Bad Gasoline?

Got a dude up the road who specializes in small engine repairs - he's lovin' life right now....Ethanol adders are killing rings & seals in carbs, and there are issues with degradation to the point of vaccum issues (maybe why you can't keep them running?)

Anyways he's doing good for a country boy...lot's of new mowers where there should be no issues being 1,2 yrs old & needing TLC on the fuel systems...

Recently I went out & bought an Elec. Blower & a small Elec. tiller - like them both

You make it thru all those tragic storms OK?

It's frustrating. The manufacturers are still making machines that are designed to run on gasoline, not alcohol.

I wonder if your neighbor is doing retrofits to make them more alcohol friendly, or just replacing seals, etc. that are going to be toast again in a year or two. I just fixed a tiller for a friend of mine.........the rubber fuel line had practically liquefied, it was just mush.

The big tornado that went through Sanford and into Raleigh passed within about 3 miles of my house.............scary. I'm the only one with a basement around here, so I had a bunch of neighbors over here waiting it out. We lost power for about 24 hours, but otherwise, fine. Mother nature can be downright nasty when she wants to be.

Glad to hear you came out OK there....

Joe was telling me a couple of weeks ago he's seen some fuel tanks with a mix ratio he estimates up to 30-40% alcohol...he's guessing that there is settlement between the 2 & when they refill their containers, they do it before they're empty...

That makes sense.............I think.

If that's the case, I would think the same thing would happen, on a larger scale, within the holding tanks at the station.

Good Morning kramarat and CUTiger,

I have not had any problems with my zero turn, chain saw, chipper, or generator. Maybe I have just been lucky.

I run 10% blend of regular unleaded.

The only piece of equipment I have had trouble with is my Toro Weed Wacker that is 8 years old. I suspect the issue is a bad carb based on the symptoms.

The only thing I do to my gas is add Stabil.

One other item, when I am done using a given piece of equipment, I shut off the fuel line and run out the gas including applying the choke as it sputters out. Is this practice good or bad? I don't know but it has worked for me over the years.

I go through roughly 60 gallons of gas between spring and fall.

Again, maybe I am just lucky - (as I knock on wood)

Just my 2 cents!

kramarat - glad to hear you survived the storms.

Hi KJK - sounds like you're doing what my guy told me to start doing - run the fuel out after each use & hit the shut-off switch

All I know is his lot is full of late model gear that don't run, and he's fixing fuel issues 90% of the time..

Stabil is what I use in my cans also - don't know if it helps, but it sure makes a difference on my outboards on the boat - those Merc's do not like Ethanol at all..

Down at the coast some of us guys keep a list of stations with E-Free fuel...there are a few & I don't mind paying a little more for fuel to fish & not worry

Good answer and very good reccommendations. I hope all follow your advice from now on.

I do the same and now I do not store them in the attic as rubbers and poly lines get killed.

Regards;

Nadeem

We abuse Echo brand power tools where I work. Our service guy says to ALWAYS use premium gas and genuine Echo brand oil. _{(OK, so I don't actually use the tools)} We never run them out of gas, just shut em off and put em away.

I run my personal gas tools dry prior to storage, since I use some of them less than once a year.

Kram, glad to see that you made out okay and that the twisters missed ya! One of the main reasons why I am not moving southerly...the twisters and 'canes! I think I'll put up with our snow blizzrds instead!!! hehehehe!!!!

Hey, I wonder if that White Lightning will run the equipment instead of regular?? ***GRINZ***

(hey, has anyone else been experiencng problem with the "Emotioncons" lately? I try to inject them into my posting and get NADDA usually!!!! Sometimes I get lucky and snag one!)

BEERS & CHEERS!!!!!!

So, Kramarat, what do you actually want?

Cheaper gas or cheaper food.

By the way, you can't have both.

How it is Govt.'s fault? (I am not Government lover. I have my issues and that si another story)

Govt is doing all she can do to make our lives as good as possible and no one ever would like any govt. No matter whose govt. is that.

Yes, we want quality gas and if we have to pay more, so what. If they close down all the refineries and chemcial plants then I will be out of work and when I get unemployment then you all would scream that I am living on yoru taxes. (By the way I am chemcial engineer and make my living working for these plants and engineering design firms.)

So, calm down and see what can be done to protect the small engines? Ok, we will start buying premium gas and may be that will help to prolong the lives of our beloved tools.

Regards;

Nadeem

As an expert why would you suggest premium Gas?

& why would you say it's a choice between food & gas?

I am not suggesting premium gas. I repeated what one gentleman has said.

My opinion will be (right or wrong) to go back to buy the virgin gas for the small tools. That means shop around and where no alcohol added gas is available, buy for the tools. Other option would be to buy electric tools. Seems like every one is saying Alcohol is the culprit and what about all these newly found detergents? Would they have any effects, I do not kow and may be they affect the internals. I leave it to the experts.

One time and not very long ago, America was the cheapest in food and gas prices and now those days are gone and now we have to live what we got at hand and we still have the best in the world. We should all be thankful and should not complain too much.

