Previous in Forum: Hi-Pot Testing   Next in Forum: Welding on an Aluminum Hydraulic Tank
Close
Close
Close
18 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Participant

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3

Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/29/2011 9:24 AM

If a container weighing 1 tonne was jettisoned from an aircraft 500 metres above ground based on various locations around the world with an average height of 50 metres above sea level; how much liquid Helium (Litres and Kg) would be required to inflate an attached balloon and prevent the container from hitting the ground?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15600
Good Answers: 981
#1

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/29/2011 9:42 AM

You're so funny. Liquid helium is heavier than air. So you will not have any buoyant lifting capability at all with liquid helium.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/29/2011 10:34 AM

I take it, that if you have a "bottle" of liquid helium and opened the valve, the liquid would convert to its gaseous state, which in turn would inflate the balloon.

So, how much liquid would be required to give sufficient gas in order to solve the problem?

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 647
#3

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/29/2011 12:23 PM

Just taking a quick stab here:

The density difference between air and helium gas is roughly 1 Kg per cubic meter (closer to 1.05 Kg per cubic meter) ; so to displace a weight (mass) of 1 tonne (1000 Kg) you'd need roughly 1 tonne (1000 Kg) of helium gas.

In liquid form helium has a density of 145 grams per liter, so to get 1 tonne of liquid helium you'd need about 7000 liters.

/If I did my math right.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/29/2011 4:51 PM

Ummm - well your looking to displace a 'ton of air' (at STP ~ 1230g/m3 ) with the volume of helium @ 178.6g/m3 (at STP)

Even-so there is a fair bit of heat to find, to get the liquid to gas at STP, before impact.

Might be a better idea to invest in a parachute as thermal grenades tend to ruin balloons

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 647
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/29/2011 8:45 PM

The heat of vaporization is very low. Also, helium has a negative Joule-Thomson coefficient at normal ambient temperatures, meaning it heats up when allowed to freely expand. I'd have to drag out my old Physics books to calculate the amount of energy needed, but I'm thinking it wouldn't be an outrageous amount.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15600
Good Answers: 981
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/30/2011 10:11 AM

The latent heat of vaporization for helium is very low but don't forget that this is just the energy required to go from liquid to gas at the same temperature. In this scenario one must get the helium gas warmed to ambient temperature or it will not displace enough of a volume of air to create the 1 tonne of bouyancy. So you must also include the specific heat required to get helium to warm the approximately 300° C temperature increase. Yes, the atypical negative Joule-Thomson coefficient will induce some self heating as the helium expands but this will still require some considerable amount of heat to get this balloon inflated so that the balloon and payload can be pushed out of a cargo door of an airplane.

Speaking of the airplane, I suspect that not even the Airbus Beluga will be large enough to carry an inflated balloon like this that can carry a ton aloft.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#11
In reply to #9

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/30/2011 4:49 PM

Yeah - OP would want one a lot shorter than that

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/30/2011 4:48 PM

True, and seeing it's around 178 kg per 1000 m3 - plus a bit more to carry the balloon, harness, etc - ostensibly, not much to heat. However, it's being chucked out at 450 feet AGL, so there's not much time to get all the He in the envelope up to ambient.

I imagine if it wasn't quite quick, the payload descent velocity would - if not tear the balloon apart - tend to compress the He.

Hence the thermal grenade comment.

And I think you'd need a radiant source, there being no time for conduction or convection - (though I haven't checked the conductivity, or even time to impact)

Another thing is, I think heat - or over-heating - would be a way of achieving greater volume to curb the descent, but avoid it 'not landing' and then disappearing to the stratosphere.

I suppose you could do a 'drag-out deployment (like with chutes). I imagine the drag of the deflated balloon, would have the payload out the back, well before meaningful inflation took place.

And obviously the balloon is going to be quite long for the volume required, so that in turn 'shortens' the distance to impact - so time to inflate.

So I hope the above explains, more or less, my thought train, behind original comment.

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Don't Know What Made The Old Title Attractive... Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - 60 Year Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Yellowstone Valley, in Big Sky Country
Posts: 7425
Good Answers: 295
#4

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/29/2011 12:31 PM

How much have you figured out already?

Without this balloon, how much time elapses until the one tonne impacts the ground?

Without this balloon, what is the velocity of the one tonne at impact?

And, why would you take it the He changes phase? We do not know the temperature; is it part of the homework question you have not shared with us?

__________________
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#6

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/29/2011 7:20 PM

"based on various locations around the world with an average height of 50 metres above sea level;"

I don't know how much He you'll need, but let's just hope none of those "average" locations around the world is over 501 meters above sea level.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#17
In reply to #6

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

04/04/2011 4:41 AM

... to be fair to the OP: "... 500 metres above ground ...".

