change the OIL type! { Transformer oil is very good insulator. Mixed with water it becomes less insulating. BUT if distilled water is used, you might get somewhere! Try it??

Distilled or deionized water.

sorry to inform you but your system is not designed to maintain a low conductivity solution. The pharmaceutical and electronics industry to name just two spend lots and lots of money in producing and maintaining low conductivity water. As has been mentioned in many previous posts there is no magic solution to add so as to reduce the conductivity. Even if you add distilled water it will eventually increase in conductivity due to the nature of the tubing.

you could also use premium coolant or DCA, its coolant additive for diesel engine.

I join the Guest writing before me. With emphasis: there is NO WAY to do, what you try. At least not successfully.

Oil / water mixture is the worst of both world. And it is insane to try to devise something on the quick, so to speak, when oil companies have spent decades and fortunes to develop various products. With warranties. This is reinventing the wheel in its full glory.

It's not reinventing, if it's obviously not been invented in the first place... I am not a chemical guru by any means, heck, I barely passed college chemistry. I'm a Mechanical/Electrical guy with some curiosities with this subject. I knew it was a long-shot, cause no one has ever done it (successfully) but... On the off chance that something could be added to neutralize the ions in the emulsion, I figured I would at least pose the question. If it's absolutely impossible, that's all I wanted to know. If there is even a slight chance that something could be developed, it would be worth pursuing. My customer that has this problem is no small customer, they loose literally millions of dollars worth of equipment every year due to this problem, and nothing has been done to fix the problem for the last 20 years. Even if they were to try and develop some chemical agent themselves at a 10 million dollar expense, they would be way ahead financially. Remember, the world WAS flat and was the center of the universe at one point ;) Cheers!

You mean the world is not flat?????????

Bubble a gas like helium or argon through continuously.

. .

Foaming agents and a gas

. .

Water soluble oil (Varieties of these are commonly used cutting fluid in machining, though i am uncertain which might be best)

Well...if you want to increase the electrical resistance of tap water, sulfate based dish detergent, sugar and alcohol all seem to work.

Funny, we actually had an electrolyte lab experimenting on just this thing today. Distilled, deionized water of course had no conductivity. Sugar effectively killed the tiny bit of conductivity of distilled water and increased the resistance quite a bit in tap water. Dish detergent and isopropyl alcohol did as well. So...maybe look at those?

Another option would be to surface coat the metal parts at the next re-build. Passivating the steel parts will effectively neutralise their effects in the galvanic process. The cast parts will need some kind of electrically isolating coating.

Can an additive coat the surfaces, something like Slik 50 is meant to do in an engine or gearbox?

The brass on steel wear components cannot be coated....

Maybe not, but perhaps?

http://www.filtersfast.com/Pentek-PCF1-MB-deionization-filter.asp

Very easy. Add a polishing filter such as the one contained withing preceding link.

One word of caution, the polishing filter uses a mixed bed (cation & anion) media to remove conductive ions. As the ions are removed, the fluid may become more agressive toward metalic components in your piping.

This polishing filter fits in a standard 10" filter housing.

I am currently using the same polishing filter on a process tool at my factory to control the resistance of the cooling water.

Regards,

Paul

Simple just add salt in it, Nacl is ionic bonded, this will make your water more resistant to electric current.

Or simply just reverse water softening process.

Unless I'm really out of it today, salt increases the conductivity of water!

So the previous post is wrong. I'd like to mark it wrong, but my only choice is to mark it off-topic which I don't plan to do. It is on topic, it is just wrong. I wish this site gave us more possibilities for rating posts, at least a "wrong answer" option.

I thought of another one the other day--oh, maybe just a "I don't agree" choice. IMHO, too many people mark something off-topic when they disagree. I'd rather see it marked somehow I disagree, or minority opinion, or something like that. (Of course, with the "I disagree" option I'm not sure what standard would exist. I guess I should ask for an "I agree" option as well, and then ask that a count be displayed showing the count of agrees and disagrees.