Regards;

Nadeem

I'll quit complaining when the market provides what I want to buy. Right now, I am being forced to buy special gasoline that I neither want, support, or believe that there is any good reason for it, all because some politician wants to support corn farmers in his state.

We all need to keep complaining, LOUDLY, until the "powers that be" come to their senses and stop forcing us to waste corn while doing harm to our machinery. There is NO upside to this, unless you sell a few thousand bushels of corn at an artificially inflated price.

As someone in an earlier post pointed out, we are still burning the same amount of gasoline, it's just polluted with ethanol. The ethanol is not a substitute, just an additive.

When alcohol was first introduced with 10%V, every one very happy as the alcohol mixed gas was cheaper and environmentally it was acceptable. Now it is proposed to go to 15% and labs have given the green light. So where the corn would come from? Farmers are not growing as they were paid in kind for not to grow any thing. See very thing has two faces and same thing makes us happy and said depending upon the time.

What would you achieve complaining to the Govt? All the govts and espcially rogue governments ( By the way I shall never cally govt a rogue govt as it is not, for sure. I have seen the rogue govts else where that you would not imagine) want people to complain and they inreturn pacify you saying we hear you but actually do nothing. All the chnages that we want would not happen so why bother. This is another plot by the govts that people should complain and when govt does nothing , they, the people shut down and stop complaining and govts go home free. We complained about taxes, social security the falling education standards, govt spending, out of hand going defence budget and rising prices of every thing but nothing is happening.

I wonder how the poor people live and how they survive. God forbid I am not saying I am rich but I am careful to distinguish between wants and needs and this way I am content with kife.

If one of my tools breaks down, I go and buy a new one and that is that.

May be I became too philosophical or withdrawn.

Regards;

Nadeem

I was just curious if you had a professional opinion

I haven't had the option for gas without ethanol for years

I suppose I could buy Aviation or racing gas

Here's a electric weedeater that compares quite well to a gas powered one, double 0.080 line. Lighter than any gas powered... the cordless stuff sucks, too much trouble. Corded stuff just works

I do not have the professonal opinion as I do not run the analytical lab. I just work for the plants and participate in design of the refineries.

I am quite sure some gas stations are selling virgin gasoline (Unadultrated with alcohol) some where. You have find them.

Aviation or racing fuel would even be worse for yoru small tools.

Regards;

Nadeem

I'll attempt to stay calm. Fortunately, I'm not powering my brain with ethanol at the moment.

My OP wasn't looking for cheaper anything.

If you take the time to read through the posts here, and read the links they contain, you will start to reach the same conclusion that I am, that at best, ethanol accomplishes nothing, and at worst, it's damaging our engines.

It costs more to produce than it's sold for, which is supplemented with our tax dollars. Not to mention, I would imagine that it takes a lot of fossil fuel to grow the corn, produce the ethanol and transport it to where it needs to be.

Since this completely stupid, idiotic scheme has been mandated by our inept government....Who would you suggest I blame?

I believe that ethanol could well have a future as a viable fuel source. But, for the government to jam it down our throats and into our engines, (that aren't designed to burn alcohol), is complete bull****!

Ethanol should be produced from sugar cane, waste timber and biomass, but not from corn.

What is the octane rating of premium gas in USA? Here in Oz, regular (no ethanol) is 91 and premium is 97.

Your problem is most likely ethanol. I have had to service my weed whacker and pressure washer. Ethanol will gunk up the carb jet in as little as 30 days. Always run all fuel our of the carb when done with the engine, and empty the fuel tank for winter storage. My solution is to start every small engine I have every 3rd week all year long.

Yes! I have been having more problems than usual with the fuel used in my lawn and garden tools. I let the fuel sit in the machines for long periods and the things won't start. I have to empty the fuel, replace hoses before it will start on fresh fuel. I never thought about it, but it sounds like ethanol is the culprit.

If you let gas set over the winter it get's like a plaque which will also damage your engine. I've seen the same thing when I was a teenager when my father and I worked on my grandfathers tractor. This was in the late 80's it was a John Deere and it had sat in his shed after he past away for about two seasons. It had a full tank of gas. We ended up replacing fuel lines, gaskets, and the fuel filter.

I still have it today at my house in fact this Friday since it's a Holiday I'll be tuning up all my lawn equipment and getting ready to do battle for another season.

It will be your Ethanol blended fuel that is the culprit.

Here in the busted arse state of Oz the previous state government mandated (without a mandate) E10 unleaded to be forced into distribution. As a result all petrol powered tools (2/4stroke) and anybody with a boat in/outboard and anybody who drives a car older than 2 years old have to use premium fuel.

The ethanol does 3 bad things (mainly);

1 it doesn't store for more than 6 weeks before it becomes useless for more than lighting fires as the ethanol separates out and wont remix even if you shake it.

2 Its hygroscopic, so it will carry moisture through your fuel system if it is stored for any length of time or the service station has water problems in their tanks. A real killer in small engines because of the microscopic size of the jets.

3 It will attack any fuel line, hose, ORing, grommet, diaphragm that's not been formulated to be resistant to the ethanol. A lot of the fuel systems for power equipment is of the lowest cost material.