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Australia - Member - Torn and breading Engineering Fields - Nanoengineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Magnetic Island, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3721
Good Answers: 74
#7

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/29/2011 8:09 PM

Once you get your required information here in CR4 you will ask the next question.

"How large will the balloon have to be and who builds these?"

I once saw what it took to lift one person. I need not formulas I just close my eyes and imagine 100 people being lifted, just lifted! It would be bloody huge!

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2009/06/the-physics-of-up-how-many-balloons-would-it-really-take-to-lift-a-house.html

Hope all goes well, Ky.

__________________
The Twain Has Met
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4362
Good Answers: 179
#12

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/30/2011 6:55 PM

Ahhhh nothing like watching a LAPES extraction outta the rear of a C-130 Herky Bird! But with Helium-filled balloon? Nadda!

As 34point suggested, pull the pins on those grenades, jump out and kiss your arse bye bye! LOL

[LAPES = Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System, for those not in the know....]. I'm sure there may be a U-Tube video showing how a palletized M-2 Bradley IFV is dispatched from the Herky! Just don't stand in the way of that puppy!

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru
Canada - Member - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: GTA Canada
Posts: 722
Good Answers: 23
#13

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/30/2011 10:14 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jYqSUl0Vn0 - Way too cool - just watch - Loupy

__________________
Have a Happy! ;-)
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: in optimism
Posts: 4050
Good Answers: 130
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/30/2011 10:55 PM

Well actually this is LAPES

I think you want more altitude as you can see in this one there is 'inflation' time involved.

__________________
There is no sin except stupidity. (Oscar Wilde, Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900))
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3
#16
In reply to #14

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

04/02/2011 6:06 AM

Thank you, for all your advice.

My nephew saw a program on TV, where someone drove a car out the rear of a plane, a balloon inflated, and he continued when he landed.

I said it was Hollywood, he said it wasn't, I could not explain why (not that clever).

So once again, thank you all.

Ian.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4362
Good Answers: 179
#15

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

03/31/2011 8:34 AM

34Point is absolutely correct. LAPES is the delivery of oversized cargo (and Mechanized equipment) at very low AGL to US Army 82nd Airborne Division troops on an unimproved or "prepped" Drop Zone (DZ....which is not to be confused with LZ), where it is not possible for USAF transports to land and unload their cargo, or pick up troops. The cargo or vehicle is wrapped in a high crush-resistant cardboard pallet system that is securely wrapped with cargo ratcheting straps. It's surprisingly resilient to damage and impact shock.

What Loupy posted was the USA's LVAD (Low Velocity Air-Dropped) delivery system of heavy cargo (and Mech. Equipment). this system also utilizes palletization + multiple cargo chutes.

The Russian Army's Vozdushno-Desantnye Voiska (VDV) employ a system quite similar to the US Army's LVAD, but with a slight twist which works well. Instead of a palletized system for shock absorbence they utilize a large air-inflatable rubber bladder strapped to the underside of the cargo or Mechanized Vehicle. This delivery system also utilizes multiple cargo chutes and a velocity rocket retarding system that features a ground proximity sensor which fires off when the cargo is very close above the ground. this rocket is attached to the main chute suspender straps above the cargo. It's quite an effective system to reduce the impact shock of the landing onto a hard ground surface. Personally, I think it's a very kewl system...even ingenious, as long as the retro rocket fires!

RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!!!!

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#18

Re: Helium balloons and 1 tonne.

04/12/2024 9:36 AM

That depends upon how fast the <...aircraft...> is going, which has been withheld, as has whether it is in a climb, level flight, or a dive.

It also depends upon the size and elasticity of the <...balloon...> into which the <...liquid helium...> were jettisoned and the speed at which the <...balloon...> were filled, which have been withheld.

It also depends upon the ambient temperature and the thermal conductivity and thickness of the material forming the <...balloon...>, which has also been withheld.

It depends upon the cloud cover and the local rain or snow precipitation, which have also been withheld.

What also needs to be withheld is any invitation to other CR4 readers try it out to obtain the time that it takes by experiment.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 18 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

34point5 (4); CaptMoosie (2); Doorman (1); JohnDG (1); ky (1); Loupy (1); lyn (1); PWSlack (1); redfred (2); Squeakybrain (2); Usbport (2)

Previous in Forum: Hi-Pot Testing   Next in Forum: Welding on an Aluminum Hydraulic Tank

Advertisement