So, now I've gone off-topic, but as is sometimes the case, I won't mark it OT (because, among other reasons, I agree with the comments I made here, and I'd like to see the thought (of adding more ratings) propagate.

Well, i guess you have to give me a concrete explanation why is it wrong "salt increases the conductivity of water "by your assertion in contrary to mine, simple. I might as well be educated by you. Its a pleasure by the way.

Oh, sorry my bad

http://www.lenntech.com/applications/ultrapure/conductivity/water-conductivity.htm

No way! Adding salt will most definitely increase the conductivity of the water. You can believe me because I am right and have been doing this for a long time or you can get a conductivity meter, a gallon of distilled water, some salt and conduct your own experiment.

Yeah, i agree with you and as a matter of fact i posted a link on my previous post to prove that i was wrong. I was thinking about separating Na and Cl that would probably increase current resistance. Oh well, its not case. May be perhaps its effect is more influenced with the free valence shell or its electronegativity of the additive compound. To think of that, if insulators has a liquid version and could have a good diffusion to water, those materials are the best. And also the materials in the group 4 in the table of elements have a liquid version that would be best. GROUP IV- Germanium, silicon etc. Hey, why dont the OP try adding up silicon grease ? It might work.

I'm enough of an engineer to know when I'm out of my league and when other professionals are needed. My very limited exposure to corrosion revealed that (unwanted) trace levels of water in oil pipelines causes aggressive pitting corrosion in combination with bacteria. I was astounded to discover that bacteria could live in that environment.

If I were approaching the stated problem with my scarcely better knowledge of chemistry than yours, I'd be interviewing consulting corrosion engineers to find who can best provide an engineered analysis of the existing corrosion problem and an overview of commercial solutions. I'm sufficiently aware of my limitations and I wouldn't want to spend any budget attacking what my chem 101 background thinks is the problem is when it might be something entirely different.

If the statement, "they loose literally millions of dollars worth of equipment every year due to this problem" is really true, then a commercial solution at 5 or even 6 figures would have an ROI or payback in months and would be snapped up by any management that answers to a board or shareholders. The consulting cost to get on the right path is pocket change compared to the stated magnitude (Millions of dollars of loss annually)

In answer to the original question about chemical additives, water treatment firms like Nalco stay in business selling tank car loads of water treatment chemicals. But I'm in no position to know whether those chemicals are a solution or not.

That doesn't mean that chemical additives are not a solution to your problem, but you need a professional assessment of the exact cause(s) and advice on solutions from an experienced professional if it's a real problem of the magnitude posed.

That is more expensive advice/suggestion you got there, given the knowledge in engineering and a good background of the basics, any problems right there can be solved in a very convenient and cheaper way.

I often got low assessment/impression sometimes on consulting firms and assessors, sometimes its way to think, your knowledge are better than the one that assess it, only that you are forced to do so, in order to comply with standards or whatever.

As long as there are no superstitions on the way your making solutions to any problem and no life is put onto risk, why not improvise, research, innovate it yourself. I mean who holds you doing so?

You're the only one who knows who you are. Why not put trust onto yourself, when you think you can.

Many companies will simply not allow their staff to design solutions (exactly that in this case) as there is too much risk involved.

They prefer to send that risk to another, more expert, company which specialises in that particular field. That way any major problem can be claimed against someone else. A significant amount of extra expenditure can be made, but seen to be worthwhile.

yes, I am currently engaged with a corrosion specialist, however this is more of a formality, when dealing with the politics. My purpose for starting this thread, was to get a conversation started, to see if i could flush out any interesting ideas, or experiences from all of you folk, which has brought some new lines of thinking to the table. IMHO this is that CR4 does best, gets people talking, sharing ideas, and in some cases CR4 can produce some interesting results, good or bad, they are still interesting. -R

For you to read, this might be your solution.

http://www.silicon-silicone.com/silicone-oil.html