My local mower repair professional has been going off about it for ages. Yes it makes him money but he's old school and hates to see equipment come in damaged this way. It can make a right mess of otherwise good equipment.

So yes your better off long term using 95/98 ron unleaded as long as it too isn't adulterated with ethanol..

Thanks for the responses guys.

Is the separation of alcohol and gasoline visible, like gas and water? If so, I'll start pouring my gasoline into clear soda bottles, and just pour the gas off the top into my lawn equipment.

It would also be interesting to see if the percentage is actually running at 10%.

Yes it is "visible, but here's the kicker. The residual "petrol" is not usable as a motor fuel as such, the RON value is too low. When it does separate it's worse than "stale" fuel that we're used to.

Even though I don't buy the E10 fuel, I now throw any 2 stroke mix fuel I have left over from the weekends yard work into the "Stealth" Volvo (which is my daily commute car) as even standard unleaded and 95/98 premium doesn't store as well as it used to.

I'm sort of hoping that having had a regime change here in the busted arse state that they will repeal the legislation to enforce the changeover to E10 instead of Standard Unleaded. Hey they're talking about ripping out cash cow speed cameras so it could happen . I note Germany is now doing the same thing about E10 fuel or at least they're contemplating it.

I should say that New South Wales is the only state in Oz that has E10 as a mandated fuel. It does cause some confusion for interstate folks.

My biggest concern of course is whether I'm actually getting un adulterated 95/98 fuel or has someone done an oops and dropped some E10 in that tank too.

About 5 years ago we had big problems with toulene adulteration in fuel tanks. Certain unscrupulous service station owners were "topping up" their tanks with toulene to make extra profit at the expense of their customers. This was before E10, and as there weren't any controls on the "blend' some people wound up with big bills repairing damaged motors. That's how they were eventualy caught. Oh and the government not getting it's expected taxes as the duty on toulene isn't as much as petrol(gas).

Wonderful news.

Next question. Is there any evidence that adding alcohol to fuel is doing any actual good, anywhere?

I haven't heard one positive thing about this yet. I certainly haven't personally experienced anything positive.

Here's a good reason: We don't have to add dry gas to our fuel tanks in the winter to prevent water accumulating in the low spots of the fuel lines and freezing.

Oh, never mind. That was only a problem with carbureted engines using those old low pressure diaphragm pumps on the side of the engine block.

Premium in your yard tools is a waste of money. All the grades will be blended with ethanol if it's required in your area.

As for alcohol causing more problems with gunk build-up, I haven't seen it. I leave fuel in the carbs of weed whackers, hedge trimmers, and chain saws that I might use once a year. I believe the oil in 2-stroke pre-mix helps prevent those kind of problems. I've never had a problem starting them after months of neglect. We have a bunch of 4-stroke dirt bikes for the kids. I just drain the float bowls at the end of the season. No problems there either.

Any gasoline, left to its devices turns into nasty varnish, ethanol or not. I'm afraid there are an awful lot of urban legends floating around regarding this and not much in the way of scientific studies.

Not to say that I like the ethanol, it reduces power and gas mileage as well as driving up food prices.

If you use premium gas not regular or mid grade as the mid and regular is allowed to have as much as 10% ethanol where premium is only allowed 1% by regulations. The problem comes from the gas and ethanol separating if you have ever used ethanol as fuel you must use twice as much as gasoline. If you want to see how much ethanol is in the fuel you are buying you need a bottle that has graduation marks such as the bottles that are used to measure the oil for two cycle oil. What you will do is add 10 units of plain water and then add 100 units of gasoline close the bottle and shake throughly then set the bottle down and let the liquid separate and then see where the separation line is and that will tell you the percentage of ethanol as the ethanol will bond with the water and separate from the gasoline leaving a gas with 75 to 80 octane rating as the ethanol is used as a octane booster. The seals and rubber gaskets in small engines are made from buna-n rubber and ethanol will draw the oils out of the rubber and they will lose there sealing capabilities. Ethanol will draw moisture out of the air at the rate of 100 gallons of ethanol will draw 1 gallon of water from the atmosphere in a 24 hour period.

Gas distributors do not add ethanol until it is loaded in the truck for delivery because it can separate by just sitting in 2 to 2 1/2 weeks. Make sure that you buy your gas from a dealer that does enough business to keep the gas delivered in fairly short order. You can take a glass jar and put some gas in and just set it on a shelf and within a few weeks you will see it separate.

I have taken all types of fuel stabilizers and mixed them with gasoline and then let them set to see if there was any difference in the stability of the blend and have found that NONE of the stabilizers actually made anything more than a few hours difference. Hope this helps you understand the problems that ethanol blended gas will cause in small engines of lawn equipment. On the flex fuel vehicles your mileage will drop drastically hen you are using E85 blend and actually cost you more to operate the vehicle because of the higher fuel use rate.

I will disagree with almost everything you said:

If the EPA requires oxygenated fuels in your area, all the grades will be blended at 5-10%. In the great state of Texas, the EPA may not REQUIRE ethanol blends in the more rural areas but refiners might add it to the 87 and mid-grade as a cost savings measure.

Gasoline and ethanol will not separate until you contaminate it with water.

You do not have to use twice as much ethanol as gasoline. Ethanol has 34% less energy than gasoline by volume. That would make 100% ethanol fuel 1.5x the gasoline rate.

The shelf life of ethanol blended fuels is easily measured in many months not a few weeks. In fact, I've used blended fuels years after it's sat in the fuel tank of a car not used.

There are a lot of myths and partial truths thrown around primarily by folks who seek to profit from a climate of unfounded fears. There are gas additives, testers, and all manner of things catering to those who want to fear it.

That 100 gallons of ethanal will draw 1 gallon of water from the atmosphere in 24 hours is simply hyperbole and fear mongering. At what relative humidity level? Surface area exposed? Who leaves bathtubs full of gasoline just lying around? I usually put my gas cap back on when I'm done.

To be sure, there are some issues with ethanol blended fuels. Fiberglass fuel tanks in boats do not fare well with ethanol. Some much, much older engines may have problems with gaskets and seals. How old does it need to be? I'm not sure but I run it in my 1961 Model 263 Snowbird snowblower, my 1986 Honda VF500F Interceptor, etc. No problems. I don't even run the carb dry on my 1992 Wellcraft with a carbureted Mercruiser 4.3L V-6. Starts up the following May like I used it last weekend after it has sat for seven months !! No Stabil, no SeaFoam, nothing added!!! Fortunately, I have a polyethylene tank, not fiberglass with polyester resins.

Fuel mileage drops are nominal. When I ran E85 in my '02 Suburban pulling an 8,000 lb trailer, I lost about 25% of my range on a fuel tank. Mileage went from about 10 MPG to 7 and some change. On the E10 fuels, figure on losing about 5-8% of your mileage.

Believe me, I do not like ethanol in my fuels either, but I won't run around spreading urban legends that are just not true or applicable in the context of normal fuel usage.

I know they've been using ethanol for years now and it seems like the problems are getting worse as time goes on.

Now I'm starting to think, that while the mix itself may cause some problems, the quality of the stuff that's being delivered to the stations by the distributors is probably the main culprit.

Like most people, I look for the cheapest gas around, which is usually some convenience store that sells generic gas. There's no telling the quality or length of time it's been sitting around before it gets delivered to the station, which our cars can tolerate, but our small engines can't.

That would lend some credence to the urban legends, and I know for a fact that I'm having more problems than usual. Maybe it's due to a higher incidence of old or fouled gas being delivered to the stations.

there are good points & bad points to using the cheapest possible gas

the bad point is possible lower quality

good point is because it's cheap, the turnover is much quicker, premium tends to hang around a lot longer

I don't know how it works in your area. In this area all the different brands share the same pipe lines, the difference [minor] is the additive package

Chances are if problems are widespread, the refinery blew a bad load down the pipeline or the ethanol [additive] distillery put some out with a problem & spread the joy....

Yeah, come to think of it, all of our gas for this region comes through the same pipe lines too.

If that one link above is correct, that there is a 10% fudge factor in the allowable ethanol, that could explain a lot. They could sell it as 10%, but be allowed to have up to 20%.

All I know is that something's up. I've been using small engines for my entire life and recently, even machines with new plugs and gas that's maybe 2 weeks old, are requiring a shot of starting fluid to get them to fire up.

requiring a shot of starting fluid to get them to fire up.

Another common theme my guy mentioned to me - you're now probably due for a carb rebuild....he said that's how you know you have degradation....said it only works for awhile & then na-da....amazing...

Great!

I'm still waiting for the good news. Unfortunately, the ethanol experts/producers are probably too busy counting money to bothered with a little site like CR4.

"Brave Sir Robin", I can assure you that you are in fact wrong. The above poster is correct about premium lasting longer. E85 or Ethanol requires a much richer mixture to burn and thus you will consume much more of it. This reduces your MPG by a decent amount. Look online at carbs for gas and carbs for alcohol. The jet sizes are much larger for ethanol. Any drag racer can tell you that.

Most of the stabilizer products are not much different than octane boosters and premium fuel has the same results. The gas companies have a choice as to the oxygenator they use in the gas. Ethanol is the cheaper alternative since MTBE was banned. It also serves as an octane booster for the lower grades allowing them to use lower octane base fuels. When the ethanol separates you are left with the lower octane base fuel that is worse than the non-ethanol type base fuel.

I have seen these results first hand so try to do some research before you shoot down a post.

Where's your research??

If you actually read my post you would see that I clearly stated that you lose mileage.

How can you assert that I am wrong? Ethanol is miscible in gasoline. It also happens to bond with water. I grew up in New England and I'm old enough to remember the sales of dry gas in the winter to get rid of accumulated water in your gas tank. Dry gas was pure ethanol.

Premium doesn't last longer. That's urban legend. I can't tell you the number of mistruths and lore regarding higher octane fuels. But you know what? The oil companies won't do anything to discourage you from buying it.

The other point is, the ethanol does not separate from the gasoline until it is contaminated with water. Why won't you folks get this through your collective heads?

Who goes around deliberately exposing their fuels to water or excessive humidity???

My research is personal expirence....

I did miss read your post. I thought that you said Ethanol would increase MPG, sorry.

Yes, it only separates when it absorbs water. I can say for sure that at least for the MTBE fuels, premium does last longer than regular. When storing gas for the winter I always found the can with premium fuel would never foul but the regular would. There are actual reasons for this that I wont go into but it is not an urban legend.

Benefiting from using premium is a different story. Some small engines do and some don't. It depends. 2 stokes can benefit from premium since the premix oil lowers the octane rating. The compression ratio is not fixed and will change with the RPM. At higher RPM, less air/fuel charge leaks out the exhaust port during compression. Under load they can detonate and premium is a good idea.

Premium will never hurt and some cars must use a certain grade. Remember that most small engines are flat tops and do not have very efficient combustion chamber designs and they are prone to hot spots when carbon accumulates. This is why it can be a good idea to use premium even in small engines. It is not much of an issue when they are new.

GA............and you've got it backed up with credible evidence. Thanks.

The ethanol is to increase the oxygen, for better burn & less emissions

make sure your gas cans seal tightly or it will suck up water, especially in your area since the humidity is often high

use good 2stroke oil I've used Yamalube [castrol] for years & never had any problems in bikes or power equipment. Any quality oil will have stabilizers already... Stabil is mostly Napatha

there's no reason to use high octane gas, unless you have high compression motors

It's all the Ethanol (CORN) being pressed by guess who, (Monsanto), you didn't hear that from me though. (I'm on their bad list).

Last year I was speaking to my buddy who has been in the lawn mower, tractor business for 60 years selling all kinds of farm products. After listening to him Ralf off for 20 mins on the Ethanol issue I stopped listening. Other than the all of the PDF files he was getting from all the MFG's of all the equipment he sells. Ethanol is going to kill all our equipment and now Monsanto, There I said it, is pushing the Government to go 85/15 Ethanol. This will destroy all tractors in the fields today if they are given the approval. This goes way beyond just our lawn mowers and weed whackers. This is a fight that We need to take up with Congress. Each and every one of us need to support our local farmer. If his Equipment dies due to Monsanto, we are doomed to GMO foods from Monsanto indefinitely. Way more than Gas and Ethanol.

My father taught me to always run a two stroke carby dry and empty the tank after use.

that may help with seals and the hoses .....

Use Nitro, Nitrmethalene.

I used 3 - 5 table spoons per 5 gallons, on my 71-750 Honda motorcycle, required 96 octane.

source,

http://klotznitromethane.com/

Can also be obtained at model R/C shops, (cars, airplane). Automotive shops carry it. Or you know any one racing a top fuel dragster?

Note don't use Blend, may contain catoror oil / parifin.

"Fuel mileage drops are nominal. When I ran E85 in my '02 Suburban pulling an 8,000 lb trailer, I lost about 25% of my range on a fuel tank. Mileage went from about 10 MPG to 7 and some change. On the E10 fuels, figure on losing about 5-8% of your mileage."

Here's a scenario and then a question.

I drive 200 miles in a car that gets 20 miles/gallon on true gasoline. I use 10 gallons.

I drive the same 200 miles in the same car using ethanol-diluted gasoline. Mileage is 10% less, 18 mpg. (Many reports and personal experimentation give this as an approximate value.) On this trip I use 11.1 gallons of fuel. Round that off to 11 gallons.

Now: that's the SAME 10 gallons of gasoline (close enough) PLUS an extra gallon of ethanol.

The same process was used to create the 10 gallons of gasoline in each case. Some extra process was required to produce the gallon of ethanol I burned. I have still burned the 10 gallons of gasoline and now I have an added burn of a gallon of ethanol.

Now the question: does adding ethanol to the gasoline supply really have a positive effect on emissions or dependency on foreign oil supplies!

Ethonal!

Find online, your cars PCM driving cycle information. Manufactors web page might have it. To dial in optimal fuel economy, might take many drive cycles.

The drive cycle information should be in owner manauls, but it never is. Don't know why.

Bought 2007 chevy HHR, 2.2 4 cyclinder engine. Got 24 mpg at first. Found drive cycle information. Took 15 cycles, 3 weeks of driving to and from work. Now I get 30 to 31 mpg.

The drive cycles will very on different cars.

Everyone beat me to it, but yep, Ethanol or good old "corn likker" is the culprit.

The problem is the alchohol in the gas. Small engines simply are not designed to run on alchohol. You'll probably have the same problem with premium. I don't know the answer to the problem, but if you find one, let the rest of us know.

Here's a list of ethanol free gas stations in the U.S. by state. http://pure-gas.org/

Ummmm . . . these folks are trying to sell your THEIR stuff.

Caveat emptor.

More:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/ns/business-consumer_news/

Wow, even NPR! http://www.powerequipmenttrade.com/npr-ethanol-kills-small-engines/

More bad: http://jalopnik.com/#!5043482/ethanol-in-gasoline-reportedly-wreaking-havoc-on-small-engines

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2011/02/ethanol_problems_expected_to_i.html

GA Some more of the info for Brave Sir Robin to try to refute. In Texas and several other states premium gas can contain no more than 1% ethanol but if you are going to get a can of premium for your small engines you should pump the 1st gallon in your car tank if the pump only has a single hose for all blends are you may be get 10% fuel from the hose first. Gas stations are using a different rubber hose on pumps because of the ethanol.

Until around 1990 ethanol was considered a poor blend for automotive fuel as it would not cause any savings in gasoline usage nd the the government started pushing ethanol blended fuels and you started seeing favorable reports only they had almost no peer approval of their finding and that started all of the controversy on ethanol.

This is a hoot! http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/environment/en/industry/standards/industrial_air_emissions/ethanol_gasoline/STDPROD_077606.html

Consult owners manual............it should be alright.............in everything.

How about a small airplane?...................NO WAY!!!!!!

Av gas doesn't have ethanol & still has lead in it most places

Mtbe is far worse as an oxygenate, as it has a nasty habit of persisting in the watersupply

{no there isn't any gas in california without oxygenate}

even without the blenders credit, ethanol is going to be used. Whether or not it's cheap is determined by the price of corn. the yield of corn per acre keeps growing

It's not quite correct that ethanol removes corn from the food supply, the brewers waste is prime feed for livestock

The resident expert TCMtech said the ethanol reduces volume somewhere around 20% of the total on a different thread...

the small engine producers also have a bit of responsibility, ethanol blends have been common for decades, they are able to make parts that are compatible with ethanol, spare parts is a lucrative business...

Selling spare parts is indeed big bucks.

At the same time, (I mentioned this a month or so ago), the manufacturers are withholding the critical information needed to do engine/carb rebuilds...........i.e. ring spacing, torque values, valve clearances, carb adjustments, etc.

This information is becoming only available to authorized factory service centers, which is where we are supposed to take our machines when they stop working. The labor rate at the repair place near me is $80 an hour, plus parts, which are marked up.

As usual, some people are getting rich from this scenario, and we, the end users, end up getting screwed.

For the environmentalists out there, I ran into another article on one of my web searches on this topic that discussed the amount of water required to produce ethanol. It was about 4 gallons of water to 1 gallon of ethanol. Another unreported side effect of ethanol production, is that underground aquifers are being depleted.

"Why is ethanol used in fuels?

...On a lifecycle-basis, compared to gasoline, ethanol reduces greenhouse gas emissions that contribute to global warming". Citation please?

"What will the impact of the regulation be on gasoline prices?

...Consumers may initially experience an increase in gasoline prices at the pump of 1 o 2 cents per litre as a result of initial compliance investments made by industry. However, over the long term, ethanol can help stabilize prices and ensure security of supply". Citation please?

"Is my engine compatible with ethanol-blended gasoline?

...some older vehicles (pre-1980) may require additional maintenance or modification when fuelled with ethanol-blended gasoline...check their owners' manuals to obtain definitive information regarding the use of ethanol-blended gasoline". So was ethanol introduced 'pre-1980' ?

"Can ethanol-blended gasoline be used in small engines such as lawn mowers, chain saws and leaf-blowers?

...individuals with concerns are encouraged to check their owners' manuals to obtain definitive information regarding the use of ethanol-blended gasolines with their small engines." L-O-L! ! !

"Can ethanol-blended gasoline be used in small aircraft engines?

Ethanol-blended gasoline should not be used in small aircraft engines. Most small aircraft engines manufactured in North America are designed to run on aviation gasoline (avgas), which has a much higher octane rating than automotive gasoline While some of these engines can be modified to run on regular automotive gasoline, owners/operators of small aircraft are advised that system components (e.g. gaskets, seals). Owners/operators who use regular ethanol-blended gasoline should not be used in their aircraft, as ethanol can degrade some rubber and elastomeric fuel automotive gasoline in their aircraft are encouraged to check with their fuel supplier to ensure that their gasoline does not contain ethanol." Sorta' says it best!

"BOATS

What steps should I take if my boat is not in use?

It is best to maintain a full tank of fuel when the engine is not in use. If storing a boat for an extended period of two months or more, completely remove all fuel from the tank. A partially full tank is not recommended because condensation can occur in the space above the fuel." So let me know if I have this correct; I'm both "to maintain a full tank of fuel when the engine is not in use. If storing a boat for an extended period of two months or more, completely remove all fuel from the tank." Do I understand you correctly?

Fool me once; shame on you; Fool me twice; shame on me! (If you get my drift).

I could while away the hours
Conferring with the flowers
Consulting with the rain.
And my head I'd be a-scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain.

Q: So what part of 'FOOL' don't you WE understand? The 'F', or the 'OOL' ?

As 'they' used to say, in radio, back in the forties, "Tune in tomorrow for the next episode of. . .

'Too Soon We Grow Oldt, Too Soon We Grow Shmardt'

Great replies from all!

Suggestion; link this thread into this one: Great Do You Want Ethanol-Free Gasoline? Posted March 25, 2011 8:30 AM by CarDomain.

Thought you might like this site.

http://www.ethanoltoday.com

Thanks for all of the responses and links everybody. It's been interesting. Here's one more good one: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050329132436.htm

While I think the problems with my lawn equipment may not be over, after reading all of the links, and others that I've searched out, I've reached the conclusion, (in my mind), that we should move away from ethanol, and concentrate on biodiesel production. It sounds a lot more viable.

After all of the reading, I also believe that the US government, as well as governments around the world, through massive lobbying campaigns, were duped into adopting and spending billions of dollars on, what amounts to nothing more than another massive, (and failed), dare I say, over unity scheme.

They are idiots. What this has accomplished, as far as I can tell, is to make certain groups, individuals and companies, lots and lots of money, with no discernible benefit to the planet or the public.

BTW, as I write this, the news is on the television in the background. They are predicting that our junk ethanol/gas blend could hit $6 US per gallon by summer.

I just came up with a funny hypothetical situation.

Suppose we had never heard of ethanol mixes in gasoline.

A farmer starts a thread on CR4.........He's got an acre of land and a tractor. His idea is to use his tractor, (burning conventional fuel), to plow, till, plant, fertilize and harvest an acre of corn. After harvest, his plan is to make the corn into mash and distill it into alcohol. After that, use the resulting alcohol in his family car, mixed with the gas at 10-15%, to save his family money, help clean up the atmosphere and reduce his dependence on gasoline.

We all know that lyn would be the first to respond.

How do you suppose the CR4 community would respond to this thread?

He'd be laughed off the forum of course!

The farmer would have the last laugh though. His final post would say, "Oh, I almost forgot. If I grow the corn for feed, I can sell it for $5 a bushel. Two well dressed men from the government came out to the house and told me that if I make it into alcohol, I'll get $9 a bushel, and they'll write me a check for the difference".

I might go see this tomorrow.

I'm kind of late getting here... sorry. I have seen a couple of references to "our cars" being able to handle this. But I can't help wondering (and that's why I'm asking), what about older cars. I'm driving a '94 vehicle. Do you guys think it would be wise for owners of older cars to use higher octane fuel? And if so, how much higher? Could it cause "knocking?"

I know this started off as a topic about small engines being affected by ethanol based gas, but there may be others, like me, wondering the same thing about older cars.

You drive a "94? I wouldn't consider that an "older" car. I drive a 1977 Chevy or a 1968 Chevy pickup. So far, both run ok on the 10 per cent ethanol. I'm sure it's eating at the gaskets, etc. in the truck, but so far, I've had no noticable problems.

O.K. Well, you've certainly got older cars than me, although my other one is an '85 Volvo station wagon that has seen better days.

We may have been O.K. up 'til now, but from the discussion here, the 15% might start causing problems. I may think about alternating between regular and premium as a precaution and/or delay tactic.

I've got an 86 GMC truck with a 454 big block. I have to use the mid grade, at least. Let's put it this way, it runs alright, but it doesn't purr. I'm sure it would be happier without the alcohol.

Having personally experienced thousands of dollars worth of equipment damage because of ethanol in gasoline, I avoid it whenever possible. I refer to a web based list of ethanol free gas stations in the US and Canada on this site.

http://pure-gas.org

Thanks Ace!!!!

A blogger had put that site up about a month ago, and the closest station was about 35 miles from me.

I just checked it again on your link and now there's one about 4 miles from me!!!!!

Jimminy Cricket...........I just about wet my pants........it feels like freaking Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YAHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A quick update: I went to the station near me today and bought some unadulterated premium at $4.99 a gallon.

I spent about 15 minutes talking to the owner. Apparently, (at least from his suppliers), regular and mid grade are unavailable without ethanol......only premium.

With the relatively few things that I own that really seem to hate ethanol, the premium price is worth it. In the long run it will be far cheaper than endless repairs.

Although I suspect that our highly intelligent government will probably put a stop to this as well, at some point.

If anyone has found, or knows of anywhere that has real data that shows the overall benefits of ethanol, to the individual, or to society, I would really be interested in reading it.

Thanks for all of your replies.

Did you get your answer after all these discussions and opinions or still wondering as to what happened to your small tools?

Regards;

Nadeem

After reading through all of the posts and links, my suspicions have been confirmed..........................ethanol is the culprit.

That said, and in Sir Robins defense, I believe these machines will burn ethanol polluted gasoline. The problems arise when this gasoline is stored inside the machines.

I believe that in as little as 2 weeks this gasoline begins to break down creating starting/running problems with these machines. I also believe that ethanol is responsible for breaking down the seals, gaskets, etc. within these machines.

In the future, if I have no choice but ethanol polluted gasoline for these machines, I will run them completely out of fuel before storing them.........every time. I think that this practice would greatly extend the longevity of these tools. That, combined with buying small amounts of fresh gasoline, rather than storing a 5 gallon can for months, should help immensely.

You are right.

My mechanic told me (Small tools mechanic) few years ago that use the machine and when you are at the end of the season, put some gas in it and stabilizer and run the machine till it runs out and then store it. I was on the slope and in Anchorage Alaska and machines were not used as wife had some one to kep the lawn neat and clean. So after two years when I came down and used the tools, none would start up. I had to have all serviced by the mechanic and it cost me about 250 dollars. The carburators were full of white powder. Next time I went to Shreveport, Louisiana for 21 months, I made sure they all had no gas. I ran them dry. So next season when I tried to use them, they all started up nice even my troublesome Troy- built tiller also strated up after few tries.

Yes, the ethanol is the culprit. Some one in the thread said that the ethanol should not be produced by corn but sugarcane and in this case the sugar would become more expensive and corn would be cheaper. I do not know whether he was just jesting or serious. Any way, thanks for opening up such a topic that we all shall benefit from.

Regards;

Nadeem

I just bought some of this at Home Depot. .98¢ to treat 5 gallons. I haven't tried it yet..........we'll see.

Website:http://www.b3cfuelsolutions.com/html/ethanol_shield.html

It must be a really small mechanic to fit in that bottle.

You know what I'm wondering?

If this stuff works, I'm wondering, if the government can mandate that ethanol be added to our gasoline and wrecks our stuff, why can't they mandate these chemicals be added also.............to all of the gasoline? Driers, stabilizers, etc.

Once again, I feel like I'm getting screwed here somehow. Guess I'd better shut up before it turns into a rant session.

In looking at their website I wonder why they don't show the actual ASTM reports instead of just a synopsis by the Chief Business Development Officer. I would much rather see the actual test reports.

CODE: Byronds Fuel 55% Nitro - 6% oil 13 to 15 dollars a quart. Couple table spoons for 5 gallons. Used it for years, 1971-750 Honda Motorcycle, 1957 chevy pick up, 327 ci V8, 1984 MTD 12 hp lawn mower.

Thanks. Where do I get it?....................I guess I could google it, but I don't recall ever seeing it before.

I am not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Brazil has been making ethanol since I believe the 70's. Their "blend" is around 25% for most normal cars.

They have also some makes of cars that run on 100% ethanol.......

There is basically no reason as to why the mighty car makers (and small engine manufacturers as well) cannot get the engines to run without problems on E15 for example as there is a long history already there.....or are all the clever guys living in Brazil?

Here is a good link:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

or are all the clever guys living in Brazil?

It depends on who you ask.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070208-ethanol.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/the-big-green-fuel-lie-438937.html

Interesting and maybe valid the links you posted, but I was only addressing the problems that many people seem to be having with engines of various types when using mixed ethanol/Petrol based fuels.......

Nothing more, nothing less was intended.......

E10 is hated here, but as I drive diesel, it hardly affects me, my daughter's old petrol Audi just runs on it with no problems.....

Yeah. I'm getting the feeling that the bad running small engines may be due more to water absorption than anything else.

But Andy it's the government fault

A conspiracy I tell ya...

the small engine manufactures have no responsibility to to actually make products that work with the fuel commonly available

& the oil companies never blow a bad batch down the pipeline

it's the government's fault, especially the current administration

the sky is falling, the sky is falling, the sky is falling

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeehhhhh

LOL!!

Well, there does seem to be a lot of evidence, (from credible sources), that ethanol is very bad on some engines........................it has been mandated by the federal government to be added to our gasoline.......................I am having problems with some of my equipment running, and seen the same problems with lawn equipment that is brand new.

Tell me who is to blame.

The sky isn't falling, but it sure does frustrate the hell out me when the unintended consequences of stupid decisions by ignorant politicians start rolling in, and we're just supposed to live with them. Maybe I'm a nut case.

And no............not this administration..........the last one. I think it was an uninformed decision, based primarily on proving that they cared about the planet, and weren't in the pocket of big oil. But, lo and behold...............look at exactly who's benefiting. They are saving millions in the refining process, and a fat tax subsidy for the blending to boot! Huh, who would of thunk?

& you don't even get mad when I poke you with a stick

Ethanol has been used since the 70's

I've changed my share of rubber that turned into goo from ethanol

the affinity for water is by far the worst part of the whole deal

I agree. I also think the percentage of water varies greatly from one batch to the next by the time it gets to the end user.

If it weren't for the running problem, I could deal with a carb rebuild every couple of years.

You must look on the bright side a little, having large amounts of ethanol will ensue that the water that condenses in some tanks, is passed through the engine, every time it runs. No more advising people on CR4 to add a pint of denatured spirits to the full tank to get rid of any H2O!!!

The only ones with problems are those who do not run their engines often enough to even keep the battery charged.....the same ones that p**s water out of the exhaust pipe every time they go down to the shops or golfing!!!

The biggest problem is that ethanol (on its own) makes great drinks!!! Suitably watered down of course......why waste it in IC engines???? HIC BURP!!!

I wonder if it's still illegal to set up a distillery in my yard.

Rather than corn, I would probably be making my mash out of apples, peaches, pears, etc.

Of course, this would only be for the purpose of doing alcohol fuel experiments.

You don't see this popping up in any government ethanol reports.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_fuel_history.html